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(USA Today)   "Only Congress has the power to lift the debt limit. That means only Congress can clear the way for our government to meet all of its financial obligations." Welp, we're boned   (usatoday.com) divider line 228
    More: Interesting, congresses, debt limit, Medicare payments  
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1111 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Oct 2013 at 10:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-04 09:38:42 AM  
1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.
 
2013-10-04 09:46:22 AM  
I wonder how far the GOP will go with this? How strongly do they believe in their own press releases? Will the republicans force the entire country to suffer just to satisfy the ideological itches of a small faction within their national party organization?
 
2013-10-04 09:54:56 AM  

Weaver95: I wonder how far the GOP will go with this? How strongly do they believe in their own press releases? Will the republicans force the entire country to suffer just to satisfy the ideological itches of a small faction within their national party organization?


You have Cantor claiming that the Dems will cave. You have Rep. Marlin Stutzman saying "We're not going to be disrespected, We have to get something out of this. " . Boehner took tons of heat from the tea partiers after the last confrontation, that he didn't get enough. The GOP 'know' this is their last chance to stopping Obamacare. I'm thinking they see this as the Alamo - fight to the last American.
 
2013-10-04 09:55:13 AM  
IF Congress, which is polling behind a loved ones death, and ass cancer, was on fire, it would be unable to pass the "Oh God we are on fire, pour water on us act".

It would get held up by tea party members who want to slash the water buckets budget first, which would allow them to keep the bucket but with no funding for water.
 
2013-10-04 09:59:02 AM  

vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.


14th doesn't matter. All Obama could do along would be to prioritize spending to service debt first
 
2013-10-04 10:05:58 AM  
Yeah, there's no way that the debt limit isn't going to be raised. No farking way.
 
2013-10-04 10:14:34 AM  

vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.


Or, do nothing, let the GOP split, and let the DNC get a majority in both the Senate and the House.  Then, perhaps enact some actual Liberal policies.
 
2013-10-04 10:18:20 AM  

Lando Lincoln: Yeah, there's no way that the debt limit isn't going to be raised. No farking way.


Unless there is a coup within the GOP.  Why aren't the mainstreamers threatening to primary some of the tea bagger assholes.  Give them a taste of there own medicine.

Also, why run a Democratic candidate at all in a Tea Party district.   Why take votes away from legitimate conservatives.  Even if a Conservative ran as an independent, they would beat the Tea Party candidate if no Democrat was running.   I suggest this as an interim measure until the tea party is marginalized.
 
2013-10-04 10:19:54 AM  
Depressing this morning that the CBS White House correspondent revealed he doesn't understand the most basic facts about the debt ceiling. In a series of posts he culminated with this:

Mark Knoller        ✔ @markknoller

Raising the Debt Limit allows more Government borrowing which increases the National Debt.


I mean, this is just flat out, 100% false. I don't know how else to say it. But we have the MAIN reporter for one of the MAIN news agencies in this country saying this. What the frack?
 
2013-10-04 10:27:08 AM  

mrshowrules: Unless there is a coup within the GOP.  Why aren't the mainstreamers threatening to primary some of the tea bagger assholes.  Give them a taste of there own medicine.


Because the people who elected the tea partiers like them more than they like the GOP.
 
2013-10-04 10:27:15 AM  
Yes, subby. We are indeed truly boned.
 
2013-10-04 10:27:51 AM  
Nah, there won't be a fight over the debt limit. The GOPs corporate masters on Wall Street have given them their marching orders and that is not to fark around this time. Last time cost Wall Street a bundle and they don't want a repeat.

They will posture some, maybe get concession or two from the Democrats and the President, but I don't expect a big fight over this.
 
2013-10-04 10:29:32 AM  

DamnYankees: Depressing this morning that the CBS White House correspondent revealed he doesn't understand the most basic facts about the debt ceiling. In a series of posts he culminated with this:

Mark Knoller        ✔ @markknoller

Raising the Debt Limit allows more Government borrowing which increases the National Debt.

I mean, this is just flat out, 100% false. I don't know how else to say it. But we have the MAIN reporter for one of the MAIN news agencies in this country saying this. What the frack?


Well, there's some cause/effect misrepresentation there, but it's technically correct from a "debt on the books" perspective.  From a "what causes debt" perspective, it's a flagrant lie.
 
2013-10-04 10:30:46 AM  
I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.
 
2013-10-04 10:31:25 AM  

offmymeds: Yes, subby. We are indeed truly boehned.

 
2013-10-04 10:31:27 AM  

ikanreed: Well, there's some cause/effect misrepresentation there, but it's technically correct from a "debt on the books" perspective.  From a "what causes debt" perspective, it's a flagrant lie.


I'm not sure what you mean by "debt on the books". It doesn't change the debt on the books at all. It just changes forces us to change the form of debt from a security to a delinquency, but its still 100% debt on and off the books.
 
2013-10-04 10:31:28 AM  
The debt ceiling is a red herring. The government collects $250 billion a month... enough to pay the $30 billion in interest on the debt, and enough left over for Social Security, Medicare, the armed forces, and a host of other things that Obama gets to choose.
 
2013-10-04 10:31:57 AM  

vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.


14th Amendment:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law [...] shall not be questioned.
The authorization of public debt is specifically enumerated to Congress in Article 1, Section 8:
The Congress shall have power [...] To borrow money on the credit of the United States
This is a distinct and separate power from the spending power.
 
2013-10-04 10:31:57 AM  

Dinki: Weaver95: I wonder how far the GOP will go with this? How strongly do they believe in their own press releases? Will the republicans force the entire country to suffer just to satisfy the ideological itches of a small faction within their national party organization?

You have Cantor claiming that the Dems will cave. You have Rep. Marlin Stutzman saying "We're not going to be disrespected, We have to get something out of this. " . Boehner took tons of heat from the tea partiers after the last confrontation, that he didn't get enough. The GOP 'know' this is their last chance to stopping Obamacare. I'm thinking they see this as the Alamo - fight to the last American.


But if we fight to the last American the only people left will be the *illegals*.

And Obama, of course.

/or something
 
2013-10-04 10:32:04 AM  
I'm sure congress won't let that happen. But if they try to cause an issue, it sounds like Obama has a constitutional ability to just do whatever is necessary.

It also seems the debt limit is unconstitutional if it were tested in court.
 
2013-10-04 10:32:18 AM  
There's some hope that Boehner would come to his senses and violate the Hastert rule for the debt limit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/04/us/politics/debt-limit-impasse.htm l

/SOME hope, anyway
 
2013-10-04 10:32:46 AM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: The debt ceiling is a red herring. The government collects $250 billion a month... enough to pay the $30 billion in interest on the debt, and enough left over for Social Security, Medicare, the armed forces, and a host of other things that Obama gets to choose.


On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?
 
2013-10-04 10:33:39 AM  

DamnYankees: Depressing this morning that the CBS White House correspondent revealed he doesn't understand the most basic facts about the debt ceiling. In a series of posts he culminated with this:

Mark Knoller        ✔ @markknoller

Raising the Debt Limit allows more Government borrowing which increases the National Debt.

I mean, this is just flat out, 100% false. I don't know how else to say it. But we have the MAIN reporter for one of the MAIN news agencies in this country saying this. What the frack?


They've got to be "fair and balanced."  Which also means BSABSVR.
 
2013-10-04 10:34:03 AM  

Funk Brothers: I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.


Can Fark get some kind of age-verification and rudimentary IQ test in order to comment?
 
2013-10-04 10:34:27 AM  
Given the "Tea Party" senators are all very wealthy, and connected to Wall Street somehow, like that hedge fund manager in PA, for instance -- this is all about immunity from congressional insider trading while seriously engineering the economic crisis.
 
2013-10-04 10:34:32 AM  
It really can't be said enough, the Tea Party wants to crash the economy. And they are going to because "moderate" Republicans are too chicken shiat to stand up to them
 
2013-10-04 10:35:05 AM  

vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.


The 14th amendment gambiatchanges nothing.     It's going to create a legal shiat storm and likely impeachment processes, and regardless of how it pans out in the long run in the Courts (and given the track record of the Roberts Court and the conservative nature of many of the high circuit courts, I would suggest not well), just the dog and pony process alone would cause serious downgrades to the credit worthiness of American debt just as a default would.    It's like telling your creditors "Hey guys, here's my payment at the last minute.  I had to win it at the blackjack table.   Hey, can I have a credit raise?  I'm good for it, I swear.  Didn't I make my payment on time?"
 
2013-10-04 10:36:25 AM  

BitwiseShift: Given the "Tea Party" senators are all very wealthy, and connected to Wall Street somehow, like that hedge fund manager in PA, for instance -- this is all about immunity from congressional insider trading while seriously engineering the economic crisis.


I remember the gop was NOT happy when Obama mentioned the insider trading thing in a state of the union speech.
 
2013-10-04 10:36:34 AM  

DamnYankees: Kangaroo_Ralph: The debt ceiling is a red herring. The government collects $250 billion a month... enough to pay the $30 billion in interest on the debt, and enough left over for Social Security, Medicare, the armed forces, and a host of other things that Obama gets to choose.

On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?


I think this is a *grand* idea - he gets to choose what gets funded? Sorry, Newport News, we're going to scrub the Ford class carriers, anf it looks like we don't need the F-35 after all...
 
2013-10-04 10:37:15 AM  
Let's say, come October 17th, Obama issues an Executive Order instructing the Treasury to continue normal debt issue operations in observance of Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.  Let's say that after that Congress impeaches Obama and Jack Lew, and they get sent to Super Jail.  Could Congress ever get the horse back in the barn?
 
2013-10-04 10:37:37 AM  

Mjeck: Funk Brothers: I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.

Can Fark get some kind of age-verification and rudimentary IQ test in order to comment?


Cool. Then do it with voters.
 
2013-10-04 10:38:17 AM  

DamnYankees: On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?


On what legal basis does Obama not get to choose what to pay?
 
2013-10-04 10:39:22 AM  

Fantasta Potamus: I'm sure congress won't let that happen. But if they try to cause an issue, it sounds like Obama has a constitutional ability to just do whatever is necessary.

It also seems the debt limit is unconstitutional if it were tested in court.


They should have challenged the constitutionality of the debt ceiling immediately after the last debt ceiling crisis. But now would be a good time. Even this court would be hard-pressed to uphold it.
 
2013-10-04 10:39:59 AM  

slykens1: DamnYankees: On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama not get to choose what to pay?


On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what not to pay?
 
2013-10-04 10:40:36 AM  

InmanRoshi: The 14th amendment gambiatchanges nothing. It's going to create a legal shiat storm and likely impeachment processes, and regardless of how it pans out in the long run in the Courts (and given the track record of the Roberts Court and the conservative nature of many of the high circuit courts, I would suggest not well), just the dog and pony process alone would cause serious downgrades to the credit worthiness of American debt just as a default would. It's like telling your creditors "Hey guys, here's my payment at the last minute. I had to win it at the blackjack table. Hey, can I have a credit raise? I'm good for it, I swear. Didn't I make my payment on time?"


It's the difference between cleanly flying off the cliff, and managing to slide down hitting every rock in the way.

Which is to say, not much of one.
 
2013-10-04 10:40:57 AM  

vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.


I was hoping for one of those, but Obama/Lew say that they won't do either. So we *are* boned.
 
2013-10-04 10:41:00 AM  
Defund all of the new agencies and departments Obama has created and you don't need to raise the debt limit. Our problem is a spending problem.
 
2013-10-04 10:41:09 AM  

Mjeck: Can Fark get some kind of age-verification and rudimentary IQ test in order to comment?


But then who would moderate?
 
2013-10-04 10:41:16 AM  

Funk Brothers: I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.



yeah, smart thinking.
I'm sure they'll just shuffle off to a quiet corner somewhere without a fuss.

so uh? what level of education did you manage to reach son?
 
2013-10-04 10:41:45 AM  

Cletus C.: slykens1: DamnYankees: On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama not get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what not to pay?


On what legal basis does Obama get to pay what to not choose?
 
2013-10-04 10:42:15 AM  

Cletus C.: slykens1: DamnYankees: On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama not get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what not to pay?


Either way, Lew says Treasury lacks the logistical capability to choose. There are literally 100 million payments per month.
 
2013-10-04 10:42:36 AM  

stratagos: DamnYankees: Kangaroo_Ralph: The debt ceiling is a red herring. The government collects $250 billion a month... enough to pay the $30 billion in interest on the debt, and enough left over for Social Security, Medicare, the armed forces, and a host of other things that Obama gets to choose.

On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?

I think this is a *grand* idea - he gets to choose what gets funded? Sorry, Newport News, we're going to scrub the Ford class carriers, anf it looks like we don't need the F-35 after all...


Hopefully subsidies to big oil, with their record-breaking profits quarter-after-quarter, will be the first expenditures on the chopping block.
 
2013-10-04 10:43:29 AM  

happydude45: Defund all of the new agencies and departments Obama has created and you don't need to raise the debt limit. Our problem is a spending problem.


unexplained bacon: Funk Brothers: I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.


yeah, smart thinking.
I'm sure they'll just shuffle off to a quiet corner somewhere without a fuss.

so uh? what level of education did you manage to reach son?


right, sure Obama shouldn't be allowed to do anything...after all most likely you didn't vote for him anyway.

sure he won the election but it doesn't count.
 
2013-10-04 10:43:37 AM  

slykens1: DamnYankees: On what legal basis does Obama get to choose what to pay?

On what legal basis does Obama not get to choose what to pay?


Congress passes laws saying he needs to pay A, B and C. Then they only give him enough money to pay 2 of the 3. Which law should he ignore, the first or the second? On what basis? And if for some reason you think he does need to make the payments in part, what law enables him to choose between A, B and C? Hint: there is no such law.
 
2013-10-04 10:43:47 AM  

InmanRoshi: vernonFL: 1. Invoke 14th amendment.

2. Trillion dollar coin

While the above measures may seem extreme, so is threatening to default on the debt.

The 14th amendment gambiatchanges nothing.     It's going to create a legal shiat storm and likely impeachment processes, and regardless of how it pans out in the long run in the Courts (and given the track record of the Roberts Court and the conservative nature of many of the high circuit courts, I would suggest not well), just the dog and pony process alone would cause serious downgrades to the credit worthiness of American debt just as a default would.    It's like telling your creditors "Hey guys, here's my payment at the last minute.  I had to win it at the blackjack table.   Hey, can I have a credit raise?  I'm good for it, I swear.  Didn't I make my payment on time?"


Admittedly there would be challenges, and nothing that goes to SCOTUS is guaranteed, but the conservatives have a long track record of upholding executive authority.  Furthermore, if Obama waits until the very last second, he can claim he's doing it as a measure of last resort.

Sure the markets take an initial hit, but assuming SCOTUS upholds it (which I believe they would) the markets should rebound very, very quickly.  The precedent it sets ADDS to the stability of the markets and the global economy.  No minority party could hold the country hostage again on the debt ceiling. Obama gets impeached, but Clinton can give him some help on rebuilding a reputation, and truthfully, the vast majority of economists and business leaders would welcome his actions.

The real question is what it does to the Democrats in the midterm elections.  Depending on how rigorous they are about their message and how much crazy misogynist
 talk the Republicans come out with, they might be able to hold GOP senate gains to like 5 seats.
 
2013-10-04 10:44:36 AM  

Funk Brothers: I think it will be business as usual if we default. There's no projection of a recession at all.

We need to cut the deficit to zero, balance the budget, and start paying down the debt. Obamacare needs to be first target. You cannot have an entitlement state when you're in debt. It will be painful, but it's the only solution. Millions of poor people will die because of this, but they will be forgotten. Besides, poor people have their own selfish interests and only graduating high school or dropped out is not right.


Except that you can have an entitlement system with debt. We have had debt forever. The presence of debt is an indicator of nothing at all, unless the burden of that debt is quantitatively measured and found to be ... burdensome. I think we can borrow more at current rates without issue for a while longer.
 
2013-10-04 10:44:55 AM  

Arkanaut: Let's say, come October 17th, Obama issues an Executive Order instructing the Treasury to continue normal debt issue operations in observance of Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.  Let's say that after that Congress impeaches Obama and Jack Lew, and they get sent to Super Jail.  Could Congress ever get the horse back in the barn?


I don't think impeachment would be a worry; if we hit the limit Federal law is contradictory and so they'll have to break *some* law - entitlement, appropriation, tax, or debt ceiling.

The platinum-coin gambit doesn't break any laws, so we'd think they'd be forced to do it. But they say they won't. On the other hand, they'd have to say so or Congress has no pressure to actually fix this.
 
2013-10-04 10:46:00 AM  
try that again...
  

happydude45: Defund all of the new agencies and departments Obama has created and you don't need to raise the debt limit. Our problem is a spending problem.


right, sure Obama shouldn't be allowed to do anything...after all most likely you didn't vote for him anyway.
sure he won the election but it doesn't count.

 
2013-10-04 10:46:30 AM  

happydude45: Defund all of the new agencies and departments Obama has created


Texas.  Of course.
 
2013-10-04 10:47:13 AM  
Default would not happen immediately. If default on the debt actually ever happens, you can just start burning everything.

In the meantime, the debt can be honored at the expense of other things.
 
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