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(CNN)   Say, what's Obama up to while the Congress is screwing around with his healthcare bill? Oh, preventing nuclear war in the Middle East... I guess that's important, too   (cnn.com) divider line 72
    More: Interesting, Obama, Iran nuclear, Benjamin Netanyahu, Iran, charm offensives, Hassan Rowhani, overtures, United Nations General Assembly  
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2199 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Sep 2013 at 8:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-30 04:50:46 PM  
Hey, that's that leadership I keep hearing about.
 
2013-09-30 04:52:14 PM  
I've never heard golf described like that before.
 
2013-09-30 04:54:25 PM  
Hope he gets that hook straightened out
 
2013-09-30 05:00:05 PM  
you mean the president is capable of concentrating on more than one problem at a time?  the hell you say!
 
2013-09-30 06:44:40 PM  

EatenTheSun: I've never heard golf described like that before.


There's nothing this man can't do. AT THE SAME TIME.
 
2013-09-30 07:02:36 PM  
Thanks Obama!
 
2013-09-30 07:05:38 PM  
Grown ups talking. Imagine that.
 
2013-09-30 07:18:17 PM  
Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.
 
2013-09-30 07:26:54 PM  

EatenTheSun: I've never heard golf described like that before.


You've never played with a hardcore golfer.
 
2013-09-30 07:49:41 PM  

ManateeGag: you mean the president is capable of concentrating on more than one problem at a time?  the hell you say!


This is what happens when you elect a grown-up.  They can multitask and do more than one thing at the same time.
 
2013-09-30 07:50:05 PM  
The Iranians say they just want a nuclear reactor for power, right? I say we take them at their word, say "Fine, we'll even help you build it. As long as you agree to total transparency and regular inspections by the UN to make sure you aren't trying to make a nuclear weapon".

Or am I being naive?
 
2013-09-30 07:51:01 PM  

RedPhoenix122: EatenTheSun: I've never heard golf described like that before.

You've never played with a hardcore golfer.


My few ventures onto the golf course have involved a lot of alcohol, golf cart shenanigans, and throwing a ball down somewhere close to where I last saw the one I hit.
 
2013-09-30 07:51:10 PM  
I wonder where the President picked up his passion for the sport of golf? How does the game define the man? How does he manage to balance the passion with his responsibility for the country? This is truly a man of his time.
 
2013-09-30 08:06:23 PM  
Obama is talking with Israel about Iran but republicans would rather talk about golf.  Telling.
 
2013-09-30 08:08:54 PM  
i25.photobucket.com
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-30 08:09:56 PM  

doglover: [i25.photobucket.com image 799x494]


He's black!
 
2013-09-30 08:11:55 PM  

haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.


Who was the Kevin in that interview?  It is very familiar.
 
2013-09-30 08:16:15 PM  

EatenTheSun: RedPhoenix122: EatenTheSun: I've never heard golf described like that before.

You've never played with a hardcore golfer.

My few ventures onto the golf course have involved a lot of alcohol, golf cart shenanigans, and throwing a ball down somewhere close to where I last saw the one I hit.


Sounds like golf alright.
 
2013-09-30 08:24:53 PM  

vpb: doglover: [i25.photobucket.com image 799x494]

He's black!


Only from the suit neck up.
 
2013-09-30 08:35:05 PM  

James!: Obama is talking with Israel about Iran but republicans would rather talk about golf.  Telling.


LOL.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-09-30 08:37:48 PM  
Tomorrow's Fox Headline:

Obama put nuclear weapons manufacturers out of business.
 
2013-09-30 08:41:51 PM  

d23: Tomorrow's Fox Headline:

Obama put nuclear weapons manufacturers out of business.


CNNs headline today: President slays the the GOP over budget, while keeping peace in the Middle-East. Shoots 2 under par.
 
2013-09-30 08:41:55 PM  
Thanks, Obama!

/ no, really
 
2013-09-30 08:42:21 PM  

haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.


BBC recently had a good write up on Chamberlain:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24300094
 
2013-09-30 08:43:31 PM  

d23: Tomorrow's Fox Headline:

Obama put nuclear weapons manufacturers out of business.


Day-after tomorrow's Fox Headline: US exports to Israel down 12% since Obama, Netanyahu meeting.
 
2013-09-30 08:45:04 PM  
History's greatest monster.
 
2013-09-30 08:47:03 PM  
It's like that time Donald Trump was being all ... Himself. And Obama was like, biatch please, i'm trying to get Osama over here.
 
2013-09-30 08:49:56 PM  
www.globalnerdy.com
 
2013-09-30 08:51:37 PM  
Like it matters... once Obamacare goes into effect, America is going to look like a post-nuclear hellscape anyway.
 
2013-09-30 08:52:27 PM  

fusillade762: The Iranians say they just want a nuclear reactor for power, right? I say we take them at their word, say "Fine, we'll even help you build it. As long as you agree to total transparency and regular inspections by the UN to make sure you aren't trying to make a nuclear weapon".

Or am I being naive?


The offer was made in the past. The response was along the lines of "screw you, we don't trust you not to dick us over whenever it's convenient for you".

Which, given history, isn't exactly an unreasonable concern
 
2013-09-30 08:59:29 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Like it matters... once Obamacare goes into effect, America is going to look like a post-nuclear hellscape anyway.


This is true. In fact, the script is in the works right now, "A Boy and His Dog 2: Obama's Boogaloo."
 
2013-09-30 09:00:34 PM  
Talking about Iran with Israel isn't necessarily preventing a war. Obama can lower our expectations from both sides, but that also doesn't guarantee Iran won't go nuclear or Israel won't strike.
Iran can avoid a war all by its lonesome by conceding to the established UN demands.

/I mean, really, what's the big deal with the phone call to Iran's president?
/"Hello Iran, you done all that shiat we asked you to do? No!? Ok, bye"*click*.
/you could call half the leaders in the world before lunch.
 
2013-09-30 09:04:21 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Like it matters... once Obamacare goes into effect, America is going to look like a post-nuclear hellscape anyway.


If only there was some first world country with universal healthcare that could warn us.
 
2013-09-30 09:04:33 PM  

way south: Talking about Iran with Israel isn't necessarily preventing a war. Obama can lower our expectations from both sides, but that also doesn't guarantee Iran won't go nuclear or Israel won't strike.
Iran can avoid a war all by its lonesome by conceding to the established UN demands.

/I mean, really, what's the big deal with the phone call to Iran's president?
/"Hello Iran, you done all that shiat we asked you to do? No!? Ok, bye"*click*.
/you could call half the leaders in the world before lunch.


But unlike the GOP, Iran can be reasoned with.
 
2013-09-30 09:05:14 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.

BBC recently had a good write up on Chamberlain:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24300094


That was indeed a good writeup. I always felt that Chamberlain was a bit too optomistic, but... Hmm.

Sometimes in Europa Universalis, i refused a Call to Arms from an ally, because I simply was not ready for a war against a major power, and need more time to recruit troops...
 
2013-09-30 09:06:18 PM  
Don't worry. Israel's 80+ nukes are mid and short range and could never reach Ameri
 
2013-09-30 09:12:17 PM  
Yeah, Iran and Israel are really going to be forthcoming about their nuclear programs now.
 
2013-09-30 09:12:35 PM  

haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.


The correct answer, of course:
"The problem really spiraled out of control starting in '37, when he allowed Hitler to ignore the Locarno and Versailles Treaties and remilitarize the Rhineland DMZ.  Then he ignored the pleas of the majority of Austrian people to come bail them out when the Germans negotiated Anschluss - unification - with the Austrian government.  It hit the point of no return when Chamberlain urged the government of Czechoslovakia to negotiate and come up with the best possible terms for ceding the Sudetenland rather than telling the French that they would offer assistance in any French enforcement of the mutual defense pact that France had with Czechoslovakia."

THAT'S what Chamberlain did wrong... but foreign policy hawks don't bother with facts, they just say "negotiation is appeasement!  CHAMBERLAIN!  HITLER!  WHARRGARBL!"
 
2013-09-30 09:12:52 PM  
The rest of the world didn't stop spinning just because the teahadists and the not-quite-teahadists are squabbling. Man's got a job to do, and he's doing it.

I just wish Congress would do the same thing.
 
2013-09-30 09:14:43 PM  

stratagos: fusillade762: The Iranians say they just want a nuclear reactor for power, right? I say we take them at their word, say "Fine, we'll even help you build it. As long as you agree to total transparency and regular inspections by the UN to make sure you aren't trying to make a nuclear weapon".

Or am I being naive?

The offer was made in the past. The response was along the lines of "screw you, we don't trust you not to dick us over whenever it's convenient for you".

Which, given history, isn't exactly an unreasonable concern


[shrug]

ANY time you negotiate with another country--especially over issues like this--both sides have to agree to trust the other and agree that there will always be mutual distrust based on past actions. After all, this isn't as easy as opening your kid's bedroom door to see if they're smoking pot. Everyone keeps presupposing what Iran will do based on preconceived notions that may or may not have any basis in reality: "They won't abide by nuclear treaties because they really WANT to nuke Israel/declare jihad on the whole world/don't mind dying for Allah/whatever." Or else we demand a surety that simply cannot be assured: "We can't guarantee they won't use their reactor to develop nuclear weapons, so until we can be sure..." conveniently forgetting anything can be used in both harmful and helpful ways.

On their part, Iran has to agree to trust a nation that has screwed them twice in just the last 60 years and refused to talk to them at all in the last 30 "until you stop being savages and completely remake your government to fit our needs." (Paraphrase of Condi Rice but not by much) having seen what we did to Iraq when Saddam stopped playing nice.

Trust doesn't mean blindly accepting Iran at their word. They still have a lot more to lose than we do; but for negotiations to work, BOTH sides have to agree to give up something. If America refuses to give up anything until Iran gives up everything, then that's not negotiation, that's highway robbery. And usually in negotiation, the stronger side is the one to make the demonstration of good faith. That would be us. What exactly are we afraid of if we agree to even negotiate with Iran? That the Middle East might hate us?
 
2013-09-30 09:21:20 PM  

haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.


That was one of the greatest shutdowns in history and I remember seeing it live. News and Journalism used to mean something in this country.
 
2013-09-30 09:23:24 PM  

Rhino_man: haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.

The correct answer, of course:
"The problem really spiraled out of control starting in '37, when he allowed Hitler to ignore the Locarno and Versailles Treaties and remilitarize the Rhineland DMZ.  Then he ignored the pleas of the majority of Austrian people to come bail them out when the Germans negotiated Anschluss - unification - with the Austrian government.  It hit the point of no return when Chamberlain urged the government of Czechoslovakia to negotiate and come up with the best possible terms for ceding the Sudetenland rather than telling the French that they would offer assistance in any French enforcement of the mutual defense pact that France had with Czechoslovakia."

THAT'S what Chamberlain did wrong... but foreign policy hawks don't bother with facts, they just say "negotiation is appeasement!  CHAMBERLAIN!  HITLER!  WHARRGARBL!"


The question I have is what were the relative states of the British Army to the Germans in '38? Yes the British Navy was still rulers of the sea (despite the fact Churchill was desperate for old American destroyers in 1940) but were the Tommys any match for the Germans? Sure two years later, nope, but was there a chance? Hell, it might have been even worse in '38. I honestly don't know.

/I assume it's been addressed somewhere but it's tough to wade through the "appeasement!!" books lists
//and as someone familiar with World War I, I'm sure Chamberlain was just keen to throw lives away to move a trench six inches toward Berlin.
 
2013-09-30 09:24:54 PM  
He's probably on vacation, dreaming of ways to steal the hard-earned money from patriotic Americans and give it away to socialist death panels to ruin all insurance everywhere or something. You know.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-30 09:25:44 PM  

way south: Talking about Iran with Israel isn't necessarily preventing a war. Obama can lower our expectations from both sides, but that also doesn't guarantee Iran won't go nuclear or Israel won't strike.
Iran can avoid a war all by its lonesome by conceding to the established UN demands.


It's amazing how many people don't have enough sense to avoid pushing things too far.
 
2013-09-30 09:31:41 PM  

fusillade762: The Iranians say they just want a nuclear reactor for power, right? I say we take them at their word, say "Fine, we'll even help you build it. As long as you agree to total transparency and regular inspections by the UN to make sure you aren't trying to make a nuclear weapon".

Or am I being naive?


We've offered them that.  They point out that they have as much right to nuclear weapons as Israel, Pakistan and India.

/They've kinda got a point there.

/the Shah started the nuclear program in the 1970s
//because he knew the oil would eventually run out.
 
2013-09-30 09:41:54 PM  

whither_apophis: The question I have is what were the relative states of the British Army to the Germans in '38? Yes the British Navy was still rulers of the sea (despite the fact Churchill was desperate for old American destroyers in 1940) but were the Tommys any match for the Germans? Sure two years later, nope, but was there a chance? Hell, it might have been even worse in '38. I honestly don't know.

/I assume it's been addressed somewhere but it's tough to wade through the "appeasement!!" books lists
//and as someone familiar with World War I, I'm sure Chamberlain was just keen to throw lives away to move a trench six inches toward Berlin.


I'm not sure; I suspect at best they were at parity. You might check Bill Fawcett's war histories (How to Lose a War, etc.) because he does good analyses of relative military abilities.

More important than the ACTUAL capability, though, is the psychological factor. People, even in England and France, forget that post-WWI, most of Europe absolutely did not want another war, and in fact up to 1938, just about anything seemed reasonable if it meant not having to go through five more years of carnage and death. It wasn't until 1939 when Hitler went through Poland like a steel tornado that the world realized a) what they'd bought with the Sudentenland, and b) that the face of war was no longer stagnant lines of trenches. It was only after that, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, that Chamberlain became an "appeaser". If Hitler had settled down behind trenches and barbed wire in Poland, Chamberlain's gamble would have seemed genius.
 
2013-09-30 09:47:11 PM  

whither_apophis: The correct answer, of course:
"The problem really spiraled out of control starting in '37, when he allowed Hitler to ignore the Locarno and Versailles Treaties and remilitarize the Rhineland DMZ.  Then he ignored the pleas of the majority of Austrian people to come bail them out when the Germans negotiated Anschluss - unification - with the Austrian government.  It hit the point of no return when Chamberlain urged the government of Czechoslovakia to negotiate and come up with the best possible terms for ceding the Sudetenland rather than telling the French that they would offer assistance in any French enforcement of the mutual defense pact that France had with Czechoslovakia."

THAT'S what Chamberlain did wrong... but foreign policy hawks don't bother with facts, they just say "negotiation is appeasement!  CHAMBERLAIN!  HITLER!  WHARRGARBL!"

The question I have is what were the relative states of the British Army to the Germans in '38? Yes the British Navy was still rulers of the sea (despite the fact Churchill was desperate for old American destroyers in 1940) but were the Tommys any match for the Germans? Sure two years later, nope, but was there a chance? Hell, it might have been even worse in '38. I honestly don't know.

/I assume it's been addressed somewhere but it's tough to wade through the "appeasement!!" books lists
//and as someone familiar with World War I, I'm sure Chamberlain was just keen to throw lives away to move a trench six inches toward Berlin.


I have to say as a history buff your assessment is pretty much spot on and the questions you ask are good ones. Truthfully in '38 I believe the French were done with war they lost a generation in the last one and we're only prepared for defense supposedly. The Brits I'm not sure on what forces they could've mustered in '38 in don't now if the even had the expeditionary force over there. Potentially an attack by the UK, France and Poland my have worked or it probably would have bogged down same as the German offensive in WW1 until the Germans finished their Panzer divisions and smashed the lines. The Armies of France and the UK spread their tanks out in infantry divisions. So even though the French had more and better tanks they were always outnumbered in tank on tank engagements. I don't think it would have made a difference to attack Germany.

Again war weary populations, prepared for defense, outdated tactics.
 
2013-09-30 09:51:40 PM  
Why are we still trying to prevent those idiots in that region from killing each other off again?
 
2013-09-30 09:56:21 PM  

whither_apophis: Rhino_man: haemaker: Chris: I want to do a little history check on you---what did Neville Chamberlain do wrong in 1939? What did he do wrong?
Kevin: It all goes back to appeasement. It's the key term.
Chris: No, what did he do, tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's the key term.
Chris: You have to answer this question. What did he do?
Kevin: It's the same thing, it puts it all...
Chris: Well tell me what he did?
Kevin: It's appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do wrong..
Kevin: His actions, his actions enabled, energized, legitimized
Chris: What did Chamberlain do?
Kevin: It's the exact same thing.
Chris: No stop, Kevin. I'm not going to continue with this interview unless you answer what that thing is. What did Chamberlain do in '39, tell me? '38?
Kevin: Chris, it's the exact same thing alright?
Chris: What did he do? <Yelling> What did he do!
Kevin: '38, '39 Chris what year do you want?
Chris: What did he do?
I want you to answer, what did Chamberlain?
He's talking, He's talking about appeasement.
Chris: What did Chamberlain do, just tell me what he did, Kevin? What did Chamberlain do that you didn't like?
Kevin: What, what Chamberlain did? <confused> What, what, the President was talking about, you just said the President was talking about Barack. Look...
Chris: You're making a reference to the days before our involvement in WWII. When the war in Europe began. I want you to tell me as an expert, what did Chamberlain do wrong.
Kevin: You're not going to box me in here, Chris. President Bush was making that. I'm glad, I'm glad.
Chris: You don't know, do you? You don't know what Neville Chamberlain did
Kevin: Yeah, he was an appeaser, Chris....
Chris: You are BS'ing me... You don't know what you're talking about.

The correct answer, of course:
"The problem really spiraled out of control starting in '37, when he allowed Hitler to ignore the Locarno and Versailles Treaties and remilitarize the Rhineland DMZ.  Then he ignored the pleas of the majority of Au ...


Seeing as how the German tank force consisted entirely of Panzer I, Panzer II tanks, the British could have used their existing stock of Vickers Medium Mk.II's, and pressed into service the Vickers 6-Ton Type B (which they manufactured, but only for export) and rapidly fielded a sufficient force to - with the aid of the French - stop the Germans from taking the Sudetenland... especially seeing as how the Czechs had a fantastically designed light tank, which would later be pressed into German service under the name Panzer 35(t) specifically because of how superior it was to the Panzer I and Panzer II.

This is especially true when you consider that the Maginot Line was the most impressive defensive fortification the world had ever seen at that point, and the only way the Germans defeated it was by using their powerful Panzer III tanks to push through the Ardennes forest and the low countries of Belgium and Poland.  The Germans had not yet conquered Poland or Belgium in 1937, and they hadn't developed the Panzer III yet, so they would have had no strategy capable of defeating French forces at the Maginot Line in 1937.  This would have made them extremely reluctant to attack French, British and Czech forces in Czechoslovakia, as it would have started an all-out war in which they would have the distinct disadvantage of fighting entirely on their own land.
 
2013-09-30 10:06:13 PM  
Not only has Obama saved us from at least 15 nuclear wars, by my count, at this point, but he also saved the world from rising tides destroying nations, just like he said he would before he was elected. Rising tides haven't destroyed any city in the world since he took office.
 
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