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(Think Progress)   Park Service: We're sorry, but the WWII Memorial is closed due to the government shut down. WWII Veterans: How about no? Does no work for you?   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 354
    More: Hero, WWII Memorial, veterans, park police  
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17298 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Oct 2013 at 12:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-01 05:59:35 PM  

mithras_angel: And if you think government employees are just paper pushers, well, you're wrong.


They are dangerous paper pushers.  They aren't useless to the government busybodies but we would be better off without most of them.
 
2013-10-01 05:59:53 PM  

Pawprint: ferretman: my Grandfather was born in 1915 (was 21 in 1935)

Apparently math worked differently back then.


Actually it did. Looks up Order of Operations' history and how math teachers still fight over it and how it changed.
 
2013-10-01 06:06:08 PM  

Pawprint: ferretman: my Grandfather was born in 1915 (was 21 in 1935)

Apparently math worked differently back then.


Months are not magnets.  You know how they work.  Unless you're a moron of course.  You're not a moron are you?  I hope not, this is Fark, not Reddit.
 
2013-10-01 06:11:19 PM  

MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?


On a side note, a big part of the 'problem' with 'Obamacare' is the 'cliffs' built into the legislation - you have hard lines with vast changes in expenses.  You go from not needing to provide healthcare with less than 50 to needing to provide something or pay penalties.  Not needing to provide benefits at less than 30 hours, to needing to provide them, etc...

Personally, I'd make it simple:  If you do NOT provide healthcare for employees, you must provide $x per hour for the employee to obtain their own.  Think of it as a parallel minimum wage.  No minimum employees, no minimum or maximum* hours.  I figure that X would be around $1-2/hour.  That would work out to ~$2-4k/year, $173-347/month for healthcare.

Blam - no benefits to artificially keeping people part time, no cliff at 50 employees, etc...

*If you're working your employees 60 hours/week you don't get to stop the additional contribution at 40 because they're likely working themselves into increased healthcare expenses.
 
2013-10-01 06:21:43 PM  
I thought this was a NON-essential shutdown?  Looks like they just got their shiat backwards.  Leave the groundskeepers, park rangers, and so forth alone, furlough all the politicians and their assistants.  Indefinitely.  One day I'm sure we'll come up against a problem that only the *rousing, triumphant music plays* politicians! *crescendo* can solve.
 
2013-10-01 06:23:18 PM  

nathanjr: why is Rep. King, who is being paid while I was booted out of my office today and for who knows how long, why is he available for photo ops on the taxpayer's dime and not, you know, working on a solution to the problem he and his mates are responsible for?


1. Spending time talking to members of the public is a legitimate working duty of a Congressperson.
2. He has no solution for, nor any interest in a solution for, the problem.
 
2013-10-01 06:24:04 PM  

Firethorn: MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?

On a side note, a big part of the 'problem' with 'Obamacare' is the 'cliffs' built into the legislation - you have hard lines with vast changes in expenses.  You go from not needing to provide healthcare with less than 50 to needing to provide something or pay penalties.  Not needing to provide benefits at less than 30 hours, to needing to provide them, etc...

Personally, I'd make it simple:  If you do NOT provide healthcare for employees, you must provide $x per hour for the employee to obtain their own.  Think of it as a parallel minimum wage.  No minimum employees, no minimum or maximum* hours.  I figure that X would be around $1-2/hour.  That would work out to ~$2-4k/year, $173-347/month for healthcare.

Blam - no benefits to artificially keeping people part time, no cliff at 50 employees, etc...

*If you're working your employees 60 hours/week you don't get to stop the additional contribution at 40 because they're likely working themselves into increased healthcare expenses.


Then you agree that, as written, it's horrible. It causes employers to lower employees work hours to be exempt from the law. To me that is not unintended consequences, but is on purpose. "We wrote the law thinking it would help everyone, but those evil corporations found a loophole" is a disingenuous excuse.
 
2013-10-01 06:24:09 PM  
yeah, why can't we exploit child labor!
 
2013-10-01 06:32:13 PM  
In contrast, I went hiking in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area today, and was sorely disappointed to find no "trails closed" barriers for me to ignore.
 
2013-10-01 06:39:59 PM  

MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?


If you think that the ACA is horrible, you can also thank the GOP.  It should have been called GOPCare.   As it stands now, it's what we have, it is better than what we had, but it can still use some work.  The GOP plan right now is to postpone until they can defund and overturn.  That's it!  They don't want something better like single-payer.  They want the status quo.  They have proven that they are unable to deal in good faith, so why should anyone deal with them?!
 
2013-10-01 06:40:40 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Pawprint: ferretman: my Grandfather was born in 1915 (was 21 in 1935)

Apparently math worked differently back then.

Months are not magnets.  You know how they work.  Unless you're a moron of course.  You're not a moron are you?  I hope not, this is Fark, not Reddit.


Even a person born on Jan 1, 1915 wouldn't have turned 21 until Jan 1, 1936.
 
2013-10-01 06:57:20 PM  

vrax: MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?

If you think that the ACA is horrible, you can also thank the GOP.  It should have been called GOPCare.   As it stands now, it's what we have, it is better than what we had, but it can still use some work.  The GOP plan right now is to postpone until they can defund and overturn.  That's it!  They don't want something better like single-payer.  They want the status quo.  They have proven that they are unable to deal in good faith, so why should anyone deal with them?!


What single-payer country has better stats? If you need a hip replacement when you are 70, which country would you rather be in? If you need a heart valve replaced, where would you rather be? Prostate cancer? The list goes on and on. Do you really expect our system, that gets you into an MRI within days instead of months, to be there a few years after a single payer system is in place? I wish your utopian dream would come true, but it is a dream that cannot fit with reality. If your hope of single payer in the US comes to pass, it will be the end of medical innovation.
 
2013-10-01 07:01:37 PM  
The guys who took Iwo Jima, etc. can handle a pissant barricade.
 
2013-10-01 07:13:25 PM  

MarkEC: vrax: MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?

If you think that the ACA is horrible, you can also thank the GOP.  It should have been called GOPCare.   As it stands now, it's what we have, it is better than what we had, but it can still use some work.  The GOP plan right now is to postpone until they can defund and overturn.  That's it!  They don't want something better like single-payer.  They want the status quo.  They have proven that they are unable to deal in good faith, so why should anyone deal with them?!

What single-payer country has better stats? If you need a hip replacement when you are 70, which country would you rather be in? If you need a heart valve replaced, where would you rather be? Prostate cancer? The list goes on and on. Do you really expect our system, that gets you into an MRI within days instead of months, to be there a few years after a single payer system is in place? I wish your utopian dream would come true, but it is a dream that cannot fit with reality. If your hope of single payer in the US comes to pass, it will be the end of medical innovation.


Ah, the same tired shiat from a few years ago.  *yawn*
 
2013-10-01 07:16:40 PM  
Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.
 
2013-10-01 07:22:04 PM  

historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.


How does a barricade stop any of that?
 
2013-10-01 07:22:33 PM  

vrax: MarkEC: vrax: MarkEC: Is it reasonable that some penalties of the law are delayed for a year but not the individual penalty? How many exceptions have been given? Is it reasonable that it's been 3 years since the law was passed but the exchanges are not ready? Is it fair in your opinion that a lot of people are having their insurance rates tripled? I work for a company with less than the required 50, but it offered health insurance, guess what? I have family members that have been told they are not going to work more than 30 hours per week because of the ACA. Tough shiat for them? The ACA as written is horrible. Can we have a discussion about what should replace it or are you too much of a partisan to actually discuss solutions instead of throwing blame around?

If you think that the ACA is horrible, you can also thank the GOP.  It should have been called GOPCare.   As it stands now, it's what we have, it is better than what we had, but it can still use some work.  The GOP plan right now is to postpone until they can defund and overturn.  That's it!  They don't want something better like single-payer.  They want the status quo.  They have proven that they are unable to deal in good faith, so why should anyone deal with them?!

What single-payer country has better stats? If you need a hip replacement when you are 70, which country would you rather be in? If you need a heart valve replaced, where would you rather be? Prostate cancer? The list goes on and on. Do you really expect our system, that gets you into an MRI within days instead of months, to be there a few years after a single payer system is in place? I wish your utopian dream would come true, but it is a dream that cannot fit with reality. If your hope of single payer in the US comes to pass, it will be the end of medical innovation.

Ah, the same tired shiat from a few years ago.  *yawn*


That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?
 
2013-10-01 07:27:59 PM  

Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.


that's sort of what I thought. My Grandfather was in WWII (on our side) and voted for Adlai Stevenson ffs.
Can any of you conceive of a time when Democrats actually enlisted in the Armed Forces of the United States?
 
2013-10-01 07:28:58 PM  

MarkEC: That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?


Listen, we have the greatest level of medical spending with one of the worst returns in terms of quality and quantity of care in the entire developed world.  It is a grand lie that our healthcare system is amazing.  There is excellent service available for those who can afford it.  That's about where it ends.  Having experienced both ends of the spectrum first hand, I can tell you that we are truly mediocre.
 
2013-10-01 07:29:48 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P


Oh, I always forget about those.  I want one of those.
 
2013-10-01 07:31:15 PM  

CheekyMonkey: In contrast, I went hiking in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area today, and was sorely disappointed to find no "trails closed" barriers for me to ignore.


Lazy Federal employees
 
2013-10-01 07:32:59 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P


As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.
 
2013-10-01 07:33:07 PM  
Let's be honest here, people are nasty, dirty creatures that need rules and rule enforcers to keep them from literally dropping trou and shiatting where ever they like.  Since the pants dropper doesn't have tissue, he'll rub his ass on the bushes.  Trash overflowing.  Food decomposing every where.  Let's not even get into the idiot vandals who destroy things for the fark of it all.

The things that we are proud of in this country or are symbols of this country need people to protect them from other people.  Without that we would have no nice things.

That is why all of these easily accessible monuments / parks are closed today.  Because no one trusts you to not shiat on Abe's lap. And let's be honest, you would if you could.
 
2013-10-01 07:43:03 PM  

historycat: HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P

As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.


If they are all still on the job, who is missing such that criminals will sweep in and ruin everything?!  "Oh, cops are everywhere, but the litter sweeper guy is missing.  Now's my chance!  I'm going take a giant shiat on the memorial!"
 
2013-10-01 07:44:08 PM  

vrax: MarkEC: That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?

Listen, we have the greatest level of medical spending with one of the worst returns in terms of quality and quantity of care in the entire developed world.  It is a grand lie that our healthcare system is amazing.  There is excellent service available for those who can afford it.  That's about where it ends.  Having experienced both ends of the spectrum first hand, I can tell you that we are truly mediocre.


So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?
 
2013-10-01 08:30:38 PM  

MarkEC: vrax: MarkEC: That's a witty retort if I've ever seen one. Don't explain why you think I'm wrong, just call it tired shiat. Do you really expect our medical system to be the place to go for foreigners who have issues their own country expects them to just go away with? How many Americans go overseas (or to Canada or Mexico) to get medical procedures not available here compared to people from other countries that come here for stuff they can't get in their own country?

Listen, we have the greatest level of medical spending with one of the worst returns in terms of quality and quantity of care in the entire developed world.  It is a grand lie that our healthcare system is amazing.  There is excellent service available for those who can afford it.  That's about where it ends.  Having experienced both ends of the spectrum first hand, I can tell you that we are truly mediocre.

So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?


Just because we do some things well, doesn't mean we have a great healthcare system.  What we should be doing is examining the best healthcare systems in the world and creating our own, best-of-breed version.  One of the reasons we are greatly outranked is because there is a great disparity between those who have access to good care and those who are underserved or not served at all.  Healthcare can be no greater than your access to it.
 
2013-10-01 08:40:34 PM  

MarkEC: So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?


There is no "best". Like the folly of claiming a single country as "best" it ignore that fact that each system is a monolithic attempt to serve a population with a wide range of needs and available resources.

You can say, devoid of the meaningful context that puts it in perspective, that it can take months to get an MRI in Canada and that's true. It can. But if I need an MRI right now because I have a piece of rebar sticking out my goddamn face I think I would better appreciate the fact that the guy waiting a few weeks is getting one because his doctor is trying to rule out a long shot possibility about what's causing his headaches.

Healthcare in this country is EXCEPTIONAL for people like me who have very good health coverage or the very wealthy who can afford any level of healthcare themselves out of pocket.

It is complete shiat for anybody working two jobs at minimum wage with no employer health coverage and two kids. I can get an MRI whenever the bloody fark I want. I can take time off to get it, it won't cost me a lot out of pocket and I can drive to the hospital 1.5 miles away with no trouble. Meanwhile, there's people living less than five miles from me right this minute who probably can't afford to get their kid a $20 flu shot at the local pharmacy and have no time to get there while it's open anyway.

Whether any individual system is better than any other, then, is going to be extremely dependent on exactly who you ask. Personally, I'm okay with giving up some of my convenience based health access if it means people with no access at all get some basic care. I'm a nice guy like that. I think society was created for a reason and I'm willing to accept some measure of sacrifice now so that if I ever wind up in need in the future through some misfortune I have that safety net available as well.
 
2013-10-01 08:44:18 PM  

jjorsett: skozlaw: So arrest them (and King) for trespassing. And slap King with additional charges of disturbing the peace and interfering with police duties.

Shutdown means shutdown. If you don't like it, don't vote for lunatics that do things like this.

Yes, by all means send the federal equivalent of mall cops to try to clap in the slammer people who faced down Hitler and Tojo. That'll get the public on your side.


It's not without precedent to beat up vets asking for their due in DC:

www.newseum.org
 
2013-10-01 08:56:58 PM  

Cataholic: Amos Quito: OMG!

Just went to the Grand Canyon National Park webpage: www.nps.gov/grca/

THEY CLOSED THE GRAND CANYON!

[arizonablogging.net image 550x311]

Where will all the water from the Colorado River go now?

Mount Rushmore is closed as well.

We are paying Christo $10 Million to cover it up so that nobody can see it.  Because it's closed.


Cool!  Let's sneak into George Washington's nostril and fark!

i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-10-01 09:10:14 PM  
I demonstrate contempt for the law. I am a i.imgur.com
 
2013-10-01 09:11:32 PM  

I_C_Weener: Deep Contact: Hope they all lit up Lucky Strikes and beat up the guards.

Then handed out chocolate to bystanders.


Then sexually propositioned French, Italian and Filipina tourists.
 
2013-10-01 09:20:06 PM  

MFAWG: The derp is STRONG in this thread, as the usual suspects hide behind other people's uniforms to feel better about the fact that they've never contributed a farking thing to this country unless they were forced too.


I corrected your grammar, so there's that.
 
2013-10-01 09:25:36 PM  

Fusilier: Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.

that's sort of what I thought. My Grandfather was in WWII (on our side) and voted for Adlai Stevenson ffs.
Can any of you conceive of a time when Democrats actually enlisted in the Armed Forces of the United States?


That was back when the US fought wars it was forced into by foreign dictators, not because it felt like it, and because it had been a while since the last one.
 
2013-10-01 09:36:22 PM  

FarkingBabs: PunGent: I see Rep. Steve King, R-IA, lacks the courage of his convictions.

I must admit that I am thoroughly enjoying his newest book, Doctor Sleep.


Is it good?  I liked his recent time-travel one, the title escapes me atm.
 
2013-10-01 09:46:17 PM  

vrax: historycat: HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P

As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.

If they are all still on the job, who is missing such that criminals will sweep in and ruin everything?!  "Oh, cops are everywhere, but the litter sweeper guy is missing.  Now's my chance!  I'm going take a giant shiat on the memorial!"


Actually, National Park Law Enforcement goes through the same training academy as the ATF, and DEA.  But don't let facts get in the way of your moronic story.
 
2013-10-01 09:50:51 PM  

IlGreven: I only wish civilians had as much fight in them as these guys.

/But then, I'd expect a lot more resistance if civilians pulled this kind of stunt...


They are civilians.  During WW2 they weren't, but now they are.
 
2013-10-01 09:57:18 PM  

skozlaw: MarkEC: So which system out there do you think is better? Canada? Where getting an MRI is a months long wait where here you an get it in days. The UK? Where you have a much lower cancer survival rate?

There is no "best". Like the folly of claiming a single country as "best" it ignore that fact that each system is a monolithic attempt to serve a population with a wide range of needs and available resources.

You can say, devoid of the meaningful context that puts it in perspective, that it can take months to get an MRI in Canada and that's true. It can. But if I need an MRI right now because I have a piece of rebar sticking out my goddamn face I think I would better appreciate the fact that the guy waiting a few weeks is getting one because his doctor is trying to rule out a long shot possibility about what's causing his headaches.

Healthcare in this country is EXCEPTIONAL for people like me who have very good health coverage or the very wealthy who can afford any level of healthcare themselves out of pocket.

It is complete shiat for anybody working two jobs at minimum wage with no employer health coverage and two kids. I can get an MRI whenever the bloody fark I want. I can take time off to get it, it won't cost me a lot out of pocket and I can drive to the hospital 1.5 miles away with no trouble. Meanwhile, there's people living less than five miles from me right this minute who probably can't afford to get their kid a $20 flu shot at the local pharmacy and have no time to get there while it's open anyway.

Whether any individual system is better than any other, then, is going to be extremely dependent on exactly who you ask. Personally, I'm okay with giving up some of my convenience based health access if it means people with no access at all get some basic care. I'm a nice guy like that. I think society was created for a reason and I'm willing to accept some measure of sacrifice now so that if I ever wind up in need in the future through some misfortune I have ...


It's also proven to be far more cost-effective.  In fact, there's a pattern in what Republicans claim is cost-effective: In most cases, it would be more cost-effective to implement the plan the Republicans are fighting against.
 
2013-10-01 10:15:05 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: IlGreven: I only wish civilians had as much fight in them as these guys.

/But then, I'd expect a lot more resistance if civilians pulled this kind of stunt...

They are civilians.  During WW2 they weren't, but now they are.


Try telling that to a retired Marine
 
2013-10-01 10:18:34 PM  

Fusilier: Can any of you conceive of a time when Democrats actually enlisted in the Armed Forces of the United States?


You mean 1830s to present?
 
2013-10-01 10:19:11 PM  

historycat: vrax: historycat: HindiDiscoMonster: vrax: historycat: Dear everyone biatching about barricades in front of monuments.

Who would you blame when these monuments are vandalized during the government shut down?

When trash collects around the monuments?

When homeless people are living in Lincoln's lap?

Wouldn't that be a great image for America to send around the world?

And will you pay to clean up that mess weeks or months from now when the government reopens?  Or will you sell those parks because you failed to maintain them?

The Jefferson Memorial, brought to you by Carl's Jr.

The National Park Service has as its mission to preserve these sacred spaces.  Putting barricades up to protect them because Congress won't pay people to protect them.

How does a barricade stop any of that?

it's a magic barracade... :P

As seen in the pictures the Law Enforcement Rangers are still on the Job, as are the Capitol Police.

The barriers slow people down so the LE Rangers will stop them.

Also, the barriers provide a clear line. 
Try climbing over them.  Ya, you can overwhelm the skeleton crew and barricades as in the story, but it does help keep out most of the well meaning public.

Also, it makes the closure legally enforceable.  You can't arrest them for trespassing until there is a clear line for them to cross.

If they are all still on the job, who is missing such that criminals will sweep in and ruin everything?!  "Oh, cops are everywhere, but the litter sweeper guy is missing.  Now's my chance!  I'm going take a giant shiat on the memorial!"

Actually, National Park Law Enforcement goes through the same training academy as the ATF, and DEA.  But don't let facts get in the way of your moronic story.


Err, what?  I was simply saying that if cops are still on duty, why would someone do something horrible to the memorial simply because the trash sweeper dude isn't.

It was a good story.  *harrumph*
 
2013-10-01 10:32:59 PM  
This is almost like how the Egyptian liberals kept blaming Mubarak for everything bad, while the Muslim Brotherhood went around fixing things and helping people.

/just remember, the same people who are now proclaiming the government shutdown is a complete disaster, are the same ones that told you we needed to invade Syria to help the rebels overthrow a nerve gas spraying Assad three weeks ago
//fool you twice, shame on who?
 
2013-10-01 11:10:56 PM  

MarkEC: Then you agree that, as written, it's horrible. It causes employers to lower employees work hours to be exempt from the law. To me that is not unintended consequences, but is on purpose. "We wrote the law thinking it would help everyone, but those evil corporations found a loophole" is a disingenuous excuse.


There's a difference with a law in serious need of improvements and being a horrible law.  I certainly think it needs to be reformed - but repealed would be even worse.
 
2013-10-01 11:59:58 PM  
The Memorial always make me think of "Metropolis" (and, occasionally, Lani Riefenstahl.
 
2013-10-02 12:11:34 AM  

DubyaHater: Bad things can happen when large groups of people come together


We saw an example of that about 24 hours ago...
 
2013-10-02 12:59:18 AM  
How does anyone look at this and not recognize it as a huge Republican Set-Up PR moment?
Sure, totally not staged.
 
2013-10-02 01:08:15 AM  

gadian: Let's be honest here, people are nasty, dirty creatures that need rules and rule enforcers to keep them from literally dropping trou and shiatting where ever they like.


Pictures from the Occupy movement seem to support your claim.
 
2013-10-02 01:15:33 AM  

ds615: How does anyone look at this and not recognize it as a huge Republican Set-Up PR moment?
Sure, totally not staged.


Maybe because this particular memorial run had been planned months in advance, long before anyone was talking about a government shutdown.  Lots of communities sponsor these trips for veterans so it's unsurprising that there was a group there today.
 
2013-10-02 01:22:11 AM  
It's fitting that Yosemite took the day off for its 123rd birthday.
 
2013-10-02 02:26:10 AM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: Fusilier: Ker_Thwap: How the holy hell can people be treating this article as a left vs. right contest?  Veterans come in all flavors.

that's sort of what I thought. My Grandfather was in WWII (on our side) and voted for Adlai Stevenson ffs.
Can any of you conceive of a time when Democrats actually enlisted in the Armed Forces of the United States?

That was back when the US fought wars it was forced into by foreign dictators, not because it felt like it, and because it had been a while since the last one.


*raises hand* Democrat, enlisted two months after September 11th... I know of at least a dozen others who I met over the years as well, possibly more but we weren't exactly encouraged to talk politics while on duty. /shrug
 
2013-10-02 02:43:11 AM  

Pitabred: Lawnchair: Lord_Baull: Is it me, or does putting barricades in front of a public area just because there's no one to pick up trash around the area sound really stupid?

No, not just you.  I'm a lefty-lefty, but there's a lot of dumb drama going on here too.  I've already hit a couple of federal websites that are blacked out (some Library of Congress links, some Census Factfinder figures).  I mean, seriously, the servers are there.  They're presumably still plugged in (enough to give me the "shut down" message anyway).  Blocking the info is pedantic.  Seriously... websites run by Orthodox Jews don't shut down for the Sabbath (on the "we're not doing work by leaving this running" reasoning).  There's no reason to shut down the websites.  Or public grounds.  I know, employees can't work, but get the Boy Scouts out to pick up trash or whatever.

Running a single serve to say "Sorry, we're closed" is a lot less expensive than running the tens of servers that contain the actual information. Believe it or not, websites aren't magic or free.


Except that I know for a fact that in at least one agency, all the servers are actually still running (they specifically decided they would not be turned off to avoid problems because of power-cycling), they just slapped a firewall rule and a web redirect in.  So they're spending just about as much money running the datacenter as they were anyway.

So yeah, dumb drama.  It would actually make a more powerful statement if they interpreted "shutdown" literally, and the power-cycle caused a bunch of equipment failures that they could point to and say "see what your stupid farking shutdown has done?"
 
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