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(The Register)   MIT engineers devise more efficient condensers, paving the way for dirigibles and saunas that chill your beer with waste heat   (theregister.co.uk) divider line 22
    More: Spiffy, MIT, waste heat, airships, gas turbines, James Watt, steam turbines, Industrial Revolutions, boilers  
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2281 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Oct 2013 at 1:42 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



22 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-03 02:32:43 PM  
 
2013-10-03 02:33:22 PM  
 
2013-10-03 03:04:20 PM  
pendletonpanther.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-10-03 03:09:56 PM  
The lack of understanding on how turbines and condensors work is appalling

FTA quote "The condenser keeps the pressure at its end of the turbine lower than the pressure at the boiler end, meaning that steam blasts through the blades harder and spins the turbine more powerfully, so generating more power " /quote

Turbines are not windmills.  They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum.   Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy.   The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.

In fact, the condensation of the steam into water is what generates the main part of the vacuum in the condensor.    We jump start the process by using steam ejectors to draw the initial vacuum, and to compensate for air leaks, but when the steam condenses, the change in volume is where most of the ongoing vacuum comes from.
 
2013-10-03 03:28:30 PM  

weiserfireman: Turbines are not windmills. They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum. Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy. The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.


Not an engineer!

but the pressure gradient between front and back of the turbine is what allows the kinetic energy to be delieverd to the blades...if you want increased output would you increase the steam input or would you adjust the blade angle?
 
2013-10-03 04:11:41 PM  
Maybe they will make a Sky Captain 2 movie.
 
2013-10-03 04:20:25 PM  
Will they be easier for Luke to repair in time to go to the Tashi station?
 
2013-10-03 04:33:27 PM  
The spice must flow
 
2013-10-03 06:22:59 PM  

johnny_vegas: weiserfireman: Turbines are not windmills. They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum. Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy. The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.

Not an engineer!

but the pressure gradient between front and back of the turbine is what allows the kinetic energy to be delieverd to the blades...if you want increased output would you increase the steam input or would you adjust the blade angle?


Not quite. It really isnt all that different from a normal internal combustion engine. The hot steam isnt moved by lack of pressure, rather its drawn in by the action of the piston. Ideally the chamber you draw into is actually just as hot and the same pressure as the steam. James Watt recognized this, and all he did was add a second chamber to handle the cooling and vastly improved the efficiency. Vacuum caused by the condensing gas is what drives the piston that draws the steam in.
 
2013-10-03 06:25:39 PM  
They must have sprayed the condenser fins with some of that Rustoleum Neverwet stuff that I saw a commercial for on TV last weekend.
 
2013-10-03 06:34:18 PM  
By the time you've gotten condensers you've usually owned most of Planet and just toying with the remaining factions while you play out the transcendence to immortality any ways.
 
2013-10-03 06:58:59 PM  
which could seriously boost the efficiency of a critical piece of kit used in many important technologies.

The piece of kit in question is the humble water condenser.

That is terrible writing.
 
2013-10-03 07:11:26 PM  

Albinoman: johnny_vegas: weiserfireman: Turbines are not windmills. They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum. Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy. The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.

Not an engineer!

but the pressure gradient between front and back of the turbine is what allows the kinetic energy to be delieverd to the blades...if you want increased output would you increase the steam input or would you adjust the blade angle?

Not quite. It really isnt all that different from a normal internal combustion engine. The hot steam isnt moved by lack of pressure, rather its drawn in by the action of the piston. Ideally the chamber you draw into is actually just as hot and the same pressure as the steam. James Watt recognized this, and all he did was add a second chamber to handle the cooling and vastly improved the efficiency. Vacuum caused by the condensing gas is what drives the piston that draws the steam in.


And I just now realized Im thinking of the wrong damn engine. Really dont want to hit refresh to see the scathing comments.
 
2013-10-03 08:11:45 PM  
theelectrostore.com

Sure, there is some current leakage between the plates, but in general they are pretty efficient when not used over voltage.

Damn if I know how they could be used to make a dirigible though. .
 
2013-10-03 09:11:10 PM  

Albinoman: Albinoman: johnny_vegas: weiserfireman: Turbines are not windmills. They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum. Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy. The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.

Not an engineer!

but the pressure gradient between front and back of the turbine is what allows the kinetic energy to be delieverd to the blades...if you want increased output would you increase the steam input or would you adjust the blade angle?

Not quite. It really isnt all that different from a normal internal combustion engine. The hot steam isnt moved by lack of pressure, rather its drawn in by the action of the piston. Ideally the chamber you draw into is actually just as hot and the same pressure as the steam. James Watt recognized this, and all he did was add a second chamber to handle the cooling and vastly improved the efficiency. Vacuum caused by the condensing gas is what drives the piston that draws the steam in.

And I just now realized Im thinking of the wrong damn engine. Really dont want to hit refresh to see the scathing comments.


To be clear, are you recanting your statement that the differential pressure across the turbine blades is was causes the fluid to move past the turbine, which in turn causes the blades to spin?
 
2013-10-03 09:12:10 PM  

RogermcAllen: Albinoman: Albinoman: johnny_vegas: weiserfireman: Turbines are not windmills. They don't spin "harder" because they are exhausting into a vacuum. Turbines change the thermal energy in the steam into mechanical energy. The vacuum of the condensor makes them more efficient because it lowers the boiling point of water so the turbine can extract more energy.

Not an engineer!

but the pressure gradient between front and back of the turbine is what allows the kinetic energy to be delieverd to the blades...if you want increased output would you increase the steam input or would you adjust the blade angle?

Not quite. It really isnt all that different from a normal internal combustion engine. The hot steam isnt moved by lack of pressure, rather its drawn in by the action of the piston. Ideally the chamber you draw into is actually just as hot and the same pressure as the steam. James Watt recognized this, and all he did was add a second chamber to handle the cooling and vastly improved the efficiency. Vacuum caused by the condensing gas is what drives the piston that draws the steam in.

And I just now realized Im thinking of the wrong damn engine. Really dont want to hit refresh to see the scathing comments.

To be clear, are you recanting your statement that the differential pressure across the turbine blades is not was causes the fluid to move past the turbine, which in turn causes the blades to spin?


I think I missed a not.
 
2013-10-03 11:57:51 PM  
Where in the fark is my replacement Hindenburg 2.0? Why cant we have nice things? Is it because of the huge manatees? I JUST WANT to get on an 800 foot long zeppelin and go somewhere without the whole fireball possibility and all the crashing etc. If a new "condenser" is going to get me there then great, someone go make one of those right now and give it to the dirigible guy please so we can get moving already.
 
2013-10-04 12:16:58 AM  
I could see this improving efficiency in power plants 1, maybe (and I think it might be a stretch) 2%. That said, those kinds of thermodynamic improvements are rare nowadays and would result in a lot of money being saved.
 
2013-10-04 12:52:56 AM  

ajgeek: I could see this improving efficiency in power plants 1, maybe (and I think it might be a stretch) 2%. That said, those kinds of thermodynamic improvements are rare nowadays and would result in a lot of money being saved.


Yeah a 1%+ boost, if it becomes a de rigueur technology, is huge sums of money and a considerable ecological impact. Not earth shattering, but certainly a step in the right direction. Basically put it this way. Would everyone you know like to lower their energy costs by a percentage? The answer will always be yes.

I do like the idea of modding them up to make other renewable energy sources even more efficient, where I think every little bit helps them stay competitive.

Good on those boffins.

Also, while the guy was joking - I think - about the neverwet stuff, I have to imagine those things are already pretty coated with something hydrophobic... but I have no idea really.
 
2013-10-04 12:04:46 PM  
SOO not an engineer

but when I read that headline I thought they were going to use steam to fill the air bag and that the new condenser would make it more economical / viable than a HE airship.

Then I wondered to my self why don't we do that, in theory its the just the same as a hot air balloon and water vapor (9) is lighter than nitrogen(17) so as long as the overall weight of the airship was maintained  it should float right?.
 
2013-10-04 12:09:38 PM  
http://www.flyingkettle.com/conpaper.htm

Then thanks to google I found this
so apparently steam would provide 60% the lift of Helium
So if we could make a light superstructure (Carbon nanotubes etc)
It might be doable

What I need is QA to come in and tell me why I am wrong. :)
 
2013-10-04 11:38:40 PM  

onzmadi: SOO not an engineer

but when I read that headline I thought they were going to use steam to fill the air bag and that the new condenser would make it more economical / viable than a HE airship.

Then I wondered to my self why don't we do that, in theory its the just the same as a hot air balloon and water vapor (9) is lighter than nitrogen(17) so as long as the overall weight of the airship was maintained  it should float right?.


Steam does very bad things to rubber and nylon. So while it might float, it won't for long.

/and it takes a LOT more energy to make steam than it does to just heat air.
 
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