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(BBC)   Belgium does death panels right: Man allowed to get euthanasia at 44 after three failed operations left him with incurable depression   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 48
    More: Cool, Belgium, death panels, transsexuals, Het Laatste Nieuws  
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4358 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2013 at 8:48 AM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-03 08:52:35 AM
It ran out of sexes to change to
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-10-03 08:54:43 AM
Dignity. When modern medicine fails you, and comes hat-in-hand to tell you they have not one clue as to how to help you the most decent thing they can do is admit they have no answers or hope for any, and then let you make a dignified exit rther than living every waking moment in pain or crushing depression.
 
2013-10-03 08:54:58 AM
It was a mercy killing, really; he'd lost interest in life. But now he's a jolly comfortable Chesterfield!
 
2013-10-03 08:57:38 AM
Approves:

www.michaelowencarroll.com
 
2013-10-03 08:58:14 AM
You do realize that's not a death panel, but more of a death option, right?
 
2013-10-03 09:01:01 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-10-03 09:01:17 AM
Three sex changes? Talk about the amazing , disappearing dangly bits; batman!
 
2013-10-03 09:01:43 AM
There's an operation for depression?
 
2013-10-03 09:04:12 AM

oryx: There's an operation for depression?


Usually involves putty, putty knife, and a plastic surgeon to fill in the depression and buff it out. So yeah.
 
2013-10-03 09:06:18 AM

gja: Dignity. When modern medicine fails you, and comes hat-in-hand to tell you they have not one clue as to how to help you the most decent thing they can do is admit they have no answers or hope for any, and then let you make a dignified exit rther than living every waking moment in pain or crushing depression.


And don't exclude the friends and family of somebody with incurable clinical depression (diagnosed). Sometimes there is a point where seeing somebody you love suffering is heartbreaking, and you find the compassion and empathy to understand that they need to go.

/pours out some 40
 
2013-10-03 09:06:21 AM

iheartscotch: dangly bits


i43.photobucket.com
 
2013-10-03 09:09:44 AM
Article is scant but sounds like they were not transgender but rather had severe psychological problems from their upbringing (and rejected gender). That shiat happens more often than you'd think. Many known instances of a parent raising a child the opposite gender (boys in dresses) until school age. It's not commonplace or anything but it's not exactly rare. =\

If they had been in the US if that were the case, they'd have been denied surgery and steered towards appropriate therapy. One of the main reasons that the requirements involve extensive therapy and living as your gender prior to surgery is that surgery is impossible to undo. It can be mitigated but...yeah. If someone who isn't trans has the surgery and realizes it's a mistake...they not only have their previous psych problems but a whole set of new ones.

I dunno if euthenasia was their best option, but it seems like they had some pretty farking bad medical advice previously.
 
2013-10-03 09:16:29 AM
Belgium rules.
I used to live there, but apart from that it's completely awesome. If you want proof watch In Bruges.
Unfortunately I wasn't euthanized during my stay there but I might return at some point and see what the options are, I feel a couple of euthanizes might just be what I need to kick-start my middle age.
 
2013-10-03 09:17:25 AM
Lady Indica

Article is scant but sounds like they were not transgender


*facepalm*

TFH form TFA: Belgian helped to die after three sex change operations

Elsewhere in TFA: He had three operations to change sex between 2009 and 2012.
Lern 2 reed.
 
2013-10-03 09:18:14 AM
s/form/from
 
2013-10-03 09:19:09 AM
Apparently they let anyone get youth in Asia these days, even the Belgians.
 
2013-10-03 09:21:51 AM
I honestly don't know why we don't have something similar in the US. Though I suppose we'd have to have an actually functional healthcare system first. I know I'd have preferred for my brother to seek euthanasia, which is said to be really quite peaceful for those who choose it (and after much talk with therapists), than to overdose in his home like he did.
 
2013-10-03 09:27:24 AM

oryx: There's an operation for depression?


It can be treated with deep brain stimulation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_brain_stimulation#Major_depression ), which involves implanting an electrode in a very precise location and an electrical stimulation unit similar to a pacemaker.  ...though from what I understand, it's relatively easy to "over-do" it and make a person so happy they'd sit around with a smile while their home burned down around them.

The brain is basically an electrochemical computer; there's no reason one shouldn't be able to modify it with a sufficiently refined understanding of its function.
 
2013-10-03 09:31:18 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

Article is scant but sounds like they were not transgender


*facepalm*



Or we can finish what you quoted from Lady Indica:

but rather had severe psychological problems from their upbringing (and rejected gender).

There are reasons that a lot of surgeons who perform these procedures require a person to have gone through extensive therapy beforehand - because there are other conditions that might make someone think they were transgendered but aren't. That appears to have happened here. And shiat like this makes it harder for people who really are transgendered.
 
2013-10-03 09:52:18 AM
bensimonds.files.wordpress.com

"Why should he have all the luck?"

You heard that in the voice of Alan Rickman in your head.
 
2013-10-03 09:56:21 AM

jshine: The brain is basically an electrochemical computer; there's no reason one shouldn't be able to modify it with a sufficiently refined understanding of its function.


images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-10-03 10:16:56 AM
He didn't Jesus hard enough. It's his fault.
 
2013-10-03 10:34:52 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

Article is scant but sounds like they were not transgender


*facepalm*

TFH form TFA: Belgian helped to die after three sex change operations

Elsewhere in TFA: He had three operations to change sex between 2009 and 2012.
Lern 2 reed.


Three sex changes. That's from female to male and back to female. So, not transgendered anymore. Back to the one she started with.
 
2013-10-03 10:43:12 AM

Trillian Astra: I honestly don't know why we don't have something similar in the US.


Because Jesus
 
2013-10-03 10:43:56 AM
There was a documentary about someone going overseas for euthanasia. Not sure if it was Belgium. i thought I remember it being Sweden or something. I can't remember the name but I watched it on netflix. It was very sad and bizarre to watch.
 
2013-10-03 10:47:09 AM
How goddarn hard is it to just commit suicide?

This selfish dude goes and has a bunch of doctors do it for him, and ends up costing the taxpayers.

Is no one concerned about the Belgian taxpayers?
 
2013-10-03 10:48:43 AM

abhorrent1: There was a documentary about someone going overseas for euthanasia. Not sure if it was Belgium. i thought I remember it being Sweden or something. I can't remember the name but I watched it on netflix. It was very sad and bizarre to watch.


Probably Switzerland, they have quite the monopoly on it in Europe, or did until the Belgians joined in.
 
2013-10-03 10:54:31 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

Article is scant but sounds like they were not transgender


*facepalm*

TFH form TFA: Belgian helped to die after three sex change operations

Elsewhere in TFA: He had three operations to change sex between 2009 and 2012.
Lern 2 reed.


"Transgender" is not the surgery. "Transgender" is being one sex in the brain and the opposite sex in the body. A transgender person might get surgery to make the body match the brain. Then they will be "transsexual". Some can't for medical reasons and so will just do their best to live with the body they have. They are transgender but not transsexual. It sounds like Nathan was transsexual but not transgender.

Gender = the identity inside
sex = the physical bits outside

You can change sex. You can't change gender. If you change the sex of someone who doesn't actually have that gender, you will irrevocably fark them up. The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

As Lady J pointed out, it sounds very much like the parents tried to impose gender, which Nancy lived with into adulthood, and as with Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer, the experiment failed miserably. Yeah, she should have gotten therapy instead of surgery.
 
2013-10-03 10:55:42 AM

YoOjo: abhorrent1: There was a documentary about someone going overseas for euthanasia. Not sure if it was Belgium. i thought I remember it being Sweden or something. I can't remember the name but I watched it on netflix. It was very sad and bizarre to watch.

Probably Switzerland, they have quite the monopoly on it in Europe, or did until the Belgians joined in.


Ah you're correct. It's called "The Suicide Tourist" It's very depressing.

This is the end. Don't remember how long the whole thing was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD1_sGZz8yo
 
2013-10-03 10:59:22 AM

ruta: Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

You can change sex. You can't change gender. If you change the sex of someone who doesn't actually have that gender, you will irrevocably fark them up. The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

As Lady J pointed out, it sounds very much like the parents tried to impose gender, which Nancy lived with into adulthood, and as with Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer, the experiment failed miserably. Yeah, she should have gotten therapy instead of surgery.


So what you are saying is that Nancy's "gender identity problem" was a mental issue. But not for the rest of the transgender crowd. It can't be changed. Unless it was changed mentally. Do I have that right?
 
2013-10-03 11:12:03 AM

Vitamin Pb: ruta: Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

You can change sex. You can't change gender. If you change the sex of someone who doesn't actually have that gender, you will irrevocably fark them up. The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

As Lady J pointed out, it sounds very much like the parents tried to impose gender, which Nancy lived with into adulthood, and as with Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer, the experiment failed miserably. Yeah, she should have gotten therapy instead of surgery.

So what you are saying is that Nancy's "gender identity problem" was a mental issue. But not for the rest of the transgender crowd. It can't be changed. Unless it was changed mentally. Do I have that right?


No.
 
2013-10-03 11:20:05 AM
Three sex changes? Male? .. Female? .. Politician?
 
2013-10-03 11:20:58 AM
This is why my brother and I have an agreement.  If I'm in a nursing home or hospital and I ask him three times to bring me some way to end it all - he'll do it.

And vice versa.  He's my bro - I have his back until the end.

///There is no farking way I will ever live in a nursing home.  Period.  Nothing but respect for the workers, but when the time comes I want to just have it end, not taper off into a series of accumulating problems that leave me a drooling invalid.
 
2013-10-03 11:39:36 AM
This is a bit disturbing:

"Voluntary euthanasia for those over 18 is relatively uncontroversial in Belgium. Parliament is now considering expanding the law to under 18s as well."
 
2013-10-03 11:52:43 AM
reflection before actual point:
It's weird... I know someone who works with people who are suicidal. At one point I was even trained to do it and got some kind of certificate to show as much, though I never got into that field.

If one of these people called them, they'd go through several steps to do everything in their power and use all of their training to tell the person in the article, and everyone else for that matter, that suicide (of any stripe) is always a wrong-headed decision, not to do it, and get them help.

While I agree with the getting them help part - not just psychological, actual material aid they might need - I think it's strange how we can do that sort of thing. Just flat out reject something like euthanasia.

It's strange....


Totally separate point:

Thinking about euthanasia being an option for people under 18? That's.... wow. Belgium, come on guys. Besides being a comedy gold mine even discussing the ins and outs of how that could work, that bit was... disturbing.

And you do hear about some child with some hellish illness or something, or they're effectively brain dead or whatever, but then it'd be the parents/doctors making the decision and then we're back to the "Billy, go to your room or you're euthanized" comedy up above. Or maybe their 16 year old tells their parents they're gay, or want to be an investment banker... I mean, yeah.

That seems like an endless and uncomfortable can of worms.
 
2013-10-03 12:03:40 PM

special20: gja: Dignity. When modern medicine fails you, and comes hat-in-hand to tell you they have not one clue as to how to help you the most decent thing they can do is admit they have no answers or hope for any, and then let you make a dignified exit rther than living every waking moment in pain or crushing depression.

And don't exclude the friends and family of somebody with incurable clinical depression (diagnosed). Sometimes there is a point where seeing somebody you love suffering is heartbreaking, and you find the compassion and empathy to understand that they need to go.

/pours out some 40



Truth.  I spent many years recognizing my father was a miserable, tragic character, and knowing he would take his own life someday.  And in my heart, sad as that made me...I knew it'd be an end to his decades long suffering and he'd finally be at peace.  It's a terrible thing to come to terms with, but sometimes....you know...it just is what it is.
 
2013-10-03 12:27:30 PM
I'd look at it more as a malpractice issue. Did the okay for the first operation consider the underlying depression as not being curable through gender reassignment?
 
2013-10-03 12:37:13 PM

ruta: The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)


Jesus Christ.

The parents, concerned about their son's prospects for future happiness and sexual function without a penis, took him to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore to see John Money, a psychologist who was developing a reputation as a pioneer in the field of sexual development and gender identity, based on his work with intersex patients. Money was a prominent proponent of the 'theory of Gender Neutrality'-that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and that it could be changed with the appropriate behavioral interventions. The Reimers had seen Money being interviewed on the Canadian news program This Hour Has Seven Days, during which he discussed his theories about gender. He and physicians working with young children born with abnormal genitalia believed that a penis could not be replaced but that a functional vagina could be constructed surgically, and that Reimer would be more likely to achieve successful, functional sexual maturation as a girl than as a boy

This reassignment was considered an especially valid test case of the social learning concept of gender identity for two reasons: First, Reimer's twin brother, Brian, made an ideal control because the brothers shared genes, family environments, and the intrauterine environment. Second, this was reputed to be the first reassignment and reconstruction performed on a male infant who had no abnormality of prenatal or early postnatal sexual differentiation.

Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements," with David playing the bottom role.[4] David Reimer painfully recalled that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks."Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections." On at "least one occasion," Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity."


Gee Doc, that's one hell of an act. What do you call it?
 
2013-10-03 01:18:47 PM
Someone has a tragic life, the same person has surgeries that go even more tragically wrong and then that person is so depressed they have themselves killed by the doctors that made their lives worse.  I'm not going to say gender reassignment surgery is wrong, I'm not even going to say that euthanasia is wrong.  But for crying out loud, this got the COOL tag?!
farm4.staticflickr.com
 
2013-10-03 02:31:15 PM

abhorrent1: There was a documentary about someone going overseas for euthanasia. Not sure if it was Belgium. i thought I remember it being Sweden or something. I can't remember the name but I watched it on netflix. It was very sad and bizarre to watch.


IIRC, it's a place called Dignitas in Switzerland.  Saw a story of a man with ALS who wanted to end his life because he was horribly afraid of the choking that can accompany the disease.  Apparently, with ALS, you can't clear your airway properly.
 
2013-10-03 02:39:52 PM
On one hand, I find it incredibly sad that this person felt there was no other option left for them.  On the other hand, I do believe that your life is yours, and while I am against suicide personally, a person should not be disallowed to option to end their own life.
 
2013-10-03 02:41:39 PM

doczoidberg: How goddarn hard is it to just commit suicide?

This selfish dude goes and has a bunch of doctors do it for him, and ends up costing the taxpayers.

Is no one concerned about the Belgian taxpayers?


As a Belgian taxpayer I can assure you we are rather pleased with our mandatory health care insurance. This might seem like an excessive cost, but we know the system has our back if we ever need expensive care.

I'm pretty sure trying to overturn our health care system would end with dissolving the government.
 
2013-10-03 02:55:23 PM

ruta: Vitamin Pb: ruta: Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

You can change sex. You can't change gender. If you change the sex of someone who doesn't actually have that gender, you will irrevocably fark them up. The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

As Lady J pointed out, it sounds very much like the parents tried to impose gender, which Nancy lived with into adulthood, and as with Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer, the experiment failed miserably. Yeah, she should have gotten therapy instead of surgery.

So what you are saying is that Nancy's "gender identity problem" was a mental issue. But not for the rest of the transgender crowd. It can't be changed. Unless it was changed mentally. Do I have that right?

No.


Vitamin Pb: ruta: Englebert Slaptyback: Lady Indica

You can change sex. You can't change gender. If you change the sex of someone who doesn't actually have that gender, you will irrevocably fark them up. The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

As Lady J pointed out, it sounds very much like the parents tried to impose gender, which Nancy lived with into adulthood, and as with Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer, the experiment failed miserably. Yeah, she should have gotten therapy instead of surgery.

So what you are saying is that Nancy's "gender identity problem" was a mental issue. But not for the rest of the transgender crowd. It can't be changed. Unless it was changed mentally. Do I have that right?


No, what happened in this case, was that the child was born physically AND mentally female. So, no mental issue at the start.

HOWEVER, her parents hated the fact she was a girl, and pushed her into assuming the role of a boy, and eventually coaxed her to "complete" the change by having surgery, in order to try to please her parents.

/Rotten parents should be forced to undergo the same surgery for their role in screwing up their child like that.
 
2013-10-03 03:02:26 PM
Well now, the result of last week's competition when we asked you to find a derogatory term for the Belgians. Well, the response was enormous and we took quite a long time sorting out the winners. There were some very clever entries. Mrs Hatred of Leicester Said 'let's not call them anything, let's just ignore them' ...
 ... and a Mr St John of Huntingdon said he couldn't think of anything more derogatory than Belgians.

But in the end we settled on three choices:
  number three ... the Sprouts, sent in by Mrs Vicious of Hastings... very nice
  number two..... the Phlegms ... from Mrs Childmolester of Worthing
  but the winner was undoubtedly from Mrs No-Supper-For-You from Norwood in Lancashire... Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards.
 
2013-10-03 03:34:45 PM

Flakeloaf: ruta: The infamous case of David Reimer demonstrates that. (clicky)

Jesus Christ.

.....snip....

Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements," with David playing the bottom role.[4] David Reimer painfully recalled that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks."Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Dr. Money also forced the children to ta ...


Wow. I saw that episode of SVU and thought it was ridiculous. I can't believe it was a "ripped from the headlines" episode. Jesus Christ, indeed.
 
2013-10-03 05:54:52 PM
Since I haven't seen it posted yet, here's Terry Pratchett- Choosing to Die. It's a documentary that talks about making end of life choices and follows a couple cases of people who have signed up at Dignitas (the organization mentioned previously that helps people with end-of-life decisions). The movie does have some dark moments (nothing graphic) and does include a man taking his own life by ingesting something lethal. But I did find it pretty informative and that it did have some good points (made quite poignant by the fact that Terry Pratchett was considering his own end of life due to Alzheimer's).
 
2013-10-03 07:43:41 PM

dbrunker: Someone has a tragic life, the same person has surgeries that go even more tragically wrong and then that person is so depressed they have themselves killed by the doctors that made their lives worse.  I'm not going to say gender reassignment surgery is wrong, I'm not even going to say that euthanasia is wrong.  But for crying out loud, this got the COOL tag?!
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 450x268]


I believe the idea was that the Cool thing is that Belgium has this option.
 
2013-10-03 09:12:03 PM
I was really clear in my post, but I'm going to be SUPER CLEAR...I'm a cis female. I completely support transgendered and transsexual people. Their lives are hard enough with their medical problems, do you really need to add to them? I think some of you are utter asshats.

And I am very grateful I don't have the internal 'icky kill it with fire' bullshiat that some of you seem to have instead of brains.

PS: They're going to have full rights and full acceptance eventually, just like teh gayz and just like the blacks. You can either been seen later as racist grandpa/grandma, you know the one they speak with in hushed tones, the relative they're ashamed of...the one no one really wants to visit and not just cause you smell of death and pee.

Or you can join the rest of us in the 21st century. Personally I don't care, as I figure that kind will die off soon enough. :)

/my racist grandpa was at least a kind man who never hurt another with his foolishness
//you can be a fool and still at least be kind
 
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