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(CBS News)   News NSA chief tries to calm fears about agency's activities. Fark: by admitting the agency tried to track the location of every American via their cell phone   (cbsnews.com) divider line 69
    More: Scary, NSA, Americans, Clapper, Intelligence Committee, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, secret polices, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, Ron Wyden  
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3626 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2013 at 9:24 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-03 08:27:07 AM
The whole universe of facts that have come out should arguably trigger a massive round of housecleaning in Washington. But it won't because we're all such partisan stooges that we can't possibly demand the people in our own party be held accountable. That's like voting for the other side. So instead, we'll just switch the party in charge from time to time and never deal with the core problem. Yay us.
 
2013-10-03 09:11:44 AM
It's OK.   they pinkie promise they won't use that information. They just wanted to see if it was possible.
 
2013-10-03 09:15:26 AM
Great.  Now they know I browse Facebook when I'm taking a dump.
 
2013-10-03 09:28:53 AM

labman: It's OK.   they pinkie promise they won't use that information. They just wanted to see if it was possible.


Why didn't they just ask Google? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Google knows more about us than the NSA.
 
2013-10-03 09:29:55 AM
Is this another thread where we get mad at what the NSA isn't doing, but could theoretically be doing?
 
2013-10-03 09:31:49 AM
Can you imagine the buttrage if all this NSA information came out under a GOP administration?
 
2013-10-03 09:33:58 AM

Skleenar: Is this another thread where we get mad at what the NSA isn't doing, but could theoretically be doing?


If it's possible, it's happening.
 
2013-10-03 09:34:04 AM

kg2095: labman: It's OK.   they pinkie promise they won't use that information. They just wanted to see if it was possible.

Why didn't they just ask Google? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Google knows more about us than the NSA.


Funny thing is that I bet many (not all, thank G-d!) who yell about government overreach would have no problem with a corporation knowing everything about them. Because in their eyes, "A corporation is 'better' than the government."
 
2013-10-03 09:34:25 AM
*yawn*

whatever.
 
2013-10-03 09:35:33 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Can you imagine the buttrage if all this NSA information came out under a GOP administration?


It actually did, only then it was worse because the Administration asserted that there was no role for court oversight of their actions.

So, we don't need to imagine it.  The buttrage is greater today, and arguably the situation is in one respect significantly better.
 
2013-10-03 09:36:55 AM
Where are all the liberals on this issue?  All the so called progressives are falling all over themselves to cheer Obamacare but who is carrying the weight arguing against this trouncing of civil liberties?  That evil right wing, tool of the 1% Rand Paul.

Say what you will about Paul but he's distinguishable from Cruz and Christie, who scream loudly when it's politically beneficial but shut up when it's less comfortable (Syria, snooping, drones).  Only Rand Paul has put principle before party and politics.

And it's shameful that the supposed left wing of American politics has done little to support Paul and the few who sympathize with him.

What this country needs is a third and fourth party-- greens and libertarians.   These two are the same thing with slightly different agendas, both owned by corporations that have corrupted the state.
 
2013-10-03 09:40:05 AM

Skleenar: Is this another thread where we get mad at what the NSA isn't doing, but could theoretically be doing?


No, this is a thread where we get mad at them for what they've admitted that they did do... even if it was "only" a pilot program or test.

On the bright side, testing of surreptitiously implanted RFID chips in unsuspecting citizens seems to have only been discussed. Probably.
 
2013-10-03 09:40:15 AM

nickdaisy: All the so called progressives are falling all over themselves to cheer Obamacare but who is carrying the weight arguing against this trouncing of civil liberties? That evil right wing, tool of the 1% Rand Paul.


You really have a lot of justification for outrage at the hypocrisy of the libtards in your imagination.

All I can say is that I usually get just as much flack from the left and the right when I pop into these threads and try to suggest that a lot of the rhetoric being thrown around isn't really based on actual facts, but on extrapolation.
 
2013-10-03 09:43:46 AM
12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...

I'm so glad that this gigantic overreach of the NSA is only targeting 'terrorists'.

/Fairly certain I mentioned this exact possibility several months ago, and I was blown off by most of you farkers as a tin foil hat nutter.
 
2013-10-03 09:47:10 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Can you imagine the buttrage if all this NSA information came out under a GOP administration?



i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com


Almost all of this DID come out during a GOP Administration.

Sadly, the silence from Congress and from the US People was deafening. I am pretty much convinced we are going to have to rewrite Franklin right on this:

Any society that would  give up a little liberty and security to gain his  e-Pleasures will deserve neither and lose both. He who gives up  freedom or  safety deserves neither.
 
2013-10-03 09:49:38 AM
And people thought that I was some crazy Luddite when I told them that I did not have a cell phone for such a long time.  Finally got one about two years ago.  Really don't use it much.  But I feel a tiny bit of vindication for my cellphone owning refusal.
 
2013-10-03 09:49:42 AM

MrSplifferton: 12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...


I'm surprised they didn't try to weasel their way out of this by describing the targets as "persons of interest"
 
2013-10-03 09:50:06 AM

DarkSoulNoHope: kg2095: labman: It's OK.   they pinkie promise they won't use that information. They just wanted to see if it was possible.

Why didn't they just ask Google? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Google knows more about us than the NSA.

Funny thing is that I bet many (not all, thank G-d!) who yell about government overreach would have no problem with a corporation knowing everything about them. Because in their eyes, "A corporation is 'better' than the government."


If I don't like what a corporation is doing, I can avoid using that corporation.   Don't like Google?  Don't use Chrome, don't use Gmail, don't go to Google.com for searches, etc.

Plus, of Google doesn't like what you are doing, they can't arrest you.

Government, on the other hand, is something that you can't really avoid, and if you piss off the wrong people in government, they can make your life very, very difficult.

The only way to avoid a government you don't like is to move.  Which is fairly hard when it's the federal government, and anywhere you're likely to go is probably going to be just as bad, and more than likely, much worse.
 
2013-10-03 09:53:00 AM
filmonic.com

He's not the NSA chief Washington wants...he's the NSA chief Washington deserves...
 
2013-10-03 09:54:32 AM

eyeq360: And people thought that I was some crazy Luddite when I told them that I did not have a cell phone for such a long time.  Finally got one about two years ago.  Really don't use it much.  But I feel a tiny bit of vindication for my cellphone owning refusal.


I still don't own one, and very rarely take the distaffbopper's cell when I judge that the ability to communicate is more important than the privacy invasion.

Once the distaffbopper gets her ham radio license, though, the times were I'll need to take her phone with me will drop to zero.

One of the ironies of modern communications is that more archaic forms (like ham radio) are more secure against systematic monitoring, even though they may be more vulnerable to casual eavesdropping.
 
2013-10-03 09:57:33 AM

DarkSoulNoHope: kg2095: labman: It's OK.   they pinkie promise they won't use that information. They just wanted to see if it was possible.

Why didn't they just ask Google? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Google knows more about us than the NSA.

Funny thing is that I bet many (not all, thank G-d!) who yell about government overreach would have no problem with a corporation knowing everything about them. Because in their eyes, "A corporation is 'better' than the government."



Well, a corporation IS better that the government. No one can argue against that based on facts. Emotions is another thing, but when one resorts to that one looks like a fool.

Any corporation who took our information without our consent and voluntary cooperation would be in a world of butthurt from the government (unless the government told them they could). But when the government does it, speaking out about it is hate speech and damn near treason in their eyes.

And any corporation that took my information without me providing and giving consent would not be doing so for long, because the resulting lawsuit would make it MY corporation, and the shiat would stop (again, as long as the government didn't give them permission to do so).

All that said, some companies I admit do engage in such shenanigans. Those are the ones working in lockstep with the government. And I for one blame the government. It takes two to tango, but the company is only doing what the government says they can. The government always has final, ultimate say.
 
2013-10-03 09:58:35 AM
Is that Heisenberg?
 
2013-10-03 09:58:41 AM
Guess he neglected to mention tracking people by their Express Lane passes.
 
2013-10-03 10:00:13 AM
johnbardi.edublogs.org

/It stands to point out that Hope and Change still dominates the scoreboard against GOP Minority Outreach
 
2013-10-03 10:09:04 AM

MrSplifferton: 12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...

I'm so glad that this gigantic overreach of the NSA is only targeting 'terrorists'.



Those are just the cases employees freely confessed to when asked if there was anything they wanted to come clean about, if memory serves.
 
2013-10-03 10:10:50 AM
bligbi.com

Dem's fightin words pardner...
 
2013-10-03 10:15:51 AM
How many NSA contractors have been laid off in the last two days? Could be a lot of Snowdens who just lost their security clearance because they are financially compromised..
 
2013-10-03 10:19:10 AM
Oh dear, I hope the file that shows where I was on May, 20th, 2008 was deleted or overwritten.
 
2013-10-03 10:20:45 AM

generallyso: MrSplifferton: 12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...

I'm so glad that this gigantic overreach of the NSA is only targeting 'terrorists'.


Those are just the cases employees freely confessed to when asked if there was anything they wanted to come clean about, if memory serves.


I'm guessing that the general response here will be: 'Meh, I'm not a terrorist and my SO doesn't work for the NSA so I have nothing to worry about!'
 
2013-10-03 10:24:05 AM

generallyso: MrSplifferton: 12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...

I'm so glad that this gigantic overreach of the NSA is only targeting 'terrorists'.


Those are just the cases employees freely confessed to when asked if there was anything they wanted to come clean about, if memory serves.


and if you parse their language a bit further, it might only be official NSA people in Fort Meade, not off-site, and not contractors.

so, just as we don't torture people, we just have them end up in Egypt and, what do you know, they happen to get tortured, there "aren't abuses" because the elites have structured plausible deniability for the rare times they appear before Congress and don't just lie their asses off.
 
2013-10-03 10:25:37 AM
"That guy?  On the parking lot cam?  The one getting into his Chevy?"

"Yeah?"

"He's cheating on his wife, his dog is pregnant, his phone has the home number of a child molester priest on it, his wife spent his 401k already on vacations and he deals cards left handed, but he's not left handed."

"Have you considered using some of your vacation time?"
 
2013-10-03 10:31:46 AM

MrSplifferton: generallyso: MrSplifferton: 12 cases of employees using the NSA spying systems to spy on significant others...

I'm so glad that this gigantic overreach of the NSA is only targeting 'terrorists'.


Those are just the cases employees freely confessed to when asked if there was anything they wanted to come clean about, if memory serves.

I'm guessing that the general response here will be: 'Meh, I'm not a terrorist and my SO doesn't work for the NSA so I have nothing to worry about!'


people who say those words have the best skeletons in their closets
 
2013-10-03 10:36:43 AM

UberDave: Great.  Now they know I browse Facebook when I'm taking a dump.


And now we know.

You should really put more fiber in your diet. Just saying...
 
2013-10-03 10:37:50 AM
If this is abhorrent to folks, why, on earth, would anyone voluntarily turn over the rest of their private information to the Federal Data Hub of 0bamacare? 0bamacare shares all that data with 5 Federal agencies, DOJ, SSA, DHS and IRS have absolutely nothing to do with healthcare. Only HHS has anything to do with healthcare. And the NSA picks up the rest covertly.

The people are being data mined and cataloged.

Boggles the mind.
 
2013-10-03 10:38:16 AM

No Time To Explain: people who say those words have the best skeletons in their closets


And therein lies the problem.  The NSA isn't just sniffing for bad guys, they're sniffing for anything.  The NSA is potentially the biggest organized blackmail ring in history.
 
2013-10-03 10:48:04 AM

BitwiseShift: How many NSA contractors have been laid off in the last two days? Could be a lot of Snowdens who just lost their security clearance because they are financially compromised..


That appears to be one of the big concerns that Clapper has, that government employees with security clearances, in order to pay their bills on time, will look to selling NSA/DIA/NRO/CIA/etc. secrets to foreign governments.
 
2013-10-03 10:48:44 AM

Skleenar: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Can you imagine the buttrage if all this NSA information came out under a GOP administration?

It actually did, only then it was worse because the Administration asserted that there was no role for court oversight of their actions.

So, we don't need to imagine it.  The buttrage is greater today, and arguably the situation is in one respect significantly better.


You know what happened to the lawsuit about spying under Bush?

Obama shut it down.

late Friday afternoon, the Obama DOJ filed the government's Weeners to EFF's lawsuit (.pdf), the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush's NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the "state secrets" privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope - never before advanced even by the Bush administration - that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.

In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad "state secrets" privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and - even if what they're doing is blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal - you are barred from suing them unless they "willfully disclose" to the public what they have learned.
 
2013-10-03 10:53:36 AM

nickdaisy: Where are all the liberals on this issue?  All the so called progressives are falling all over themselves to cheer Obamacare but who is carrying the weight arguing against this trouncing of civil liberties?  That evil right wing, tool of the 1% Rand Paul.

Say what you will about Paul but he's distinguishable from Cruz and Christie, who scream loudly when it's politically beneficial but shut up when it's less comfortable (Syria, snooping, drones).  Only Rand Paul has put principle before party and politics.

And it's shameful that the supposed left wing of American politics has done little to support Paul and the few who sympathize with him.

What this country needs is a third and fourth party-- greens and libertarians.   These two are the same thing with slightly different agendas, both owned by corporations that have corrupted the state.


Funny you should mention this. I was about to post "If we agree to defund ObamaCare, will you let us defund the NSA too?"
 
2013-10-03 10:58:59 AM

BullBearMS: You know what happened to the lawsuit about spying under Bush?

Obama shut it down.


No, he didn't. The Department of Justice made some super radical claims, and the court has allowed the case to proceed, ruling in favor of the EFF at least twice since that article was written.

Here's the EFF link about the case, which is updated a lot more frequently than your copypasta Salon article from 2009. Yeah, I get it, Obama is just as bad as Bush on civil liberties, but if you're going to go to the same talking point over and over, you might as well update the talking point to show that the good guys have been winning.
 
2013-10-03 11:04:18 AM
 
2013-10-03 11:05:13 AM

UberDave: Great.  Now they know I browse Facebook when I'm taking a dump.


I'm taking a dump right now!
 
2013-10-03 11:08:13 AM
Didn't anyone else realize that was the whole reason behind Obamaphones? "Here, since you can't afford to buy your own tracking device, we will give you one for free".
 
2013-10-03 11:08:56 AM

phyrkrakr: No, he didn't. The Department of Justice made some super radical claims, and the court has allowed the case to proceed, ruling in favor of the EFF at least twice since that article was written.


So the Obama administration did not eventually succeed in shutting down the case?
 
2013-10-03 11:12:09 AM
A quote from the Glenn Greenwald reddit AMA the other day:

glenngreenwaldGlenn Greenwald[S] 46 points 58 minutes ago
"Do you see the US Democratic Party as hopelessly corrupt in terms of orchestrating progressive change?"

I never see any political questions as hopeless or unchangeable, but consider this:
When I first began writing in 2005, I was focused primarily on the Bush NSA program, and I was able to build a large readership quickly because so many Democrats, progressives, liberal bloggers, etc, were so supportive of the work I was doing. That continued to be true through 2008. Now, a mere four later, Democrats have become the most vehement defenders of the NSA and the most vicious attackers of my work on the NSA - often, some of the very same people cheering so loudly in 2006 and 2007 are the ones protesting most loudly and viciously now. Gee, I wonder what changed? In the answer lies all you need to know about the Democratic Party.
 
2013-10-03 11:14:48 AM
1. No cell phone
2. Wyoming

... sometimes it's good to be a hick
 
2013-10-03 11:16:17 AM
To add to the above, I don't think you can be progressive AND a Democrat right now, nor can you be conservative AND a Republican. The two parties have merged into something (corporatocracy?) which very much excludes progressives and conservatives altogether.
 
2013-10-03 11:18:02 AM
GDISM, it is not illegal when WE do it.

/what was that "All men" crap?
 
2013-10-03 11:19:29 AM

ex-nuke: Didn't anyone else realize that was the whole reason behind Obamaphones? "Here, since you can't afford to buy your own tracking device, we will give you one for free".


They should make that public so you can pick a good neighborhood when house hunting
 
2013-10-03 11:20:46 AM
 
2013-10-03 11:28:18 AM

WhoopAssWayne: A quote from the Glenn Greenwald reddit AMA the other day:

glenngreenwaldGlenn Greenwald[S] 46 points 58 minutes ago
"Do you see the US Democratic Party as hopelessly corrupt in terms of orchestrating progressive change?"

I never see any political questions as hopeless or unchangeable, but consider this:
When I first began writing in 2005, I was focused primarily on the Bush NSA program, and I was able to build a large readership quickly because so many Democrats, progressives, liberal bloggers, etc, were so supportive of the work I was doing. That continued to be true through 2008. Now, a mere four later, Democrats have become the most vehement defenders of the NSA and the most vicious attackers of my work on the NSA - often, some of the very same people cheering so loudly in 2006 and 2007 are the ones protesting most loudly and viciously now. Gee, I wonder what changed? In the answer lies all you need to know about the Democratic Party.


The reason I'm such an unrelenting Greenwald fanboy is that he hasn't changed his positions one single iota from the Bush days

Everything he opposed under Bush, he has continued to oppose just as vehemently under Obama.

It's nice to see liberals with principles stick to their guns instead of trying to make lame ass excuses now that Obama's the one doing it..

I hadn't seen the IAmA yet, so I had to find the link.
 
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