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(Yahoo)   What happens when nuclear fusion goes wrong? "It implodes like a porcupine"   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 31
    More: Strange, nuclear fusions, Atomic Nucleus, radioactive waste, kinetic energy, billionths, fusion reactors, National Ignition Facility, ITER  
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3354 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Oct 2013 at 11:49 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



31 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-01 11:46:34 AM
si0.twimg.com
 
2013-10-01 11:47:25 AM
I've been reading a good book called Ignition! that chronicles the development of rocket propellants. It took them about 30 years to get the fundamentals down, and they're just going from "bomb chemicals" to "rocket chemicals".

This is arguably a much harder job.
 
2013-10-01 11:54:42 AM
I have never seen a porcupine implode, but I might be willing to pay for the privilege if the price were right.
 
2013-10-01 11:58:57 AM
Jeez, I wish they'd HURRY UP and scale up and demo polywell fusion to see if it actually works or not. The suspense is annoying me.....
 
2013-10-01 12:03:46 PM

mark12A: Jeez, I wish they'd HURRY UP and scale up and demo polywell fusion to see if it actually works or not. The suspense is annoying me.....


I think Polywell will only really happen if they can get someone like Elon Musk to invest. They need at least ten, and probably more like a hundred, times more cash than they have.
 
2013-10-01 12:04:13 PM
Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
 
2013-10-01 12:04:49 PM

mark12A: Jeez, I wish they'd HURRY UP and scale up and demo polywell fusion to see if it actually works or not. The suspense is annoying me.....


Since the Navy is funding the work, it will be a long time before we hear anything.
 
2013-10-01 12:08:24 PM

Ambitwistor: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.


Right.  So that's bad.  Thanks Ray.  Try not to cross the streams everybody!
 
2013-10-01 12:10:07 PM
FTFA:

That got the NIF closer to the "scientific break-even point," where the amount of energy that comes out of the fusion reaction is equal to that which was put in by the kinetic energy from the implosion. (The energy from the laser isn't counted in the calculation). Right now, the amount of energy coming out of the NIF setup is about 80 percent of what is put in.

Sounds like the actual percentage is much, much lower than 80%.
 
2013-10-01 12:32:58 PM
images4.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-10-01 12:38:04 PM

draypresct: FTFA:

That got the NIF closer to the "scientific break-even point," where the amount of energy that comes out of the fusion reaction is equal to that which was put in by the kinetic energy from the implosion. (The energy from the laser isn't counted in the calculation). Right now, the amount of energy coming out of the NIF setup is about 80 percent of what is put in.

Sounds like the actual percentage is much, much lower than 80%.


The kinetic energy is from the lasers, but they aren't counting the inefficiencies of the lasers.
 
2013-10-01 12:46:17 PM
 
2013-10-01 12:51:05 PM

ikanreed: draypresct: FTFA:

That got the NIF closer to the "scientific break-even point," where the amount of energy that comes out of the fusion reaction is equal to that which was put in by the kinetic energy from the implosion. (The energy from the laser isn't counted in the calculation). Right now, the amount of energy coming out of the NIF setup is about 80 percent of what is put in.

Sounds like the actual percentage is much, much lower than 80%.

The kinetic energy is from the lasers, but they aren't counting the inefficiencies of the lasers.


That makes sense - thanks.
 
2013-10-01 01:04:49 PM
TFA says the "waste" is usually just Helium. I wonder in what quantities, as i know we are running out of Helium.

This could kill two birds with one stone.
 
2013-10-01 01:23:00 PM

LuRkeR25: [images4.wikia.nocookie.net image 128x85]


Given that we don't have the microwave power plant yet, I don't see why people are expecting fusion power plants anytime soon.
 
db2
2013-10-01 01:24:13 PM
Do... do porcupines do that?
 
2013-10-01 01:46:03 PM
I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?
 
2013-10-01 01:48:24 PM

db2: Do... do porcupines do that?


The fossils of imploded porcupines are called geodes. Thought everyone knew that...
 
2013-10-01 01:56:50 PM
Imploding Porcupine would be a great band name
 
2013-10-01 02:13:09 PM

db2: Do... do porcupines do that?


lilbjorn: I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?


I came in to ask if that was something porcupines did, so both of these.
 
2013-10-01 02:15:14 PM
That analogy makes about as much sense as a yodeling whale
 
2013-10-01 03:08:12 PM

lilbjorn: I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?


I assume it would be like a mol of moles
 
2013-10-01 03:34:54 PM

moistD: lilbjorn: I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?

I assume it would be like a mol of moles


huh...I wonder if 6.02x10^23 moles would have enough mass that the gravity at the center would be strong enough to initiate a fusion reaction.
 
2013-10-01 03:42:31 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: moistD: lilbjorn: I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?

I assume it would be like a mol of moles

huh...I wonder if 6.02x10^23 moles would have enough mass that the gravity at the center would be strong enough to initiate a fusion reaction.


http://what-if.xkcd.com/4/
 
2013-10-01 03:44:10 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: moistD: lilbjorn: I never heard of a porcupine imploding.  How does that work?

I assume it would be like a mol of moles

huh...I wonder if 6.02x10^23 moles would have enough mass that the gravity at the center would be strong enough to initiate a fusion reaction.


Nope.
 
2013-10-01 04:59:48 PM

WorkingInParadise: db2: Do... do porcupines do that?

The fossils of imploded porcupines are called geodes. Thought everyone knew that...


Well I'll be damned.

www.mineral-forum.com
 
2013-10-01 05:40:05 PM
It looks more like a poop with knives in it.
 
2013-10-01 08:01:37 PM

draypresct: FTFA:

That got the NIF closer to the "scientific break-even point," where the amount of energy that comes out of the fusion reaction is equal to that which was put in by the kinetic energy from the implosion. (The energy from the laser isn't counted in the calculation). Right now, the amount of energy coming out of the NIF setup is about 80 percent of what is put in.

Sounds like the actual percentage is much, much lower than 80%.


If i wanted to see how much energy was released when I burned a candle, I wouldn't count the heat source that started the flame.
 
2013-10-01 10:15:59 PM

draypresct: FTFA:

That got the NIF closer to the "scientific break-even point," where the amount of energy that comes out of the fusion reaction is equal to that which was put in by the kinetic energy from the implosion. (The energy from the laser isn't counted in the calculation). Right now, the amount of energy coming out of the NIF setup is about 80 percent of what is put in.

Sounds like the actual percentage is much, much lower than 80%.


Yes and no.

Imagine the laser is the starter of your car. When your car is turning over, you haven't "broke even" and started the car into a self sustaining state. Once the car starts, the starter de-activates, and the car is now able to replenish the energy used to start it over a little time while it keeps running until the fuel depletes.

The primary goal of fusors is to get them to run themselves. The fuel is so incredibly cheap and efficient that it is almost inconsequential the energy and costs it takes to start: it will be able to pay that back much sooner than any other tech out there.

/working on an IEC fusor, hopefully going to have time for a Polywell too.
 
2013-10-01 10:28:21 PM
So what we're talking about here is an internal implosion porcupine engine?
 
2013-10-02 01:27:19 AM

Dedmon: If i wanted to see how much energy was released when I burned a candle, I wouldn't count the heat source that started the flame.


Correct. Now find us a fusion candle.

Oops.
 
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