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(Talking Points Memo)   Will the Senate override the house and pass the health care reform bill as written? Will the Tea Party politicians go through with the threatened shutdown? We find out today. It's your official Government Shutdown Threat thread   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 95
    More: PSA, Senate, Reform Act, U.S. government, healthcare reform, veto override, shut downs, OK'd, rectitude  
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1053 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Sep 2013 at 8:07 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-09-30 08:36:06 AM  
9 votes:
The irony here is that this is not a battle between the House and the Senate, as Subby seems to think, nor even between Republican and Democratic parties, as the media -- terrified of being accused of not being even-handed -- will say.

This is a battle between the majority of the Republican party in Congress and an extremist faction of the Republican party. The extremists want do to something never seen before in our democracy: use the threat of economic chaos to achieve a political goal that they couldn't achieve through the Presidential election, nor even muster enough support for in a thoroughly gerrymandered and unrepresentative Congress. What the Tea Party is demanding here is not "negotiation" nor "compromise": it is "give us all our demands or we will shoot the hostage".

The sad part is that there is a very simple and straightforward resolution to this whole business. It requires Boehner and the mainstream House GOP Caucus to stand up and say "you in the Tea Party are damaging our party and our cause. By being intransigent and extreme, we are achieving none of our goals, rather than at least some of them. We have tried in good faith to accommodate you but there is no give on your part, only take." Then Boehner together with the Democrats in the House pass a clean CR, and the Tea Party is cut adrift.

Of course, that's never going to happen, and a big part of the reason is that so many in the GOP House are terrified of being primaried; and the reason they are at risk for that is, of course, the unlimited outside funding unleashed by Citizens United. Thanks to that turd dropped into the electoral punchbowl by the Supreme Court, the rich are now able to use the extremist rump of an unpopular minority party to hold the entire democratic process hostage to their demands. What a great country.
2013-09-30 11:12:24 AM  
5 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: Earguy: So, more people get insurance of some sort. There's a fund to pay for the uninsured. And Republicans are opposing this, why? Are they really so short sighted and uncaring for America that they want to hurt corporations and taxpayers? Do they really want to sabotage the Democrats that badly?

The health insurance companies have been paying off the GOP for decades to rig the game in their favor.  That's why the health care system in America sucks so badly.  Now they're facing the end game where people are about to wake up and realize they've been eating dog shiat all these years, and the GOP is not looking forward to that moment of reckoning.


if the GOP were really serious about implementing "Free Market Solutions" to fixing the healthcare problems of this country, the very first order of business would be to recall The McCarran-Ferguson Act which gives insurance companies an anti-trust exemption.   How in the world can you have a "free market" when competitors are allowed to collude and price fix against consumers?     When Democrats brought up repealing the McCarran-Ferguson Act during the healthcare debate in 2009, the "free market" GOPers screamed bloody murder.
2013-09-30 08:30:08 AM  
5 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


No. The ACA was passed, sued over, and ruled constitutional.

It isn't up for debate anymore. You can try repeal it after it's taken full effect. Go ahead. If it's so horrible then people will want it gone after it's in place.

It has no place in budget talks. No place in debt ceiling talks. Anyone trying to put it in is trying to hold the government hostage in order to deny Americans health care access and should be run out of Washington.
2013-09-30 08:42:02 AM  
3 votes:

Phineas: Anything that creates Democrat butthurt is OK with me.


^^^^^^^^ Hey, look everybody, it's part of the problem!!!!  ^^^^^^^^^
2013-09-30 08:29:31 AM  
3 votes:

QueenMamaBee: Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?

That doesn't pay the bills that are due during the shutdown... you do know that, right?


Actually, if you aren't essential, as about 900,000 people are categorized, you don't get back pay unless it is approved by congress. So, through no fault of their own, 900,000 gov't employees don't get paid because 20 potatoes want to privatize medicare and give another handout to their petrol buddies.

I am someone who should be the bread and butter for the republican party. I am very cautious when it comes to change and want to make sure any change to the status quo is well reasoned and debated to ensure its the right course; basically I am a conservate. However, I will never ever vote for any person with an (R) next to their name. They blew it. Anyone who votes for Republicans is not a conservative, at this point the republican party is filled with Fundys waiting for the apocalypse, the uber rich, and the unimformed.
MFK
2013-09-30 08:20:33 AM  
3 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


You really think the Tea Party is negotiating?

I suppose in a way it is... in the same way that if you lent your friend $50 and asked him to pay you back and he said, "well sure I'll pay you back, but only if you let me fark your wife first."

But for most people, making unreasonable demands that have zero chance of being met isn't considered "negotiating"
2013-09-30 08:17:04 AM  
3 votes:

Brick-House: Katolu: Brick-House: Turfshoe: Is this the Breaking Bad thread?

Obamscare as bad as method, so yeah

What method would that be?

By getting people addicted to government handouts instead of being self reliant.


Like farm and oil subsidies?
2013-09-30 08:16:13 AM  
3 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


Defunding/postponing the ACA is a higher priority to them, otherwise, the house would have passed a clean funding bill like the Senate did. It is their fault.
2013-09-30 08:14:05 AM  
3 votes:
In just to say fark Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul.

/regardless of the outcome, I just really hate them
2013-09-30 12:13:32 PM  
2 votes:
Dear Republicans:
michaelgraham.com

i1.ytimg.com
GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY. TAKE BACK THE SENATE AND WHITE HOUSE AND THEN REPEAL THE ACA. OR PROPOSE AN ALTERNATIVE WHICH IS NOT THE EXACT SAME BILL (BUT SUBMITTED BY YOU). UNTIL THEN STFU AND GBTW.

/is the ACA perfect? No. Single-payer would have been better. But the ACA is better than nothing.
//end rant
2013-09-30 11:37:04 AM  
2 votes:

SlothB77: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Tman144: SlothB77: Is this the thread where we say republicans are terrorists for trying to control spending and prevent our country from bankrupting itself?

Right, republicans want to control spending. That's why they blew up the budget surplus the first chance they got.

Republicans only ever want to control spending when they're not the ones doing the spending.  They ran buck wild under George Bush when they had complete control.

We went to war.  That is a little different than spending money on pork.  Also, since we cut and ran from Iraq it is being overrun by al qaeda again, who is re-strengthening.  We saved money by getting out of Iraq ... until we get terrorized by Al Qaeda of Iraq.


I was told that the Mission was Accomplished way back in 2003.
2013-09-30 11:31:24 AM  
2 votes:
SlothB: We went to war.  That is a little different than spending money on pork.

 I guess I can always consider no-bid government contracts for Halliburton "ham" - still not kosher, tho.
2013-09-30 10:54:13 AM  
2 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


Uh, yeah they are.

The GOP:
Tried to get Obamacare repealed.  They failed.
Tried to get Obamacare declared unconstitutional.  They failed.
Tried to get Obamacare funding cut.  Over 40 times.  They failed.
Tried to run a presidential candidate on the idea of getting Obamacare repealed.  They failed.
Tried to hold the country hostage with "Get rid of Obamacare or we'll shut down the government!".  They are currently failing.

It isn't the Democrats that are to blame for this.  They're just as tired of the tea party's shiat as the rest of us, and they've stopped even pretending to give a shiat about what these extremists want.
2013-09-30 10:42:50 AM  
2 votes:
i42.tinypic.com
2013-09-30 09:21:24 AM  
2 votes:
badhatharry, and those that think like him are what's wrong with the United States.

Stupid, angry, misinformed, loud...
2013-09-30 09:15:25 AM  
2 votes:
It's not negotiation unless both sides want opposite things. The Democrats want to avoid hurting the economy, so they want to raise the debt ceiling. If the Republicans think that's negotiable, then they want to harm the American economy. If that's what they want, who wants to give them anything?
2013-09-30 09:08:06 AM  
2 votes:

OlderGuy: if you want to keep America, we better clean house


Were you planning on starting with the Mexicans or did you want to stick with tradition and start with the Jews and homosexuals?
2013-09-30 09:07:47 AM  
2 votes:

OlderGuy: if you think 2010 was a wakeup, wait for 2014 and 2016


Why did you skip over 2012?
2013-09-30 08:33:24 AM  
2 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!



Negotiating is generally done in reasonable volume levels, NOT SCREAMIING!

/Tea party "wants to negotiate" like my kid "wants" to share.
2013-09-30 08:23:54 AM  
2 votes:
Good morning, everyone.  Reporting for duty.

*clears throat*
2013-09-30 08:20:55 AM  
2 votes:

Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?


That doesn't pay the bills that are due during the shutdown... you do know that, right?
2013-09-30 08:20:31 AM  
2 votes:

Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?


And that pays my bills now....how?
2013-09-30 08:19:19 AM  
2 votes:
Subby: Will the Senate override the house and pass the health care reform bill as written?

Meanwhile, on Earth Prime, the Affordable Health Care act was passed years ago, even surviving a challenge to the Supreme Court. On our Earth, the Senate only has to decide whether to cave in to blackmail by an extremist minority of the Republican Congress who are threatening to shoot the hostage, or to restore the bill raising the debt ceiling to be what it has always been in the past.

We now return you to The Twilight Zone, where health care reform is still being debated in Congress.
2013-09-30 08:15:45 AM  
2 votes:
/yawn

gimme single payer or gtfo, this is just bs
2013-09-30 06:17:25 PM  
1 votes:
At this point, I can sum up the GOP thusly:

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
2013-09-30 05:37:34 PM  
1 votes:

DeaH: They would love Obama to do this. They'd cry abuse of executive power, and they would finally get a reason to impeach.


They are going to do all of this anyway.  When the opposition throws every single thing they have at you, all of the time, they effectively silence themselves.  There's no reason to pay any attention to what they say, think, or do, because the outcome is the exact same no matter how you act.  So just act any way you want.

Can you honestly come up with something the GOP is holding back on, that they would then engage if Obama used the coin loophole?
2013-09-30 05:26:11 PM  
1 votes:

ClavellBCMI: And Obama just re-stated everything the reasonable Farkers have been saying about this situation during his news conference, and basically told Boehner to tell the Tehadists to STFU, GTFO, and do the right thing for the country, not the party. Which, of course, will be ignored because party before country as far as the GOP is concerned.


And the Liberal Media will cover both sides of the argument as if they're equally reasonable and responsible in the context of American politics.

:(
2013-09-30 05:16:57 PM  
1 votes:
And Obama just re-stated everything the reasonable Farkers have been saying about this situation during his news conference, and basically told Boehner to tell the Tehadists to STFU, GTFO, and do the right thing for the country, not the party. Which, of course, will be ignored because party before country as far as the GOP is concerned.
2013-09-30 05:00:29 PM  
1 votes:
As always, Senator Sanders kicked total arse on the Senate floor. "This is not about the health care act, this is about legislating via blackmail and hostage taking." A paraphrase, "If we yield to these tactics now, they will not stop in the future. The far right has been clear for decades about hating Social Security and Medicare. If they can succeed in subverting the legislative process with blackmail and hostage taking, then the door is wide open for them to gut the social safety via those same means. This madness has to be stopped now, or else we can look forward to this same approach year after year after year."

I may not always listen to what politicians have to say, but when I do, I listen to Bernie Sanders.
2013-09-30 04:45:04 PM  
1 votes:
I love Bernie Sanders.
2013-09-30 04:28:19 PM  
1 votes:
Ted Cruz is currently stumping derp on the Senate floor.

"What happens to millions of young college graduates who can't get health care because they can't get employment?"

Answer to the dumbfark: If they are under 26 they will be covered under their parents' plan.

Thanks to Obamacare.

This is not a man with any interest in honest discussion. His speech (going on right now) is the most dishonest argument I've heard. And that comes after having listened to Lindsay Graham.
2013-09-30 03:47:41 PM  
1 votes:

Peki: There they went. Rs are wanting a one-year delay of the individual mandate.


and I want to get more blow jobs in my life.  I'm doubtful either will happen.
2013-09-30 02:21:24 PM  
1 votes:

Peki: Senate is about to kill the bill, and House R plan is to attach repeal of the individual mandate to the CR.

Here we go!


The Senate should keep that and attach another rider that puts all uninsured people on Medicare. Single Payer here we come!
2013-09-30 02:15:37 PM  
1 votes:

hasty ambush: DeaH: cman: DeaH: It's not negotiation unless both sides want opposite things. The Democrats want to avoid hurting the economy, so they want to raise the debt ceiling. If the Republicans think that's negotiable, then they want to harm the American economy. If that's what they want, who wants to give them anything?

They don't believe it will hurt the economy

It certainly hurt the economy the last time they didn't automatically raise the debt ceiling. The Republicans, as a whole, just cannot be that stupid, but, if they really are, then the Democrats only response can be a demand for the mass resignation of all Republicans.


Raise the debt ceiling but get some fiscal responsibility behind it.  Democrats just want government with a blank check and they are willing to wreck thing to get it.  The Democrats are the ones who should resign


Last shutdown was for 28 days and according to BBC radio this morning it was a pinprick on the overall  economy.


The last time the Republicans played games with the debt ceiling, it lowered America's credit rating. That means our money now costs all of us more. The fact that the Republicans keep trying to hold the debt ceiling hostage shows that we need to stop them in their tracks once and for all. They do not have America's best interest at heart. They are betting against America, and they just keep doing it. If they want a more responsible budget, then they should produce one. (And this is a good place to point out that the budgets they do produce depend on savings from Obamacare, so, at least on some level, they know Obamacare is good for America, too.) The debt ceiling is not the place they should be doing this.

Al Qaeda attacked America, choosing the World Trade Towers in an effort to cripple the American economy. They got three buildings and the lives of nearly 3000 Americans, but they did not get our economy. Right now, Al Qaeda is looking at the Republican Party and saying, "Oh, so THAT'S how you bring down American!" They wish they were the Republican Party. The Republican Party has consistently shown it cares nothing for the best interests of American. In the last dozen years, it has done more to hurt America and its economy than any stated enemy, foreign or domestic. They need to go away, so they can be replaced with a party that is something besides the enemy within.
2013-09-30 02:07:05 PM  
1 votes:
Remember me????

www.killthehydra.com
2013-09-30 01:43:53 PM  
1 votes:
Kuroshin:

/color me shocked

Done.

i586.photobucket.com
2013-09-30 12:59:29 PM  
1 votes:

hasty ambush: Voiceofreason01:

Also things like Passport services, custodial staff for Gov't buildings, most of the national weather service staff and a lot of other things that you are going to miss are not "essential"

I am willing to bet all those things, just with like Social Security, can be done with fewer people that currently assigned.  It is interesting how technology has allowed the private sector to reduce  the number of people performing administrative functions  bookkeepers, secretarial /typing pools, file clerks  etc.  but not so for government-why is that?    And I am not particularly upset that government employees might have to take out their own trash.

More Americans work for the government [22.5 million]  than work in construction, farming, fishing, forestry, manufacturing, mining and utilities combined. . Nearly half of the $2.2 trillion cost of state and local governments [FY2010] is the $1 trillion-a-year tab for pay and benefits of state and local employees. Imagine what it is on the Federal level.

Lets us look at a few things

The Dept. of Agriculture has besides a Secretary has a Deputy Secretary and 7 Under Secretaries (all of whom have personal staffs) along with  20 other agencies/services and "corporations".. Many of which overlap functions  done by  Depts of State, Commerce, Interior, HUD and HHS.

The Department of Defense is even worse with 36 Assistant, Deputy Secretaries, and Directors.  This is not even counting what eh Depts of the Army , Navy and Air Force have.

Want to look at Homeland Security and  HHS?

Go ahead and argue that we don't have a lot of excess overhead in government.


Fine, I will.

While you do cite an impressive number of Directors, Assistant Directors and so on, do you have any idea how many people are managed by those cabinet level posts? For the Defense department (citation):
* 718,000 civilians
* 1.418,542 active duty military
* 1,100,000+ reserve

That's a lot of people, and I'm not counting much more than a few dozen top level managers in various cabinet posts. Compare that to an insurance company or a bank, and talk to me again about an organization that's top heavy.
2013-09-30 12:55:15 PM  
1 votes:

wood0366: Two things:

Remember the credit rating for the UNITED STATES getting slashed the last time they pulled this shiat? To cause the credit rating of a first world country that seems to be the fiscal backbone of the planet slashed seems to be a rather bad idea.

Also, I'm still in the dark as to why 'tax and spend' seems to be a bad idea. I haven't heard any compelling reason why this /isn't/ the case.


Canada had its credit rating dropped in the 1980's.  You know how we recovered it?  By raising taxes.
2013-09-30 12:54:40 PM  
1 votes:

Ned Stark: born_yesterday: Soup4Bonnie: Rumours are that the House will let a continuing resolution pass at the last minute, but load up the fight over the debt ceiling with everything they've ever wanted for Christmas in the hopes that they can get Obama to negotiate before the Treasury defaults on 10/17.

That was my thinking.  There's nothing to be gained by a shutdown, especially when they can avoid it and fight again in two weeks.

Allowing the shutdown would give a bit more credibility to their threats over the debt ceiling. Like shooting the first hostage to show the FBI you're serious.


Except when you shoot your hostage - and you only have one - what's your leverage?

If they shutdown the government now - how will they threaten us during the debt ceiling debate?
2013-09-30 12:48:50 PM  
1 votes:
Have the Dems considered allowing the GOP to defund Obama care but in exchange, lower the medicare eligibility age to zero years old?
2013-09-30 12:46:19 PM  
1 votes:
Logic in Republican land.

s5.postimg.org
2013-09-30 12:32:42 PM  
1 votes:
Why are troll alts permitted to continue posting their tripe in political threads?

There is literally no discourse being offered in Fark anymore because the mods won't nut up and IP ban some of these asshats who keep changing their nicks and posting the same tired talking points.
2013-09-30 12:03:43 PM  
1 votes:

DeaH: cman: DeaH: It's not negotiation unless both sides want opposite things. The Democrats want to avoid hurting the economy, so they want to raise the debt ceiling. If the Republicans think that's negotiable, then they want to harm the American economy. If that's what they want, who wants to give them anything?

They don't believe it will hurt the economy

It certainly hurt the economy the last time they didn't automatically raise the debt ceiling. The Republicans, as a whole, just cannot be that stupid, but, if they really are, then the Democrats only response can be a demand for the mass resignation of all Republicans.



Raise the debt ceiling but get some fiscal responsibility behind it.  Democrats just want government with a blank check and they are willing to wreck thing to get it.  The Democrats are the ones who should resign


Last shutdown was for 28 days and according to BBC radio this morning it was a pinprick on the overall  economy.
2013-09-30 11:54:36 AM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: If you don't have the money in the first place, don't eat the food.


Do you mean "order" the food or have you just never eaten somewhere that isn't a buffet?
2013-09-30 11:48:10 AM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: Tman144: SlothB77: Is this the thread where we say republicans are terrorists for trying to control spending and prevent our country from bankrupting itself?

Right, republicans want to control spending. That's why they blew up the budget surplus the first chance they got.

There was no surplus.  That is a myth.  It was simply Clintonian accounting smoke and mirrors.


Um...no.
2013-09-30 11:33:05 AM  
1 votes:

HindiDiscoMonster: double post punchbuggy!
you owe me a coke.


I can't give you a coke over the internet.  Have some TF.
2013-09-30 11:32:42 AM  
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: FlashHarry: I_C_Weener: What incentive is there to stop spending if the government will just increase its limit everytime?  None.

btw, it's clear that you and a great number of your ilk do not understand what the debt ceiling really is, so here's a primer:

The United States debt ceiling or debt limit is a legislative restriction on the amount of national debt that can be issued by the Treasury. Because expenditures are authorized by separate legislation, the debt ceiling does not actually restrict deficits. In effect, it can only restrain the Treasury from paying for expenditures that have already been incurred.(emphasis mine)

we can certainly discuss spending priorities. but not paying our bills is not an option.

Our spending never goes down.  The only tool available to stop it at this point is playing chicken.


Well, first and foremost, we're on our way towards a deficit reduction.

But you also have to consider that this is the obvious result of a representative form of government. As the population grows, so must representation and supporting staff.

But also consider this: a large government isn't inherently bad. A small government isn't inherently good. Instead of focusing on size - we should be focusing on efficacy.
2013-09-30 11:25:40 AM  
1 votes:
To think all this could have been avoided with sane taxation policy, an educated electorate and honest government.

Ok, yeah, I realize how much of a pipe dream that was after typing it out.
2013-09-30 11:17:41 AM  
1 votes:
Republicans are just like wife-beaters. "She should not have made me so mad. If she had done what I wanted I would not have had to hit her. It's all her fault, why can't she do what I want?" See, it is all the Democrat's fault, they are forcing the shutdown, the Republicans are being Forced to destroy the country because they didn't get what they wanted.
2013-09-30 11:17:18 AM  
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: What incentive is there to stop spending if the government will just increase its limit everytime?  None.


btw, it's clear that you and a great number of your ilk do not understand what the debt ceiling really is, so here's a primer:

The United States debt ceiling or debt limit is a legislative restriction on the amount of national debt that can be issued by the Treasury. Because expenditures are authorized by separate legislation, the debt ceiling does not actually restrict deficits. In effect, it can only restrain the Treasury from paying for expenditures that have already been incurred.(emphasis mine)

we can certainly discuss spending priorities. but not paying our bills is not an option.
2013-09-30 11:15:00 AM  
1 votes:

sprawl15: James!: SlothB77: Is this the thread where we say republicans are terrorists for trying to control spending and prevent our country from bankrupting itself?

This is the equivalent of saying "We need to save money, stop paying our bills".

skip meals to save money for food


No, it's not skipping a meal to save money on food.  It's eating the meal, then skipping out on the check.

The TeaTards want to dine-and-dash.
2013-09-30 11:07:32 AM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: Is this the thread where we say republicans are terrorists for trying to control spending and prevent our country from bankrupting itself?


no, it's the one where you threadshiat and leave, like you always do.

but just in case you're interested:

• the GOP is threatening to let america default on its debt obligations if its political demands aren't met.
• this will cause massive harm to the US and global economies.
• by definition, this is terrorism.

so, yes, i suppose you're right.
2013-09-30 11:05:36 AM  
1 votes:

Earguy: So, more people get insurance of some sort. There's a fund to pay for the uninsured. And Republicans are opposing this, why? Are they really so short sighted and uncaring for America that they want to hurt corporations and taxpayers? Do they really want to sabotage the Democrats that badly?


The health insurance companies have been paying off the GOP for decades to rig the game in their favor.  That's why the health care system in America sucks so badly.  Now they're facing the end game where people are about to wake up and realize they've been eating dog shiat all these years, and the GOP is not looking forward to that moment of reckoning.
2013-09-30 11:01:25 AM  
1 votes:

JusticeandIndependence: Earguy: What leaves me scratching my head is the fact that uninsured people are a big problem in the USA.  They use hospital emergency rooms as their primary care, the most expensive way to do it.  If they need major medical care, they either put the burden on hospitals (private corporations, yay), and ultimately the hard-working, tax-paying Americans.

So let's change the operations procedures at the emergency room.  Have some primary care options at the emergency room so that people can be guided to another area to have some help.  That way the hospital can benefit as well as the patient.


That would make it a "hospital", not an emergency room. And that is what they are not allowed to use because they do not have health insurance.
2013-09-30 11:00:15 AM  
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I_C_Weener: spartacus_prime: Whoever wins, we lose.

If we changed the procedure in Congress to something like this, we all win.

a.  To propose a bill, you must either in man to man combat or by picking a champion, defeat the Majority Leader or Speaker.

b.  To filibuster, you must be able to hold the floor against a pack of rabid wolves let loose in the chamber.

c.  To propose an amendment which increases spending for the benefit of your constituents, you have to prove the existence of Big Foot with hair samples, and photographic evidence.

BUST A DEAL, FACE THE WHEEL!!!

/Also, d. Everytime you run for re-election, you lose a digit. Or appendage, once the digits are gone.

I like these ideas.  Keep them coming.


Every time someone has the floor to speak they are suspended with cables over a shark tank. Cables are automatically controlled by a computer running an American idol style voting scheme. Everyone watching at home can text 'up' or 'down' to raise or lower them an inch.

That'll get people watching c-span.
2013-09-30 10:59:51 AM  
1 votes:

OlderGuy: Brick-House: phrawgh: I certainly hope it is not too early to blame Obama!

How can we blame BOB, all he's done is play golf.

He is not a leader, he doesn't like America, he is out to destroy America, and he is doing it..  Our only hope now is that true Americans like Ted Cruz and the Conservative Party are joined by fellow Americans who are fed up with the antics of the Old Guard ( both parties) and throw them out.  Dump Obamacare and Obama, freeze the debt limit, and stop the reckless spending.  The Sleeping Giant better get off it's ass and get it's priorities in order, and do what needs to be done... the time is NOW !  Use it or lose it..   If obamacare is enacted, we,re done.  the government will be sleeping in our beds at night, looting our bank accounts, fully dictating how we live.. We are swirling the drain, people... get off your ass and put in the plug !


Yeah, Obama's destroying America!!!  Well, except for:

The deficit is falling at a faster rate than it has in the last 60 years.

And we currently have a budget surplus.

Considering the cliff this country was headed for when the guy first come into office, that's not too bad.  Apologies if this has already been mentioned.  I got to the thread late.
2013-09-30 10:59:44 AM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: Is this the thread where we say republicans are terrorists for trying to control spending and prevent our country from bankrupting itself?


Right, republicans want to control spending. That's why they blew up the budget surplus the first chance they got.
2013-09-30 10:37:39 AM  
1 votes:

OlderGuy: And more food for thought...  ACA aka Obamacare authorizes the government to  monitor your bank accounts 'in near real time' and allows them to 'deduct' any fees and/ or penalties.. you can't stop it..  also, not connected with ACA, a push has been on for a while to enact a 1% transaction tax on your bank accounts.. all transactions..   did a GIS.. it,s there....  hows that hope and change working for you?


You left off the FWD:FWD:FWD:FWD
2013-09-30 10:32:30 AM  
1 votes:
I'm not over exaggerating when I say I can smell the booze wafting from members as they walk off the floor.
- Ginger Gibson (@GingerGibson) September 29, 2013

For all those asking for names, sorry, I didn't get close enough to figure out the source of the smell.
- Ginger Gibson (@GingerGibson) September 29, 2013

I def saw more than 1 member of congress putting a few back on Penn earlier. Ran into 2 in the liquor store.
- KateNocera (@KateNocera) September 29, 2013
2013-09-30 10:18:38 AM  
1 votes:
Not even 10AM central, and this is already getting depressing.  Let's liven things up a bit:

images.wikia.com


/even if you're not a pony fan
//it's still better than a government shutdown
2013-09-30 10:11:35 AM  
1 votes:

Uranus Is Huge!: cman: Uranus Is Huge!: cman: Uranus Is Huge!: Given how amazingly clairvoyant the Fark Derp Spreaders have been to date, I'm somewhat comforted by their doom & gloom predictions.

Using such verbose terms disregards the common educated person in their comprehension and enshrines oneself to neural entries of grand pomposity.

Sorry. I forgot about your two-syllable limit. Was there a word you needed help with?

I can use words of Germanic origin to explain it better:

Folks will think you are a learned prick who speaks down to them when you talk like that

/And, if you haven't been able to tell, I was pulling your leg

The folks that think I'm a prick aren't looking at my vocabulary (word) choices.

Thank you for looking out for me though.


I was trying to make a joke

I can see now that I failed miserably at it
2013-09-30 10:07:20 AM  
1 votes:

cman: DeaH: It's not negotiation unless both sides want opposite things. The Democrats want to avoid hurting the economy, so they want to raise the debt ceiling. If the Republicans think that's negotiable, then they want to harm the American economy. If that's what they want, who wants to give them anything?

They don't believe it will hurt the economy


They specifically want to hurt the economy and America, because America rejected them in the last election.   They'll never grow to love America half as much as they hate it when a black Democrat is in office.   Right now they're like the homicidal psycho ex-boyfriend who goes to their ex-girlfriend's place of work and guns her and her co-workers down screaming "If I can't have you, no one can."
2013-09-30 10:05:09 AM  
1 votes:

OlderGuy: zeroman987: QueenMamaBee: Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?

That doesn't pay the bills that are due during the shutdown... you do know that, right?

Actually, if you aren't essential, as about 900,000 people are categorized, you don't get back pay unless it is approved by congress. So, through no fault of their own, 900,000 gov't employees don't get paid because 20 potatoes want to privatize medicare and give another handout to their petrol buddies.

I am someone who should be the bread and butter for the republican party. I am very cautious when it comes to change and want to make sure any change to the status quo is well reasoned and debated to ensure its the right course; basically I am a conservate. However, I will never ever vote for any person with an (R) next to their name. They blew it. Anyone who votes for Republicans is not a conservative, at this point the republican party is filled with Fundys waiting for the apocalypse, the uber rich, and the unimformed.

No R voted for Obamacare..  would you buy something sight unseen?   I don't think so.. yet " lets pass the bill first.. NOW.... then we will see what,s in it"  ...  well, now we are seeing what,s in it...  I don't think most Americans are jumping with joy.. and it will get worse, and it won't get better.. Those that want to save this country are not D or R, who are too busy following the guy with the 'O' flute..  Hopefully we will wake up... we are 16+ trillion in debt ( actual number more like 70 trillion), printing 85 billion a month of currency based on air..  and all bubbles burst, in the end... our 'burst' will affect the world....  and the concussion will take us out... if that is what you want, keep on dickin' the chickin..... won't affect me much, but I feel bad for my nieces and nephews and those with families....  they will get to see the 'American Dream' turn into the 'North American Nightmare'....   think about it.......


You are a twit. There was plenty of time to read the ACA, that is why the members of congress have staffers: to read the legislation and advise them on it. These staffers are decently paid, intelligent, and will go on to do important things. This excuse of "sight unseen" is hokem and everyone knows it including you. How much do you get paid by the Kochs to spread this drivel?

It is potatoes like you that have ruined this country. You take and take and take and don't want to give back or even admit that you took anything. GFY troll.
2013-09-30 10:01:06 AM  
1 votes:
"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations."

Osama bin Laden - proto-Teabagger
2013-09-30 09:55:39 AM  
1 votes:
hasty ambush: We should see this as an opportunity.  Only essential government workers/services  will continue and that gives us a starting point for our budget and where to cut.


  As someone who was once deemed "essential personnel" with "non essential staff" let me disagree. Essential generally means "you have to stay during a crisis (ie a shutdown, a hurricane) and do your work with no support".

  Or - if this helps?  In the traditional nuclear family, Mom, Dad and two kids - only one parent is really essential.

  It really isn't the opportunity you might picture.
2013-09-30 09:49:32 AM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: ShuT
It
Down

/go't workers will get paid retroactively anyway
//Traffic this time of year realay sucks... get this d-bags off the roads!


I don't know if you've been educated yet, but most government workers will not receive retroactive pay, unless specifically approved by Congress.

Say what you will about congress, but we have one of the more productive governments in the world. Don't fark it up just because you're being an uninformed child.
2013-09-30 09:40:10 AM  
1 votes:

antidisestablishmentarianism: MarshWoman: I lived in the US for the first 36 years of my life. I had sh**ty BC/BS insurance through my employer for a while, then had to shell out of pocket for sh**ty BC/BS on my own. The coverage was horrible, but was all I could afford. Then I moved to Canada. Yes, the taxes are high- about the same as anywhere in the Northeastern US. The difference is that when I had to take my son to the ER last week, where he was admitted for emergency surgery, I gave the intake desk his health card. That's it.

I was working with some Canadians during the whole debate. They were conservatives and they said they would never give up their health care system. They mentioned that we missed out on a chance to have universal healthcare.


My Dad, who lives in NJ and reads every piece of crazy the teabaggers put out, actually tried to argue with me when the US healthcare plan was first being voted on. He kept telling me how horrible Canada's healthcare system was and how horrible the tax rates were (about the same as NJ), and how people in Canada were dying left and right because they had crappy healthcare, or were being denied life-saving procedures. I was stunned. I kept saying, "No, it's not like that." He kept insisting that it was and I had been brainwashed by the socialists.

This is the rank and file of the teaparty. Their "leaders" could cause the collapse of US society, and they would scurry to Faux news to be assured that it was all the fault of the brown man.
2013-09-30 09:34:56 AM  
1 votes:

Oblio13: Why does everyone seem to think that a few days without a huge, intrusive bureaucracy would be the end of the world?

The government shutting down "non-essential services" is like unemployed people going on strike. Most "non-essential services" are things it shouldn't be doing in the first place. 

Our leaders are alarming us so that we'll put pressure on their political opponents. Instead of being their frightened dupes, we should be telling them to make these cuts permanent.


Yeah. F*ck repairing the roads in Colorado before winter sets in. And who needs the EPA to monitor the contamination as the result of the recent flooding?
2013-09-30 09:33:00 AM  
1 votes:

INeedAName: We are so boned.



Why?   Government has shutdown before and life went on.   Sequestration certainly has not resulted in the apocalypse many predicted neither will this.  The shores will still be defended, mail delivered, Social Security and MEDICARE will function, bad guys still arrested, government surveillance will  still function etc.

We should see this as an opportunity.  Only essential government workers/services  will continue and that gives us a starting point for our budget and where to cut.

In the past agencies like the Social Security Administration deemed about 10% of their people "essential". Out of  a current total of 60,000 that is 6,000.  While they might need more than 6000 for normal operations  I bet they could get by with significantly less than 60,000 (equal to about 6 Army light infantry divisions to give the number some perspective).

There are a lot of clerks, assorted bureaucrats (under and assistant Secretaries of Defense, Army, Navy , Air Force and their staffs) and many Flag grade officers that we could do without and that would have no negative impact on national security.

Will the Senate barber shop be open or shut down?  How about the House Restaurant?

How about the 89th Air Force Wing that supplies aircraft for congressional  "fact finding' travel?

While food inspections are essential do we really need a national raisin reserve?

The IG of the The Denali Commission "which seeks to promote rural development, power generation and other infrastructure needs" recommended his agency , along with his job, no loner be funded.   There are many more like it that nee to disappear from the Federal budget.


As a starting point we could say all Federal Government employees deemed  "non-essential"  during the shutdown and who are eligible for retirement  must retire and we freeze hiring for non-essential positions


The Federal Government does not need more money
2013-09-30 09:18:17 AM  
1 votes:

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: My prediction is that this is all over by Wednesday, the GOP caves in after immense pressure from their major campaign donors, and everything goes back to "normal" until the debt ceiling battle on Oct 17th.


I'm not entirely convinced. The Teahadists have demonstrated that they're true believers. Have you tried reasoning with a religious fanatic?

The moderates are already backing away from the cliff but they're not significantly important without the numbers added by the Teahadists. We need both groups to be reasonable. Wall Street has had difficulty applying pressure to the Teahadists.

We'll either shut down now or postpone it to shutdown over the debt ceiling but a shut down seems pretty inevitable.

Then we'll see a change in the Republican party as members start pointing fingers and accusing one another of supporting the unpopular shutdown.
2013-09-30 09:16:12 AM  
1 votes:
I think it's interesting that some people are up in arms because The House is using a parlimentary trick (defunding) to try to stop a law that was passed using a parlimentary trick (reconciliation).

I, personally, feel that any law passed using underhanded tactics is fair game to be struck down using similar tactics.
2013-09-30 09:16:04 AM  
1 votes:

MarshWoman: I lived in the US for the first 36 years of my life. I had sh**ty BC/BS insurance through my employer for a while, then had to shell out of pocket for sh**ty BC/BS on my own. The coverage was horrible, but was all I could afford. Then I moved to Canada. Yes, the taxes are high- about the same as anywhere in the Northeastern US. The difference is that when I had to take my son to the ER last week, where he was admitted for emergency surgery, I gave the intake desk his health card. That's it.


I was working with some Canadians during the whole debate. They were conservatives and they said they would never give up their health care system. They mentioned that we missed out on a chance to have universal healthcare.
2013-09-30 09:04:54 AM  
1 votes:

Publikwerks: This is such a bad move by the GOP. There is no way the Senate even looks at the House bill, and polls show that people are going to blame the GOP for the shutdown. And a majority of Americans are ambivalent about the ACA. So if they win, they don't win anything from moderates. And if they force the shutdown, they lose big.

Meanwhile, Democrats can just sit back and watch. They have passed a clean CR, so they can say "we've done our part" and walk away. They win if the House caves, they win if the House doesn't cave.

Matter of fact, the longer and more painful the shutdown is, the better it is for the Democrats. All they have to do is turn their DVR's on and record everything for next fall.


You are wrong.   The People know who is pushing this.. Obamacare is a disaster, the worst is yet to come.. all know it, many won't admit it.. Obama and the Old Guard don't care.. they got theirs already, now they want to take what little we have.. It is plain for all to see who is pushing this.. if you think 2010 was a wakeup, wait for 2014 and 2016...  if you want to keep America, we better clean house !  The Establishment is old and corrupt, only interested in furthering their cause at our expense.. it,s time to retire the 'good ol' boys'...  take off the blinders and look around.. we have regulated ourselves out of what made this country great..  everybody used to buy Quality from us.. now we buy Crap from them... One entity is causing this, plus all of their followers who don't want to give up the free stuff...

i.imgur.com

And if you deny this, you are blind and stupid...   Please wake up.....
2013-09-30 08:57:16 AM  
1 votes:

A Terrible Human: Thunderpipes: Going to be hilarious when the few Democrats who actually work get their new health care bills.

I say we let all the people making under 1 million a year die. Cut off all services,let the poors riot while the job creators are safe in their mansions with security guards. Then after that everything will be just fine.


Unless those security guards are getting paid $1M per year or more, I don't think you thought your plan all the way through...
=Smidge=
2013-09-30 08:51:39 AM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


There's nothing to negotiate.
2013-09-30 08:48:56 AM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore


What are they willing to give up in the negotiations?  If they don't want a shut down, preventing one is not a negotiation sacrifice.

Your statement is contradictory if you can't name something they want that they are willing to sacrifice.

If the only thing they are offering is to fund the government then that must mean they don't want to fund the government and want the shutdown.
2013-09-30 08:47:09 AM  
1 votes:

Oblio13: Why does everyone seem to think that a few days without a huge, intrusive bureaucracy would be the end of the world?

The government shutting down "non-essential services" is like unemployed people going on strike. Most "non-essential services" are things it shouldn't be doing in the first place. 

Our leaders are alarming us so that we'll put pressure on their political opponents. Instead of being their frightened dupes, we should be telling them to make these cuts permanent.


Actually, that is not what unessential services means. For example, in social security, the judges have to work but the rest of the staff is deemed nonessential. The reason being is that they can't stop the hearings, but can delay sending out actual decisions and can delay new hearings being held. In an extended shutdown, they will have to bring the staff back because they are neccessary to run the program. Without the staff, there are hearings held that have been scheduled for 2 months, but no decisions, no work up on newly received files, and no new hearings scheduled.

Then again you are a simpleton because only a simpleton would find it necessary to opine on something they have no knowledge.
2013-09-30 08:47:03 AM  
1 votes:
I really hate Republicans so much right now. So much suffering they want to cause in the name of making poor people suffer even more.
They've turned themselves into caricatures of villains now.

They're like Snidely Whiplash without the cool mustache.
And people are dumb enough to support them, which boggles the mind.
2013-09-30 08:40:26 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Publikwerks: This is such a bad move by the GOP. There is no way the Senate even looks at the House bill, and polls show that people are going to blame the GOP for the shutdown. And a majority of Americans are ambivalent about the ACA. So if they win, they don't win anything from moderates. And if they force the shutdown, they lose big.

Meanwhile, Democrats can just sit back and watch. They have passed a clean CR, so they can say "we've done our part" and walk away. They win if the House caves, they win if the House doesn't cave.

Matter of fact, the longer and more painful the shutdown is, the better it is for the Democrats. All they have to do is turn their DVR's on and record everything for next fall.

No, majority of Americans do not like Obamacare. Majority of businesses do not either. Only welfare bums and hard core left wing crazies think it will be anything but a disaster. Even the unions don't like it now. Obama is trying to get them a 200 billion dollar subsidy just for them. It will not work.


You just look like an idiot when you say things like this.
2013-09-30 08:35:17 AM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?


Can they pay their mortgage, insurance, or credit car retroactively? Can they eat retroactively?

Can you be aborted, retroactively?

If the answer to all is yes, then by all means, proceed with the shutdown with my blessing.
2013-09-30 08:34:48 AM  
1 votes:
Hi, everyone, whenever a Republican makes a prediction about the future, remember they seriously thought on Election Day that Mitt Romney was going to win
2013-09-30 08:27:59 AM  
1 votes:
We may not like Obamacare.  The president may have admitted that he wants to change the law.  But it is the law right now.

It would be one thing if the fight hadn't happened, but it did.  It happened when it went through Congress the first time.  It happened when it was the cornerstone for creating the president's election campaign...and he got re-elected.

Now is not the time for this fight.  It is absolutely ridiculous to repeatedly keep seeing Congress ransom off a government shut down or collapsing the debt ceiling.   If you look back at the history of Congress, this is something that has almost always been sacred.  The debt ceiling and actually paying people who work were usually left out of the political arguments.

No one was stupid enough to risk our economy then, it's too bad they are now.

Boston had it right, throw all the tea into the ocean.  Time to start replacing people
2013-09-30 08:27:57 AM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: Publikwerks: badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore

Defunding/postponing the ACA is a higher priority to them, otherwise, the house would have passed a clean funding bill like the Senate did. It is their fault.

That is what they were elected to do. The Senate has to negotiate with them. The Senate is saying we don't like it so you get nothing.


Well, no, they don't. Since polls show most people are gonna blame the GOP, there is little reason to negotiate. The ACA is a lost cause. It's in effect, and is not going anywhere.
2013-09-30 08:27:27 AM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: Publikwerks: badhatharry: THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore

Defunding/postponing the ACA is a higher priority to them, otherwise, the house would have passed a clean funding bill like the Senate did. It is their fault.

That is what they were elected to do. The Senate has to negotiate with them and the House has to negotiate with the Senate and the President. The Senate is saying we don't like it so you get nothing to not shut down the federal government.

2013-09-30 08:23:01 AM  
1 votes:
Meh.. when ObamaCare decides to do something crazy and actually allow a friend's pre-existing condition to be covered, then maybe I'll care.

Until then, it's just another medical plan that won't help with the hundred thousand minimum testing bills followed by the over 300,000 in bills for the actual fix.  Resulting in her being able to drive down the road without randomly being temporarily paralyzed from the waist down.  She even has the joys and wonders of knowing that some day she will be permanently paralyzed from the waist down.

(Ah, medical profession friends who like other medical profession people get advanced copies of all the revisions to any new health policies/laws/regulations)
2013-09-30 08:22:25 AM  
1 votes:

QueenMamaBee: Aristocles: hammer85: I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.

You're gonna get paid retroactively... you do know this, right?

That doesn't pay the bills that are due during the shutdown... you do know that, right?


I'm going to call wells fargo and tell them im going to retroactively pay them my mortgage.  I mean, they pretty much own congress anyway so they should understand right?
2013-09-30 08:19:12 AM  
1 votes:
I'm in the Eastern Hemisphere, so it's already Monday night here.  Therefore, I know what happens Monday afternoon in DC.

I won't tell you.  But, it IS scary.

/all praise the time cube
2013-09-30 08:18:42 AM  
1 votes:
Mixed feelings... do I want them to defund Romneycare, which has very few positive points as compared to its negatives, or want them to keep it funded and find another way to budget their expenses and keep Romneycare so that we at least have some mongoloid bastardization of socialized medicine?

Meh... double-edged sword.

/ Socialist
2013-09-30 08:17:11 AM  
1 votes:
I love these assholes toying with my livelihood.  Because we all know its not like government employees have bills to pay or anything.
2013-09-30 08:15:34 AM  
1 votes:
How many birth control and abortion restrictions will the Republicans shoehorn into it?
2013-09-30 08:15:11 AM  
1 votes:
2013-09-30 08:14:36 AM  
1 votes:
THE TEA PARTY IS NOT THREATENING SHUT DOWN! THEY DON'T WANT A SHUTDOWN! THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE!

THE DEMOCRATS WANT THE SHUT DOWN! THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE!


I can't take it anymore
2013-09-30 08:14:35 AM  
1 votes:
This is such a bad move by the GOP. There is no way the Senate even looks at the House bill, and polls show that people are going to blame the GOP for the shutdown. And a majority of Americans are ambivalent about the ACA. So if they win, they don't win anything from moderates. And if they force the shutdown, they lose big.

Meanwhile, Democrats can just sit back and watch. They have passed a clean CR, so they can say "we've done our part" and walk away. They win if the House caves, they win if the House doesn't cave.

Matter of fact, the longer and more painful the shutdown is, the better it is for the Democrats. All they have to do is turn their DVR's on and record everything for next fall.
2013-09-30 08:14:14 AM  
1 votes:
Both sides are wrong, so vote for me! I promise a chicken in every pot, and all the members of the WBC will be sent to Gitmo
2013-09-30 08:08:34 AM  
1 votes:
In B4Hitler
 
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