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(La Repubblica)   The Pope's at it again: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us"   (repubblica.it) divider line 201
    More: Followup, Second Vatican Council, His Holiness, La Repubblica, Descartes, human existence, Son of God, pope, American communists  
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3218 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2013 at 9:33 AM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-02 07:59:36 AM
There's a bunch of clerics that are going to be offended by what he has to say.  Truth hurts.
 
2013-10-02 08:23:36 AM

superdolfan1: There's a bunch of clerics that are going to be offended by what he has to say.  Truth hurts.


The Vatican establishment is still sore after the butthurt he laid down on them Monday and now this....I like this Francis guy he's going all POPE SMASH on the established hypocrisy of the Church.
 
2013-10-02 08:29:42 AM
The red letter question:  What if Jesus actually meant what he said?  This guy seems to get that.
 
2013-10-02 08:43:21 AM
If this guy keeps it up I might actually think about stepping into a Catholic church again.

/OK, I thought about it
//still not going
///do miss the swinging incense stenchers
 
2013-10-02 09:27:53 AM
I think better than half of the proselytizing out there (at least in the U.S.) is people simply trying to appear righteous to everyone else (the "I'm more Jesusy than you" way of acting) and/or to make money.  Those people will not consider such a statement for a millisecond.
 
2013-10-02 09:28:51 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: POPE SMASH



Pater sancte Frangit
 
2013-10-02 09:30:50 AM
He'll never make me go back to the Church, but it's nice to see a Pope that kinda sorta gets what that Jesus fellow was blathering about.
 
2013-10-02 09:35:14 AM
You know, that's the kind of talk that if you keep it up...well, let's just say if I were the Pope I'd stay away from using Stevia to sweeten my coffee.
 
2013-10-02 09:35:15 AM

nekom: The red letter question:  What if Jesus actually meant what he said?  This guy seems to get that.


The scarlet letter question?
 
2013-10-02 09:35:32 AM
He will either be the last Jesuit Pope ever or the first in a long consecutive line of them.
 
2013-10-02 09:35:57 AM
Does the Catholic Church proselytise all that much? I can't recall any Catholics ever coming through my neighborhood asking if I'd heard the good news from Rome.
 
2013-10-02 09:36:36 AM
Does he still think that there is an invisible magic guy who lives in the sky?
 
2013-10-02 09:36:41 AM
Poor fella ain't gonna live past Advent, he keeps up this truth tellin' stuff.
 
2013-10-02 09:38:30 AM

AngryDragon: He will either be the last Jesuit Pope ever or the first in a long consecutive line of them.


The conservative old electors only selected him because they thought there was some divine sign, they were all pushing for variations on Benedict II.  The power-grabbing psychopaths will continue to be the only ones who actively want to be Cardinals, and so conservatism will continue to manifest in most popes.
 
2013-10-02 09:39:10 AM
What an asshole this guy is!
 
2013-10-02 09:39:18 AM

Farking Canuck: Does he still think that there is an invisible magic guy who lives in the sky?


That's not really the official Catholic perception of god, but yes, they still believe a lot of the fake things.
 
2013-10-02 09:40:11 AM
If he keeps this up, I may have to change my atheist ways.
 
2013-10-02 09:41:01 AM

b0rscht: ///do miss the swinging incense stenchers


The correct term is "Holy Smoke Machine"
 
2013-10-02 09:41:07 AM
Gosh, he's dreamy
 
2013-10-02 09:41:24 AM
I really like this Pope and I'm not even Catholic.
 
2013-10-02 09:41:43 AM
I kinda' like this guy, he's somewhat of a loose cannon.  Good thing to have around sometimes.

/same reason I like the more recent Jimmy Carter
 
2013-10-02 09:43:50 AM
Take that, heretic protestants!!!!!
 
2013-10-02 09:44:30 AM
Yeah, that pope is going to be assassinated very soon if he keeps up that openminded stuff.
 
2013-10-02 09:45:14 AM
That might be a shot across the bow to the evangelicals in Brazil.
 
2013-10-02 09:45:24 AM

lucksi: Yeah, that pope is going to be assassinated very soon if he keeps up that openminded stuff.


Then he's a martyr and his legacy lives on, bringing the world a far more liberal, inclusive and modern Catholic church.

/hey, it COULD happen
 
2013-10-02 09:47:29 AM

Donnchadha: b0rscht: ///do miss the swinging incense stenchers

The correct term is "Holy Smoke Machine"


I`m going to name GWAR cover band Holy Smoke Machine
 
2013-10-02 09:47:57 AM
Number of pedophiles turned in by the Vatican: ZERO

This asshole is full of shiat. Great PR program though.
 
2013-10-02 09:49:00 AM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: You know, that's the kind of talk that if you keep it up...well, let's just say if I were the Pope I'd stay away from using Stevia to sweeten my coffee.


"You know what I think about this? Heads of the Church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."

Each of these last few articles are extensive interviews.  There are many many gems of wisdom in each one.  For instance this little quote in the article.
 
2013-10-02 09:49:07 AM

nekom: The red letter question:  What if Jesus actually meant what he said?  This guy seems to get that.


Jesus only said a fraction of what is attributed to him if anything at all. He certainly wouldn't have wanted a damn thing to do with you, unless your name is Goldman, or Bronstein or some such. That's the truth, and I don't give a fark if it hurts.
 
2013-10-02 09:50:04 AM

Farking Canuck: Does he still think that there is an invisible magic guy who lives in the sky?


That comment shows a stunning amount of ignorance on your part. It's really not the kind of thing you want to display when you're trying to deride someone else.
 
2013-10-02 09:50:44 AM

baconbeard: If he keeps this up, I may have to change my atheist ways.


That doesn't make any sense at all.  How does the presence or absence of decent people who disagree with you affect the basic justification of your views?
 
2013-10-02 09:51:28 AM

Johnny Swank: Number of pedophiles turned in by the Vatican: ZERO

This asshole is full of shiat. Great PR program though.


You voted for Romney, didn't you.
 
2013-10-02 09:51:45 AM

brandent: Prank Call of Cthulhu: You know, that's the kind of talk that if you keep it up...well, let's just say if I were the Pope I'd stay away from using Stevia to sweeten my coffee.

"You know what I think about this? Heads of the Church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."

Each of these last few articles are extensive interviews.  There are many many gems of wisdom in each one.  For instance this little quote in the article.


Uh oh....OBAMA!!!!!!  He reads.

 "I went to university. I also had a teacher for whom I had a lot of respect and developed a friendship and who was a fervent communist. She often read Communist Party texts to me and gave them to me to read."
 
2013-10-02 09:53:36 AM

lucksi: Yeah, that pope is going to be assassinated very soon if he keeps up that openminded stuff.


Bingo.  All this talk of inclusion and rational consideration for the well being of other human beings just don't reconcile with the Jesus freaks.

He'll be dead soon at the hands of somebody wearing a cross. Expect nothing less The Other Religion of Peacetm
 
2013-10-02 09:54:00 AM

Farking Canuck: Does he still think that there is an invisible magic guy who lives in the sky?


Seems like. From the article:
Pope Francis: "And I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God"

However:
Pope Francis : "My family wanted me to have a different profession, to work, earn some money. I went to university. I also had a teacher for whom I had a lot of respect and developed a friendship and who was a fervent communist. She often read Communist Party texts to me and gave them to me to read. So I also got to know that very materialistic conception. I remember that she also gave me the statement from the American Communists in defense of the Rosenbergs, who had been sentenced to death. The woman I'm talking about was later arrested, tortured and killed by the dictatorship then ruling in Argentina.

Interviewer: Where you seduced by Communism?

Pope Francis : "Her materialism had no hold over me. But learning about it through a courageous and honest person was helpful. I realized a few things, an aspect of the social, which I then found in the social doctrine of the Church."
 
2013-10-02 09:54:32 AM

Madbassist1: nekom: The red letter question:  What if Jesus actually meant what he said?  This guy seems to get that.

Jesus only said a fraction of what is attributed to him if anything at all. He certainly wouldn't have wanted a damn thing to do with you, unless your name is Goldman, or Bronstein or some such. That's the truth, and I don't give a fark if it hurts.


And you think that's not true of Muhammad (especially some of the hadiths), the Buddha, any other religious figure?  It's called mythology for a reason, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.  It's no secret that the bible has gone through HEAVY editing by multiple parties at various times for various reasons.
 
2013-10-02 09:56:48 AM
If you ask me, Proselytism makes sense if you have heartburn, but I'm no doctor.
 
2013-10-02 09:57:30 AM
dinca.org
 
2013-10-02 10:00:08 AM
Hmmm, someone should give this guy his own sitcom or something, lol
 
2013-10-02 10:00:34 AM
Well it's not like he was going to become a  Protestant now is it?
 
2013-10-02 10:02:20 AM
I say again.  Read past the headlines.  This stuff is unprecedented.  His long interviews are simply amazing.  I keep hearing Yoda's voice.

"But just a few days ago you appealed to Catholics to engage civilly and politically.
"I was not addressing only Catholics but all men of good will. I say that politics is the most important of the civil activities and has its own field of action, which is not that of religion. Political institutions are secular by definition and operate in independent spheres. All my predecessors have said the same thing, for many years at least, albeit with different accents. I believe that Catholics involved in politics carry the values of their religion within them, but have the mature awareness and expertise to implement them. The Church will never go beyond its task of expressing and disseminating its values, at least as long as I'm here."

But that has not always being the case with the Church.
"It has almost never been the case. Often the Church as an institution has been dominated by temporalism and many members and senior Catholic leaders still feel this way. 
But now let me ask you a question: you, a secular non-believer in God, what do you believe in? You are a writer and a man of thought. You believe in something, you must have a dominant value. Don't answer me with words like honesty, seeking, the vision of the common good, all important principles and values but that is not what I am asking. I am asking what you think is the essence of the world, indeed the universe. You must ask yourself, of course, like everyone else, who we are, where we come from, where we are going. Even children ask themselves these questions. And you?"

I am grateful for this question. The answer is this: I believe in Being, that is in the tissue from which forms, bodies arise.
"And I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor, but God, the Father, Abba, is the light and the Creator. This is my Being. Do you think we are very far apart?"

We are distant in our thinking, but similar as human beings, unconsciously animated by our instincts that turn into impulses, feelings and will, thought and reason. In this we are alike.
"But can you define what you call Being?"

Being is a fabric of energy. Chaotic but indestructible energy and eternal chaos. Forms emerge from that energy when it reaches the point of exploding. The forms have their own laws, their magnetic fields, their chemical elements, which combine randomly, evolve, and are eventually extinguished but their energy is not destroyed. Man is probably the only animal endowed with thought, at least in our planet and solar system. I said that he is driven by instincts and desires but I would add that he also contains within himself a resonance, an echo, a vocation of chaos.
"All right. I did not want you to give me a summary of your philosophy and what you have told me is enough for me. From my point of view, God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone."

Yes, I remember it well. You said, "All the light will be in all souls" which - if I may say so - gives more an image of immanence than of transcendence.
"Transcendence remains because that light, all in everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that stage. But back to the present. We have made a step forward in our dialogue. We have observed that in society and the world in which we live selfishness has increased more than love for others, and that men of good will must work, each with his own strengths and expertise, to ensure that love for others increases until it is equal and possibly exceeds love for oneself."
 
2013-10-02 10:03:44 AM
He has a point: people talk about literal "come to Jesus" moments, not "Jesus comes to you" - that's a whole other thing.

How many religious people here (people who chose religion as teens/adults, as opposed to those "born into" one) were convinced via proselytizing vs personal revelation? Personally, my own choice to leave was based more on personal revelation, as no one really pressed me into non-belief (and I still feel awkward about "coming out" as an agnostic to family members, even though my family's liberal as hell).
 
2013-10-02 10:05:07 AM
"We embrace. We climb the short staircase to the door. I tell the Pope there is no need to accompany me but he waves that aside with a gesture. "We will also discuss the role of women in the Church. Remember that the Church (la chiesa) is feminine."
And if you like, we can also to talk about Pascal. I'd like to know what you think of that great soul.
"Give all your family my blessings and ask them to pray for me. Think of me, think of me often."

We shake hands and he stands with his two fingers raised in a blessing. I wave to him from the window.
This is Pope Francis. If the Church becomes like him and becomes what he wants it to be, it will be an epochal change. "
 
2013-10-02 10:05:11 AM
The United States has border fences to keep people like him out of the country.

Now you know why the US Government bought up massive amounts of personal data from countries like Argentina and Brazil. No, it wasn't Muslims. It's Christian terrorists preaching Commie doctrines such as loving your neighbor as you love yourself, respect for other people's beliefs and the environment, etc. In a word, everything that is anathema to the Cult of Mammon and the Sons of Belial.

Remember the Sins of Sodom (Ezekiel 16:48 and thereabouts): Pride, sloth, fulness of bread and strengthening not the hands of the poor. Conservatism in other words. Red Letter, baby, Red Letter means Red Commies. The Bible tries to warn you away from Christian deviltry by putting all the seditious and insane stuff in red.

Now that the Commie Pope has started to preach the unadulterated gospel of Christ and the climate hoaxers have gotten to the White House, the Pentagon, the Vatican, and so forth, the end is nigh.

I'm beginning to think that there is something to the prophecies of Saint Malarchy or whatever he called himself, after all.

How much longer can the Coal Lords hang on before somebody demands that they keep the coal in the ground where God and Nature intended it to be?

Sheesh, it's hard to be an atheist when Popes abandon the worship of Mammon and the Great Dragon and even kicks the Great Harlot of Babylon in the knees. You lose all the crazy talk that normally makes religionists sitting ducks, shooting fish in a barrel, taking candy away from retarded babies.

But don't be surprised if he toes the Party line when it counts. He's advancing the canonization of not only John XXIII but John Paul II, the most left-wing and one of the more right-wing Popes of recent time. This signals a more balanced approach to winning over the Poor that God makes so many of, and the powers that be, Princes of the Church and the dominions and gods of this world.

In a way he is even continuing the work of the younger John Paul II, who named himself for John XXIII and his anti-pope, Paul VI (the old f*****).

They even looked a bit alike:

img.timeinc.net

images.fineartamerica.com

Of course, every Looney knows that Time is Commie and on the side of the liberals and progressivists. They put Hitler and Stalin on their cover as Man of the Year instead of running an anachronistic picture of Saint Ronald McDough Reagan every issue.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ....
 
2013-10-02 10:09:59 AM

Johnny Swank: Number of pedophiles turned in by the Vatican: ZERO

This asshole is full of shiat. Great PR program though.


number of pedophiles turned in by Johnny Swank: ZERO

the match goes into overtime.
 
2013-10-02 10:10:24 AM

UberDave: I think better than half of the proselytizing out there (at least in the U.S.) is people simply trying to appear righteous to everyone else (the "I'm more Jesusy than you" way of acting) and/or to make money.  Those people will not consider such a statement for a millisecond.


If only there was a section of the Bible where Jesus essentially said, "What ever you do... don't be a douche in my name."

Oh, wait... it is... essentially all of Matthew 6. Sorry... carry on.
 
2013-10-02 10:10:27 AM
Didn't Jesus say "go and make disciples of all nations" ? Isn't that proselytizing?
 
2013-10-02 10:12:02 AM
The idea that conservative Catholics need to be "talked off the edge" due to the teachings of a pope devoted to the actual teachings of Jesus rather than a slavish devotion to the hierarchy and canon is utterly disturbing.

He wants you to engage with other people, minister to the poor, and make the Catholic church a force for good in the world.  How horrifying.
 
2013-10-02 10:12:16 AM

mbillips: Does the Catholic Church proselytise all that much? I can't recall any Catholics ever coming through my neighborhood asking if I'd heard the good news from Rome.


I had some nuns come to my house in a suburb of Boston once. They were mostly looking for lapsed catholics to remind them of local hours and confession was the feeling I got. Only seemed interested in my lapsed roommates story
 
2013-10-02 10:14:39 AM

jigger: Didn't Jesus say "go and make disciples of all nations" ? Isn't that proselytizing?


Again, from the article:

Interviewer:You Christians are now a minority. Even in Italy, which is known as the pope's backyard. Practicing Catholics, according to some polls, are between 8 and 15 percent. Those who say they are Catholic but in fact are not very are about 20%. In the world, there are a billion Catholics or more, and with other Christian churches there are over a billion and a half, but the population of the planet is 6 or 7 billion people. There are certainly many of you, especially in Africa and Latin America, but you are a minority.

Pope Francis: "We always have been but the issue today is not that. Personally I think that being a minority is actually a strength. We have to be a leavening of life and love and the leavening is infinitely smaller than the mass of fruits, flowers and trees that are born out of it. I believe I have already said that our goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope. We must restore hope to young people, help the old, be open to the future, spread love. Be poor among the poor. We need to include the excluded and preach peace. Vatican II, inspired by Pope Paul VI and John, decided to look to the future with a modern spirit and to be open to modern culture. The Council Fathers knew that being open to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non-believers. But afterwards very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do something."
 
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