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(ABC)   Government to sue North Carolina, citing Sherman v. Georgia and an amicus brief to the sea   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 69
    More: Spiffy, North Carolina, amicus brief, state board of elections, home counties, poll taxes, Voting Rights Act  
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2075 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Sep 2013 at 11:23 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-30 11:26:47 AM
I hope the government's lawyers remember to bring their Photo ID to the courthouse in order to argue the case, since they'll be turned away without it.
 
2013-09-30 11:27:57 AM
Well.

I should say I'm surprised, but I live in North Carolina. I'm not surprised.
 
2013-09-30 11:28:15 AM
It's not really hard to prove intent when the idiots come right out and admit that D-voter suppression is the intended goal, is it?
 
2013-09-30 11:30:09 AM
Look, GOP- we all know that voter fraud is so rare as to be effectively non-existent. We all know EXACTLY why you do this kind of shiat, and it has exactly fark-all to do with protecting anyone. It's about suppressing those uppity brown people, nothing more, nothing less. If you believed in protecting anyone or anything except your own pathetic and bankrupt ideology, we wouldn't be facing a government shutdown, default on the debt of the country, gerrymandering across the south and racist voter ID laws.

Just go on and say it- you want Jim Crow back. We already know.
 
2013-09-30 11:30:42 AM
To be fair, I don't think the motivation is actually racial; they seem to care more about keeping the Democrat down than keeping the black man down.

As an NC poll worker, I find it annoying they want to make it harder to vote.

Sine we got a Republican governor, the State and county boards of election have all switched to Republican control. I wonder if they'll keep on adding barriers. I'm waiting to see them embrace an idea Ohio made Fark for floating: forbid poll workers from directing people to the proper polling place. (Especially combined with the provision in this law bundle forbidding people from casting out-of-precinct provisional ballots).
 
2013-09-30 11:33:47 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: To be fair, I don't think the motivation is actually racial; they seem to care more about keeping the Democrat down than keeping the black man down.

As an NC poll worker, I find it annoying they want to make it harder to vote.

Sine we got a Republican governor, the State and county boards of election have all switched to Republican control. I wonder if they'll keep on adding barriers. I'm waiting to see them embrace an idea Ohio made Fark for floating: forbid poll workers from directing people to the proper polling place. (Especially combined with the provision in this law bundle forbidding people from casting out-of-precinct provisional ballots).


I wonder if a fun end run around that would be "We have, however, posted a list of proper polling places on the wall behind you." or telling *another* person to tell them where their polling place was. "Jake, can we tell this person their proper polling place is at X?" "No, we're not allowed to do that." "Darn."
 
2013-09-30 11:33:52 AM

T-Servo: It's not really hard to prove intent when the idiots come right out and admit that D-voter suppression is the intended goal, is it?


The Supreme Court has ruled that kosher. It's apparently considered perfectly acceptable to bend election law to partisan advantage.

There's a BIG class of problems that stem from elected officials making election law. But what's the better way? (If I were king, I could design excellent election regulations, but what would be the point?)
 
2013-09-30 11:34:43 AM
I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.
 
2013-09-30 11:34:46 AM
Ok, now how about you going after them for the abomination called Amendment one? Can we do that too?
 
2013-09-30 11:34:53 AM
Hurrah, hurrah, we bring the Jubilee!
 
2013-09-30 11:37:15 AM
Government-issued ID cards are the new Jim Crow.  Got it!

Let's organize a sit-in at the DMV!
 
2013-09-30 11:37:23 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.


Perhaps, but given they bundled in the ID change with all the other BS that is intended to limit voting, that may clue you in on what they intend with the ID (and might make you wary that they'll make it more difficult to *get* one.)
 
2013-09-30 11:37:53 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: especially reducing the number of early voting days.


How many days aren't racist?  Just curious.
 
2013-09-30 11:38:11 AM

Garet Garrett: Government-issued ID cards are the new Jim Crow.  Got it!

Let's organize a sit-in at the DMV!


Sorry, we can't! You live in a heavily democratic area, and, *weirdly*, a lot of the DMV's their closed! How strange.
 
2013-09-30 11:38:46 AM

Felgraf: Garet Garrett: Government-issued ID cards are the new Jim Crow.  Got it!

Let's organize a sit-in at the DMV!

Sorry, we can't! You live in a heavily democratic area, and, *weirdly*, a lot of the DMV's their closed! How strange.


*There.

I am not awake yet.
 
2013-09-30 11:38:46 AM
What's worse than a republican trying to disenfranchise people with voter ID? Wimpy liberals agreeing to voter ID just because republicans have brought it up as an issue.
 
2013-09-30 11:38:51 AM

CapeFearCadaver: Ok, now how about you going after them for the abomination called Amendment one? Can we do that too?


Sadly, that wasn't just a Republican move. There are lots of minorities in NC who are solidly Democrat but also voted to make same-sex marriage unconstitutional.
 
2013-09-30 11:40:28 AM

Garet Garrett: Government-issued ID cards are the new Jim Crow.  Got it!

Let's organize a sit-in at the DMV!


why does there need to be a "new" anything? nobody is actually committing voter fraud so unless you are trying to disenfranchise people you wouldn't support these laws, oh wait!
 
2013-09-30 11:41:50 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.


The problem with requiring ID is that it's a terrible tool for stopping impersonation, because of all the false positives. That is, it'll keep a lot of legit voters from voting, while blocking almost no impersonation (because we have almost none now).

Especially if you require the address on the ID match - that's just a tool to keep college students and people who move a lot (both D demographics) from voting. The address you give DMV isn't secure or verified (other than that it's a real address).

How do we know impersonation's nonexistent? There's a record of what registrations get issued ballots. (In NC you can look someone up on the State Board of Elections website and see all elections they appear to have voted in). If someone impersonates a voter, either the real voter already voted (and they get busted), the real voter shows up later election day (and the real voter gets busted), (both of those are pretty rare), or the real voter is listed as having voted but didn't (motivated people, including Republicans and losing candidates, have tried to find instances of this and come up empty handed).

/TMYK
 
2013-09-30 11:41:51 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: CapeFearCadaver: Ok, now how about you going after them for the abomination called Amendment one? Can we do that too?

Sadly, that wasn't just a Republican move. There are lots of minorities in NC who are solidly Democrat but also voted to make same-sex marriage unconstitutional.


I never said either or in regards to whatever the f*ck political party.

Regardless, it's unconstitutional and the way it's worded f*cks with more than just keeping the gays from getting married.
 
2013-09-30 11:44:15 AM

Cyclometh: Look, GOP- we all know that voter fraud is so rare as to be effectively non-existent. We all know EXACTLY why you do this kind of shiat, and it has exactly fark-all to do with protecting anyone. It's about suppressing those uppity brown people, nothing more, nothing less. If you believed in protecting anyone or anything except your own pathetic and bankrupt ideology, we wouldn't be facing a government shutdown, default on the debt of the country, gerrymandering across the south and racist voter ID laws.

Just go on and say it- you want Jim Crow back. We already know.


To be honest, I think they wouldn't care if it happened that the targeted minorities tended to vote Republican. It's not entirely about race now, just, you know, mostly about race and all about power.
 
2013-09-30 11:45:17 AM

Headso: Garet Garrett: Government-issued ID cards are the new Jim Crow.  Got it!

Let's organize a sit-in at the DMV!

why does there need to be a "new" anything? nobody is actually committing voter fraud so unless you are trying to disenfranchise people you wouldn't support these laws, oh wait!


The fact that so few voter fraud cases have been documented is the evidence of just how widespread it is.
 
2013-09-30 11:47:20 AM

Garet Garrett: To The Escape Zeppelin!: especially reducing the number of early voting days.

How many days aren't racist?  Just curious.


What do you mean? I don't think it had anything to do with race really. More democrats use early voting than republicans, that's why early voting was limited. Same thing with same day registration. That the democrats happen to be minorities is a coincidence shown by the fact that they've tried to limit voting for college students as well.
 
2013-09-30 11:49:48 AM
Mandatory voting would solve a lot of these kinds of problems - no point in trying to manage turnout demographics to partisan advantage if it'll be 100%ish regardless.
 
2013-09-30 11:50:26 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Garet Garrett: To The Escape Zeppelin!: especially reducing the number of early voting days.

How many days aren't racist?  Just curious.

What do you mean? I don't think it had anything to do with race really. More democrats use early voting than republicans, that's why early voting was limited. Same thing with same day registration. That the democrats happen to be minorities is a coincidence shown by the fact that they've tried to limit voting for college students as well.


So, the action itself isn't racist, but it's heavily used by racists to accomplish their goals.

Gotcha.
 
2013-09-30 11:50:59 AM

Garet Garrett: I hope the government's lawyers remember to bring their Photo ID to the courthouse in order to argue the case, since they'll be turned away without it.


Really? South Carolina must be an unusual place that way, because in 16 years of practicing law in two states and several federal courts, I've never been required to show I.D. to enter a courthouse.
 
2013-09-30 11:52:04 AM
Good.
 
2013-09-30 11:53:34 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: That the democrats happen to be minorities is a coincidence shown by the fact that they've tried to limit voting for college students as well.


A surprising number of people think that college students shouldn't be able to vote at college because they "don't have a long-term stake in the community" or similar. My view is they ought to have the same requirements as anyone else (over 18, lived there 30 days). There are lots of non-college-students who don't live in the same town for 4 years, but AFAIK nobody thinks they shouldn't vote in local elections.
 
2013-09-30 12:01:43 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: To The Escape Zeppelin!: That the democrats happen to be minorities is a coincidence shown by the fact that they've tried to limit voting for college students as well.

A surprising number of people think that college students shouldn't be able to vote at college because they "don't have a long-term stake in the community" or similar. My view is they ought to have the same requirements as anyone else (over 18, lived there 30 days). There are lots of non-college-students who don't live in the same town for 4 years, but AFAIK nobody thinks they shouldn't vote in local elections.


Yeah, but college students live in sequestered ivory towers, and are smelly libs and furthermore
 
2013-09-30 12:05:43 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.


Showing ID may sound reasonable but the entire reason for it is to suppress the vote. How many cases of actual voter fraud have we heard of? Can anyone point to a single instance of voter fraud that would have been prevented by making that person show an ID. If so, could it have changed the results of an election? For the last question I am betting on not in a million years.

Now ask yourself how many thousands of people will be disenfranchised by ID requirements. Guess what groups it will hit the hardest. Hint: It's college kids and black people.
 
2013-09-30 12:06:18 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: A surprising number of people think that college students shouldn't be able to vote at college because they "don't have a long-term stake in the community" or similar. My view is they ought to have the same requirements as anyone else (over 18, lived there 30 days). There are lots of non-college-students who don't live in the same town for 4 years, but AFAIK nobody thinks they shouldn't vote in local elections.


So the solution is to clearly shut down the on-campus polling place, move the polling to a site away from the campus that now has to handle 9,500 voters on election day, all with a parking lot designed to hold 30 cars.
 
2013-09-30 12:07:49 PM

CapeFearCadaver: Ok, now how about you going after them for the abomination called Amendment one? Can we do that too?


The group working with the ACLU on the gay marriage issue has targeted North Carolina for 2014. They're going after states with better percentages (and laws not shoehorned into the state constitution) this year, like Ohio.
 
2013-09-30 12:08:42 PM
Show me the North Carolina statute preventing black people from getting a driver's license or a state-issued ID.

It does not exist.

Eric Holder is a race-baiter and he is publically calling for institutionally sanctioned vote-rigging.

No ID? Vote as many times as you want in as many places as you want.

Poll worker gets 5 years for voter fraud

imageshack.com
 
2013-09-30 12:10:52 PM

WhoopAssWayne: Show me the North Carolina statute preventing black people from getting a driver's license or a state-issued ID.

It does not exist.

Eric Holder is a race-baiter and he is publically calling for institutionally sanctioned vote-rigging.

No ID? Vote as many times as you want in as many places as you want.

Poll worker gets 5 years for voter fraud

[imageshack.com image 316x235]


You'd feel better if you would just come out and admit that you hate black people.
 
2013-09-30 12:13:10 PM
Good thing the poll worker has to check her own ID to make sure she can't fraudulently vote.
 
2013-09-30 12:13:39 PM

WhoopAssWayne: Show me the North Carolina statute preventing black people from getting a driver's license or a state-issued ID.

It does not exist.

Eric Holder is a race-baiter and he is publically calling for institutionally sanctioned vote-rigging.

No ID? Vote as many times as you want in as many places as you want.

Poll worker gets 5 years for voter fraud

[imageshack.com image 316x235]


anecdote =/= evidence

All investigations have concluded that there is no wide-spread in-person voter fraud.  NO ONE has ever claimed that voter fraud  never occurs, only that it is very rare, and that it is wrong to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands in an effort to stop a handful of criminals.

Plus, she was caught and punished, so what's the problem?
 
2013-09-30 12:15:41 PM
It's about slavery, innit?
 
2013-09-30 12:23:26 PM

WhoopAssWayne: No ID? Vote as many times as you want in as many places as you want.


*If* you impersonate different registered voters (who are registered in those places), those voters haven't shown up and voted already, and if those voters don't vote, nobody notices after the fact that the voter appeared to vote and didn't. (E.g. if the voter's dead, once boards of election find out they're dead, they notice if someone voted in that name after dying).

Other than that, total cake walk, I guess.
 
2013-09-30 12:23:31 PM
Why even bother voting ?  Just let the progressive leaders make the right decisions and excise social justice with some little targeted outcome.

 What could go wrong ?

 One man One vote One Time.

Leave the rest up to us !

writingcompany.blogs.com
 
2013-09-30 12:25:04 PM

Infernalist: WhoopAssWayne: Show me the North Carolina statute preventing black people from getting a driver's license or a state-issued ID.

It does not exist.

Eric Holder is a race-baiter and he is publically calling for institutionally sanctioned vote-rigging.

No ID? Vote as many times as you want in as many places as you want.

Poll worker gets 5 years for voter fraud

[imageshack.com image 316x235]

You'd feel better if you would just come out and admit that you hate black people.


(favorite: POS that will play politics with childrens corpses)

Nuff said.
 
2013-09-30 12:25:40 PM

sammyk: Showing ID may sound reasonable but the entire reason for it is to suppress the vote. How many cases of actual voter fraud have we heard of? Can anyone point to a single instance of voter fraud that would have been prevented by making that person show an ID. If so, could it have changed the results of an election? For the last question I am betting on not in a million years.


In-person voter fraud, the only kind of fraud that can be caught by a Voter-ID system is non-zero, but less frequent than death by lightning strike.

Brennan Center for Justice writes: "There are a handful of known cases in which admissions, poll book entries, absentee ballots, provisional ballot stubs, or other documentation indicate that one individual has actually voted twice. These cases are extremely rare - not because such documentation is hard to come by (many states require that such documents be retained), but because actual double voting is itself extremely rare. Moreover, the scarcity is expected, given the severity of the penalty (criminal prosecution), and the meager nature of the payoff (one incremental vote)." Source (PDF)

Now ask yourself how many thousands of people will be disenfranchised by ID requirements. Guess what groups it will hit the hardest. Hint: It's college kids and black people.

This is very true. The very young, the very old, poor, and minorities are impacted at a disproportionate rate. Source (PDF)
 
2013-09-30 12:27:55 PM
The voter fraud I wonder about are people registering as multiple individuals then voting once as each individual. It's the registration process that bothers me. I can go to any Walmart parking lot and buy a complete new ID.
 
2013-09-30 12:28:12 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: To The Escape Zeppelin!: I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.

The problem with requiring ID is that it's a terrible tool for stopping impersonation, because of all the false positives. That is, it'll keep a lot of legit voters from voting, while blocking almost no impersonation (because we have almost none now).

Especially if you require the address on the ID match - that's just a tool to keep college students and people who move a lot (both D demographics) from voting. The address you give DMV isn't secure or verified (other than that it's a real address).

How do we know impersonation's nonexistent? There's a record of what registrations get issued ballots. (In NC you can look someone up on the State Board of Elections website and see all elections they appear to have voted in). If someone impersonates a voter, either the real voter already voted (and they get busted), the real voter shows up later election day (and the real voter gets busted), (both of those are pretty rare), or the real voter is listed as having voted but didn't (motivated people, including Republicans and losing candidates, have tried to find instances of this and come up empty handed).

/TMYK


You can't even be sure that it is a real address.

My wife just got her driver's license renewed.  Proof of address?  A credit card bill.  This particular bill had been mailed to us and printed out by the credit card company.  On a laser printer.  Nothing stopped me from doing some creative editing, or even just whipping up a credit card bill with an address whole cloth on my own laser printer.  Could have been a utility bill, or anything for that matter.  Zero cross checking.  Same thing with Birth Certificates.  I can churn out as many "Princeton born" people as I wish, as I've got a seal imprint that can be reasonably recreated with a cheap 3D printer, or perfectly reproduced with a midrange CNC machine.  The only thing I can't generate is a SS# -> name pairing.  That has to be stolen.  Our ID system, and our verification protocols are a joke in this country.

BTW, I agree with everything else you said, just pointing out that the address doesn't have to be real either, as those issuing the ID with an address doesn't know anything about it, other than some sheet of paper with that address was presented.
 
2013-09-30 12:28:28 PM

Dr Dreidel: Gaseous Anomaly: To The Escape Zeppelin!: That the democrats happen to be minorities is a coincidence shown by the fact that they've tried to limit voting for college students as well.

A surprising number of people think that college students shouldn't be able to vote at college because they "don't have a long-term stake in the community" or similar. My view is they ought to have the same requirements as anyone else (over 18, lived there 30 days). There are lots of non-college-students who don't live in the same town for 4 years, but AFAIK nobody thinks they shouldn't vote in local elections.

Yeah, but college students live in sequestered ivory towers, and are smelly libs and furthermore


This, obviously. The trend is that education promotes liberalism, and therefore restricting liberals from voting, through any means whatsoever, is seen as a good idea by conservatives.
 
2013-09-30 12:28:44 PM

Koaltrain: Why even bother voting ?  Just let the progressive leaders make the right decisions and excise social justice with some little targeted outcome.

 What could go wrong ?

 One man One vote One Time.

Leave the rest up to us !

[writingcompany.blogs.com image 600x350]


Seeing how retarded about 20% of the country is, this isn't as bad of an idea as you try to make it sound like.
 
2013-09-30 12:33:30 PM
The Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
 
2013-09-30 12:38:03 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: The voter fraud I wonder about are people registering as multiple individuals then voting once as each individual. It's the registration process that bothers me. I can go to any Walmart parking lot and buy a complete new ID.


Your name has to match up with the driver's license number, or Social Security number, or birthdate you give at registration, since 2004ish, by Federal law (don't know how they verify the last, or what the requirements were in NC before then). But if those don't match up, you can show ID the first time you vote (and the requirements are rather lax) and the registration is considered good.
 
2013-09-30 12:39:10 PM

MadHatter500: Gaseous Anomaly: To The Escape Zeppelin!: I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. I do however have a serious problem with the rest of the voting changes that they've made here in NC, especially reducing the number of early voting days. I feel that an ID is a reasonable request especially in this day and age but the rest is total bs intended to limit voting.

The problem with requiring ID is that it's a terrible tool for stopping impersonation, because of all the false positives. That is, it'll keep a lot of legit voters from voting, while blocking almost no impersonation (because we have almost none now).

Especially if you require the address on the ID match - that's just a tool to keep college students and people who move a lot (both D demographics) from voting. The address you give DMV isn't secure or verified (other than that it's a real address).

How do we know impersonation's nonexistent? There's a record of what registrations get issued ballots. (In NC you can look someone up on the State Board of Elections website and see all elections they appear to have voted in). If someone impersonates a voter, either the real voter already voted (and they get busted), the real voter shows up later election day (and the real voter gets busted), (both of those are pretty rare), or the real voter is listed as having voted but didn't (motivated people, including Republicans and losing candidates, have tried to find instances of this and come up empty handed).

/TMYK

You can't even be sure that it is a real address.

My wife just got her driver's license renewed.  Proof of address?  A credit card bill.  This particular bill had been mailed to us and printed out by the credit card company.  On a laser printer.  Nothing stopped me from doing some creative editing, or even just whipping up a credit card bill with an address whole cloth on my own laser printer.  Could have been a utility bill, or anything for that matter.  Zero cross checking.  Same thing with Birth Cert ...


In New York, they mail you the photo ID at the supplied address; it's not foolproof, but you have to least be able to get mail at the address you're listing, which probably prevents most "I'll just make up a random address" type fraud.
 
2013-09-30 12:40:21 PM

Brick-House: The Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Congress's power to ensure the ability to vote without discrimination or undue burden is pretty well understood to flow from the 14th and 15th Amendments, both of which even explicitly include provisions empowering Congress to enforce these rights a necessary.
 
2013-09-30 12:44:05 PM

MadHatter500: BTW, I agree with everything else you said, just pointing out that the address doesn't have to be real either, as those issuing the ID with an address doesn't know anything about it, other than some sheet of paper with that address was presented.


Right. They can run it by the Post Office (later) to verify it's A real address, but there's no way to verify it's YOUR address, short of having someone follow you home and watch you sleep or something.

At the polls sometimes we run into technicalities of where's someone's residence. To vote in a district you have to have lived there for 30 days before the election. But what constitutes the exact day you moved? When you closed / signed a lease? When you started sleeping there? First poop in the new bathroom? It's somewhat ill-defined, and we don't have any good guidance for voters (if they care).
 
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