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(Think Progress)   Park Service: We're sorry, but the WWII Memorial is closed due to the government shut down. WWII Veterans: How about no? Does no work for you?   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 140
    More: Hero, WWII Memorial, veterans, park police  
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17298 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Oct 2013 at 12:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-10-01 12:44:01 PM  
13 votes:
Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?
2013-10-01 12:47:18 PM  
12 votes:
So arrest them (and King) for trespassing. And slap King with additional charges of disturbing the peace and interfering with police duties.

Shutdown means shutdown. If you don't like it, don't vote for lunatics that do things like this.
2013-10-01 12:47:03 PM  
11 votes:
The monuments and parks should be run by non-profits and volunteers anyway. They're too important to be left in the hands of the federal government.
2013-10-01 12:42:03 PM  
10 votes:
So the derpists just break the law when they don't like what they have forced to happen. Intervesting.
2013-10-01 12:55:44 PM  
8 votes:
A lot of these veterans came from very far away to see this memorial. For them, it means a lot more than blocks of granite. It is worth noting that there are very few memorials for the War (as opposed to Europe, for instance, or Russia) in the United States.

For a number of these veterans, this may be the first and only time they will see the memorial as they will likely not be able to make the trip again. They are also representing far more than themselves; most veterans have already passed away.

To turn them away because of a political dispute would be an outrage, and they acted appropriately.
2013-10-01 12:50:56 PM  
6 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.
2013-10-01 12:46:34 PM  
6 votes:
I see Rep. Steve King, R-IA, lacks the courage of his convictions.

This is the problem with the modern Republicans...they can't decide if they're proud of the shutdown or not.  They alternate between "best thing ever, about time", and "it's all the Democrat's fault".

Have some self-respect, ffs, make up your minds.  You'll still be wrong, but you'll at least show a little gumption.
2013-10-01 12:54:06 PM  
5 votes:

Walker: This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.



Interesting choice of phrase:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
2013-10-01 12:51:12 PM  
5 votes:
Heroes in more ways than one. This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. You cannot lock the people out of their own government, and it's absolutely ridiculous to shut down the National Mall. NO Federal dollars are needed to let people go look at a stone memorial/monument that has already been paid for -- in some cases over 100 years ago. And turning off the "panda cam" is also ridiculous. Notice they didn't turn off their own cams in Congress.
2013-10-01 12:50:55 PM  
5 votes:

lockers: topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.

There is a public safety issue and the government is liable. They shut it down because to avoid liability. These people are tresspassing, but lucky for them there are no public safety people to stop them.


They could just put up signs that say "Enter at your own risk".  Sort of like "No lifeguard on duty" at the beach.
2013-10-01 12:50:44 PM  
5 votes:
As much as I hate the idea of turning away veterans for budgetary reasons, you get a better response (and voter retribution) if a security guard makes it clear that they can't come in because Congress acted like spoiled children.
2013-10-01 12:46:30 PM  
5 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


It is, but it aids the left's message.
2013-10-01 12:43:24 PM  
5 votes:
According to Stars and Stripes reporter Leo Shane, who took many of the pictures at the scene, Rep. Steve King (R-IA)   while the barriers were being moved to allow the veterans access.

Good to know laws only apply to little people and LIBS LIBS LIBS
2013-10-01 02:08:06 PM  
4 votes:
Wow... it's like a reality distortion field has descended on the some of the more dogmatic liberal Farkers here today.

"Shutting down" the national parks probably cost more than running them over the course of several weeks, and wasn't dictated by congress, but by the executive branch. The simple, unvarnished truth is that no fences needed to be erected to prevent people from walking on public grounds, except for the executive branch making a big butthurt "I'm taking my ball and going home" statement about the shutdown.

The politics of the shutdown notwithstanding, fencing off public land is simply politics at its most dogmatic and idiotic. Siding with the National Parks department on this one is just as idiotic. Try unplugging your ears and face the truth - this is another example of government waste, and the sole intention is to punish the public for not being outraged and siding with the President in a political matter.

That the only reason anybody is even noticing the "shutdown" is because of the effects of government spending MORE money to artificially "shutdown" parks and web sites is very telling of how bloated and unnecessary our government has become.
2013-10-01 12:54:41 PM  
4 votes:

Uisce Beatha: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

THIS.

That just seems petty.  "We're shutdown, so fark off and don't walk here!"


Bingo.  In all seriousness it is all hyperbole.  Most of us will never even notice the shutdown.  Says volumes about the roll of the federal government.
2013-10-01 12:49:30 PM  
4 votes:
How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.
2013-10-01 12:48:28 PM  
4 votes:

PunGent: I see Rep. Steve King, R-IA, lacks the courage of his convictions.

This is the problem with the modern Republicans...they can't decide if they're proud of the shutdown or not.  They alternate between "best thing ever, about time", and "it's all the Democrat's fault".

Have some self-respect, ffs, make up your minds.  You'll still be wrong, but you'll at least show a little gumption.


Also, it's rather hard to help solve the shutdown from the World War II memorial. Shouldn't he be working or something?
2013-10-01 12:42:42 PM  
4 votes:
Saw this little earlier, Hero tag well used subby.

F*ck the government shut down.
2013-10-01 02:15:36 PM  
3 votes:

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Has anyone mentioned the WW II Monument is actually really crappy?  It's just a rotund little plaza with state names posted randomly around it.  In no way does it evoke the war itself.  Just kind of a bland public space.  Oh, and it interrupts the flow from the Lincoln Memorial up to the Washington Memorial - it's not smooth to navigate.

Contrast with the Korean War Memorial which can be really haunting.  And the Vietnam War Memorial, which is genius.


This. It looks it was designed by 1920s fascists. And not talented fascists, either; fascist hacks. Or worse, as if it were designed by a House committee, or the clods Ross Perot hired to make the bronze statue next to Maya Lin's masterpiece. A pond, a colonnade with funeral wreaths and state names on them, and some really cheesy bronze eagles. Me no likey.

This sucks:

fc09.deviantart.net
2013-10-01 02:05:10 PM  
3 votes:

Cataholic: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

You have to pay people to put up barricades.  How else are you going to claim that not running the government costs $2 Billion more than the $3 Billion a day you spend running it.



This kind of comment really boggles my mind, and there are many in this thread.

Do you mean to tell me that you aren't actually capable of understanding what a skeleton crew is? That you've heard of this news, but somehow avoided hearing that some federal workers deemed "essential" are still working - like the kind of folks who would be needed to police areas or shut down operations.

I'm pretty sure I've met beach towels who could understand these concepts, so I'm guessing it's not a lack of ability so much as willful ignorance.
2013-10-01 01:50:18 PM  
3 votes:

spidermilk: Amos Quito: OMG!

Just went to the Grand Canyon National Park webpage: www.nps.gov/grca/

THEY CLOSED THE GRAND CANYON!

[arizonablogging.net image 550x311]

Where will all the water from the Colorado River go now?

You do realize that people need to be rescued in the Grand Canyon every year, right? People die in National Parks. I visited Yosemite last year and 3 park rangers were loading a guy who had died on the trail onto a stretcher. So, maybe you aren't aware, but park rangers actually have important jobs to do. Sucks if they closed it because people sign up years in advance to stay at the bottom (Phantom Ranch), but is it right for them to leave it open and let every yahoo who is going to hike down with no water just go on in and die??!



No, leave the parks open.

Let 'em shut down the NSA and the farking IRS.
2013-10-01 01:47:17 PM  
3 votes:
Something just smacks of pre-planned BS about this whole thing.
2013-10-01 01:09:24 PM  
3 votes:

Karma Chameleon: I can respect the idea of this, but they are also breaking the law. Being a veteran does not entitle you to special treatment., or being above the law. Sorry.


Right, thats only for politicians
2013-10-01 01:02:08 PM  
3 votes:
Where did they get the money to pay this doofus to go around with his twisty ties and signs?
www.wusa9.com

Congress can't pay $0 to let people visit the Lincoln Memorial, but can pay these two park police officers to make sure no one visits it. Federal Government logic!
www.wusa9.com

How are all these people being paid?
www.wusa9.com
2013-10-01 12:59:29 PM  
3 votes:
King and his cronies are responsible for closing the memorial in the first place. What a hypocritical asshole.
2013-10-01 12:54:58 PM  
3 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Everyone wants teh services, no one wants to pay for it. Freedom ain't free. Pony up if you want to honor your fallen comrades at a public memorial


THIS

You farking retards that vote for Republicans caused this. Close the shiat down and when you see that something YOU like is no longer available, maybe you'll think before voting like an asshole.
2013-10-01 12:54:07 PM  
3 votes:

lockers: topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.

There is a public safety issue and the government is liable. They shut it down because to avoid liability. These people are tresspassing, but lucky for them there are no public safety people to stop them.


I'm calling bullshiat on that reason.  Shutting down that particular monument, and the others like them in true park settings, is just government rules with no thought behind them.  They're probably classified in the same bracket as the other ones that may need more oversight or attendants, such as the Washington Monument, without anyone thinking it's simply a static open area with rocks and plaques.

Shutting down simpler monuments and parks is just grandstanding, no matter what party is in office at the time.  Same for the White House tour.  Shutting those down is only sending the message the government is dysfunctional, again, across both parties.  Obama doesn't get points from anyone closing that symbol of public openness.
2013-10-01 12:48:08 PM  
3 votes:
Everyone wants teh services, no one wants to pay for it. Freedom ain't free. Pony up if you want to honor your fallen comrades at a public memorial
2013-10-01 12:47:52 PM  
3 votes:

valar_morghulis: According to Stars and Stripes reporter Leo Shane, who took many of the pictures at the scene, Rep. Steve King (R-IA)   while the barriers were being moved to allow the veterans access.

Good to know laws only apply to little people and LIBS LIBS LIBS


Be a shame if Steve King got tazed and arrested.
2013-10-01 12:46:55 PM  
3 votes:
If the thing is shut down, shouldn't the Park Police be at home with their feet up watching Oprah reruns?
2013-10-01 08:40:34 PM  
2 votes:

MarkEC: So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?


There is no "best". Like the folly of claiming a single country as "best" it ignore that fact that each system is a monolithic attempt to serve a population with a wide range of needs and available resources.

You can say, devoid of the meaningful context that puts it in perspective, that it can take months to get an MRI in Canada and that's true. It can. But if I need an MRI right now because I have a piece of rebar sticking out my goddamn face I think I would better appreciate the fact that the guy waiting a few weeks is getting one because his doctor is trying to rule out a long shot possibility about what's causing his headaches.

Healthcare in this country is EXCEPTIONAL for people like me who have very good health coverage or the very wealthy who can afford any level of healthcare themselves out of pocket.

It is complete shiat for anybody working two jobs at minimum wage with no employer health coverage and two kids. I can get an MRI whenever the bloody fark I want. I can take time off to get it, it won't cost me a lot out of pocket and I can drive to the hospital 1.5 miles away with no trouble. Meanwhile, there's people living less than five miles from me right this minute who probably can't afford to get their kid a $20 flu shot at the local pharmacy and have no time to get there while it's open anyway.

Whether any individual system is better than any other, then, is going to be extremely dependent on exactly who you ask. Personally, I'm okay with giving up some of my convenience based health access if it means people with no access at all get some basic care. I'm a nice guy like that. I think society was created for a reason and I'm willing to accept some measure of sacrifice now so that if I ever wind up in need in the future through some misfortune I have that safety net available as well.
2013-10-01 08:30:38 PM  
2 votes:

MarkEC: vrax: MarkEC: That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?

Listen, we have the greatest level of medical spending with one of the worst returns in terms of quality and quantity of care in the entire developed world.  It is a grand lie that our healthcare system is amazing.  There is excellent service available for those who can afford it.  That's about where it ends.  Having experienced both ends of the spectrum first hand, I can tell you that we are truly mediocre.

So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?


Just because we do some things well, doesn't mean we have a great healthcare system.  What we should be doing is examining the best healthcare systems in the world and creating our own, best-of-breed version.  One of the reasons we are greatly outranked is because there is a great disparity between those who have access to good care and those who are underserved or not served at all.  Healthcare can be no greater than your access to it.
2013-10-01 07:33:07 PM  
2 votes:
Let's be honest here, people are nasty, dirty creatures that need rules and rule enforcers to keep them from literally dropping trou and shiatting where ever they like.  Since the pants dropper doesn't have tissue, he'll rub his ass on the bushes.  Trash overflowing.  Food decomposing every where.  Let's not even get into the idiot vandals who destroy things for the fark of it all.

The things that we are proud of in this country or are symbols of this country need people to protect them from other people.  Without that we would have no nice things.

That is why all of these easily accessible monuments / parks are closed today.  Because no one trusts you to not shiat on Abe's lap. And let's be honest, you would if you could.
2013-10-01 07:28:58 PM  
2 votes:

MarkEC: That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?


Listen, we have the greatest level of medical spending with one of the worst returns in terms of quality and quantity of care in the entire developed world.  It is a grand lie that our healthcare system is amazing.  There is excellent service available for those who can afford it.  That's about where it ends.  Having experienced both ends of the spectrum first hand, I can tell you that we are truly mediocre.
2013-10-01 04:57:30 PM  
2 votes:

Lawnchair: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.


s9.postimg.org
2013-10-01 03:27:51 PM  
2 votes:

tagkc: [350f2h3jkir93bsly2c4imnks5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com image 650x650]

Hey look!  The RNCC is even blaming the closure on the Democrats.



i42.tinypic.com
i39.tinypic.com
2013-10-01 03:18:37 PM  
2 votes:

Walker: More National Park workers working when apparently the government has run out of money. NPS rangers? Stay home. Guys who put up barricades? GET DOWN HERE ASAP WITH ALL YOUR FRIENDS!
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]

Bring out the heavy machinery! Gotta stop them 'muricans from visiting here. We're broke you know. Hey, are we getting OT for this?
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]

Even the Normandy American cemetery in France has been shut down! I see you people who snuck in!
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]


"I gots a sign and authora-tie. Ain't nobody gettin in here"
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]


OK, yeah...the shutdown is not a "pencils down at midnight" sort of thing.  Agencies have shutdown plans, and they enact them.  I would not be surprised if money for enacting the shutdown plans are part of last year's budget.  So, the NPS spends a few bucks as part of their pre-approved shutdown plan to send some guys out to put up barricades and little "we're closed" signs.  Took, what, most of a morning?  Probably less than half a day's worth of wages for what the park rangers would have cost.  Really not that ironic, or stupid, or what-have-you at all.
2013-10-01 02:19:48 PM  
2 votes:

strangeluck: Saw this little earlier, Hero tag well used subby.

F*ck the government shut down.


While the park should not have been shut down, you do not get to trespass because you're a veteran. The laws do apply. Yes, it sucks. Guess what? There's a fark-ton of federal workers getting furloughed, there's a fark-ton of private sector workers who will get the ripple effects of this...veterans are not special snowflakes, and while I'm sorry their trip got screwed up, trespassing was a childish temper tantrum, not the response of grown adults.
2013-10-01 01:47:33 PM  
2 votes:

AngryJailhouseFistfark: topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.

Except this is Homeland and if some jackass trips and busts his head open on a marble column or drowns in the fountain you know that they sue the shiat out of the US Park Service.


These are WWII vets, not Obama voters.
2013-10-01 01:43:37 PM  
2 votes:
350f2h3jkir93bsly2c4imnks5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com

Hey look!  The RNCC is even blaming the closure on the Democrats.
2013-10-01 01:25:25 PM  
2 votes:

HAMMERTOE: Lost Thought 00: Everyone wants teh services, no one wants to pay for it. Freedom ain't free. Pony up if you want to honor your fallen comrades at a public memorial

They're veterans who survived. They've "ponied up" all they need to. You are in their debt.


The debt was paid when they cashed their paychecks.
2013-10-01 01:16:13 PM  
2 votes:
If OWS had done this, the park service would have called out the gotdamn national guard.
2013-10-01 01:05:04 PM  
2 votes:

grumpfuff: skozlaw: Carousel Beast: It's amazing how many idiot Farkers here think the people involved must be ZOMG TEAHDISTS. You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.

The "person involved" in that comment was Steve King, tea party darling who has spoken at numerous tea party rallies and enjoy wide support among tea party adherents.

I have no idea what you think Roosevelt has to do with the fact that Steve King is a teaderp.

In fairness to King, he has blamed the Tea Party for the shutdown and compared them to terrorists. He wants to repeal Obamacare, yes, but he thinks this is the wrong way to do it.


Wrong King.  Steve Kind is from Iowa, the King you're talking about is Peter King formerly of the IRA.
2013-10-01 12:59:20 PM  
2 votes:
Tell me something. It's still "we the people", right?
2013-10-01 12:57:37 PM  
2 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Everyone wants teh services, no one wants to pay for it. Freedom ain't free. Pony up if you want to honor your fallen comrades at a public memorial


They're veterans who survived. They've "ponied up" all they need to. You are in their debt.
2013-10-01 12:55:23 PM  
2 votes:

lockers: So the derpists just break the law when they don't like what they have forced to happen. Intervesting.


Obama showed them the way. When your opponent ignores the law, then you'd be foolish to do otherwise. Welcome to the political version of Gresham's Law.
2013-10-01 12:52:41 PM  
2 votes:

topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.


Well you know, it$ the little thing$ like the park brochure ($7.50), conce$$ions (hot dog: $5, $oft drink: $3), tour$ ($25 adult$$$, $12.50 youth$$, children under 5 free--with rental of park $troller: $20/day).

Mainly ju$t en$uring the $afety and comfort of the clientele by providing adequate $taff and re$ources.

/Just my 2¢
2013-10-01 12:51:45 PM  
2 votes:

PunGent: I see Rep. Steve King, R-IA, lacks the courage of his convictions.

This is the problem with the modern Republicans...they can't decide if they're proud of the shutdown or not.  They alternate between "best thing ever, about time", and "it's all the Democrat's fault".

Have some self-respect, ffs, make up your minds.  You'll still be wrong, but you'll at least show a little gumption.


It's amazing how many idiot Farkers here think the people involved must be ZOMG TEAHDISTS. You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.
2013-10-01 12:50:42 PM  
2 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


THIS.

There was no reason to "close" an area that is normally just an open area. That's just grade-A butthurt on the part of whoever runs the parks department.

The only "derp" involved here is the bureaucrats who felt the need to do stupid crap like this in response to the "shutdown".
2013-10-01 12:50:30 PM  
2 votes:

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


Because this has nothing to do with veterans
2013-10-01 12:49:52 PM  
2 votes:

parkke0108: Remember, what they're doing on the hill doesn't mean everyone else has to be stupid too.  I'm not surprised that the cops didn't force the vets out, and good on them for that.  I think that the rangers at the national parks should let people in too, despite the shutdown.


If a shopping mall shuts down would you suggest that it be left unlocked as well?
2013-10-01 12:49:08 PM  
2 votes:

The Muthaship: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

It is, but it aids the left's message.


i.imgur.com
2013-10-01 12:44:33 PM  
2 votes:
What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.
2013-10-01 11:10:56 PM  
1 votes:

MarkEC: Then you agree that, as written, it's horrible. It causes employers to lower employees work hours to be exempt from the law. To me that is not unintended consequences, but is on purpose. "We wrote the law thinking it would help everyone, but those evil corporations found a loophole" is a disingenuous excuse.


There's a difference with a law in serious need of improvements and being a horrible law.  I certainly think it needs to be reformed - but repealed would be even worse.
2013-10-01 09:57:18 PM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: MarkEC: So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?

There is no "best". Like the folly of claiming a single country as "best" it ignore that fact that each system is a monolithic attempt to serve a population with a wide range of needs and available resources.

You can say, devoid of the meaningful context that puts it in perspective, that it can take months to get an MRI in Canada and that's true. It can. But if I need an MRI right now because I have a piece of rebar sticking out my goddamn face I think I would better appreciate the fact that the guy waiting a few weeks is getting one because his doctor is trying to rule out a long shot possibility about what's causing his headaches.

Healthcare in this country is EXCEPTIONAL for people like me who have very good health coverage or the very wealthy who can afford any level of healthcare themselves out of pocket.

It is complete shiat for anybody working two jobs at minimum wage with no employer health coverage and two kids. I can get an MRI whenever the bloody fark I want. I can take time off to get it, it won't cost me a lot out of pocket and I can drive to the hospital 1.5 miles away with no trouble. Meanwhile, there's people living less than five miles from me right this minute who probably can't afford to get their kid a $20 flu shot at the local pharmacy and have no time to get there while it's open anyway.

Whether any individual system is better than any other, then, is going to be extremely dependent on exactly who you ask. Personally, I'm okay with giving up some of my convenience based health access if it means people with no access at all get some basic care. I'm a nice guy like that. I think society was created for a reason and I'm willing to accept some measure of sacrifice now so that if I ever wind up in need in the future through some misfortune I have ...


It's also proven to be far more cost-effective.  In fact, there's a pattern in what Republicans claim is cost-effective: In most cases, it would be more cost-effective to implement the plan the Republicans are fighting against.
2013-10-01 09:50:51 PM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: I only wish civilians had as much fight in them as these guys.

/But then, I'd expect a lot more resistance if civilians pulled this kind of stunt...


They are civilians.  During WW2 they weren't, but now they are.
2013-10-01 09:46:17 PM  
1 votes:

vrax: historycat: HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P

As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.

If they are all still on the job, who is missing such that criminals will sweep in and ruin everything?!  "Oh, cops are everywhere, but the litter sweeper guy is missing.  Now's my chance!  I'm going take a giant shiat on the memorial!"


Actually, National Park Law Enforcement goes through the same training academy as the ATF, and DEA.  But don't let facts get in the way of your moronic story.
2013-10-01 09:25:36 PM  
1 votes:

Fusilier: Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.

that's sort of what I thought. My Grandfather was in WWII (on our side) and voted for Adlai Stevenson ffs.
Can any of you conceive of a time when Democrats actually enlisted in the Armed Forces of the United States?


That was back when the US fought wars it was forced into by foreign dictators, not because it felt like it, and because it had been a while since the last one.
2013-10-01 07:32:59 PM  
1 votes:

HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P


As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.
2013-10-01 06:39:59 PM  
1 votes:

MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?


If you think that the ACA is horrible, you can also thank the GOP.  It should have been called GOPCare.   As it stands now, it's what we have, it is better than what we had, but it can still use some work.  The GOP plan right now is to postpone until they can defund and overturn.  That's it!  They don't want something better like single-payer.  They want the status quo.  They have proven that they are unable to deal in good faith, so why should anyone deal with them?!
2013-10-01 06:23:18 PM  
1 votes:

nathanjr: why is Rep. King, who is being paid while I was booted out of my office today and for who knows how long, why is he available for photo ops on the taxpayer's dime and not, you know, working on a solution to the problem he and his mates are responsible for?


1. Spending time talking to members of the public is a legitimate working duty of a Congressperson.
2. He has no solution for, nor any interest in a solution for, the problem.
2013-10-01 06:11:19 PM  
1 votes:

MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?


On a side note, a big part of the 'problem' with 'Obamacare' is the 'cliffs' built into the legislation - you have hard lines with vast changes in expenses.  You go from not needing to provide healthcare with less than 50 to needing to provide something or pay penalties.  Not needing to provide benefits at less than 30 hours, to needing to provide them, etc...

Personally, I'd make it simple:  If you do NOT provide healthcare for employees, you must provide $x per hour for the employee to obtain their own.  Think of it as a parallel minimum wage.  No minimum employees, no minimum or maximum* hours.  I figure that X would be around $1-2/hour.  That would work out to ~$2-4k/year, $173-347/month for healthcare.

Blam - no benefits to artificially keeping people part time, no cliff at 50 employees, etc...

*If you're working your employees 60 hours/week you don't get to stop the additional contribution at 40 because they're likely working themselves into increased healthcare expenses.
2013-10-01 05:32:35 PM  
1 votes:
And the suggestions that volunteers keep the place clean aren't helping either, because without anyone to police visitors it's pretty likely that the monuments will get defaced if the public has access to them. So unless we can scare up some volunteers who can, without causing further damage, power wash a swastika off architectural marble, scrub dried half-caff caramel macchiolatte residue off bell bronze, or replace Lincoln's nose after some tourist took it home as a souvenir, everyone's better off just staying home.
2013-10-01 05:23:04 PM  
1 votes:
Just heard on the news that the trail system at Valley Forge was closed.

/nobody said a peep when I rode my bike on some of them today
//all the parking lots were closed, but where I went.. I don't need... parking lots
2013-10-01 05:22:47 PM  
1 votes:

MarkEC: Lawnchair: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.

Thank you for speaking truth to idiocy. If people from both sides of the isle entered a discussion with your temperament, things might get solved. Instead, as shown here on Fark, the farthest to both sides have the loudest voices and drown the rest of us out.The right fights for states rights, the left wants marijuana legalized, ummm, they're the same thing! If we could focus on the common ground we share, instead of the differences, we could have an honest discussion.


In most cases, this is true.  However, in our current situation, there is only one side that is seriously farking things up and that's the GOP.  Their version of compromise is "Let me take everything you have, plus give me everything else I want and we'll call it even."  Sounds reasonable, if you are insane.
2013-10-01 05:11:07 PM  
1 votes:

vrax: Carn: vrax: Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to visit the memorial site, but is it in a gated park or something? I'm unclear on exactly what there is to close.

Nope, right by a lot of the others on one end of the reflecting pool.

OK, so what the actual fark is being shut down at this site?! They actually are doing more work to close it than keep it open?


They apparently put up temporary fencing around it, as to that being more work than leaving it open is an open question.  I doubt those WWII vets are litterbugs but there are some filthy nasty people who bumming around the mall at times.  Thing is, they're still going to leave their crap and someone is still going to have to clean up after them.  It may not be reducing work so much as moving it to different locations.
2013-10-01 04:56:12 PM  
1 votes:

lockers: So the derpists just break the law when they don't like what they have forced to happen. Intervesting.


I wouldn't automatically count 'WWII Vets' as 'derpists'.  They're historically all parties.  They do probably lean republican today, but more due to the demographics of their age group.

Walker: Where did they get the money to pay this doofus to go around with his twisty ties and signs?
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]

Congress can't pay $0 to let people visit the Lincoln Memorial, but can pay these two park police officers to make sure no one visits it. Federal Government logic!
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]

How are all these people being paid?
[www.wusa9.com image 640x360]


1.  'Critical' positions such as police are still being manned, but unpaid(for now).  It sucks, but the dude probably isn't getting a paycheck while still being required to work.
2.  Odds are he's not being hired special for this.  He's probably park security and normally does things like help lost kids, stop pickpockets, break up fights, guide tourists and such.
3.  Sometimes you have to spend money to save money.  Paying people to put already paid for fences(because renovations) in place with freshly printed signs(probably using prepaid for office supplies).
4.  No people theoretically means you don't need to pay the housecleaning.
2013-10-01 04:39:18 PM  
1 votes:
It's a superficial shut down if the evictors and prosecutors are still on the job.

boring superficial shutdown and I'm suppose to care?
2013-10-01 04:29:43 PM  
1 votes:

Fade2black: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

To make it sound like a government shutdown affects us at *all*.  When it really doesn't.  Oh, some government workers don't get paid, sorry.  Next time join the private sector instead of dipping into my paycheck for taxes so you can have a job filing paperwork for a huge pension after 10 years.



You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

The government pension system (called FERS) is paid into by the employee, on a per-paycheck basis.  The employee accrues 1% of the average of their "top three" years of government services, per year.

Which means that, after 10 years, a government employee will get a yearly payment (split into monthly checks) of 10% of their top three years of pay.  Let's say that person was in an engineering grade, and in a locality with a decent boost (actually, I'm not sure if the locality adjustment figures into this, but let's assume it does).  For their last three years, they averaged 80k, which puts them around GS-12.

They will get, then, 8k a year.  A not insignificant portion of which they paid into themselves.  To even get that, they must have reached the minimum retirement age (MRA) and/or minimum federal service.

FERS caps out in the neighborhood of 30%, but that requires 30 years of government service.  FERS employees also contribute to Social Security, but the older CSRS members do not (normally), and can optionally take advantage of the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), which is similar to a 401(k).


And if you think government employees are just paper pushers, well, you're wrong.  Just look at how much is shut down, just with the "non-essential" employees furloughed today.  If the essential employees were sent home as well, the damage to the country and the economy would be immense.


Certainly, under the old
2013-10-01 04:03:03 PM  
1 votes:
The derp is STRONG in this thread, as the usual suspects hide behind other people's uniforms to feel better about the fact that they've never contributed a farking thing to this country unless they were forced too.
2013-10-01 03:41:10 PM  
1 votes:

Darth Macho: Mr. Eugenides: mongbiohazard: Cataholic: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

You have to pay people to put up barricades.  How else are you going to claim that not running the government costs $2 Billion more than the $3 Billion a day you spend running it.


This kind of comment really boggles my mind, and there are many in this thread.

Do you mean to tell me that you aren't actually capable of understanding what a skeleton crew is? That you've heard of this news, but somehow avoided hearing that some federal workers deemed "essential" are still working - like the kind of folks who would be needed to police areas or shut down operations.

I'm pretty sure I've met beach towels who could understand these concepts, so I'm guessing it's not a lack of ability so much as willful ignorance.

If they have staff to police the area then what's the need to shut it down?

My assumption is they have just enough staff to keep ten people per day from hopping the fence and carving their name onto Abe Lincoln's lap but not enough to handle 10,000 visitors per day. So it's safer to just tell everyone to keep out.


Pretty much.

Also to clean it. The mess that the constant stream of visitors the capitol area attracts would pile up real damn quick without proper staffing levels to keep it maintained. I was down at the national mall the other day. In the morning, clean... in a few hours the trashcans were full, some starting to overflow and needed to be emptied. That doesn't happen by magic... the government pays people to maintain those areas every day, and if they skip a day you'll know it. Those people are now not being paid as they're not classified as "essential", and it is actually illegal for them to come in to work.

So yes, they rope/barricade it off and close them because the staff has all been sent home due to the Tea Party drama machine. But they can get allocation for a skeleton crew of a few engineers to show up and rope everything off and then go home, and police to keep en eye out the rest of the day (many of them are likely deemed "essential" and so still working) so apparently that means to some people that reality magically no longer applies.

Seriously, the idiocy in this thread (in general, not talking about you Darth Macho) is just about at critical mass levels. If any more stupidity shows up it could implode into a singularity of fervent dumbass and birth a second Tea Party.

People, it's not political grandstanding just because you're too much much of a waterhead to understand what it takes to maintain popular and free-to-the-public facilities.
2013-10-01 03:31:54 PM  
1 votes:

Intrepid00: I like the blaming of the parties but the real place the blame belongs as at your own feet.

You keep putting the same assholes in office year after year based on or you might "lose".


There is only one party responsible here and only one group of voters who should be shooting themselves in the face for electing them.
2013-10-01 03:20:14 PM  
1 votes:

cuzsis: The reason the government closes things like parks, museums and other seemingly random stuff, is they don't want the public to know how well we'd get along without all the extra crap they throw on us.

 You and I know perfectly well that we could get boy scouts or non-profits to run these things and be a helluva lot more efficient than what we currently pay for. But then a whole lot of folks in gov't who've found themselves a nice well paid cushy positions would be suddenly out of a job.

 And neither party is okay with reducing the amount of government jobs available, because once we start with parks and museums, things like EPA, FEMA, ATF and other bloated agencies are next. Once we're done with streamlining those guys, we suddenly realize we're paying way too much for other things, including our current representatives for the actual work they do. And we start cutting back on that to something more reasonable (ie: no forever pay and benefits... go get a real job when you're done ect.)

 They know it's a slippery slope, so they cling to every meaningless job they can in order to prevent the American people from gaining momentum...


Good lord, you're an idiot.

Gee, who might benefit from shutting down all the oversight agencies that were created in response to rampant wrongdoing prior to their existence?  The very same corporate interests who own most of the news outlets, you say? Who fund the party of gridlock and corporate largesse? Who lobby for even MORE privileges and tax breaks while raking in record profits and generating big bonuses for their leadership?

Most of those agencies are underfunded and under resourced, and many are deliberately tied up by politically motivated witch-hunts whose sole purpose is to keep the feds from sniffing around in official corruption.
2013-10-01 03:10:50 PM  
1 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


Don't forget the government employees who were guarding the barricades.  It looks to me like the government was trying to make the shutdown as inconvenient as possible, even in a situation where there was no need.

Also, old vets are the last people who would litter around this memorial.  In fact, they'd probably beat you with their walker if you dropped garbage in front of them.
2013-10-01 02:58:18 PM  
1 votes:
Back in the 1980s when I was in grade school, I had a friend whose sister's cat was a miserable wretch... It would growl at everyone and just be a general howling and hissing drama queen if anyone but his sister came near it or tried to pet it (but it never would scratch or bite).

The height of its ridiculousness was how it would sometimes sit with its head behind a curtain, convinced that the curtain was an impregnable Barrier of Invisibility (cat logic, I guess -- it couldn't see you, so therefore you couldn't see it)... And if you were to touch the cat while it was doing this, it would howl much more furiously and high pitched, as if it was just completely and utterly outraged that you dared not acknowledge the privilege of invisibility that it was entitled to enjoy.

The outrage of some people in this thread at the WW2 veterans' refusal to acknowledge the supposed Shield of Impenetrability that was generated around the memorial by the "shutdown" reminds me of that cat.
2013-10-01 02:55:25 PM  
1 votes:

LesserEvil: Wow... it's like a reality distortion field has descended on the some of the more dogmatic liberal Farkers here today.

"Shutting down" the national parks probably cost more than running them over the course of several weeks, and wasn't dictated by congress, but by the executive branch. The simple, unvarnished truth is that no fences needed to be erected to prevent people from walking on public grounds, except for the executive branch making a big butthurt "I'm taking my ball and going home" statement about the shutdown.

The politics of the shutdown notwithstanding, fencing off public land is simply politics at its most dogmatic and idiotic. Siding with the National Parks department on this one is just as idiotic. Try unplugging your ears and face the truth - this is another example of government waste, and the sole intention is to punish the public for not being outraged and siding with the President in a political matter.

That the only reason anybody is even noticing the "shutdown" is because of the effects of government spending MORE money to artificially "shutdown" parks and web sites is very telling of how bloated and unnecessary our government has become.


The problem with this is that it assumes a short shutdown.  It assumes that everything will go back to normal in a week or two and the workers will go back and have to clean up a bit more than usual.

Now, that's probably going to be the case, but the executive branch can't and shouldn't plan for that.  If it's going to be closed for the next week it's probably fine to just leave it, but if the park is going to be closed for the next 2 years, then yes, at some point they're going to have to either block it off or start paying for someone to go check on it occasionally.
2013-10-01 02:55:02 PM  
1 votes:
It's all fun and games until you have to pee but have nowhere to go.

Seriously. Americans are pigs. We are really good at trashing public spaces. They close the parks because there's no one there to clean up after you. And closing one of the parks means closing them all, so although it seems strange for the memorials to be shut down, the reasoning is much easier to picture at Grand Canyon NP, which averages over 11,000 vistors per day.
2013-10-01 02:52:08 PM  
1 votes:

jasenj1: Carn: So the people who are mad about this are going to march a couple blocks down to the Capitol to go shiat on Ted Cruz' desk, right?

Great mental image. An angry mob of WWII vets storming the Capitol building and beating the congresscritters with their canes.

Or just barging into the House chambers and lounging around. "Hey, you shut down the Mall so we figured we'd come check this place out."

PR gold.


Occupy The House 2013.  Hell yeah. Go get em old dudes.
2013-10-01 02:47:09 PM  
1 votes:
They're not letting people into the parks and monuments because there's no one to maintain them. If any of the people here crying "people just walk around it, whats the big deal" had ever had to work as a janitor and actually clean up after other people for a living, they'd know that people tend to make a goddamn mess of things without thinking about it. It might not be that bad after a day or even a week, but if this thing goes on for a month like the last round of similar asshatery, these places will start looking like a goddamn dump and then there will be no end to the "OMG THE WWII MONUMENT IS A GODDAMN DUMP WHY DID OBAMA LET PEOPLE DO THIS!!?!?!" headlines.

And furthermore, to the people who are saying "how is this political lol", if you bothered to read TFA you'd have seen the line "National Republican Congressional Committee is now using the veterans' reclamation of their memorial to add email addresses to their mailing list".
2013-10-01 02:36:19 PM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: PsiChick: strangeluck: Saw this little earlier, Hero tag well used subby.

F*ck the government shut down.

While the park should not have been shut down, you do not get to trespass because you're a veteran. The laws do apply. Yes, it sucks. Guess what? There's a fark-ton of federal workers getting furloughed, there's a fark-ton of private sector workers who will get the ripple effects of this...veterans are not special snowflakes, and while I'm sorry their trip got screwed up, trespassing was a childish temper tantrum, not the response of grown adults.

Y'know what?  If people had your kind of mindset 250 years ago, we'd be governed by Her Majesty the Queen today.

Actually, now that I think of it, there were people that had your kind of mindset 250 years ago.  They were called Loyalists, and they were frowned upon by many colonists.

/Laws are not sacrosanct, nor are they rigid.
//You want people to act like adults? Stop treating them like they were children.


Which is why I entirely approved of Occupy Wall Street and Wikileaks. I just differentiate between disobeying laws for good reasons and disobeying laws because otherwise it'll wreck your trip. Much as I sympathize with the veterans, you do not get to break the law unless there is a very important reason. 'But I drove all the way down here!' is not a very important reason.
2013-10-01 02:34:03 PM  
1 votes:

2xcited: There is nothing to open or close you just walk around the reflecting pool


And litter and tag it and drown in the pool and loiter and get drunk, vomit and sleep on it...

I know it's fun to pretend it's just like your backyard only public, but it's not. They don't just pay people to stand around it doing nothing, it's an attraction that draws people and people make messes and do dumb things. If there's nobody on staff to maintain it, it should be closed.
2013-10-01 02:15:08 PM  
1 votes:

Mr. Eugenides: mongbiohazard: Cataholic: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

You have to pay people to put up barricades.  How else are you going to claim that not running the government costs $2 Billion more than the $3 Billion a day you spend running it.


This kind of comment really boggles my mind, and there are many in this thread.

Do you mean to tell me that you aren't actually capable of understanding what a skeleton crew is? That you've heard of this news, but somehow avoided hearing that some federal workers deemed "essential" are still working - like the kind of folks who would be needed to police areas or shut down operations.

I'm pretty sure I've met beach towels who could understand these concepts, so I'm guessing it's not a lack of ability so much as willful ignorance.

If they have staff to police the area then what's the need to shut it down?


My assumption is they have just enough staff to keep ten people per day from hopping the fence and carving their name onto Abe Lincoln's lap but not enough to handle 10,000 visitors per day. So it's safer to just tell everyone to keep out.
2013-10-01 02:13:16 PM  
1 votes:
So the people who are mad about this are going to march a couple blocks down to the Capitol to go shiat on Ted Cruz' desk, right?
2013-10-01 02:12:51 PM  
1 votes:
They are lucky the WWII Vets didn't clear the barricades the way they did in WWII:
4.bp.blogspot.com
2013-10-01 02:04:17 PM  
1 votes:

cuzsis: The reason the government closes things like parks, museums and other seemingly random stuff, is they don't want the public to know how well we'd get along without all the extra crap they throw on us.

 You and I know perfectly well that we could get boy scouts or non-profits to run these things and be a helluva lot more efficient than what we currently pay for. But then a whole lot of folks in gov't who've found themselves a nice well paid cushy positions would be suddenly out of a job.


From the people who brought you 'Let's sell our ports to Dubai' comes the next big idea: Let's put organizations with agendas in charge of our cultural heritage. I'm sure a wealthy Islamic charity would be interested in maintaining our monuments.
2013-10-01 01:54:34 PM  
1 votes:
The reason the government closes things like parks, museums and other seemingly random stuff, is they don't want the public to know how well we'd get along without all the extra crap they throw on us.

 You and I know perfectly well that we could get boy scouts or non-profits to run these things and be a helluva lot more efficient than what we currently pay for. But then a whole lot of folks in gov't who've found themselves a nice well paid cushy positions would be suddenly out of a job.

 And neither party is okay with reducing the amount of government jobs available, because once we start with parks and museums, things like EPA, FEMA, ATF and other bloated agencies are next. Once we're done with streamlining those guys, we suddenly realize we're paying way too much for other things, including our current representatives for the actual work they do. And we start cutting back on that to something more reasonable (ie: no forever pay and benefits... go get a real job when you're done ect.)

 They know it's a slippery slope, so they cling to every meaningless job they can in order to prevent the American people from gaining momentum...
2013-10-01 01:54:04 PM  
1 votes:
How many of the "I've got mine" generation voted for the tea-hadists that got us into this mess?  Chaps my azz that they have no problem if others are inconvenienced.

Wonder how they would feel if a group from the NAACP pushed aside barriers to the ML King Memorial.

Keep da Gubmint out of my affairs says the Vet who bought his home with a Govt. subsidized loan and got his education with the Govt. subsidized GI Bill and now relies on Govt. sponsored Medicare/Medicaid.
2013-10-01 01:51:43 PM  
1 votes:

spidermilk: Amos Quito: OMG!

Just went to the Grand Canyon National Park webpage: www.nps.gov/grca/

THEY CLOSED THE GRAND CANYON!

[arizonablogging.net image 550x311]

Where will all the water from the Colorado River go now?

You do realize that people need to be rescued in the Grand Canyon every year, right? People die in National Parks. I visited Yosemite last year and 3 park rangers were loading a guy who had died on the trail onto a stretcher. So, maybe you aren't aware, but park rangers actually have important jobs to do. Sucks if they closed it because people sign up years in advance to stay at the bottom (Phantom Ranch), but is it right for them to leave it open and let every yahoo who is going to hike down with no water just go on in and die??!


I worked in a national park recently, and this shut down is hitting a lot of folks already. Folks have little idea what sort of things happen beyond camp grounds and traffic tickets for being dumbasses. Let's not even talk about actual Federal offices.

Guess folks just want the GUB'MENT to keep their mots off their Medicaid...
2013-10-01 01:47:50 PM  
1 votes:

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Has anyone mentioned the WW II Monument is actually really crappy?  It's just a rotund little plaza with state names posted randomly around it.  In no way does it evoke the war itself.  Just kind of a bland public space.  Oh, and it interrupts the flow from the Lincoln Memorial up to the Washington Memorial - it's not smooth to navigate.

Contrast with the Korean War Memorial which can be really haunting.  And the Vietnam War Memorial, which is genius.


There was HUGE controvery when the WWII memorial was designed,  More than one commentator, and many angry Vets pointed out how "fascist" the grandiose design was. Not only that but it missed a huge point.  Americans, typically do not build memorials to "wars' As a whole, just occassional remeberances of individual battles.   Precedent was broken for the Vietnam War Memorial largely because of a feeling that the war was too amorphous to be broken into discrete events or battles, and partially as a make good for ignoring the vets fo that war for so very long.


The Korean War  Memorial, beautiful as it is, was a bad idea, based on "me too"-ing of Korean war vets who felt even LES attention had been paid to them than Vietnam war vets (and Korea is often called "the Forgotten war") So they got their memorial.   And in Post 9/11 uber patriotic America someone demanded to know why "the Greatest generation didn't have a memorial too, thus this monstrosity was birthed.  The fact is, that while it was officially something else, WW II vets have had a perfectly seriviceable memorial just across the river from DC fro decades:


symonsez.files.wordpress.com
2013-10-01 01:45:16 PM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: OMG!

Just went to the Grand Canyon National Park webpage: www.nps.gov/grca/

THEY CLOSED THE GRAND CANYON!

[arizonablogging.net image 550x311]

Where will all the water from the Colorado River go now?


You do realize that people need to be rescued in the Grand Canyon every year, right? People die in National Parks. I visited Yosemite last year and 3 park rangers were loading a guy who had died on the trail onto a stretcher. So, maybe you aren't aware, but park rangers actually have important jobs to do. Sucks if they closed it because people sign up years in advance to stay at the bottom (Phantom Ranch), but is it right for them to leave it open and let every yahoo who is going to hike down with no water just go on in and die??!
2013-10-01 01:43:28 PM  
1 votes:

Harry Freakstorm: WW II Vet: Why is the park closed?

Park Police: Because there's no one here who can run it. No bloody money in the budget, matey.


I've been there, it isn't like there's a tilt-a-whirl, it's a park.  It's a big open space with some benches.  What does someone have to do to "run" that?
2013-10-01 01:41:55 PM  
1 votes:

ringersol: It's all just legal theatre.
 The barricades are there so the government can argue they aren't liable if someone should fall.  They were trying to keep people out, honest.

 The police are there so they can argue it isn't *their* fault if someone disregarded the barricade and then falls.  They were enforcing the barricade, scouts honor!


The congressman is doing the 'distracting' so no innocent plebe is charged with obstruction, if someone who disregarded the barricade later falls.  He was just asking some honest questions about the policy! (not that he's getting sued in any case)

And the story is there so we can all feel good about a 'common sense' triumph over those knuckleheads in DC.
  / A real triumph would be a legal system that didn't require this charade


// God forbid one of those veterans *does* fall -- this common sense triumph would turn into a serious shiat-show in record time


Pretty dang much, but in our National Parks, the big ones, like Mesa Verde and a ton of others, this IS serious business because those folks do more than just pick up litter. There are a ton of Rangers who are high and dry, not to mention the attached fire departments and more.

Search and rescue? Fire Departments? There are a LOT of services that are essentially shut down, and the cost for maintenance and the simple stuff like cutting brush to keep wildfires in check, monitoring and maintaining historical sites and public lands is grinding to a halt.

This sort of story is essentially to head off a ton of others that illustrate the enormity of what this means to folks, and eats up inches in papers and only so many pages posted a day, so that folks aren't faced with what this actually means. It's theater, designed to distract.
2013-10-01 01:37:03 PM  
1 votes:

Pitabred: Lawnchair: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.

Running a single serve to say "Sorry, we're closed" is a lot less expensive than running the tens of servers that contain the actual information. Believe it or not, websites aren't magic or free.


And if the servers are compromised by hackers or other malware, the support staff will not be around to respond. Shutting them off is pretty reasonable.
2013-10-01 01:28:21 PM  
1 votes:
fickenchucker: "government rules with no thought behind them"

It's worse than that. They're insurance company rules.
With no shortage of data to justify them.
2013-10-01 01:25:17 PM  
1 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


You have to pay people to put up barricades.  How else are you going to claim that not running the government costs $2 Billion more than the $3 Billion a day you spend running it.
2013-10-01 01:22:25 PM  
1 votes:

Lawnchair: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.


Running a single serve to say "Sorry, we're closed" is a lot less expensive than running the tens of servers that contain the actual information. Believe it or not, websites aren't magic or free.
2013-10-01 01:18:41 PM  
1 votes:

mediablitz: You see "the left" behind every corner


No need to look around corners.

They went and made a show of barricading what amounts to sidewalks.  I hope they barricaded the sidewalks around all the federal buildings, too.

Since the government is "shut down" and all.

Puppet.
2013-10-01 01:18:29 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: If OWS had done this, the park service would have called out the gotdamn national guard.


I bet the WWII veterans will not have tents set up for the victims of rape.  In fact, I imagine they'll be gone in a few hours.
2013-10-01 01:15:19 PM  
1 votes:

The Muthaship: mediablitz: What a sad, scared individual you are.

It's just a big "Look what all you can't do because of the meany Republicans" farce.

I assure you I'm not sad, and what the hell makes you think I'm scared?

Oh, never mind, it's just one of those fun little phrases you like to throw around.


You see "the left" behind every corner. All national parks are required to be shut down, but it's "the left" doing this to look good.

That's just sad and pathetic. That you don't see how sad and pathetic you are isn't surprising though.

A frightened little man blaming "the left" for any and everything. Yep, indeed.
2013-10-01 01:14:49 PM  
1 votes:
onlineathens.com

With this guy laid off, the TER-RISTS are free to knock the WTC memorial to the ground!

OMG!
2013-10-01 01:13:41 PM  
1 votes:

duenor: A lot of these veterans came from very far away to see this memorial. For them, it means a lot more than blocks of granite. It is worth noting that there are very few memorials for the War (as opposed to Europe, for instance, or Russia) in the United States.

For a number of these veterans, this may be the first and only time they will see the memorial as they will likely not be able to make the trip again. They are also representing far more than themselves; most veterans have already passed away.

To turn them away because of a political dispute would be an outrage, and they acted appropriately.


Yes, let's create a special class of citizen to whom the rules don't apply. That's kind of the entire platform of the derp party, isn't it?

EVERY service that was shut down is going to have some people for whom it's especially needed or desired. There was a way to avoid cheating all those people out of these experiences, a way that most Americans agree on, but derp got what it wanted. This is what it wanted. Don't whine because now you realize the derp party didn't think about how its hissy fit might actually affect normal people. They are fully-aware adults behaving like colicky babies with the mindsets and intentions of fifteen year-olds on a plane full of trapped strangers.
2013-10-01 01:12:53 PM  
1 votes:
People being incredulous about this are acting dumb.  They can't afford to clean it or staff it so they shut it down.
2013-10-01 01:11:49 PM  
1 votes:

mediablitz: What a sad, scared individual you are.


It's just a big "Look what all you can't do because of the meany Republicans" farce.

I assure you I'm not sad, and what the hell makes you think I'm scared?

Oh, never mind, it's just one of those fun little phrases you like to throw around.
2013-10-01 01:11:39 PM  
1 votes:

jjorsett: Yes, by all means send the federal equivalent of mall cops to try to clap in the slammer people who faced down Hitler and Tojo. That'll get the public on your side.


What side? This isn't a political issue, if they're at a closed monument they're trespassing. You don't just get to ignore the law because you don't like it. The government isn't funded, the monument doesn't open, you don't get to just go in anyway because reasons.

Carousel Beast: What does his [King's] stance have to do with the groups of veterans referenced in the article?


You didn't quote the article's piece about the vets, you quoted PunGent who was talking about tea party baby Steve King.
2013-10-01 01:11:23 PM  
1 votes:

Lost Thought 00: parkke0108: Remember, what they're doing on the hill doesn't mean everyone else has to be stupid too.  I'm not surprised that the cops didn't force the vets out, and good on them for that.  I think that the rangers at the national parks should let people in too, despite the shutdown.

If a shopping mall shuts down would you suggest that it be left unlocked as well?


A public memorial and a shopping mall are not comparable.

/Except how they both sell overpriced doodads
2013-10-01 01:11:01 PM  
1 votes:

birdmanesq: Some conflicting emotions here about Steve King.

I mean, way to go Steve King.

But how about you spend less time distracting Park Police and more time, you know, not being a festering dick-curd?


Festering dick-curd is how The Stand started.
2013-10-01 01:10:47 PM  
1 votes:

Karma Chameleon: I can respect the idea of this, but they are also breaking the law. Being a veteran does not entitle you to special treatment., or being above the law. Sorry.


How about that freeloading 'Unknown Soldier', squatting in that tomb!?!
2013-10-01 01:09:51 PM  
1 votes:
Some conflicting emotions here about Steve King.

I mean, way to go Steve King.

But how about you spend less time distracting Park Police and more time, you know, not being a festering dick-curd?
2013-10-01 01:09:33 PM  
1 votes:

topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.


Except this is Homeland and if some jackass trips and busts his head open on a marble column or drowns in the fountain you know that they sue the shiat out of the US Park Service.
2013-10-01 01:08:59 PM  
1 votes:
It's all just legal theatre.
 The barricades are there so the government can argue they aren't liable if someone should fall.  They were trying to keep people out, honest.

 The police are there so they can argue it isn't *their* fault if someone disregarded the barricade and then falls.  They were enforcing the barricade, scouts honor!


The congressman is doing the 'distracting' so no innocent plebe is charged with obstruction, if someone who disregarded the barricade later falls.  He was just asking some honest questions about the policy! (not that he's getting sued in any case)

And the story is there so we can all feel good about a 'common sense' triumph over those knuckleheads in DC.
  / A real triumph would be a legal system that didn't require this charade


// God forbid one of those veterans *does* fall -- this common sense triumph would turn into a serious shiat-show in record time
2013-10-01 01:06:21 PM  
1 votes:

Lawnchair: Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).


Some of them do, actually -- bandhphoto.com, notably.
2013-10-01 01:05:00 PM  
1 votes:
Rep. Steve King (R-IA)

Setting the castle on fire so he can rescue the princess.  Vote for me.
2013-10-01 01:04:11 PM  
1 votes:

Carousel Beast: What does his [King's] stance have to do with the groups of veterans referenced in the article?


They voted these asshats in.
2013-10-01 01:04:06 PM  
1 votes:

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


Because this thread blew past Albequerque and went straight on to LibRetardville in the boobies.
2013-10-01 01:03:59 PM  
1 votes:

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


Because Steve King, the man who heroically distracted those park rangers, said this a few days ago.

"If there is a price to be paid for this, we will recover from a government shutdown, whether it's a day, a week or two weeks ... something will get resolved, we'll recover from that as a country," said Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa). "It's a temporary inconvenience for a lot of people. But if Obamacare is ever implemented, we will never recover from that as a nation. We can never be a free people again."

He set out to shut down the government and is now trying to grab some spotlight.
2013-10-01 01:03:25 PM  
1 votes:

The Muthaship: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

It is, but it aids the left's message.

2013-10-01 01:02:58 PM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: Carousel Beast: It's amazing how many idiot Farkers here think the people involved must be ZOMG TEAHDISTS. You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.

The "person involved" in that comment was Steve King, tea party darling who has spoken at numerous tea party rallies and enjoy wide support among tea party adherents.

I have no idea what you think Roosevelt has to do with the fact that Steve King is a teaderp.


In fairness to King, he has blamed the Tea Party for the shutdown and compared them to terrorists. He wants to repeal Obamacare, yes, but he thinks this is the wrong way to do it.
2013-10-01 01:02:14 PM  
1 votes:

PainInTheASP: topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.

Well you know, it$ the little thing$ like the park brochure ($7.50), conce$$ions (hot dog: $5, $oft drink: $3), tour$ ($25 adult$$$, $12.50 youth$$, children under 5 free--with rental of park $troller: $20/day).

Mainly ju$t en$uring the $afety and comfort of the clientele by providing adequate $taff and re$ources.

/Just my 2¢



You're an idiot.  The simple memorials have no fees.

Some of the complex ones may charge for elevator rides.  The Smithsonian is free, too, but they have a lot of overhead to pay for all the attendants, so closing that makes sense.
2013-10-01 01:01:47 PM  
1 votes:

PainInTheASP: topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.

Well you know, it$ the little thing$ like the park brochure ($7.50), conce$$ions (hot dog: $5, $oft drink: $3), tour$ ($25 adult$$$, $12.50 youth$$, children under 5 free--with rental of park $troller: $20/day).

Mainly ju$t en$uring the $afety and comfort of the clientele by providing adequate $taff and re$ources.

/Just my 2¢


Two years ago (well, almost, it was 10/12/11) I conducted my own cheap-ass walking tour of the Mall, starting out at Arlington, walked the whole bridge over the river, and went all the way from the Lincoln Memorial to the Air & Space museum on the other end. Packed a couple of snacks and some water and didn't spend any money til dinner later. And yes, I was from out of town; stayed in a hotel in Crystal City and took the Metro. Basically a three day tour cost me $40 for food and transportation since the hotel was actually part of my husband's work thing.

I'm kind of undecided on the whole shutting down the memorials issue because you KNOW people are going to be jerks and litter, plus a while back there was vandalism at Lincoln, but it is entirely possible to see most of the sights FOR FREE with a little planning ahead.
2013-10-01 01:01:37 PM  
1 votes:

duenor: A lot of these veterans came from very far away to see this memorial. For them, it means a lot more than blocks of granite. It is worth noting that there are very few memorials for the War (as opposed to Europe, for instance, or Russia) in the United States.

For a number of these veterans, this may be the first and only time they will see the memorial as they will likely not be able to make the trip again. They are also representing far more than themselves; most veterans have already passed away.

To turn them away because of a political dispute would be an outrage, and they acted appropriately.


Take your sane arguments and get out of here.  This is Fark, bastion of herpderp, where everyone has a political agenda and every action is a political statement because that's the way it should be.
2013-10-01 01:01:24 PM  
1 votes:
>The police have no obligation to prevent crime.

>wat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
2013-10-01 01:00:18 PM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: Carousel Beast: It's amazing how many idiot Farkers here think the people involved must be ZOMG TEAHDISTS. You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.

The "person involved" in that comment was Steve King, tea party darling who has spoken at numerous tea party rallies and enjoy wide support among tea party adherents.

I have no idea what you think Roosevelt has to do with the fact that Steve King is a teaderp.


What does his [King's] stance have to do with the groups of veterans referenced in the article?
2013-10-01 12:59:48 PM  
1 votes:
WW II Vet1: The memorial is closed!

WW II Vet2: Do we call the park or the police?

WW II Vets: Let's call the Park Police!

WW II Vets: CALLING THE PARK POLICE!

Park Police: What's all this then. Are any of you endangered squirrels? There doesn't seem to be as many around as there used to be.

WW II Vet: Why is the park closed?

Park Police: Because there's no one here who can run it. No bloody money in the budget, matey.

WW II Vet: Well, we can run it. All we have to do is clean up after ourselves.

PP: What? You think you have what it takes to be a GS-12 slash 4 dot 9 Park maintainer (second class)? I think not.

Sergeant Major: Sorry. Sorry. This isn't making any sense at all. Why is the Park Police speaking in a British accent? Yes. We get it. Services are cut. Now, all of you, be off. Go.
2013-10-01 12:59:06 PM  
1 votes:

DubyaHater: The police have no obligation to prevent crime.

wat?


He's right. Often times the do preventive services, but they are there to enforce the law, not prevent it from being broken.
2013-10-01 12:58:59 PM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: So arrest them (and King) for trespassing. And slap King with additional charges of disturbing the peace and interfering with police duties.

Shutdown means shutdown. If you don't like it, don't vote for lunatics that do things like this.


Yes, by all means send the federal equivalent of mall cops to try to clap in the slammer people who faced down Hitler and Tojo. That'll get the public on your side.
2013-10-01 12:57:42 PM  
1 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Carousel Beast: You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.

Most WW2 vets were not old enough to vote at the time. Certainly any that are alive today were not allowed to vote. Voting age was 21 (higher in some states). That didn't change until Vietnam protests


Citation? Because searching gets a consensus of "early 20's" and the command structure was certainly older than the young volunteers for service.
2013-10-01 12:57:07 PM  
1 votes:
Let's hope none of them slip and fall.
2013-10-01 12:56:27 PM  
1 votes:

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


And are served best deep fried and topped with brown gravy
2013-10-01 12:54:56 PM  
1 votes:

parkke0108: Remember, what they're doing on the hill doesn't mean everyone else has to be stupid too.  I'm not surprised that the cops didn't force the vets out, and good on them for that.  I think that the rangers at the national parks should let people in too, despite the shutdown.


And when some jackass starts a forest fire?
2013-10-01 12:54:17 PM  
1 votes:
ww2 vets have some experience with breaching barriers...
2013-10-01 12:54:12 PM  
1 votes:

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


Mostly Soylent Green flavor
2013-10-01 12:53:54 PM  
1 votes:

Carousel Beast: You know, because no WW2 vets voted for Roosevelt.


Most WW2 vets were not old enough to vote at the time. Certainly any that are alive today were not allowed to vote. Voting age was 21 (higher in some states). That didn't change until Vietnam protests
2013-10-01 12:52:20 PM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Logic: Close parks - lay off 400 Federal Parks staffers bc "no money".

Assign 4000 armed Federal guards to keep people from visiting closed parks.


Did you just make that up yourself or did some other right-wing crackpot make it up and you're just repeating it?
2013-10-01 12:50:55 PM  
1 votes:
See? We can still have government services without having to pay for them!
2013-10-01 12:50:19 PM  
1 votes:

topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.


Because without police around to monitor the area, fights could break out. Eventually some asshole will pull a gun and people subsequently die.
Bad things can happen when large groups of people come together
2013-10-01 12:50:16 PM  
1 votes:
Logic: Close parks - lay off 400 Federal Parks staffers bc "no money".

Assign 4000 armed Federal guards to keep people from visiting closed parks.
2013-10-01 12:49:00 PM  
1 votes:
You know who else tried to throw up barricades in front of us, young whippersnapper?

No. Seriously, I'm asking you 'cause I forgot.
2013-10-01 12:48:48 PM  
1 votes:

Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?


THIS.

That just seems petty.  "We're shutdown, so fark off and don't walk here!"
2013-10-01 12:47:42 PM  
1 votes:
Remember, what they're doing on the hill doesn't mean everyone else has to be stupid too.  I'm not surprised that the cops didn't force the vets out, and good on them for that.  I think that the rangers at the national parks should let people in too, despite the shutdown.
2013-10-01 12:47:10 PM  
1 votes:

topcon: What's to "shut down?"  It's a little monument you can walk around.  It could exist for the next century(ies) without anyone touching it.


There is a public safety issue and the government is liable. They shut it down because to avoid liability. These people are tresspassing, but lucky for them there are no public safety people to stop them.
 
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