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(Talking Points Memo)   Rand: Let's keep talking about our willingness to compromise so people won't notice that it was our unwillingness to compromise that led to the shutdown in the first place. McConnell: Good, that should fool them. Say, your mike isn't hot, is it?   (talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Mitch McConnell, audio feedback, compromises, Western Kentucky, Party leaders of the United States Senate  
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6480 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Oct 2013 at 2:07 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-03 04:40:46 PM  
Goddamn anti-american republic*nts
 
2013-10-03 04:42:25 PM  

glassa: At least Clinton was willing to talk & compromise.


I haven't read the thread so I apologize if I'm the 4,981st person to mention to this to you - but the previous shutdowns were based on honest budget issue give-n-take. This is one is based on defunding a LAW that has been DEMONSTRATED as CONSTITUTIONAL in order to gain cheap political points with gerrymandered bases. That's it. It's a farking tantrum that makes Gingrich's little crusade seem downright patriotic in comparison. Gingrich wasn't trying to hold the economy and world financial opinion hostage for the sake of pure politics. OK, ok...at least not to the extent we're seeing now.

The "compromise" you want from Obama is to give everything the Teapubs want. That isn't how this, or any game, is played. And the next person who says, "Obama should compromise" is getting a (blank) list of GOP compromises in the Obama era, taped around my boot, and then having it lodged in their ass.

And I'm trying to quit smoking this week, so no one better test me on this.
 
2013-10-03 04:44:36 PM  
Strolpol:
Well, my point was that since the Republicans are literally offering nothing besides a list of demands, it's not ...

I agree, I'm just noting that I wish Democrats would point out that they've already been entirely too reasonable and given up a significant amount of their desired budgetary objectives in pushing for a clean CR.

After all this I hope the GOP gets doomed to a decade in exile. I definitely think there needs to be two viable parties in the Country for our Democracy to really work, but the current incarnation of the GOP is far from viable, or even workable, and needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt.
 
2013-10-03 04:58:18 PM  

SkinnyHead: The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse


really? so what are they willing to give the Dems? Single payer? Higher taxes on the rich? Stricter gun regulations?
 
2013-10-03 05:01:51 PM  

Zerochance: cc_rider: It's disgusting, but it was no accident this got recorded. They knew the mics were on.

These two are pile-of-bricks dumb.  I'm willing to bet they didn't know.


That's insulting to piles of bricks.
 
2013-10-03 05:06:35 PM  
SkinnyHead

WayToBlue: SkinnyHead

The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution. You don't need to take a poll to know that. They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.

You mean a solution to the problem they caused, after getting all of what they wanted in budget cuts (you know the actual point of a budget CR)? That's the problem they're looking to "solve," right?

If I mug you and then you catch up with me, is it appropriate for me to ask to keep half of your money? Do I get to say you aren't working for a solution if you refuse? Why aren't you working with me, just give me half your money and this can be over!

The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse that exists between the House and Senate when it comes to ironing out differences in the provisions of the continuing resolution. The House is willing to compromise but the Senate is not. That's the problem.


The republicans created the impasse. They are the only reason there is an impasse. They are the problem.

Your mugging analogy is completely off track. Harry Reid does not own the government. The House is not trying to take something that belongs to Harry Reid.

Where did Harry Reid come from? No, he doesn't own the government, we the people do. The house is taking from us, they have shut down the government and many important services it provides.

The Constitution requires the agreement of both houses to fund the government. One side is trying to do that and the other side is not. Harry Reid has shut down the government because he stubbornly refuses to work with the House.

Yes, funding, which is what this bill is supposed to be about. And the democrats gave all the cuts the republicans were asking for. You want compromise, how about getting everything you asked for, seems like a good compromise. But that wasn't enough, so now they're trying to change established laws, which has no business in a budget CR.

They took a topic they knew was a complete nonstarter and made it the only way forward, and now they're up on their crosses acting surprised we're stuck.

Imagine Obama was requiring funding to create a national gun registry or he wouldn't sign a CR, would you consider that an acceptable tactic?

We are here for one reason; a bunch of republicans believe they need to out derp the other republicans or they're going to get primaried by someone even derpier.

There's a reason Beohner won't let there be a straight up or down vote for a clean CR, he knows it will pass, because there are enough members of his own party that see how retarded this is.
 
2013-10-03 05:08:03 PM  
Hobodeluxe

SkinnyHead: The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse

really? so what are they willing to give the Dems? Single payer? Higher taxes on the rich? Stricter gun regulations?


Indeed, they ask for a "compromise" but offer nothing in return.
 
2013-10-03 05:18:42 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: vernonFL: The house CAN pass a clean CR with bipartisan votes. The votes are there. They wont even bring it up though.

That's why the President it taking dead aim at Boehner now. He's pointing out that one man - John Boehner - could stop all of this in the next five minutes if he would just bring a clean funding vote to the floor. There are now at least 20 sane GOP House members ready to vote for it, which is more than we need.


And whenever he meets with Obama, his popularity drops faster than a mobster who turns state's evidence.  Pretty soon he'll be free of caring about his House seat, 'cuz he knows he won't be keeping it anyway. When that day comes, this shutdown is over.
 
2013-10-03 05:19:12 PM  

WayToBlue: Hobodeluxe

SkinnyHead: The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse

really? so what are they willing to give the Dems? Single payer? Higher taxes on the rich? Stricter gun regulations?

Indeed, they ask for a "compromise" but offer nothing in return.


and none of the news people will ask them what whey are giving in return for their part of the compromise.
just ask them what concessions they are bringing to the table.
if they say we will pass a continuing resolution as their only concession then respond,that's not a concession, that's extortion.
 
2013-10-03 05:20:22 PM  

IlGreven: shower_in_my_socks: vernonFL: The house CAN pass a clean CR with bipartisan votes. The votes are there. They wont even bring it up though.

That's why the President it taking dead aim at Boehner now. He's pointing out that one man - John Boehner - could stop all of this in the next five minutes if he would just bring a clean funding vote to the floor. There are now at least 20 sane GOP House members ready to vote for it, which is more than we need.

And whenever he meets with Obama, his popularity drops faster than a mobster who turns state's evidence.  Pretty soon he'll be free of caring about his House seat, 'cuz he knows he won't be keeping it anyway. When that day comes, this shutdown is over.


Obama should publicly support him and tell everyone he will campaign for his reelection.
lol
 
2013-10-03 05:25:59 PM  

SkinnyHead: guestguy: No, the Republicans are trying to tie something to the CR that has no business being there...they're trying to change a settled law by holding the government hostage.  They have reasonable changes to propose?  Great, go through the proper channels to do so!  The Democrats should never compromise when tactics like this are used, or they will do it every single time they don't get their way.

Who says that provisions cannot be attached to a CR?  Democrats have done it in the past.  It's not like some sort of criminal act.  The House has the same right to participate in decision making as the Senate.  The House is trying to work with the Senate to solve the impasse, but the Senate refuses to talk.



Do you have examples of what Democrats have attached to it in the past?  Was it attempting to ram through changes to a settled law which have repeatedly failed to make it through the normal channels?  It's not a criminal act, but that doesn't make it any less reckless or underhanded, and it certainly doesn't shift the blame for the shutdown to the Democrats for refusing to capitulate to the demands of hostage takers.
 
2013-10-03 05:40:01 PM  

Strolpol: glassa: NEITHER group wants to compromise.  NEITHER.

But only one side gets the blame for it.

At least Clinton was willing to talk & compromise.

They're all a bunch of spoiled children.

There's nothing to compromise on. The Republicans are offering literally nothing besides "give us everything we want or we ruin the world economy."

ACA is a settled law, duly passed by Congress and found to be Constitutional.

It's already gone into effect and is funded outside of anything that would be effected by the CR. The forty-some-odd attempts at repeal have not worked because they simply can't get past the Senate, let alone the President. It's a LOST CAUSE. The entire reason for this shutdown is to extort Congress and the Senate to agree to killing the ACA, or else the world economy gets it.

There's LITERALLY no moral ground for Republicans to stand on here, and that's not even taking into consideration the economic and social fallout we're already feeling from the shutdown.


QFT
 
2013-10-03 05:48:32 PM  

WayToBlue: The republicans created the impasse. They are the only reason there is an impasse. They are the problem.


We got an impasse because the two houses that must agree cannot agree.  That's why they need to work together to resolve it.  The side that is unwilling to negotiate an end to the government shut down is the side that is responsible for continuing the shut down.

so now they're trying to change established laws, which has no business in a budget CR.

What are they trying to change about the established law?  You mean giving people a one year delay in the individual mandate.  Obama has given big businesses a one year delay in their mandates, and he's not even a lawmaker. So what's the problem in giving the same consideration to ordinary people?

And the other issue is whether Reid and other members of congress can keep their Obamacare subsidies.  Those subsidies are not a part of "established laws," they are a gift of taxpayer money that this administration gave to congress members.  It is not unreasonable to defund that giveaway.

Hobodeluxe: SkinnyHead: The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse

really? so what are they willing to give the Dems? Single payer? Higher taxes on the rich? Stricter gun regulations?


See, that's the problem.  From the democrat perspective, the question is, what's in it for me? The issue is not what democrats or republicans get from the deal, but whether democrats and republicans can work together to find a solution which would fund the government in a way that everyone can live with.
 
2013-10-03 05:50:40 PM  

WayToBlue: Hobodeluxe

SkinnyHead: The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse

really? so what are they willing to give the Dems? Single payer? Higher taxes on the rich? Stricter gun regulations?

Indeed, they ask for a "compromise" but offer nothing in return.


What are you talking about?  Wake up, sheeple!  The Republicans are willing to say they compromised.  Don't you get it?
 
2013-10-03 05:53:12 PM  

guestguy: SkinnyHead: guestguy: No, the Republicans are trying to tie something to the CR that has no business being there...they're trying to change a settled law by holding the government hostage.  They have reasonable changes to propose?  Great, go through the proper channels to do so!  The Democrats should never compromise when tactics like this are used, or they will do it every single time they don't get their way.

Who says that provisions cannot be attached to a CR?  Democrats have done it in the past.  It's not like some sort of criminal act.  The House has the same right to participate in decision making as the Senate.  The House is trying to work with the Senate to solve the impasse, but the Senate refuses to talk.

Do you have examples of what Democrats have attached to it in the past?  Was it attempting to ram through changes to a settled law which have repeatedly failed to make it through the normal channels?  It's not a criminal act, but that doesn't make it any less reckless or underhanded, and it certainly doesn't shift the blame for the shutdown to the Democrats for refusing to capitulate to the demands of hostage takers.


The "settled law" that said there was an employer mandate and a requirement for Congress to eat its own dog food? THAT settled law, the one that Obama waived his magic wand over and changed without Congress doing jack? [Yeah, I used 'waived' deliberately]. If the President and Democrats feel that Obamacare is infinitely malleable, the Republicans are entitled to think of it that way too, and to fight to get some of their own changes. And at least they're doing it through legit means and not just ignoring what the law plainly says when it becomes inconvenient.
 
2013-10-03 05:59:01 PM  
I'm puzzled.  It's clear that the Tea Partiers are loud, and obnoxious, and have found a way to dominate every conversation.  And we can see that just a small number of them, crazed enough, can do huge amounts of harm to the democratic process.  But why is it so obvious that if Boehner decides to go sane and let the clean CR come to a vote, that the TP in his district (or the TP in the district of any congressman who might vote to end this nonsense) will, without exception, vote for a TP nut in a primary, who will win because they have the numbers.  Really?  There have to be a significant number of quiet, unassuming Republicans who will vote for relative sanity without making a big fuss about it.  We already know that there are way more "sane" Repubs in Congress than the insane Tea Partiers, they just don't have the guts to stand up and be counted because of TPhobia.  So why is "death by TP" the inevitable outcome of doing the right thing?
 
2013-10-03 06:00:27 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: glassa: NEITHER group wants to compromise.  NEITHER.

But only one side gets the blame for it.

At least Clinton was willing to talk & compromise.

They're all a bunch of spoiled children.

What are you doing not on my ignore list??? BYE!


Hey Mike, if I'm not there already put me on your ignore list too so you can stay cozy in your ideological cocoon.
 
2013-10-03 06:06:22 PM  

SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.


And they see that side pretending to compromise is actually the side that shut the government down after six months of the other side begging them to negotiate. Then, after that side shut the government down, the public sees that side moaning about war memorials and not saying a word about the pregnant and nursing women, infants, and children deprived of food because WIC has been shut down.

Yes, America sees the two sides, and one is clearly working against America. America sees it, and America will remember in the next several elections.
 
2013-10-03 06:07:33 PM  

guestguy: SkinnyHead: guestguy: No, the Republicans are trying to tie something to the CR that has no business being there...they're trying to change a settled law by holding the government hostage.  They have reasonable changes to propose?  Great, go through the proper channels to do so!  The Democrats should never compromise when tactics like this are used, or they will do it every single time they don't get their way.

Who says that provisions cannot be attached to a CR?  Democrats have done it in the past.  It's not like some sort of criminal act.  The House has the same right to participate in decision making as the Senate.  The House is trying to work with the Senate to solve the impasse, but the Senate refuses to talk.

Do you have examples of what Democrats have attached to it in the past?  Was it attempting to ram through changes to a settled law which have repeatedly failed to make it through the normal channels?  It's not a criminal act, but that doesn't make it any less reckless or underhanded, and it certainly doesn't shift the blame for the shutdown to the Democrats for refusing to capitulate to the demands of hostage takers.


I've been hearing about clean vs unclean CR disputes for decades.  It's nothing new.  Instead of complaining about the procedure and shutting down the government because the CR passed by the house was "unclean," why aren't they talking about their objections to the compromise CR.  Democrats should be explaining to constituents why they think they should get taxpayer subsidies to pay for Obamacare exchanges, and they should explain why they think those perks are so important that they got to shut down the government to keep them.  They should also be explaining why big businesses get a delay in their Obamacare mandates, but individuals must be penalized.  Explain the fairness in that.
 
2013-10-03 06:07:38 PM  
hubiestubert: By "win this" I suspect they mean with the Idiot Brigade giving them more cash that they can ill afford to part with. This whole mess has been about a cash grab since McCain lost. It has been about piling up cash, and as much influence as possible with the gullible and inattentive, and yes, it IS working.

The problem is that it's shrinking The Big Tent to pup size, and it relies on drawing up districts to keep control, to the point if ridiculousness. It is a strategy predicated on only looking at the small picture, and going against Conservative pillars of prudence and long term strategy. It is all small unit tactics, while losing any thought to what's next.

It is exactly why I left the party: pants on head retardedness and an abandonment of anything looking like sense...


You know, it just occurred to me that they are farking using MBA thinking here.  God knows how many times I've seen MBAs espouse the theory that the way to maximize your long-term profitability is *OBVIOUSLY* by maximizing each quarter's profitability.  And they look at you funny when you tell them they're completely farking full of shiat.

... because, you know, there's *no such thing* as a step function.

/Right after the lawyers, right after the politicians, right after the televangelists, right after the telemarketers, we go after the MBAs.
//seen too many good companies go down the tubes shortly after the MBAs get hold of it.
///and that is *exactly* what the GOTP's "thought processes" is working towards...
 
2013-10-03 06:21:16 PM  
The elephant in the room is that the Sequestration Budget the House was to pass was ITSELF a huge compromise by the Democrats, and this artificial tragedy is the Republican wing proving they don't negotiate in good faith, up to crashing the economy to double dip? Doesn't this justify and require the Democratic party presume that "refusal to negotiate with terrorists" is in fact the political reality?
 
2013-10-03 06:29:08 PM  
The GOP is basically Walter White. They think they're doing it for noble reasons like family, but it's really all for greed and vengeance. At this point they're barely recognizable from what they used to be. They're constantly sinking to new moral lows, winning their confrontations due to a combination of cunning, ballsiness, and a willingness to jump into bed with even more loathsome psychopaths while reasonable people underestimate just how far they'll go to win.

So of course, like Walter, they're totally unphased by how sickened people are of them once they see past the bullshiat to what is really going on. They think all they need to do is find the right combination of words to support their bullshiat story and everyone will be on their side.
 
2013-10-03 06:43:02 PM  

SkinnyHead: WayToBlue: SkinnyHead

The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution. You don't need to take a poll to know that. They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.

You mean a solution to the problem they caused, after getting all of what they wanted in budget cuts (you know the actual point of a budget CR)? That's the problem they're looking to "solve," right?

If I mug you and then you catch up with me, is it appropriate for me to ask to keep half of your money? Do I get to say you aren't working for a solution if you refuse? Why aren't you working with me, just give me half your money and this can be over!

The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse that exists between the House and Senate when it comes to ironing out differences in the provisions of the continuing resolution.  The House is willing to compromise but the Senate is not.  That's the problem.  Your mugging analogy is completely off track.  Harry Reid does not own the government. The House is not trying to take something that belongs to Harry Reid. The Constitution requires the agreement of both houses to fund the government.  One side is trying to do that and the other side is not.  Harry Reid has shut down the government because he stubbornly refuses to work with the House.


Then tell Boehner to let the House vote on the clean CR and this can all go away.
 
2013-10-03 06:49:38 PM  

SkinnyHead: guestguy: SkinnyHead: guestguy: No, the Republicans are trying to tie something to the CR that has no business being there...they're trying to change a settled law by holding the government hostage.  They have reasonable changes to propose?  Great, go through the proper channels to do so!  The Democrats should never compromise when tactics like this are used, or they will do it every single time they don't get their way.

Who says that provisions cannot be attached to a CR?  Democrats have done it in the past.  It's not like some sort of criminal act.  The House has the same right to participate in decision making as the Senate.  The House is trying to work with the Senate to solve the impasse, but the Senate refuses to talk.

Do you have examples of what Democrats have attached to it in the past?  Was it attempting to ram through changes to a settled law which have repeatedly failed to make it through the normal channels?  It's not a criminal act, but that doesn't make it any less reckless or underhanded, and it certainly doesn't shift the blame for the shutdown to the Democrats for refusing to capitulate to the demands of hostage takers.

I've been hearing about clean vs unclean CR disputes for decades.  It's nothing new.  Instead of complaining about the procedure and shutting down the government because the CR passed by the house was "unclean," why aren't they talking about their objections to the compromise CR.  Democrats should be explaining to constituents why they think they should get taxpayer subsidies to pay for Obamacare exchanges, and they should explain why they think those perks are so important that they got to shut down the government to keep them.  They should also be explaining why big businesses get a delay in their Obamacare mandates, but individuals must be penalized.  Explain the fairness in that.


The ACA is law. It was reviewed by the Supreme Court and declared constitutional as per the US Constitution. Period. End of story. If you want to repeal it, fine, do that another time.
 
2013-10-03 06:59:40 PM  
The Republicans are trying to solve the impasse

i.imgur.com
 
2013-10-03 07:15:36 PM  

Zeppelininthesky: The ACA is law. It was reviewed by the Supreme Court and declared constitutional as per the US Constitution. Period. End of story. If you want to repeal it, fine, do that another time.


You need to update your spin.  The impasse is not about repealing Obamacare.  It's about giving people a one-year delay in individual mandate penalties and it's about ending Obamacare subsidies for congress members, something that was never part of the original law.
 
2013-10-03 07:31:46 PM  
All of this is going to make for some great television when they reboot The West Wing in a decade or so.
 
2013-10-03 07:32:18 PM  

SkinnyHead: Zeppelininthesky: The ACA is law. It was reviewed by the Supreme Court and declared constitutional as per the US Constitution. Period. End of story. If you want to repeal it, fine, do that another time.

You need to update your spin.  The impasse is not about repealing Obamacare.  It's about giving people a one-year delay in individual mandate penalties and it's about ending Obamacare subsidies for congress members, something that was never part of the original law.


Which will do what, exactly? The funding for the law is mandatory spending. This is not what this was about. This was about discretionary spending.

This is not a debate or compromise. This about grandstanding and political brinkmanship. A clean CR has been passed to Boehner, but he refuses to bring it for a vote because he is trying to appease the tea party.
 
2013-10-03 07:42:02 PM  

Zeppelininthesky: This is not a debate or compromise. This about grandstanding and political brinkmanship. A clean CR has been passed to Boehner, but he refuses to bring it for a vote because he is trying to appease the tea party.


Has this thread been godwin'd yet? If not: John Boehner is Neville Chamberlain, the Tea Party is Nazi Germany, the continuing resolution is the Sudetenland, the debt ceiling is Poland, and shiat's about to get real ugly.
 
2013-10-03 07:50:40 PM  

incendi: Zeppelininthesky: This is not a debate or compromise. This about grandstanding and political brinkmanship. A clean CR has been passed to Boehner, but he refuses to bring it for a vote because he is trying to appease the tea party.

Has this thread been godwin'd yet? If not: John Boehner is Neville Chamberlain, the Tea Party is Nazi Germany, the continuing resolution is the Sudetenland, the debt ceiling is Poland, and shiat's about to get real ugly.


In Chamberlain's defense, the appeasement strategy bought the UK time to get its own military in gear.  Had England picked at fight with the German warmacht before that, the second world war would have been much, much shorter.  They just weren't ready to take on Germany at the time.  Chamberlain often gets the short shrift on those discussions, but the truth is, there wasn't much else he could do.

Boehner's an ass, though, and doesn't deserve defense.  His party animated the monster, they don't get sympathy when it threatens to choke the life out of him unless he does its bidding.
 
2013-10-03 07:51:02 PM  

SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.


Even as a troll you are a liar.  The small group of extremists who are controlling GOP leadership and forcing this situation most DEFINITELY do not want the two sides to work together.  They don't want a solution, since their view is that any solution would be a compromise.

Want to understand what this is all about?  Go read the Freepers.  They can tell you everything you need to know.  The establishment GOP is just scared of being primaried out of existence.

So, as usual, you are full of shiat.
 
2013-10-03 07:53:34 PM  

SkinnyHead: it's about ending Obamacare subsidies for congress members


whut.
 
2013-10-03 08:37:15 PM  

Rwa2play: Ambivalence: "I think we're going to win this." I don't know how they can still think this.

Custer thought he could still win at Little Big Horn...


That would make a pretty hilarious PS.
 
2013-10-03 08:37:16 PM  

SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.


Exactly.

For example, today Obama called Boehner, Pelosi, Reid, and McConnel to the White House to hash things out.  And eight Republicans called a press conference where they sat at one side of a table all by themselves, with no evidence that they'd invited anyone else to the table.  Plus a Republican Congressman, rather than trying to see what he could do to negotiate a reopening of the government, went to the WWII memorial and bawled out a park ranger for closing it.
 
2013-10-03 08:43:52 PM  

EyeballKid: Kentucky voters: DERRRRRRRP DERRRRRRP STIKITDEMLIBZ FORR MORR YEERZ!!!!


Maybe not.  McConnell is struggling against Allison Grimes.
 
2013-10-03 08:44:02 PM  
Amateurs.

My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.
 
2013-10-03 09:03:02 PM  
dickfreckle:

And I'm trying to quit smoking this week, so no one better test me on this.

i1.ytimg.com

/feels your pain
//hot hot hot
 
2013-10-03 09:07:43 PM  

CorporatePerson: The GOP is basically Walter White.


Except that Walter White is smart.  Except when he decided to melt through that zip-tie on his wrist with a frayed wire, scorching the center of his wrist directly adjacent to a major blood vessel.  Why wouldn't you grab something and slip it underneath the tie to protect your skin first?  Or burn it off on the side of your wrist?  God that was an idiotic scene.
 
2013-10-03 09:34:30 PM  

andrewagill: Amateurs.

My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.


lulz - I remember when that happened
 
2013-10-03 10:27:49 PM  
SkinnyHead

WayToBlue: The republicans created the impasse. They are the only reason there is an impasse. They are the problem.

We got an impasse because the two houses that must agree cannot agree.


Actually it seems likely they can agree, which is why Boehner won't even let a vote happen on a clean CR. That said, the real reason we're here is that the derpiest factions of the gop insisted on adding a poison pill to a budget bill, knowing full well what it would mean. Pretending otherwise is a joke.

so now they're trying to change established laws, which has no business in a budget CR.

What are they trying to change about the established law? You mean giving people a one year delay in the individual mandate. Obama has given big businesses a one year delay in their mandates, and he's not even a lawmaker. So what's the problem in giving the same consideration to ordinary people?


The implementers of ACA made it clear they weren't ready to handle businesses yet, so they have deferred it. This seems only prudent. Would you prefer they went ahead with it anyway?

And the other issue is whether Reid and other members of congress can keep their Obamacare subsidies. Those subsidies are not a part of "established laws," they are a gift of taxpayer money that this administration gave to congress members. It is not unreasonable to defund that giveaway.

You know that congress and their staff have been getting their health insurance mostly paid for before any of this, right? This has shifted around the money a bit, but we were always paying for this. This is the federal equivalent of an employer paying for most of an employees healthcare, something that many companies do, while still leveraging the exchanges set up by ACA. I don't love how they're handling it, but the general idea is sound, and it's also no money to speak of. A tiny fraction of the money already burned by this shut down. It's mostly just a tea party talking point.
 
2013-10-03 10:41:15 PM  

Carn: They knew it was hot.  "I'm all wired up here".


THIS.  The first thing turtle said, then the proceed to say all that anyway.  I have no idea how these imbeciles can think that lowering their voice a little would stop the mic from picking up their voices.  This isn't 1965 mic technology here.
 
2013-10-03 11:02:37 PM  
First of all, they will "win" this because, for them, "winning" is just "maintaining job security".  They can just settle in, adopt any stance against any given Democrat, and their faithful followers will continue to vote for them.  They don't need to increase approval ratings because the only approval that matters is the voting majority of their district.  And those approvals are not given on a basis of judgement; they're bought with marketing campaigns.  So why change?
 
2013-10-04 05:50:18 AM  

UrukHaiGuyz: SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.

Hence the 17% approval rating for the GOP's handling of the shutdown, vs Obama's current 43% approval rating. Thanks for being the voice of reason.


Ignore button. Use it. Stop letting him derail threads.

As for TFA, I could not possibly be less surprised that the echo chamber has turned out to be wrong again. But if it means getting these dipshiats out, I'll gladly participate. Yeah, you go Republicans, you're really winning this one.
 
2013-10-04 08:24:42 AM  

SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.


You'd think so, but no. There are many people who actually believe that Obama/The Senate are the result of the shutdown. Even though The Senate already compromised, they gave the Republican's the funding level that they wanted. Then the idiots started asking for more. This whole mess is avoidable, and the Republican's were winning until they went too far in their demands. Yet, people on here and elsewhere actually believe Democrats are the problem. There are many issues where both parties suck, but the Republican party owns this shutdown. Its theirs, all theirs.
 
2013-10-04 09:57:41 AM  

jjorsett: guestguy: Do you have examples of what Democrats have attached to it in the past?  Was it attempting to ram through changes to a settled law which have repeatedly failed to make it through the normal channels?  It's not a criminal act, but that doesn't make it any less reckless or underhanded, and it certainly doesn't shift the blame for the shutdown to the Democrats for refusing to capitulate to the demands of hostage takers.

The "settled law" that said there was an employer mandate and a requirement for Congress to eat its own dog food? THAT settled law, the one that Obama waived his magic wand over and changed without Congress doing jack? [Yeah, I used 'waived' deliberately]. If the President and Democrats feel that Obamacare is infinitely malleable, the Republicans are entitled to think of it that way too, and to fight to get some of their own changes. And at least they're doing it through legit means and not just ignoring what the law plainly says when it becomes inconvenient.



The existence of waivers was written into the law itself, if you think specific waivers were underhanded or somehow illegal, I suggest you read this article:  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-obamacare-waivers-exe m ptions-hyperbole-20131002,0,6344095.story

All of that aside, what you just tried to do was deflect, and in doing so implied that the shutdown is owned by the Republicans (i.e. Obama did something we think is bad, so the Republicans can do something bad too!).  Even if what you were saying about Obama making changes to the law without Congress' consent was true (and it isn't), that doesn't hold a candle to shutting down the government until you get your way...because that impacts a lot of people directly (forced unpaid time-off, services unavailable, etc.) as well as damages the economy.
 
2013-10-04 10:01:14 AM  

Ambivalence: "I think we're going to win this." I don't know how they can still think this.


They were convinced Romney was going to crush Obama in 2012 as well. The Republican party has surrounded itself with such a vast propaganda apparatus, and buys into its validity so deeply, that they are entirely detached from reality. It is likely that the very mass-mailing pressure companies they created to do things like game the FCC have been flooding their congressional offices with letters supporting the shutdown or blaming it on Obama. Cons have cut themselves off from honest public opinion; they've gerrymandered their districts and the States so that less overall votes mean bigger wins for them, created their own news and polling organizations to distort not only public opinion but how public opinion is reported to them, and wrapped everything they do in layers of sophistry and bullshiat so deepthat they've forgotten it is all hogwash for the rubes in the first place. So much of what they do is manipulation and con-artistry, that they've genuinely started to believe in it.
 
2013-10-04 10:07:50 AM  

hubiestubert: By "win this" I suspect they mean with the Idiot Brigade giving them more cash that they can ill afford to part with. This whole mess has been about a cash grab since McCain lost. It has been about piling up cash, and as much influence as possible with the gullible and inattentive, and yes, it IS working.

The problem is that it's shrinking The Big Tent to pup size, and it relies on drawing up districts to keep control, to the point if ridiculousness. It is a strategy predicated on only looking at the small picture, and going against Conservative pillars of prudence and long term strategy. It is all small unit tactics, while losing any thought to what's next.

It is exactly why I left the party: pants on head retardedness and an abandonment of anything looking like sense...


From what I've been reading lately, it looks like they're doing a pretty good job of alienating the business class as well. Obama's been meeting with business leaders rather frequently lately; if the business class becomes convinced that the Democrats are more reliable on these issues than the Republicans, that could mean a fairly dire future for the GOP.
 
2013-10-04 10:15:32 AM  

Isitoveryet: WOO HOO! i was hoping the hot mic conversation would be put on the board.

SkinnyHead: The American people expect the two side to work together to find a solution.  You don't need to take a poll to know that.  They can see which side is trying to work for a solution and which side is not.


i agree a solution is necessary however I'm also willing to suggest that the problem was not created by both parties.

Also, the Republicans want to win something? how about putting your party's ridiculous  demands aside and do something for the country? please? for once since President Obama was elected?


The best response Obama could have given to that "we're being disrespected" comment that came out yesterday would have been arranging a special message last night or today where he just sits there as says "I do respect you Republicans. You're all such big, strapping men and demure, courteous ladies. You're smart, and strong, and highly attractive. I would love to have you all over to tea tomorrow; you can wear your prettiest dresses and I'll hand-make eggsalad sandwiches for all of you. Now that I've promised I don't hate you and that I won't hurt your egos, can you please go do your goddamn jobs and give me a budget to sign?"
 
2013-10-04 10:15:37 AM  

SkinnyHead: I've been hearing about clean vs unclean CR disputes for decades.  It's nothing new.



So you don't have a comparable example?

SkinnyHead: Instead of complaining about the procedure and shutting down the government because the CR passed by the house was "unclean," why aren't they talking about their objections to the compromise CR.



Because if you compromise you are legitimizing the use of a dangerous, sleazy procedure to make changes to an existing law; changes that they have been unable or unwilling to make through the normal channels!  Jesus...how many times does that have to be explained to you?

SkinnyHead: Democrats should be explaining to constituents why they think they should get taxpayer subsidies to pay for Obamacare exchanges, and they should explain why they think those perks are so important that they got to shut down the government to keep them.  They should also be explaining why big businesses get a delay in their Obamacare mandates, but individuals must be penalized.  Explain the fairness in that.



The bolded is bullshiat spin that the GOP is desperately attempting to foist onto the general public, and you're doing everything you can to help.  They 100% own this shutdown, and there are plenty of Republicans out there who even agree.  As for the rest: read this article:  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-obamacare-waivers-exe m ptions-hyperbole-20131002,0,6344095.story
 
2013-10-04 10:28:32 AM  

glassa: NEITHER group wants to compromise.  NEITHER.

But only one side gets the blame for it.

At least Clinton was willing to talk & compromise.

They're all a bunch of spoiled children.


In accepting a Continuing Resolution, which is in-line with the ridiculous Paul Ryan budget, instead of insisting on the House Republicans doing the primary job they are required by the Constitution to do -supply a complete federal budget- the Democrats are already compromising. What more compromising can they do? Allow the Republicans to refuse funding to a legitimate, lawful part of the government they don't like? Accept the Rs passing one budget covering one agency at a time, and written how the Rs would like it? That's not compromise; the word you're looking for there is "acquiescing". Conceding to that sort of behavior guarantees that the social programs Dems support will either be gutted or never funded at all, which is precisely why that snake Rafael Cruz suggested it.
 
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