If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Atlantic)   Maybe, just maybe, high school athletics aren't killing academics after all   (theatlantic.com) divider line 81
    More: Interesting, high school sports, University of Arkansas, nominal fee, American high schools, Trinidad and Tobago, standardized test, negative relationship  
•       •       •

6318 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Oct 2013 at 5:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



81 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-10-04 10:19:11 AM  
Its always seemed to me that morons who are good at sports and academics who are not seem to always agree "You can't do both". And that's BS. Something I've discovered is a lot of athletes are damn smart. Frank Zane (The Governator's rival during the '70s) had a BS in Science, a BA in Psychology, taught Mathematics for 15 years and later went on to get a Master's in experimental psychology in the '90s (while still maintaining his physique). Dolph Lungren has 2 degrees in Chemical Engineering including one with top honors. Pau Gasol was aspiring to medical school to work on AIDS research. Emeka Okafor is pretty well known for his academics. Finally, Bruce Lee's studies in 4 universities were often a part of his philosophy of a cumulative mental and physical education.
Its also been my experience that most dedicated athletes are honors students, at least in the gyms I've been in over the last few years. Dedication, time management, general reasoning skills and discipline are the components required for success.
 
2013-10-04 10:22:04 AM  

DarkVader: foo monkey: syrynxx: Massachusetts produces math scores comparable to South Korea and Finland, while Mississippi scores are closer to Trinidad and Tobago. Ripley's thesis about sports falls apart in light of this fact. Schools in Massachusetts provide sports programs while schools in Finland do not. Schools in Mississippi may love football while in Tobago interscholastic sports are nowhere near as prominent.


Well, I'm convinced.  A state with some of the best colleges in the US produces scores similar to countries where parents beat their underperforming children and feed them rotting cabbage or a country where there is nothing the fark to do but look at reindeer and be on the internet or study.

A state where most white people think repealing slavery was a bad idea produces scores similar to a couple of resource-free islands whose surface area is smaller than Ted's Montana Grill holdings.  Even if someone was to fly that far south for vacation, they'd go to Aruba.  What is the main income source for Trinidad and Tobago?  Their GDP is $26 billion per year.  The US is spending half of that doing nothing every day.

Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.

RG3 graduated from college in three years (poly sci) with a 3.7 GPA, won the Heisman Trophy, and is now a starting QB in the NFL.

Try again or move the goalposts.

He didn't say no one can, just that YOU can't.  And I'd say that's true for any YOU on Fark.

There are people who can.  There are maybe 100 of them, in the entire country, including the ones coming up, and the ones who already did.

Meanwhile, we waste billions on high school and college athletics, when it serves an amazingly tiny population.  Let the for-profit business that is the NFL bankroll their own farm leagues, stop wasting public money on it.

If you want to help kids be physically fit, there are far more cost effective ways to do it, and they work a lot better than football.  Have you seen a retired football player?  They're not typically healthy people.


We're talking hs sports, not nfl. And that YOU was my entire private college where the athletes had better avg GPAs than the student body every single year. This was a school with professors who didn't like athletes because they thought the athlete took the spot from someone more deserving.

Keep making shiat up though.
 
2013-10-04 10:35:10 AM  

SmellsLikePoo: From your profile....Proofreader. Musician. Roller derby announcer. A dessert topping, and a floor wax.

I'm sensing a conflict!


blog.jetwolf.com
Nonsense! I'm all things!

Seriously, though, if athletics is as valid as any other high school curriculum aspect, then why do coaches have to teach in another field as well as coach?* Shouldn't teaching these valuable life lessons be as much work as teaching grammar, history, et al if that's the case?

*This may have changed since I attended high school, but this is how I remember it being.
 
2013-10-04 10:36:43 AM  

IamAwake: Babwa Wawa: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

This approach seems much more reliable than references.

This.

Lenny_da_Hog: Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?

That and that.

Something like 10% of the high school can be in high school team athletics - at least it's a much higher percentage than in college, I suppose.  And ya know what - it isn't the 10% that also happens to be most likely to succeed.  They may be slightly more likely, but that's not due to team-building or such; more due to vanity, aggressiveness, and other such qualities which tend to (unfortunately) be rewarded in US corporate culture.


Only if your school is huge. My high school (1400) had 10% participation rate just in the orchestra. Each swim team (not the biggest sport... we only had cuts my senior year) had about 25, so 50/1400 is about 3%. The football team was a lot bigger, as were the baseball and soccer and tennis teams. How would the participation rate need to be as low as 10%? I would guess ours was 50%? Maybe higher.

And you can do both sports and academics. I did two varsity sports (competed at the state level in one), orchestra, and as many AP classes as I was allowed. Why bag on sports?
 
2013-10-04 10:41:55 AM  

maram500: Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?

Choir kicks ass. It builds that team-playing ability just as well as organized sport.

In football, the quarterback is going to get hurt--that's a given. The center and tailback might avoid bodily harm, and the team isn't looked upon as "bad" if one player slips up. At least in a choir, the whole group is penalized if someone is off-key.

/Not a football fan
//Prefer rugby


Does the entire choir get penalized if someone is out of place before you start singing?
 
2013-10-04 10:42:32 AM  

redmid17: maram500: Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?

Choir kicks ass. It builds that team-playing ability just as well as organized sport.

In football, the quarterback is going to get hurt--that's a given. The center and tailback might avoid bodily harm, and the team isn't looked upon as "bad" if one player slips up. At least in a choir, the whole group is penalized if someone is off-key.

/Not a football fan
//Prefer rugby

Does the entire choir get penalized if someone is out of place before you start singing?


5 note penalty. Re-play the first measure.
 
2013-10-04 10:46:14 AM  
Did not read the article but I would posit this, does that mean that we need to spend millions of dollars on facilities or is it just as simple has sending them out to a field to play kickball.

Sports and physical activity are good for you, wasting money on facilities is not.
 
2013-10-04 10:46:43 AM  
images.huffingtonpost.com

Approves

/Obscure?
 
2013-10-04 11:08:46 AM  
syrynxx:
Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I was an athlete in HS, track 440 and 880, did a little time on the cross country team also. I had NO aspirations of progressing beyond that level but was solidly average or a little above depending on the event.

Academically I was far above average. It's about balance. Sure, I was wore the hell out after practice but I still went home and did my homework. If those hours of running in circles had ever interfered with my grades I would have quit on the spot.

Point being, at least at the HS level, you can perform, make practice and maintain your studies. I've done it and seen many teammates do it as well.
 
2013-10-04 11:20:08 AM  
EyeballKid:
Seriously, though, if athletics is as valid as any other high school curriculum aspect, then why do coaches have to teach in another field as well as coach?* Shouldn't teaching these valuable life lessons be as much work as teaching grammar, history, et al if that's the case?

*This may have changed since I attended high school, but this is how I remember it being.


Because coaching a HS sport doesn't take up 40 hours a week.

If a school has a part time history teacher, they only get paid for the time spent teaching.  Same with coaches.

Most schools give the coaches a stipend on top of their teaching salary.  There is generally no requirement that the coach work for the district, but pretty much every school will feed their own before going outside for help.  It is usually the exact same setup for the math team coach, student council adviser, etc.

How big the stipend varies - varies from sport to sport, district to district, etc.  Sports with longer seasons generally get more.  Sports with more students participating may get more, and often get more coaches (i.e. approval for a paid F/S coach or an assistant coach).

Now you are probably wondering about those teams you see with a lot of coaches.  Those are generally done a couple ways:
1)  Pooling sport resources.  Very popular with something like Track where the boys and girls seasons are pretty identical and the coaching is similar.  You join the male and female teams and share coaching duties.  Say both teams are large enough that they get 1 assistant coach each.  The "girls assistant  may be in charge of all the field events while the "boys assistant" is in charge of the all the distance runners.

2)  Pooling personal resources.  This is very common in something like football.  Say you granted a head coach, a F/S coach and one assistant.  Instead of each getting the full stipend, everyone takes a partial one and gives the leftover money to two other guys who come in and help.

3)  Volunteers.  And clearly this is an option, people working for free.  Common for simple tasks like keeping an eye on the kids, or helping setting up.  In my HS track, there was a local guy who was extremely good at PV; he came in once a week to help all our vaulters.  In return, he had access to the school's pit/mat setup.  It was win/win.
 
2013-10-04 11:31:04 AM  

redmid17: maram500: Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?

Choir kicks ass. It builds that team-playing ability just as well as organized sport.

In football, the quarterback is going to get hurt--that's a given. The center and tailback might avoid bodily harm, and the team isn't looked upon as "bad" if one player slips up. At least in a choir, the whole group is penalized if someone is off-key.

/Not a football fan
//Prefer rugby

Does the entire choir get penalized if someone is out of place before you start singing?


Mine did. My HS choir director had a rule: If you're not in place when rehearsal starts, you get to sing one piece (generally a four-minute piece of music) solo in front of the whole choir. And if you knew some of the people who were in choir with me, you would know that that is penalization of the worst degree.

/"Nails on a chalkboard" doesn't even begin to describe it
 
2013-10-04 11:32:15 AM  

bacongood: EyeballKid:
Seriously, though, if athletics is as valid as any other high school curriculum aspect, then why do coaches have to teach in another field as well as coach?* Shouldn't teaching these valuable life lessons be as much work as teaching grammar, history, et al if that's the case?

*This may have changed since I attended high school, but this is how I remember it being.

Because coaching a HS sport doesn't take up 40 hours a week.

If a school has a part time history teacher, they only get paid for the time spent teaching.  Same with coaches.

Most schools give the coaches a stipend on top of their teaching salary.  There is generally no requirement that the coach work for the district, but pretty much every school will feed their own before going outside for help.  It is usually the exact same setup for the math team coach, student council adviser, etc.

How big the stipend varies - varies from sport to sport, district to district, etc.  Sports with longer seasons generally get more.  Sports with more students participating may get more, and often get more coaches (i.e. approval for a paid F/S coach or an assistant coach).

Now you are probably wondering about those teams you see with a lot of coaches.  Those are generally done a couple ways:
1)  Pooling sport resources.  Very popular with something like Track where the boys and girls seasons are pretty identical and the coaching is similar.  You join the male and female teams and share coaching duties.  Say both teams are large enough that they get 1 assistant coach each.  The "girls assistant  may be in charge of all the field events while the "boys assistant" is in charge of the all the distance runners.

2)  Pooling personal resources.  This is very common in something like football.  Say you granted a head coach, a F/S coach and one assistant.  Instead of each getting the full stipend, everyone takes a partial one and gives the leftover money to two other guys who come in and help.

3)  Volunteers.  And ...



Some coaches, in Texas for example, do pull in full time salaries for just coaching.

Where I coach in Virginia, you don't have to be a teacher "in the building" to coach, but you do have to go through the normal hiring process to be badged as a school district employee. Of our Varsity/JV/Freshman staff of 9 coaches, only 4 are teachers.

The stipend ranges. One year I got paid $500. One year I got paid $2000. It usually works out to be about $.37 per hour.
 
2013-10-04 11:34:03 AM  
This article doesn't slander Republicans or Capitalism. How did it get a greenlight?
 
2013-10-04 11:35:33 AM  

EyeballKid: Seriously, though, if athletics is as valid as any other high school curriculum aspect, then why do coaches have to teach in another field as well as coach?* Shouldn't teaching these valuable life lessons be as much work as teaching grammar, history, et al if that's the case?

*This may have changed since I attended high school, but this is how I remember it being.


Unfortunately for serious students, it hasn't changed. I graduated high school in 2005, but I hear from friends' younger siblings that coaches are still academic teachers, with the most popular subject area for football coaches being history. Which means that when students get to the basic history classes in college, they are completely dumbfounded by even the simplest facts. A friend and former professor always took time on the first day of class to bemoan the football coach history teachers and how they're screwing up the students.

One of my brothers went to college primarily to become a high school football coach, and they made him pick something to actually teach (this is Louisiana, by the way). Of course he chose social studies. And I am relieved, in a way, that he dropped out of college.
 
2013-10-04 11:35:48 AM  

SmellsLikePoo: syrynxx: Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.

That's one of the most close minded views I've ever heard.  A diversity of interests will help teach you more than burying yourself in a single subject, and the same applies to multiple disciplines and pursuits outside of academics.

Yes, this means you won't get to watch your favorite tv show every night, but excellence does require some sacrifice.


This. I managed to be the marching band drum major and captain of the tennis team, both of which had the same Fall season, while maintaining a 4.0 GPA. I did my homework on the bus and would have forgotten what my boyfriend looked like if he hadnt been in band with me, but it can be done. I grew up to be the master of time management and getting promoted rapidly at every job I've held while working my way through college. All extra-curricular activities aid student success.
 
2013-10-04 11:45:56 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: This article doesn't slander Republicans or Capitalism. How did it get a greenlight?


www.vanessabyers.net
Oh, you poor widdle victim!!! Who's the bad man who's hurt you so?
 
2013-10-04 11:56:54 AM  

ColTomParker: Some coaches, in Texas for example, do pull in full time salaries for just coaching.


I have never really gotten good data on TX high school football, and there are so many myths about it and no matter what it is probably a giant outlier... so I just don't think it is truly relevant to the conversation.

My info was mainly from IL and MO, where I know a lot of teachers/coaches.  Sounds like VA is pretty similar, though more willing to go off campus.

And I can't tell if you meant to say $37/hour (reasonable based off the time amount the schools probably say coaches use in a season) or really meant $0.37/hour (probably pretty close sometimes for how much time coaches actually do spend and out of pocket costs they incur).
 
2013-10-04 12:20:00 PM  

bacongood: ColTomParker: Some coaches, in Texas for example, do pull in full time salaries for just coaching.

I have never really gotten good data on TX high school football, and there are so many myths about it and no matter what it is probably a giant outlier... so I just don't think it is truly relevant to the conversation.

My info was mainly from IL and MO, where I know a lot of teachers/coaches.  Sounds like VA is pretty similar, though more willing to go off campus.

And I can't tell if you meant to say $37/hour (reasonable based off the time amount the schools probably say coaches use in a season) or really meant $0.37/hour (probably pretty close sometimes for how much time coaches actually do spend and out of pocket costs they incur).


it was 37 cents an hour.

I know coaches in Florida that teach 6 or 7 classes in addition to being a head football coach.

I know of coaches in Texas that coach and fill an admin type role to justify the salary.
 
2013-10-04 12:24:06 PM  

nulluspixiusdemonica: So, institutions bent on retaining athletes have inflated test scores and lower drop-out rates?

Shut the front door!


This.

DarkVader:
Meanwhile, we waste billions on high school and college athletics, when it serves an amazingly tiny population.

And this.
 
2013-10-04 12:37:57 PM  
Maybe, just maybe, high school athletics athletes aren't killing academics after all

Fixed that for you.  I think.
 
2013-10-04 01:05:58 PM  
Is this where all the non-athletes try to convince themselves that it's okay to have been a failure at that because they're totally smart and athletes are dumb and athletics are a waste of time?

News flash: you're not smart, either - you got through school because they don't trim down classes based on intelligence the way they cut people from athletics.

There are a lot of dumb athletes and there are a lot of dumb people. At least the athletes have an incentive to show up to school, and therefore are more likely to be found actually showing up to class at the HS level.
 
2013-10-04 01:11:25 PM  

IAmRight: Is this where all the non-athletes try to convince themselves that it's okay to have been a failure at that because they're totally smart and athletes are dumb and athletics are a waste of time?


No, this is where all the gas station attendants and Wal-Mart greeters validate their wasted youths spent running laps and hitting other people back in the day before they go home, stare at the beat-up jersey they keep around their apartment, and think about what could have been before drinking themselves to sleep.
 
2013-10-04 01:23:14 PM  
Maybe, just maybe athletics need to be secondary to school budgets and are paid for by athletes families, supporters, and boosters instead of other students parents taxes?
 
2013-10-04 01:28:39 PM  
I'll just leave this here:

>> 1. Chicago Cubs outfielder Andre Dawson on being a role model:
>> "I wan' all dem kids to do what I do, to look up to me. I wan' all
>> the kids to copulate me."
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. New Orleans Saint RB George Rogers when asked about the upcoming season:
>> "I want to rush for 1,000 or 1,500 yards, whichever comes first."
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. And, upon hearing Joe Jacobi of the 'Skin's say:
>> "I'd run over my own mother to win the Super Bowl,"
>> Matt Millen of the Raiders said: "To win, I'd run over Joe's Mom, too."
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Torrin Polk, University of Houston receiver, on his coach, John Jenkins:
>> "He treat us like mens. He let us wear earrings."
>>
>>
>>
>> 5. Football commentator and former player Joe Theismann:
>> "Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like
>> Norman Einstein."
>>
>>
>>
>> 6. Senior basketball player at the University of Pittsburgh :
>> "I'm going to graduate on time, no matter how long it takes.."
>> (Now that is beautiful)
>>
>>
>>
>> 7. Bill Peterson, a Florida State football coach:
>> "You guys line up alphabetically by height."
>> And, "You guys pair up in groups of three, and then line up in a circle."
>>
>>
>>
>> 8. Boxing promoter Dan Duva on Mike Tyson going to prison:
>> "Why would anyone expect him to come out smarter? He went to prison
>> for three years, not Princeton .."
>>
>>
>>
>> 9. Stu Grimson, Chicago Blackhawks left wing, explaining why he keeps
>> a color photo of himself above his locker:
>> "That's so when I forget how to spell my name, I can still find my clothes."
>>
>>
>>
>> 10. Lou Duva, veteran boxing trainer, on the Spartan training regimen
>> of heavyweight Andrew Golota:
>> "He's a guy who gets up at six o'clock in the morning, regardless of
>> what time it is."
>>
>>
>>
>> 11. Chuck Nevitt , North Carolina State basketball player, explaining
>> to Coach Jim Valvano why he appeared nervous at practice:
>> "My sister's expecting a baby, and I don't know if I'm going to be an
>> uncle or an aunt. (I wonder if his IQ ever hit room temperature in
>> January)
>>
>>
>>
>> 12. Frank Layden, Utah Jazz president, on a former player:
>> "I asked him, 'Son, what is it with you? Is it ignorance or apathy?'
>> He said, 'Coach, I don't know and I don't care.''
>>
>>
>>
>> 13. Shelby Metcalf, basketball coach at Texas A&M, recounting what he
>> told a player who received four F's and one D:
>> "Son, looks to me like you're spending too much time on one subject."
>>
>>
>>
>> 14. In the words of NC State great Charles Shackelford:
>> "I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious."
 
2013-10-04 02:22:55 PM  
The article fails to distinguish "cause" and "correlation". It's worthless.
 
2013-10-04 02:29:17 PM  

Marcintosh: give me doughnuts: Marcintosh: school - there is nothing you can't learn from a book and it's always been that way.


Didn't read that part in the book about double negatives, did you?


There's nothing (-) that you can not (-) learn from a book - ergo you can/may learn anything from a book.
The negatives are placed correctly to express the thoughts of the author and while the use of vernacular may be offensive to you it is an appropriate statement and expresses a fundamental truth in the educational system.

You nearly had me there, I was very close to thinking I'd made my first mistake but, I hadn't
So the work flow is- read - consider - re-read - accuse, it's a time honored tradition that prevents a participant from stepping on their privates.

That's it for today ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attention and please exit to the left.  Good day.


You did make a mistake in using a double negative, even if it was exactly what you meant. The initial statement should have been "You can learn anything from a book."
 
2013-10-04 05:07:30 PM  

Marcintosh: school - there is nothing you can't learn from a book and it's always been that way.
School is for learning how to be social in a general way
Sports are for learning how to be social in a specific way.

It's not about what you know - it's about who you know.  You always learn on the job so your education is less important to the work.

I have never had a position of value that didn't come from a personal recommendation.
Ever.

free_waffles: Schools with good athletics programs typically have more funding and a higher median income among the students' parents.
Schools with good academics typically have more funding and a higher median income(and a broader personal network)  among the student's parents.

And that too.
IOW's it's got only a very basic input/effect on the student/success outcome.


Gladhanding never built anything technical.  Technological superiority has been the basis for affluence for at least the last couple of centuries.
 
2013-10-04 05:19:36 PM  

give me doughnuts: You did make a mistake in using a double negative


Sometimes the use of a double negative is preferable to making a statement with no negatives. It's one of those things where "rules are made to be broken."

/but there are many things you can't learn from a book
//schools also have many resources that lots of families don't have
 
2013-10-04 06:50:59 PM  
This article seems to create a strawman about people's views about sports in academia.  I'm a college football fan, but I think it's egregious what some schools do to field competitive teams.  At the same time, I wouldn't blame all college sports for that problem, or suggest college sports and academia are completely at odds.

On a sidenote, I didn't play any high school sports, but I definitely concur that the people I've worked with who've played sports at that level bring something unique to the table in terms of work environment.  I'm not saying its a completely predictive factor, but they do tend to understand the team dynamic and how to get people to buy in to getting certain things accomplished.  Again, I know my share of those people who are also completely incompetent too, but there is a non-trivial correlation.  It really makes me wish I'd been talented enough to stick stuck with playing sports through my teenage years.
 
2013-10-04 10:25:53 PM  

umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.


That's a pretty stupid reasoning for perpetuating high school sports programs. I've known plenty of awful people who were "team players", by dint of the fact that they finished high school without getting kicked out of the sports program.
 
2013-10-04 10:59:37 PM  
sweet, correlation equals causation!

/it could just be that the kids of rich people want to play sports, and therefore the better academic schools also have sports---and they show good academic performance despite having so many sports, not because of it... or there could be no relation whatsoever....
 
Displayed 31 of 81 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report