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(NPR)   Having online conversations is crippling our ability to have in-person conversations   (npr.org) divider line 94
    More: Obvious, digital native, Sherry Turkle, Toronto International Film Festival, conversations, John Cacioppo  
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3508 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Sep 2013 at 1:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-30 02:18:40 AM  

keithgabryelski: Until then ... we must suffer these foolish ideas of how the perfect world should be and that everything is going to hell because it isn't exactly how they imagined it to be when they were ten.


I want my jetpack.
 
2013-09-30 02:19:15 AM  

edmo: I generally defend the younger folks every time we have a Bash the Millennial thread but I do have a complaint: none of them can say more than two sentences in a row on the same subject.

I'm gonna guess college students no longer have hours long, substance infused philosophical discussions these days.


I run into this while dating. Say more than two sentences or a word they don't understand in conversation and you can hear the gears in their head come to a grinding halt.

I am truly grateful for the friends I can have an engaging conversation with
 
2013-09-30 02:22:07 AM  

Kusanagi: edmo: I generally defend the younger folks every time we have a Bash the Millennial thread but I do have a complaint: none of them can say more than two sentences in a row on the same subject.

I'm gonna guess college students no longer have hours long, substance infused philosophical discussions these days.

I run into this while dating. Say more than two sentences or a word they don't understand in conversation and you can hear the gears in their head come to a grinding halt.

I am truly grateful for the friends I can have an engaging conversation with


Entertainingly enough, I've had this same issue all my life until the Internet exploded around '98 and java chat was the new thing on everyone's web page.

I could make an obscure reference about Real Geniuses and at least two or three people would actually get it.

Of course, most of those intelligent people I ran into were as farked as I was, so the Internet has its positives and negatives.
 
2013-09-30 02:25:47 AM  
Seventy-five to 100 years ago, if you had what was then regarded as a superior high school education, I daresay you'd blow the intellectual doors off of most superior high school education graduates of today.

I think what I'm trying to say is, back in that time frame (and before) the educational "highs" were higher than ours are today, but the educational "lows" then were also lower, i.e., illiteracy was more common across the board. Of course, there were a lot more jobs that allowed for those lower standards.

The Internet is an infinite encyclopedia.
 
2013-09-30 02:40:38 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: The Internet is an infinite encyclopedia.


OF PORN
 
2013-09-30 02:42:02 AM  

BumpInTheNight: Oh dear god I was just joking about the idea of giving a young child a smartphone and one of those "Lets troll slashdot.org" questions comes up asking for advice on best smartphone for a god damn four year old... and there's several people in there seriously defending the idea.


A smartphone, no. A 4 year old, no. But some form of phone for a child that has the freedom to leave the house/yard on his or her own is just smart. The day your son or daughter can ride their bike to a friend's house or go someplace other than home after school is the day they should get some form of phone. Communications, particularly in times of emergency, are absolutely critical. You'll never know when there's a tornado warning in effect, or some family crisis has occurred. Or maybe school got let out early and they need to let you know. There's a million reasons why a human being with some level of autonomy, however small, should have the ability to communicate with other people over a phone/text.
 
2013-09-30 02:49:36 AM  

taurusowner: BumpInTheNight: Oh dear god I was just joking about the idea of giving a young child a smartphone and one of those "Lets troll slashdot.org" questions comes up asking for advice on best smartphone for a god damn four year old... and there's several people in there seriously defending the idea.

A smartphone, no. A 4 year old, no. But some form of phone for a child that has the freedom to leave the house/yard on his or her own is just smart. The day your son or daughter can ride their bike to a friend's house or go someplace other than home after school is the day they should get some form of phone. Communications, particularly in times of emergency, are absolutely critical. You'll never know when there's a tornado warning in effect, or some family crisis has occurred. Or maybe school got let out early and they need to let you know. There's a million reasons why a human being with some level of autonomy, however small, should have the ability to communicate with other people over a phone/text.


A tough built, pre-programmed phone that can dial 911 and a handful of #s that you personally put into the phone, and can't receive unknown #s is good for a child of 10+ to have for emergencies.

Nothing more than that, though.
 
2013-09-30 02:54:54 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: Seventy-five to 100 years ago, if you had what was then regarded as a superior high school education, I daresay you'd blow the intellectual doors off of most superior high school education graduates of today.

I think what I'm trying to say is, back in that time frame (and before) the educational "highs" were higher than ours are today, but the educational "lows" then were also lower, i.e., illiteracy was more common across the board. Of course, there were a lot more jobs that allowed for those lower standards.

The Internet is an infinite encyclopedia.


Simple dilution. Having a small percentage of people going to school means the teachers can spend their time teaching them to read Plato and Socrates in their early teens, learning Latin names for animals, advanced mathematics, etc. This while the rest of society gets by with apprenticeships and farming. If you weren't one whom your parents knew they'd be sending to advanced schools(rich people) you'd be learning some sort of trade at a young age or working the family farm.

We've diluted the education system while simultaneously advancing technologically past where are minds are averagely capable. The 80% idiots who probably can't handle much more than farming or working a loom are thrust in with the 20% who can actually understand philosophy and math at a high level. And since we've automated much of the industries that historically have been tended to by that 80%, they have no where to go and we require more smart people to run and build the technology we've become used to. But the percentages haven't really changed. Most people are still as stupid as humans have always been. Until recently, the division of labor has been able to match that division of intelligence. Now it can't, and we've had a massive influx of stupid people being force-fed stuff they probably will never be able to learn simply because we don't know what else to do with them.

The "college for everyone" fad has exacerbated this. There are plenty of students out there who honestly would be better off learning to weld, fix cars, shingle a roof, or wire a house at an early age. College is going to be lost on them. But we've built college up as something everyone needs to do to be worth anything. So you have millions of people getting communications and liberal arts degrees, racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt....only to figure out after school that they are pretty good at welding, fixing cars, and wiring houses, and that they  aren't good at the stuff their college degree was supposed to be teaching them.

No parent wants to be told "your son should start learning to mop floors, because that's all he'll probably ever amount to" even if it is the most true statement ever made.
 
x23
2013-09-30 02:57:34 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: Seventy-five to 100 years ago, if you had what was then regarded as a superior high school education, I daresay you'd blow the intellectual doors off of most superior high school education graduates of today.


of course! here is proof! http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp
 
2013-09-30 02:58:11 AM  

taurusowner: Huck And Molly Ziegler: Seventy-five to 100 years ago, if you had what was then regarded as a superior high school education, I daresay you'd blow the intellectual doors off of most superior high school education graduates of today.

I think what I'm trying to say is, back in that time frame (and before) the educational "highs" were higher than ours are today, but the educational "lows" then were also lower, i.e., illiteracy was more common across the board. Of course, there were a lot more jobs that allowed for those lower standards.

The Internet is an infinite encyclopedia.

Simple dilution. Having a small percentage of people going to school means the teachers can spend their time teaching them to read Plato and Socrates in their early teens, learning Latin names for animals, advanced mathematics, etc. This while the rest of society gets by with apprenticeships and farming. If you weren't one whom your parents knew they'd be sending to advanced schools(rich people) you'd be learning some sort of trade at a young age or working the family farm.

We've diluted the education system while simultaneously advancing technologically past where are minds are averagely capable. The 80% idiots who probably can't handle much more than farming or working a loom are thrust in with the 20% who can actually understand philosophy and math at a high level. And since we've automated much of the industries that historically have been tended to by that 80%, they have no where to go and we require more smart people to run and build the technology we've become used to. But the percentages haven't really changed. Most people are still as stupid as humans have always been. Until recently, the division of labor has been able to match that division of intelligence. Now it can't, and we've had a massive influx of stupid people being force-fed stuff they probably will never be able to learn simply because we don't know what else to do with them.

The "college for everyone" fad has exacerbat ...


Combine this with the theory that adolescence has expanded from 17 to around 24-25 and you're looking at a case where college has become the modern version of High School.
 
2013-09-30 03:07:41 AM  
So the more times we say "digital native", the more it's a thing?
 
2013-09-30 03:25:10 AM  

Tatterdemalian: "'If you want a man to be honest, then give him a mask, turn the lights off, let nobody know who he is, and he doesn't have to worry about what you think about him,' he says."

And yet, when the internet did just that for him, "Eventually, he says, the person in his profile was wasn't really him anymore - just a version of the person he wanted to be."

/doesn't pass the smell test
//and given the stuff I've heard on XBox Live, I think we should stop encouraging that much honesty
///we have a civilization where everybody pretends they have their dark side under control for a reason, you know


The way I see it, it does pass the smell test. The mask, dark room and anonymity is based of his chatroullette experience. You meet someone once and have a real time conversation. There is no reason to carefully craft a persona.

The second part is about a profile, something people can look up whenever they want and is linked to a person. It isn't anonymous and there is a reason to keep certain parts of yourself to yourself because friends and family might/will see it. If not the boss and co-workers. Even a fake profile can be linked back if there are pictures on it. With the added benefit that people can scroll back and forth in a profile,making anything said easily accessable.
 
2013-09-30 03:42:27 AM  

Jim_Callahan: edmo: I'm gonna guess college students no longer have hours long, substance infused philosophical discussions these days.

Nope, my students and neighbors still do the "hanging out drunk talking about random shiat" thing.  I catch the receiving end of it a lot because I'm old enough that I am capable of shutting my mouth even if I'm not sober.


I have not noticed the local teenagers (I live 2 blocks in either direction from a high school and a middle school) doing any less talking than we ever did 40 years ago. They talk to each other, on their cell phones, via text and Twitter, all at the same time and at peak volume, but that's only a change in technology, not conversation. If we'd had the cell phones, we'd have done that too.
 
2013-09-30 03:52:58 AM  

Mentat: kkinnison: I cannot even have a proper discussion anymore.  Too many people go into conversations KNOWING they are right, and refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary.  if you point it our, they take it as a personal attack, and get all offended

A corollary to that is that everyone seems to have their own definition of logic which they are convinced is actually logical.


Um... that's not how logic works.  There's only one logic, and it doesn't vary with viewpoint.

If you mean that people are working form different assumptions and anecdotal experience, yes, but that has nothing to do with logic itself.  Logic isn't a prima facie thing, it's a way to get from point A to point B without wandering in a circle.
 
2013-09-30 05:04:18 AM  

hubiestubert: Mentat: That's because I don't want to actually meet any of you.  I read Craigslist, I know how these irl meet-ups work.

Hey, Farkers will leave you ONE working kidney. They're good like that...


Don't you need both for decent sautéed kidneys all Diavola for six?
 
2013-09-30 05:04:53 AM  
*alla, dammit
 
2013-09-30 05:13:41 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Jim_Callahan: edmo: I'm gonna guess college students no longer have hours long, substance infused philosophical discussions these days.

Nope, my students and neighbors still do the "hanging out drunk talking about random shiat" thing.  I catch the receiving end of it a lot because I'm old enough that I am capable of shutting my mouth even if I'm not sober.

I have not noticed the local teenagers (I live 2 blocks in either direction from a high school and a middle school) doing any less talking than we ever did 40 years ago. They talk to each other, on their cell phones, via text and Twitter, all at the same time and at peak volume, but that's only a change in technology, not conversation. If we'd had the cell phones, we'd have done that too.


I think it actually IS a change because they're spending more time using non-verbal ways to communicate with each other. If you asked them which they used more, they'd probably say "Oh, definitely texting." Their phone etiquette is evolving to a scenario in which actually using a cell phone to talk is what you do as a last resort when the conversation gets too complicated for texting.
 
2013-09-30 05:18:02 AM  

studebaker hoch: So the more times we say "digital native", the more it's a thing?


Only when we can say "The digital natives are restless tonight".
 
2013-09-30 05:43:16 AM  

Tatterdemalian: "'If you want a man to be honest, then give him a mask, turn the lights off, let nobody know who he is, and he doesn't have to worry about what you think about him,' he says."

And yet, when the internet did just that for him, "Eventually, he says, the person in his profile was wasn't really him anymore - just a version of the person he wanted to be."

/doesn't pass the smell test
//and given the stuff I've heard on XBox Live, I think we should stop encouraging that much honesty
///we have a civilization where everybody pretends they have their dark side under control for a reason, you know


Facebook is generally for people that already know you and not anonymous.

Did you miss that "let nobody know who he is" part?
 
2013-09-30 07:20:11 AM  
Good.  Now I'll be "normal"
 
2013-09-30 07:32:08 AM  

kkinnison: I cannot even have a proper discussion anymore.  Too many people go into conversations KNOWING they are right, and refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary.  if you point it our, they take it as a personal attack, and get all offended


Try a private reply next time. Doing so publicly (on their wall,etc) puts them on the immediate defensive as it shames them. Learn to be thoughtful with words and how you communicate. People WILL listen if you learn to communicate better.
 
2013-09-30 07:58:02 AM  

edmo: I generally defend the younger folks every time we have a Bash the Millennial thread but I do have a complaint: none of them can say more than two sentences in a row on the same subject.

I'm gonna guess college students no longer have hours long, substance infused philosophical discussions these days.


Also, they all have the same ability to make eye contact I used to associate with people that were sexually/physically abused.
 
2013-09-30 08:00:20 AM  

Everything is Awful: Article uses "compose" like it is a bad thing.

Is there something wrong with people being thoughtful about what they say when communicating with each other?


No, but let's not pretend that people "composing" emails are doing the same as the Sullivan Ballou letter, either.
 
2013-09-30 08:08:51 AM  
"For instance, when fighting with your spouse, texting can take the heat out of the argument."

Each text becomes ambiguously snarky and offensive.
 
2013-09-30 08:23:12 AM  
Why yes, like most things conversational skills take practice and those skills will atrophy if you don't use them.

Farkin' duh.
 
2013-09-30 09:14:38 AM  
Much of communication is about knowing how to address the other people in the conversation. I think that's why so many internet arguments start, because the people go into it thinking that everyone is on the same wavelength, and coming from the same contextual place.
 
2013-09-30 09:20:18 AM  

Mentat: That's because I don't want to actually meet any of you.  I read Craigslist, I know how these irl meet-ups work.


He fixes the cable?
 
2013-09-30 10:12:35 AM  
I find just the opposite. Since I'm not a very talkative person, but I've been on Fark for a 1000 years now, I've noticed that when I talk to people now, I talk just like I write--very formally, using a lot of precise words. I'm sure a lot of people think I'm some kind of priss or something, but it's just something I've picked up.

/Also I cuss like a @#^$! sailor, so that might destroy any notions of what a prim intellectual I am.
 
2013-09-30 10:34:52 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Um... that's not how logic works. There's only one logic, and it doesn't vary with viewpoint.


That's my point.  It's not about starting from different assumptions, it's about people having their own spurious rules of logic and being utterly convinced that they're using actual logic.
 
2013-09-30 10:42:24 AM  
No it's not.
 
2013-09-30 10:42:42 AM  
Especially when everybody starts adding '@' and '#' to their conversations. #downfallofcivilization
 
2013-09-30 11:16:52 AM  
Having online conversations is crippling our ability to have in-person conversations

Good.
 
2013-09-30 11:28:19 AM  
I was the person who was extremely-socially-awkward-penguin in high school, and then discovered IRC.  Now, I'm... well, I'm still socially awkward, but I seem to be doing much better.

/he says on Fark...
 
2013-09-30 12:18:15 PM  

kkinnison: I cannot even have a proper discussion anymore.  Too many people go into conversations KNOWING they are right, and refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary.  if you point it our, they take it as a personal attack, and get all offended


They also get offended when you pause the conversation long enough to check their references, look things up on Wikipedia, or try to find the perfect image macro to sum up your opinion.
 
2013-09-30 01:17:15 PM  
Interesting study.  I sell items or my services quite often on Craigslist...you can instantly tell who's younger (below 30) or older...the older "folks" tend to email or call you...without fail most younger kids stick strictly to texting, even up to the point where you meet them.

Talking to people isn't going to kill you, kids.
 
2013-09-30 01:28:21 PM  

spamdog: Huck And Molly Ziegler: The Internet is an infinite encyclopedia.
OF PORN


OMG. I don't look at porn, and I still find the internet to be infinite. What is beyond infinite?!???
I need to think about this when I'm really high. Maybe I can find some young people to discuss this with, see if they have any conversational skills.

/But it'll just turn into a discussion about pron.
//And why would I want to talk to them anyway? That's why I got old--so I don't have to talk to them.
 
2013-09-30 01:31:25 PM  

red5ish: Having an online relationship means never having to share your ice cream.


Drinking while on the internet means you're never drinking alone.
 
2013-09-30 02:03:03 PM  
this is saying the problem is that we prefer carefully composing and editing our interactions to the clumsy spontaneity of in-person conversations...

but online/mobile messages can also be the opposite, even more spontaneous and unfiltered than they are in person, especially with the perceived immunity of anonymous accounts.

so I have trouble seeing how this is impacting in-person conversations, if anything it makes me savor them more. speech doesn't have to be carefully constructed and spell-checked, it doesn't have to be iterated on and optimized, it can convey your thoughts more freely and more accurately and capture your personality much more than a typeface ever can. it's ideal for interviews, dates, heart-to-hearts, an efficient form of communication between coworkers, an effective tool for education.. if anything, in-person conversations represent an ideal that the written word can match, exceed, or abbreviate as needed, but will never replace.
 
2013-09-30 02:53:38 PM  
Having always been socially awkward myself (just seem to be wire different somehow) I think I can see more from the outside in. It seems way, way too much is made of a person's 'social IQ'. I've seen (and experienced) many people getting passed over and ignored for promotions and other forms of approval just because they are shy and awkward. I've also seen many very incompetent, mean and well just awful people rewarded for just being pushy (and often being a hindrance).

I think the human species would be much better off with a lot less 'face to face' contact.
 
2013-09-30 03:00:42 PM  

spamdog: Infernalist: On the other hand, you can't click 'ignore' on a person in RL and never have to hear their dribbling bullshiat ever again, either.

On the, uh, third hand, you can actually smash someone right in the face IRL if they piss you off enough.

Seriously though, I know we all know that claims about millenials being "entitled" or fundamentally worse than the last generation are largely bullshiat, but I think internet-only socialization is quite genuinely a new frontier in human interaction.


Well if Star Trek is at all right about new frontiers, it's important for us to do our damndest to connect with the people most different from us.

/and have sex with them
 
2013-09-30 03:21:27 PM  

hitlersbrain: Having always been socially awkward myself (just seem to be wire different somehow) I think I can see more from the outside in. It seems way, way too much is made of a person's 'social IQ'. I've seen (and experienced) many people getting passed over and ignored for promotions and other forms of approval just because they are shy and awkward. I've also seen many very incompetent, mean and well just awful people rewarded for just being pushy (and often being a hindrance).

I think the human species would be much better off with a lot less 'face to face' contact.


I both relate and agree...however, I feel like I've had to come to terms with the fact that that's just how the world is, so (if it's affecting you negatively) you may have to do yourself a favor and work on overcoming this limitation.  And there is a lot of sense to it--in order to get your ideas known, you have to "push" them and connect with people (otherwise how else would they know?) and even today face-to-face still trumps online for making a meaningful connection.  Overdoing it by X usually edges out underdoing it by X, unless you're lucky enough to find people (friends, bosses, whoever) that see your worth without you broadcasting it.  I know it's cliched but I don't think there's any way around it.
 
2013-09-30 07:05:47 PM  
But what if they throw a penis at you in mid-conversation?  That would be SOOOO CREEPY.
 
2013-09-30 08:24:20 PM  

hitlersbrain: Having always been socially awkward myself (just seem to be wire different somehow) I think I can see more from the outside in. It seems way, way too much is made of a person's 'social IQ'. I've seen (and experienced) many people getting passed over and ignored for promotions and other forms of approval just because they are shy and awkward. I've also seen many very incompetent, mean and well just awful people rewarded for just being pushy (and often being a hindrance).

I think the human species would be much better off with a lot less 'face to face' contact.


It is perfectly possible to be shy, and yet not awkward - i.e. perfectly capable of pleasant social interaction without making either yourself other people feel inordinately uncomfortable.

The thing is social interaction takes practice.  Discomfort with social gatherings can be overcome with experience.  And while a natural introvert (such as myself) will never be as comfortable with it as someone who is naturally extroverted, that's not a bad thing.  Social gatherings need both to be enjoyable.

The species would not be better off with less face-to-face interaction.  The fact is, we need in-person interaction.  It's what makes the world go round.  Less social interaction wouldn't ease social awkwardness in anyone... it would make the awkwardness worse and more widespread.
 
2013-09-30 09:10:00 PM  
Meh.  I have not been ruined by the internet, just had my standards raised.  Bad as I complain about how bad fark has gotten(price of popularity) the occasional good conversation still happens.

Real life with random strangers amounts to small talk 90% of the time.  I thought that was a waste of effort long before the internet became a common thing and was quiet even then.

The internet doesn't cripple people, it gives people who can't stand (stupid)people a chance to connect.  Unfortunately, as I led in with, it lets stupid people do the same.  We've all seen the politics tab more or less ooze on to the rest of the site, found people who get on here seemingly thinking they're clever but they are quite obviously the epitome of stupid.

So the ratio on the internet is much as it is in real life now(with the exceptions of specific places, just as in real life).  The nice difference is, we can mute/ignore the willfully ignorant dregs here.  We laugh at creationists, even as they present their argument.  If they get too bothersome we can even make it so that they virtually go away, never to be heard from again.

That's murder and/or assault in the real world.  Thank god(figurative) for the internet.

The internet doesn't ruin most people, people were farked up to begin with, one way or another.  Yes, even you.
 
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