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(Slashdot)   Investors demand Bill Gates leave Microsoft. Fine, Bill will go cry on his giant Mount Everest of $100 bills   (slashdot.org) divider line 68
    More: Interesting, Bill Gates, Microsoft, Microsoft CEO, base metals, Mount Everest, investors  
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2631 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Oct 2013 at 5:07 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-03 10:40:18 AM

Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.


Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.
 
2013-10-03 11:08:18 AM
The start button always sucked.  Why do people want it back?
 
2013-10-03 11:16:40 AM

CheatCommando: Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.

Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.


They still have a mouse and keyboard.  What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?
 
2013-10-03 11:25:33 AM

babygoat: The start button always sucked.  Why do people want it back?


The Qwerty keyboard sucks, but it's what millions of people are used to and happy with. They can use it without having to think about it, allowing them to concentrate on what they are typing and not have to stop and think "now where is N?" all the time. The Dvorak keyboard is technically better by many objective standards but how many people have switched?
Same with cars, the standard gas, brake and clutch layout is fitted to every car. Changing it might offer some theoretical improvement but it would make millions of people struggle to learn the new layout and on top of that make people who use several different cars always struggle when changing from one to another.

With Windows the standard interface and functions, including the Start button and menu, the three Max/Min/Close buttons on every window etc etc are so familiar to millions that even if the new system offered some theoretical advantage, which IMHO it doesn't for desktop PCs, it will still cause problems, take time to learn, slow down people's work and make using one system at work and the other at home a pain.

We can easily cope with the totally different systems on PCs and tablets and smartphones because they are totally different machines, just as people can easily drive a car and ride a bike without ever getting confused where the controls are.
The problem with using a tablet style touch gesture control on a desktop PC is that your brain knows it is a desktop PC and expects it to work a certain way. Even if you were comfortable with a tablet it is still unintuitive using those controls on a PC, just as if you fitted a car with a hand throttle and foot pedal gear change it would be a huge pain even to an experienced biker. His brain would be telling him he was in a car, and in a car he expects the gas to be his right foot and the gears to be a lever at his side.

I love Windows 8. Once I have installed Classic Shell.
 
2013-10-03 11:30:04 AM

babygoat: CheatCommando: Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.

Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.

They still have a mouse and keyboard.  What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?


You do know how analogies work, right? There is not, has not been and can never be an analogy that will match every condition you can think of.

The analogy with cars and bikes is that the controls are different and while people are happy with both that car controls suit cars and bike controls suit bikes, and that that is what people are used to and happy with.
 
2013-10-03 11:50:52 AM

Flint Ironstag: babygoat: CheatCommando: Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.

Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.

They still have a mouse and keyboard.  What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

You do know how analogies work, right? There is not, has not been and can never be an analogy that will match every condition you can think of.

The analogy with cars and bikes is that the controls are different and while people are happy with both that car controls suit cars and bike controls suit bikes, and that that is what people are used to and happy with.


Yeah, and you are terrible at them.  If you had cause to use the analogy you did, MS would have completely replaced the mouse with the touchscreen.  But they didn't, everything is still the same and no one knows what you're whining about.  Maybe Marine1 can comment about if Ford suddenly revamped their dashboard.
 
2013-10-03 12:01:17 PM

babygoat: Flint Ironstag: babygoat: CheatCommando: Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.

Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.

They still have a mouse and keyboard.  What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

You do know how analogies work, right? There is not, has not been and can never be an analogy that will match every condition you can think of.

The analogy with cars and bikes is that the controls are different and while people are happy with both that car controls suit cars and bike controls suit bikes, and that that is what people are used to and happy with.

Yeah, and you are terrible at them.  If you had cause to use the analogy you did, MS would have completely replaced the mouse with the touchscreen.  But they didn't, everything is still the same and no one knows what you're whining about.  Maybe Marine1 can comment about if Ford suddenly revamped their dashboard.



So what would your analogy be? MS clearly made a lot of changes, everything is not "still the same" since there is no Start menu, Metro apps don't run in windows, they don't have the traditional Max/Min/Close buttons etc. Lets have your analogy. Since you say I'm terrible at them let us see how they should be done. I'm sure you won't mind me critiquing you, right?
 
2013-10-03 12:29:38 PM

babygoat: They still have a mouse and keyboard. What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?


The touch optimized home screen versus the mouse and kb oriented task bar and start menu of pre-8.
 
2013-10-03 12:31:01 PM

Flint Ironstag: babygoat: Flint Ironstag: babygoat: CheatCommando: Flint Ironstag: CheatCommando:

And just to note (also from the article) those three now own a larger share of MS than Gates himself does.

Interesting that Gates now reduced share of MS stock, 5%, is the same percentage of shares in Apple that Jobs had, yet he still ruled Apple with a rod of iron.

Jobs was CEO, not Chairman, for most of his tenure. The Board hired him to run the place with a rod of iron.

And I'd love to see Marine1's comments if Ford suddenly replaced the steering wheel with a joystick.

They still have a mouse and keyboard.  What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

You do know how analogies work, right? There is not, has not been and can never be an analogy that will match every condition you can think of.

The analogy with cars and bikes is that the controls are different and while people are happy with both that car controls suit cars and bike controls suit bikes, and that that is what people are used to and happy with.

Yeah, and you are terrible at them.  If you had cause to use the analogy you did, MS would have completely replaced the mouse with the touchscreen.  But they didn't, everything is still the same and no one knows what you're whining about.  Maybe Marine1 can comment about if Ford suddenly revamped their dashboard.


So what would your analogy be? MS clearly made a lot of changes, everything is not "still the same" since there is no Start menu, Metro apps don't run in windows, they don't have the traditional Max/Min/Close buttons etc. Lets have your analogy. Since you say I'm terrible at them let us see how they should be done. I'm sure you won't mind me critiquing you, right?


My analogy (which I already posted) was Ford revamping their dashboard.  Suddenly.
 
2013-10-03 12:43:10 PM

CheatCommando: babygoat: They still have a mouse and keyboard. What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

The touch optimized home screen versus the mouse and kb oriented task bar and start menu of pre-8.


The start menu sucks.  Clicking Start, Programs, Folder, Application is the most horrible design ever and I can't believe it wasn't gone sooner.  You (royal) don't miss it because it made sense, you're just resistant to change. You can just type a few letters of an application in win 8 and hit enter and it opens.  It's the easiest thing in the world.
 
2013-10-03 01:15:15 PM

Flint Ironstag: babygoat: The start button always sucked.  Why do people want it back?

The Qwerty keyboard sucks, but it's what millions of people are used to and happy with. They can use it without having to think about it, allowing them to concentrate on what they are typing and not have to stop and think "now where is N?" all the time. The Dvorak keyboard is technically better by many objective standards but how many people have switched?
Same with cars, the standard gas, brake and clutch layout is fitted to every car. Changing it might offer some theoretical improvement but it would make millions of people struggle to learn the new layout and on top of that make people who use several different cars always struggle when changing from one to another.

With Windows the standard interface and functions, including the Start button and menu, the three Max/Min/Close buttons on every window etc etc are so familiar to millions that even if the new system offered some theoretical advantage, which IMHO it doesn't for desktop PCs, it will still cause problems, take time to learn, slow down people's work and make using one system at work and the other at home a pain.

We can easily cope with the totally different systems on PCs and tablets and smartphones because they are totally different machines, just as people can easily drive a car and ride a bike without ever getting confused where the controls are.
The problem with using a tablet style touch gesture control on a desktop PC is that your brain knows it is a desktop PC and expects it to work a certain way. Even if you were comfortable with a tablet it is still unintuitive using those controls on a PC, just as if you fitted a car with a hand throttle and foot pedal gear change it would be a huge pain even to an experienced biker. His brain would be telling him he was in a car, and in a car he expects the gas to be his right foot and the gears to be a lever at his side.

I love Windows 8. Once I have installed Classic Shell.


You know how I find and execute crap in Windows 8 on PC?  I just start typing at the start menu and then pin it.  It took me about 30 minutes to get my start page where I wanted it and pinned everything I needed.  This belief that Windows 8 is horrible bad bad bad because people don't know how to use it is just enabling laziness.
 
2013-10-03 02:25:15 PM

babygoat: So what would your analogy be? MS clearly made a lot of changes, everything is not "still the same" since there is no Start menu, Metro apps don't run in windows, they don't have the traditional Max/Min/Close buttons etc. Lets have your analogy. Since you say I'm terrible at them let us see how they should be done. I'm sure you won't mind me critiquing you, right?

My analogy (which I already posted) was Ford revamping their dashboard.  Suddenly.


That isn't a reasonable analogy. The dashboard of a car is a display with some secondary controls. The features MS changed with W8, the removal of the Start button and menu, the removal of the Max/Min/Close buttons on Metro apps, etc etc are the primary controls that you use all the time, and you expect them to be in a certain place. Ford changing the layout of their dashboard would be analogous to MS moving the Start button to the right side of the toolbar, or the Max/Min/Close buttons to the top left corner. Replacing the Start button and menu with a hidden screen you can only open by moving the mouse to an empty place of the screen and waiting for a until then hidden menu to appear is far far more than just "revamping a dashboard".
 
2013-10-03 02:30:03 PM

babygoat: CheatCommando: babygoat: They still have a mouse and keyboard. What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

The touch optimized home screen versus the mouse and kb oriented task bar and start menu of pre-8.

The start menu sucks.  Clicking Start, Programs, Folder, Application is the most horrible design ever and I can't believe it wasn't gone sooner.  You (royal) don't miss it because it made sense, you're just resistant to change. You can just type a few letters of an application in win 8 and hit enter and it opens.  It's the easiest thing in the world.


So lets do away with Windows and go back to DOS? If you're going to have to type something to open a program then why not? If I'm doing stuff with a mouse it is far easier to carry on using the mouse rather than have to take my hand away from the mouse and start to type something and then have to go back to the mouse.

And if "resistance to change" is so bad can I assume you have changed to the Dvorak keyboard layout? That is technically far better to use and clearly you will have no problem changing, right?
 
2013-10-03 03:24:52 PM

Flint Ironstag: babygoat: CheatCommando: babygoat: They still have a mouse and keyboard. What are Microsoft's steering wheel and joystick in your analogy?

The touch optimized home screen versus the mouse and kb oriented task bar and start menu of pre-8.

The start menu sucks.  Clicking Start, Programs, Folder, Application is the most horrible design ever and I can't believe it wasn't gone sooner.  You (royal) don't miss it because it made sense, you're just resistant to change. You can just type a few letters of an application in win 8 and hit enter and it opens.  It's the easiest thing in the world.

So lets do away with Windows and go back to DOS? If you're going to have to type something to open a program then why not? If I'm doing stuff with a mouse it is far easier to carry on using the mouse rather than have to take my hand away from the mouse and start to type something and then have to go back to the mouse.

And if "resistance to change" is so bad can I assume you have changed to the Dvorak keyboard layout? That is technically far better to use and clearly you will have no problem changing, right?


I've never even seen a Dvorak keyboard.  How does one measure the "technical betterness" of a keyboard anyhow?

Why go back to DOS when the new way is much much better?  I don't HAVE to type anything, I can point and click, touch, or type.  It is the easiest thing in the world, and literally anyone can do it.
 
2013-10-03 03:59:10 PM

babygoat: The start menu sucks.  Clicking Start, Programs, Folder, Application is the most horrible design ever and I can't believe it wasn't gone sooner.  You (royal) don't miss it because it made sense, you're just resistant to change. You can just type a few letters of an application in win 8 and hit enter and it opens.  It's the easiest thing in the world.

So lets do away with Windows and go back to DOS? If you're going to have to type something to open a program then why not? If I'm doing stuff with a mouse it is far easier to carry on using the mouse rather than have to take my hand away from the mouse and start to type something and then have to go back to the mouse.

And if "resistance to change" is so bad can I assume you have changed to the Dvorak keyboard layout? That is technically far better to use and clearly you will have no problem changing, right?

I've never even seen a Dvorak keyboard.  How does one measure the "technical betterness" of a keyboard anyhow?

Why go back to DOS when the new way is much much better?  I don't HAVE to type anything, I can point and click, touch, or type.  It is the easiest thing in the world, and literally anyone can do it.


So you said you "can just type a few letters of an application in win 8 and hit enter and it opens" but now you say you don't have to type anything?

For example how is clicking on a Start button that is hidden so you have to move your mouse into a corner and wait a second for the charms bar to appear and then move your mouse to the Start button to click it any better than having a start button that is always visible on the toolbar that is always at the bottom of the screen?

The new W8 way involves an extra step. For a tablet that is ideal, because screen area is at a premium and touching and swiping is logical. But for a desktop PC I defy anyone to argue that the new way is anything but slower than the old Start button. The Metro Start screen either forces you to cram everything onto one page or it makes you scroll sideways with the mouse to find the button to click on, again no better than using the mouse to navigate through the XP Start menu.

And I prefer the hierarchical Start menu, that grouped applications together by type or manufacturer (Games, Administration Tools, Office etc) is far more logical than throwing everything on one huge screen you have to scroll sideways. It also gave you instant access to not only a program but also associated tools like the uninstall option for that program.

As to your final two sentences, guess what? Millions of people were used to the old XP/Vista/7 method and happy with it. That was the easiest thing in the world for them, until MS took it away for no reason. Classic Shell gives those controls back and it works perfectly, so that proves MS did not have to remove them to add touch controls. But they removed them anyway.

If you Google Dvorak keyboard you will find out about it. Many studies have shown it is faster and more logical to use than the Qwerty layout. So will you change? Clearly you don't think anyone should stick with something they are used to when there is a new and 'better' way.
 
2013-10-03 04:22:27 PM

Flint Ironstag: If you Google Dvorak keyboard you will find out about it. Many studies have shown it is faster and more logical to use than the Qwerty layout. So will you change? Clearly you don't think anyone should stick with something they are used to when there is a new and 'better' way.


How long did it take you to switch?
 
2013-10-03 04:42:22 PM

babygoat: Flint Ironstag: If you Google Dvorak keyboard you will find out about it. Many studies have shown it is faster and more logical to use than the Qwerty layout. So will you change? Clearly you don't think anyone should stick with something they are used to when there is a new and 'better' way.

How long did it take you to switch?


I'm used to Qwerty, and it makes it far easier for me to use other PCs, such as at work etc.

Which, BTW, is why I added Classic Shell to my W8 so I got back the Start button and menu. You're the one saying people should change and learn a new system.
 
2013-10-04 05:09:28 AM
Seriously, it's been a year and that's all everyone still biatches about is the damn start screen? For fark sakes.
 
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