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(The Atlantic)   Maybe, just maybe, high school athletics aren't killing academics after all   (theatlantic.com) divider line 81
    More: Interesting, high school sports, University of Arkansas, nominal fee, American high schools, Trinidad and Tobago, standardized test, negative relationship  
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6303 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Oct 2013 at 5:35 AM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-04 01:25:48 AM
Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.
 
2013-10-04 02:03:32 AM

umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.


This approach seems much more reliable than references.
 
2013-10-04 02:12:54 AM

umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.




Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?
 
2013-10-04 02:25:56 AM

Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?


Orchestra? Band? Choir?
 
2013-10-04 02:28:08 AM
This is an amazingly accurate headline for a reasonable and fair article, drawing few conclusions and advocating nothing more than further study, written by a scholar from a University with an infamously marginal sports program whose reputation was built on academics instead of athletic competition.

Why is it on Fark?
 
2013-10-04 02:40:56 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: This is an amazingly accurate headline for a reasonable and fair article, drawing few conclusions and advocating nothing more than further study, written by a scholar from a University with an infamously marginal sports program whose reputation was built on academics instead of athletic competition.

Why is it on Fark?


Every once in a while one slips by. The admins might be drunk.
 
2013-10-04 03:35:09 AM
Massachusetts produces math scores comparable to South Korea and Finland, while Mississippi scores are closer to Trinidad and Tobago. Ripley's thesis about sports falls apart in light of this fact. Schools in Massachusetts provide sports programs while schools in Finland do not. Schools in Mississippi may love football while in Tobago interscholastic sports are nowhere near as prominent.


Well, I'm convinced.  A state with some of the best colleges in the US produces scores similar to countries where parents beat their underperforming children and feed them rotting cabbage or a country where there is nothing the fark to do but look at reindeer and be on the internet or study.

A state where most white people think repealing slavery was a bad idea produces scores similar to a couple of resource-free islands whose surface area is smaller than Ted's Montana Grill holdings.  Even if someone was to fly that far south for vacation, they'd go to Aruba.  What is the main income source for Trinidad and Tobago?  Their GDP is $26 billion per year.  The US is spending half of that doing nothing every day.

Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.
 
2013-10-04 05:40:58 AM
So, institutions bent on retaining athletes have inflated test scores and lower drop-out rates?

Shut the front door!
 
2013-10-04 05:43:16 AM

umadbro: I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player


So you prefer mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers over independant, creative, deviants?

Interesting choice.
 
2013-10-04 05:43:18 AM
Maybe subby is a dipshiat.
 
2013-10-04 05:51:09 AM
I don't think anyone ever said we shouldn't do sports... Especially in fatty mcfatterson land. I think the complaint is usually about the amount of money blown on sports vs academics.
 
2013-10-04 05:51:53 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?


Only if they faced some serious adversity and had to find the guts to persevere despite anguish that made you want to quit every day, for months and months.....And I don't mean listening to amateur band or choir.
 
2013-10-04 05:52:04 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?


Choir kicks ass. It builds that team-playing ability just as well as organized sport.

In football, the quarterback is going to get hurt--that's a given. The center and tailback might avoid bodily harm, and the team isn't looked upon as "bad" if one player slips up. At least in a choir, the whole group is penalized if someone is off-key.

/Not a football fan
//Prefer rugby
 
2013-10-04 06:19:07 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: This is an amazingly accurate headline for a reasonable and fair article, drawing few conclusions and advocating nothing more than further study, written by a scholar from a University with an infamously marginal sports program whose reputation was built on academics instead of athletic competition.

Why is it on Fark?


Shut up, NERD.
 
2013-10-04 06:32:24 AM
lusipurr.com
 
2013-10-04 06:34:51 AM
They help right up to the point where you start cancelling academics to fund athletics.
 
2013-10-04 06:54:39 AM

syrynxx: Massachusetts produces math scores comparable to South Korea and Finland, while Mississippi scores are closer to Trinidad and Tobago. Ripley's thesis about sports falls apart in light of this fact. Schools in Massachusetts provide sports programs while schools in Finland do not. Schools in Mississippi may love football while in Tobago interscholastic sports are nowhere near as prominent.


Well, I'm convinced.  A state with some of the best colleges in the US produces....

Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.


First of all the study is about high school athletics.  Secondly we're talking about large groups of students and their average performance and the article is not claiming causation.  Having experienced the dynamic I can tell you this much: Participation in organized sports at the high school level helps greatly improve the academic performance of marginal to "likely to fail" students WAY more than it hurts those who would have been academically successful anyway.  The net result is an overall improvement of scores for schools where significant numbers of students participate in a sport.

Even if a kid has NO role models at home their coaches are often looking over their shoulder and participating in their academic efforts - study tables, grade checks, disciplinary intervention, positive role modeling.... anecdotes are not data but I personally have known dozens of young men who really only managed to stay out of trouble and graduate high school because their coach became defacto mom/dad.
 
2013-10-04 06:57:00 AM
Article writer went to Rice, argument is invalid.
 
2013-10-04 06:57:30 AM
I'm going to threadjack a little here - I attended a Catholic all boy's "college prep" school.  I saw a commercial the other day for the school on local TV.   They never mentioned that 98% of the graduates went to college or that 40% received some sort of scholarship.   No, they talked about the football program and the baseball program and the basketball program, Since I was never involved in those, I found it odd.   But I can see the benefits of those programs in developing those young men.  I don't know.
 
2013-10-04 07:02:12 AM

EvilEgg: They help right up to the point where you start cancelling academics to fund athletics.


Agreed.  I'm not saying team sports are useless.  I am saying they are not as useful as their funding priority would lead us to believe.
 
2013-10-04 07:30:32 AM
Research shows that schools with strong athletic programs money have higher test scores and lower drop-out rates.

Oddly enough, those same schools often have strong athletic programs too.
 
2013-10-04 07:30:45 AM

Because People in power are Stupid: [lusipurr.com image 400x353]


"Bearotic"?  Is Ogre some kind of rugby jock?
 
2013-10-04 07:41:17 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: umadbro: I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player

So you prefer mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers over independant, creative, deviants?

Interesting choice.


Independent, creative, deviants all think they're Albert Einstein.
They're not, and there's really no reason to have those people around.
 
2013-10-04 07:42:01 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: So, institutions bent on retaining athletes have inflated test scores and lower drop-out rates?

Shut the front door!


This.
 
2013-10-04 07:45:10 AM

syrynxx: Massachusetts produces math scores comparable to South Korea and Finland, while Mississippi scores are closer to Trinidad and Tobago. Ripley's thesis about sports falls apart in light of this fact. Schools in Massachusetts provide sports programs while schools in Finland do not. Schools in Mississippi may love football while in Tobago interscholastic sports are nowhere near as prominent.


Well, I'm convinced.  A state with some of the best colleges in the US produces scores similar to countries where parents beat their underperforming children and feed them rotting cabbage or a country where there is nothing the fark to do but look at reindeer and be on the internet or study.

A state where most white people think repealing slavery was a bad idea produces scores similar to a couple of resource-free islands whose surface area is smaller than Ted's Montana Grill holdings.  Even if someone was to fly that far south for vacation, they'd go to Aruba.  What is the main income source for Trinidad and Tobago?  Their GDP is $26 billion per year.  The US is spending half of that doing nothing every day.

Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.


RG3 graduated from college in three years (poly sci) with a 3.7 GPA, won the Heisman Trophy, and is now a starting QB in the NFL.

Try again or move the goalposts.
 
2013-10-04 07:52:28 AM
Schools with good athletics programs typically have more funding and a higher median income among the students' parents.
Schools with good academics typically have more funding and a higher median income among the student's parents.
 
2013-10-04 08:05:26 AM
I'd hazard a wild-ass guess that a study using "sports winning percentages" as a proxy for sports focus might really be hitting affluence.
 
2013-10-04 08:05:47 AM
NCAA athletes already have higher grad rates than the already crappy non-athlete grad rates. And have for years. Not much higher...but I almost graduated doesn't cut it on a resume.

And since only about 10% of any the majors  at any particular school will get you a related job anyway...

which reminds me...I worked with girl who was only 3 classes away from getting her degree at UCLA and she got pregnant.  Never finished up.  oh well.
 
2013-10-04 08:08:35 AM
There are valuable lessons to be learned through athletics, some good some bad.
 
2013-10-04 08:09:30 AM
school - there is nothing you can't learn from a book and it's always been that way.
School is for learning how to be social in a general way
Sports are for learning how to be social in a specific way.

It's not about what you know - it's about who you know.  You always learn on the job so your education is less important to the work.

I have never had a position of value that didn't come from a personal recommendation.
Ever.

free_waffles: Schools with good athletics programs typically have more funding and a higher median income among the students' parents.
Schools with good academics typically have more funding and a higher median income

(and a broader personal network)  among the student's parents.

And that too.
IOW's it's got only a very basic input/effect on the student/success outcome.
 
2013-10-04 08:26:40 AM

Marcintosh: school - there is nothing you can't learn from a book and it's always been that way.



Didn't read that part in the book about double negatives, did you?
 
2013-10-04 08:27:57 AM
If The Atlantic says it, the opposite must be true.
 
2013-10-04 08:30:47 AM

Alonjar: I don't think anyone ever said we shouldn't do sports... Especially in fatty mcfatterson land. I think the complaint is usually about the amount of money blown on sports vs academics.


Why does it always come back to money?  It doesn't take a whole lot of money to educate people.  Education is more about the culture.

Do think in S. Korea and India they're out spending the US for education?

How is it the average Indian immigrant or Asian immigrant can some how learn in the same exact schools that the average african american kid cannot?
 
2013-10-04 08:34:52 AM

GoldSpider: Research shows that schools with strong athletic programs money have higher test scores and lower drop-out rates.

Oddly enough, those same schools often have strong athletic programs too.


Came here to say that.   The article gave zero evidence that sports helps academics (or vice versa), it is much more likely that other factors help both.
 
2013-10-04 08:36:45 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?


Exactly, I would take any of those over "yet another dumb jock"
 
2013-10-04 08:41:42 AM

Babwa Wawa: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

This approach seems much more reliable than references.


This.

Lenny_da_Hog: Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?


That and that.

Something like 10% of the high school can be in high school team athletics - at least it's a much higher percentage than in college, I suppose.  And ya know what - it isn't the 10% that also happens to be most likely to succeed.  They may be slightly more likely, but that's not due to team-building or such; more due to vanity, aggressiveness, and other such qualities which tend to (unfortunately) be rewarded in US corporate culture.
 
2013-10-04 08:44:15 AM

syrynxx: A state where most white people think repealing slavery was a bad idea


Holy sh*t you are a complete idiot.  Like, the worst kind of idiot.  An idiot with just enough education to speak somewhat coherently about all the stupid sh*t rolling around in your tiny little head.
 
2013-10-04 08:46:04 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: This is an amazingly accurate headline for a reasonable and fair article, drawing few conclusions and advocating nothing more than further study, written by a scholar from a University with an infamously marginal sports program whose reputation was built on academics instead of athletic competition.

Why is it on Fark?


And a well reasoned, coherent, anti-inflammatory comment.  Why is that on Fark?


replygif.net
 
2013-10-04 08:48:39 AM

give me doughnuts: Marcintosh: school - there is nothing you can't learn from a book and it's always been that way.


Didn't read that part in the book about double negatives, did you?



There's nothing (-) that you can not (-) learn from a book - ergo you can/may learn anything from a book.
The negatives are placed correctly to express the thoughts of the author and while the use of vernacular may be offensive to you it is an appropriate statement and expresses a fundamental truth in the educational system.

You nearly had me there, I was very close to thinking I'd made my first mistake but, I hadn't
So the work flow is- read - consider - re-read - accuse, it's a time honored tradition that prevents a participant from stepping on their privates.

That's it for today ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attention and please exit to the left.  Good day.
 
2013-10-04 08:51:22 AM

RidersOfLohan: NCAA athletes already have higher grad rates than the already crappy non-athlete grad rates. And have for years. Not much higher...but I almost graduated doesn't cut it on a resume.

And since only about 10% of any the majors  at any particular school will get you a related job anyway...

which reminds me...I worked with girl who was only 3 classes away from getting her degree at UCLA and she got pregnant.  Never finished up.  oh well.


At the university I attended, it was understood that at least the football and basketball teams had access to paid tutors, test banks, etc. that were unavailable to your average student unless they had cash to spend or joined a fraternity/sorority who generally keep test banks as well. Also this university had a reputation for taking it easy on athletes to begin with, so there's that.

Comparing your average athlete's test scores to your average collegian is a bit tricky when you can't trust that they have access to the same materials and that they are graded without bias.
 
2013-10-04 08:52:46 AM

syrynxx: Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.


That's one of the most close minded views I've ever heard.  A diversity of interests will help teach you more than burying yourself in a single subject, and the same applies to multiple disciplines and pursuits outside of academics.

Yes, this means you won't get to watch your favorite tv show every night, but excellence does require some sacrifice.
 
2013-10-04 08:56:25 AM
"http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1175544?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid= 4& sid=21102706368917">Coleman finds that social capital is highly predictive of academic success. He comes to this conclusion after conducting substantial research on the remarkably low dropout rates at religious private schools. "After extensive investigation," he and his colleagues Thomas Hoffer and Sally Kilgore conclude that the private-school effect "was not the result of greater curricular demands or anything else within the school, but was due to a different relation of the school to the parental community." He concludes that it is weekly gatherings for religious services that facilitate increases in social capital. "

He's an idiot.
1) There are entrance exams for the private religious schools so you're already culling the lower scoring students who are more likely to drop out.
2)  The parents are paying for their kids to go to school and when they care enough to pay, they care enough to pay attention to how their child is doing in class and seek out help if needed.
3) Parents who pay for school most likely have a decent job and are involved in their children's lives.  This sets a good example and gives the student something to strive for.
 
2013-10-04 09:28:03 AM
I've coached freshmen football for 4 years. Our players ALWAYS get better grades in-season than otherwise. I would imagine more focus on time-management is in play.
 
2013-10-04 09:29:39 AM
The general attitude in here that interests in athletics & academics are somehow conflicting is repugnant.

Any pursuit that teaches discipline, pulls one out of their comfort zone and requires you to dig deeper to achieve goals that were once out of reach has an intrinsic value.  I don't care if that is learning Overture to Candide, cramming & cramming for science olympiad, running for school treasurer, or -gasp- doing a sport to the best of your ability.

Time for some of you to grow up and stop living in HS.
 
2013-10-04 09:36:23 AM
So personal interests and other motivational factors don't play into the equation?  A person either has the propensity to learn or they don't.  Whether they choose to leverage that is the real key.  In high school I was more concerned with sports, recreational chemistry and having fun than learning.  I extended little to no effort to academics and my low B average spoke to that.  In college my interests were women, beer and having fun.  Again, academics were a low priority and my middle C average spoke to that.  In grad school my priorities were academics and my A average reflected that.  People mature and focus at different rates.  I expect that that has more to do with scholastic achievement than any other factor.
 
2013-10-04 09:40:05 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: umadbro: I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player

So you prefer mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers over independant, creative, deviants?

Interesting choice.


He probably likes dogs more than cats, too.
 
2013-10-04 09:41:42 AM

SmellsLikePoo: The general attitude in here that interests in athletics & academics are somehow conflicting is repugnant.

Any pursuit that teaches discipline, pulls one out of their comfort zone and requires you to dig deeper to achieve goals that were once out of reach has an intrinsic value. I don't care if that is learning Overture to Candide, cramming & cramming for science olympiad, running for school treasurer, or -gasp- doing a sport to the best of your ability.


Nope. You're absolutely wrong. It's a nice platitude -- learning is learning no matter the topic, and is always to be valued -- but it's crap.
 
2013-10-04 09:43:28 AM

foo monkey: syrynxx: Massachusetts produces math scores comparable to South Korea and Finland, while Mississippi scores are closer to Trinidad and Tobago. Ripley's thesis about sports falls apart in light of this fact. Schools in Massachusetts provide sports programs while schools in Finland do not. Schools in Mississippi may love football while in Tobago interscholastic sports are nowhere near as prominent.


Well, I'm convinced.  A state with some of the best colleges in the US produces scores similar to countries where parents beat their underperforming children and feed them rotting cabbage or a country where there is nothing the fark to do but look at reindeer and be on the internet or study.

A state where most white people think repealing slavery was a bad idea produces scores similar to a couple of resource-free islands whose surface area is smaller than Ted's Montana Grill holdings.  Even if someone was to fly that far south for vacation, they'd go to Aruba.  What is the main income source for Trinidad and Tobago?  Their GDP is $26 billion per year.  The US is spending half of that doing nothing every day.

Bah.  You can't be an athlete spending three hours of practice a day after school and be a good academic any more than you can spend three hours reading a day and somehow be a good athlete.  You have to practice what you want to be good at. Practice won't guarantee you'll be good, but lack of practice guarantees you won't.

RG3 graduated from college in three years (poly sci) with a 3.7 GPA, won the Heisman Trophy, and is now a starting QB in the NFL.

Try again or move the goalposts.


He didn't say no one can, just that YOU can't.  And I'd say that's true for any YOU on Fark.

There are people who can.  There are maybe 100 of them, in the entire country, including the ones coming up, and the ones who already did.

Meanwhile, we waste billions on high school and college athletics, when it serves an amazingly tiny population.  Let the for-profit business that is the NFL bankroll their own farm leagues, stop wasting public money on it.

If you want to help kids be physically fit, there are far more cost effective ways to do it, and they work a lot better than football.  Have you seen a retired football player?  They're not typically healthy people.
 
2013-10-04 10:01:21 AM

maram500: Lenny_da_Hog: Darth_Lukecash: umadbro: Every industry is different. I prefer to work with someone who has been an integral team player. It makes it easier to trust someone who otherwise you know nothing about.

Would you include speech team, debate team? People in plays?

Orchestra? Band? Choir?

Choir kicks ass. It builds that team-playing ability just as well as organized sport.

In football, the quarterback is going to get hurt--that's a given. The center and tailback might avoid bodily harm, and the team isn't looked upon as "bad" if one player slips up. At least in a choir, the whole group is penalized if someone is off-key.

/Not a football fan
//Prefer rugby


No it doesn't. Best sport for it is basketball though.

/did football, band, track, and basketball in hs
 
2013-10-04 10:08:09 AM

EyeballKid: Nope. You're absolutely wrong. It's a nice platitude -- learning is learning no matter the topic, and is always to be valued -- but it's crap.


I'll bet you're a delight to spend time with.  What's your sole interest?

I'm sure you wouldn't waste time on anything outside of your academic pursuit, and if you were it would be much more valuable time spent than someone who wants to pursue a sport.

From your profile....Proofreader. Musician. Roller derby announcer. A dessert topping, and a floor wax.

I'm sensing a conflict!
 
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