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(Yahoo)   Poker player Archie Karas famously gambled $50 into $40 million over three years. Looks like the casinos have finally found out how   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 68
    More: Fail, Archie Karas, Nevada Gaming Control Board, dice  
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20828 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Sep 2013 at 12:19 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-28 12:25:01 PM
First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.
 
2013-09-28 12:25:18 PM
There goes my retirement strategy
 
2013-09-28 12:26:11 PM
thank god this menace is off the streets!
 
2013-09-28 12:27:28 PM

Smackledorfer: Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.


The luck-based nature of the game is precisely what makes it so appealing to people, because pure skill-based games expose people for what they actually are.  They ain't doing million-dollar chess tournaments every week.
 
2013-09-28 12:27:44 PM

freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?


Read the article...four prior arrests...no convictions...time to plant evidence in his home.
 
2013-09-28 12:27:51 PM
So a crook stealing from other crooks?
 
2013-09-28 12:28:22 PM
$40 million? What was their first clue?

/doesn't understand the thrill of gambling
//but $40M could change my mind
 
2013-09-28 12:29:58 PM
"This defendant's luck ran out thanks to extraordinary cooperation between several different law enforcement agencies who worked together to investigate and prosecute this case," said county District Attorney Bonnie Dumanis "

Yeah, you are bunch of regular farking heroes.
 
2013-09-28 12:31:18 PM

Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.


Interestingly enough similar statistics work against mutual fund managers 

Anyway, why would he smudge blackjack cards?
Why not just count them?  Much less risky and then all they do is toss you out when they suspect it.
 
2013-09-28 12:31:33 PM

freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?


Somebody allowed him to cheat.
 
2013-09-28 12:32:23 PM

Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

 anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners.


Yeah, this. What the smart ones do is get a lucky streak, quit, and then start selling their "lucky rabbit foot" to the rubes.
 
2013-09-28 12:32:57 PM
So he's taken in $40 million, and is facing charges for $8k worth of theft, with a maximum of 3 years (and restitution on the $8k).
I'm going to call that a win.
 
2013-09-28 12:35:48 PM
Mongo just pawn in game of blackjack.

wut?
 
2013-09-28 12:36:23 PM
California Justice Department spokeswoman Michelle Gregory said Karas was doing the marking with dye inserted into a hollowed-out gambling chip that he would inconspicuously swipe over the cards while playing through a deck.

From my experience at blackjack, only the dealer touched ALL of the cards. At least I think that's what I remember. Am I off base?
 
2013-09-28 12:36:38 PM

buzzcut73: So he's taken in $40 million, and is facing charges for $8k worth of theft, with a maximum of 3 years (and restitution on the $8k).
I'm going to call that a win.


Not so much...

FTA: He subsequently lost most of those winnings at baccarat and dice games in three weeks

Earned $40 Million in three years, lost $40 Million in 3 weeks.
 
2013-09-28 12:37:26 PM

Sticky Hands: Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.

Interestingly enough similar statistics work against mutual fund managers 

Anyway, why would he smudge blackjack cards?
Why not just count them?  Much less risky and then all they do is toss you out when they suspect it.


Most casinos use a shoe with multiple decks to prevent counting.
 
2013-09-28 12:38:42 PM

buzzcut73: So he's taken in $40 million, and is facing charges for $8k worth of theft, with a maximum of 3 years (and restitution on the $8k).
I'm going to call that a win.


It sounds like he cannot control himself, so I imagine he'll lose his bunghole in a game of dice in prison.
 
2013-09-28 12:39:33 PM

freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?



The house uses a deck (or decks) for two to four hours.  You start marking the cards during the first few run throughs, then by the end of the deck's "life," you have an advantage over the house.
 
2013-09-28 12:39:38 PM
When I go on vacation, I find a casino with roulette. Have probably only handed them $50 over three years. But last year I walked out with enough loot to pay for the whole vacation. That was great.
 
2013-09-28 12:39:52 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: buzzcut73: So he's taken in $40 million, and is facing charges for $8k worth of theft, with a maximum of 3 years (and restitution on the $8k).
I'm going to call that a win.

Not so much...

FTA: He subsequently lost most of those winnings at baccarat and dice games in three weeks

Earned $40 Million in three years, lost $40 Million in 3 weeks.


Delving one whole paragraph deeper:

He subsequently lost most of those winnings at baccarat and dice games in three weeks, according to Tom Sexton, who publishes the online gambling magazine Poker News. Karas returned to the poker table many times, often with backers, and cleaned out many of the best players in the world, according to Sexton.
 
2013-09-28 12:40:32 PM

mrlewish: So a crook stealing from other crooks?


This, I went to a casino for the first time few weeks ago, I went with $50 to lose and sure enough those $2 and $3 winners didn't last.

I play poker with friends for cash, we drop $20 and $1 from each player goes to buy fresh decks. We all rotate and 1 is the dealer, this curbs teams or anyone trying to cheat, in three years its been a hoot.
/we made our own table as well, took a cheap $20 table from Habitat and formed it into a poker table, with cup holders and all - it can seat 9 comfortably.
 
2013-09-28 12:43:04 PM

MutantMotherMouse: /doesn't understand the thrill of gambling
//but $40M could change my mind


Because if you don't actually get pleasure from the act of playing and understanding the game itself, you need to inject a secondary compulsion into the process in order to make it interesting.
 
2013-09-28 12:45:49 PM

freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?


     They use decks for a set period of time like 6 hours.  So if he starts when those decks go into play, he could have a few hours to accumulate wins, hence the low payout of 8k.

Wadded Beef: California Justice Department spokeswoman Michelle Gregory said Karas was doing the marking with dye inserted into a hollowed-out gambling chip that he would inconspicuously swipe over the cards while playing through a deck.

From my experience at blackjack, only the dealer touched ALL of the cards. At least I think that's what I remember. Am I off base?


     They have both, BJ where only the dealer touches the cards and BJ where the player may touch them as well.  The cards get inspected differently depending on which method of play was used.  At the places I'm familiar with if a game allows a player to touch the deck, ALL cards must be thoroughly inspected. If it's a dealer only game, only a certain percentage must be inspected.
 
2013-09-28 12:47:28 PM

maxx2112: freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?


The house uses a deck (or decks) for two to four hours.  You start marking the cards during the first few run throughs, then by the end of the deck's "life," you have an advantage over the house.


he won the big money playing poker, where they rotate decks between games.
and lost all his winnings ... HAHAHAH AHAHAHAH HAHAHAAHAH HAHAHAHA
 
2013-09-28 12:51:09 PM

Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.


I once won a jackpot at a slot machine. I hate slots and was only playing because I was drunk. Anyway, it was like 24k or something on a $3 bet. Needless to say I was excited as all hell. Difficulty: I was still a young and impulsive man. I stayed there for nearly 36 hours, with my girlfriend eagerly watching as I managed to lose not only the winnings, but about $2500 of my own cash.

Dejected, we went home and apologized to the dog for not having taken him out for so long (he only shiat a few times, and in polite, out-of-the-way places). It was then that I realized that if something can make me ignore my dog I should probably never do it again. And for a good ten years I didn't.

Still, I'll occasionally pop a $5 bill in a video poker machine at a bar. But that's IT. If I lose it, I go back to the bar and order another beer. The last time I did this I was playing straight poker and was dealt a royal flush. No draw or anything. The machine just farking gave it to me right off the bat. It paid out $500 (the maximum allowed per machine ). I instantly cashed out, gave the bartender a 20, and bought everyone at the bar a round of drinks to celebrate. Of course, all the folks drinking well bourbon and PBR suddenly wanted Woodford Reserve and craft beers, but it still only cost me about $80. When you win in a local's bar, the polite thing to do is share the wealth.

The point is, I cashed out immediately. Man, I already have an addictive personality, but at least my scotch habit doesn't cost much when I do most of my boozing at home. But gambling? Sheeeeiiit. Maybe my liver is on the fritz but at least I have a positive bank balance.
 
2013-09-28 12:51:26 PM

Franko618: freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?

     They use decks for a set period of time like 6 hours.  So if he starts when those decks go into play, he could have a few hours to accumulate wins, hence the low payout of 8k.

Wadded Beef: California Justice Department spokeswoman Michelle Gregory said Karas was doing the marking with dye inserted into a hollowed-out gambling chip that he would inconspicuously swipe over the cards while playing through a deck.

From my experience at blackjack, only the dealer touched ALL of the cards. At least I think that's what I remember. Am I off base?

     They have both, BJ where only the dealer touches the cards and BJ where the player may touch them as well.  The cards get inspected differently depending on which method of play was used.  At the places I'm familiar with if a game allows a player to touch the deck, ALL cards must be thoroughly inspected. If it's a dealer only game, only a certain percentage must be inspected.


could you use special dye which requires you to wear special glasses to see the die?

plus he won the big money playing power, but got caught playing BJ

meh, in the end, he is a cretin who pissed away stolen money by gambling
 
2013-09-28 12:53:52 PM

Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.


Addiction is farked up.  I have a buddy who went to Hazelton for an alcohol and he met this guy there that stole millions of dollars from the company he worked for.  They would have meetings, the guy would say he knew he had enough, he just couldn't stop.
 
2013-09-28 12:57:56 PM

Bslim: "This defendant's luck ran out thanks to extraordinary cooperation between several different law enforcement agencies who worked together to investigate and prosecute this case," said county District Attorney Bonnie Dumanis "

Yeah, you are bunch of regular farking heroes.


I'm sure they're spending so much time & resources on card counters because they've already solved all of Las Vegas's mortgage fraud and banking crimes...
 
2013-09-28 12:58:01 PM

freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?


Um... No.
 
2013-09-28 01:00:37 PM

LeroyBourne: Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Addiction is farked up.  I have a buddy who went to Hazelton for an alcohol and he met this guy there that stole millions of dollars from the company he worked for.  They would have meetings, the guy would say he knew he had enough, he just couldn't stop.


I wouldn't laugh at him if it weren't for the cheating.

Also side note: many successful video games operate on the same principles as a slot machine.
 
2013-09-28 01:02:59 PM
The people i know who are 'working gamblers', in the same low level way one could be a 'working actor', have rules and profit, loss margins.

Everyday one has a 'bank' worth about 10 bets. If they lose their bank for the day, they quit. If they make their profit for the day, they quit. None of them are high rollers, but they work this as a decent job and make a decent living.
 
2013-09-28 01:03:17 PM
The reason this guy won $40 million was he did it in a real casino in the 70s. Binion would cover ANY bet. 
The corporate casino world doesn't do this kind of thing anymore. It's all about taking senior's retirement money a quarter at a time.

The only people that can take a casino is a whale that bets big, hits, and leaves. Supposedly some billionaire did just that. Came to a casino for a weekend. Won $50 million in a few hours & then got the fark out on his own jet. People that handle the whales lost their jobs for not keeping the guy around longer.
 
2013-09-28 01:03:24 PM
The funny thing is, marking his  poker cards would have made at least a little sense. The casino expects a certain number of players to consistently win at poker, and it doesn't really care which ones.

When they've taken adequate anti-counting measures, the casino NEVER expects anyone to consistently win at blackjack.

Oh well. By definition, if he were smarter, he either wouldn't be a gambler or he'd be a gambler we weren't talking about on Fark.
 
2013-09-28 01:03:38 PM

Wadded Beef: California Justice Department spokeswoman Michelle Gregory said Karas was doing the marking with dye inserted into a hollowed-out gambling chip that he would inconspicuously swipe over the cards while playing through a deck.

From my experience at blackjack, only the dealer touched ALL of the cards. At least I think that's what I remember. Am I off base?


Different casinos have different rules, and those rules have changed over time.  It used to be that players were also dealt one card face down, and players checked their hole card.  Some casinos even allowed players to hold their cards like in poker.

Some casinos you signal a hit by scraping your cards on the felt towards you, and a stay by sliding the cards under your chips.

Now, most casinos won't allow players to touch the cards at all, and can get really touchy about it if an old timer keeps touching them.  You typically now signal a hit by scratching your finger on the felt towards you, and a stay by waving your fingers over your cards in "these are not the cards I am hitting on" fashion.
 
2013-09-28 01:04:42 PM

I. R. Rottweiler: Sticky Hands: Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.

Interestingly enough similar statistics work against mutual fund managers

Anyway, why would he smudge blackjack cards?
Why not just count them?  Much less risky and then all they do is toss you out when they suspect it.

Most casinos use a shoe with multiple decks to prevent counting.


If you can count one deck, you can count an 8 deck shoe. The principle is entirely the same. It's really not anymore difficult to someone with the ability to count, it just changes the numbers. Formulaically, it changes nothing. It's a pretty vain attempt by the casinos.
 
2013-09-28 01:07:06 PM
Is that the one weird trick they tell me about in the banner ads?
 
2013-09-28 01:10:57 PM

Misconduc: mrlewish: So a crook stealing from other crooks?

This, I went to a casino for the first time few weeks ago, I went with $50 to lose and sure enough those $2 and $3 winners didn't last.

I play poker with friends for cash, we drop $20 and $1 from each player goes to buy fresh decks. We all rotate and 1 is the dealer, this curbs teams or anyone trying to cheat, in three years its been a hoot.
/we made our own table as well, took a cheap $20 table from Habitat and formed it into a poker table, with cup holders and all - it can seat 9 comfortably.



Got the blueprints for that table? I wouldn't mind making one, that sounds awesome!
 
2013-09-28 01:11:06 PM

BafflerMeal: The people i know who are 'working gamblers', in the same low level way one could be a 'working actor', have rules and profit, loss margins.

Everyday one has a 'bank' worth about 10 bets. If they lose their bank for the day, they quit. If they make their profit for the day, they quit. None of them are high rollers, but they work this as a decent job and make a decent living.


Friend of mine's dad got stuck in Nevada in the early 70s. He figured out that a crappy slot machine in a gas station would hit about every 75-100 plays. He hung around the place for months stocking shelves & cleaning while counting plays on the machine. 
Store didn't care because it was a free employee.
Cashier didn't care because he did 75% of their job. 
Customers didn't know, but finally the regulars got word of it and had him run off. By that time he had a few thousand dollars and came home.
 
2013-09-28 01:14:22 PM
Smackledorfer:

Delving one whole paragraph deeper:

He subsequently lost most of those winnings at baccarat and dice games in three weeks, according to Tom Sexton, who publishes the online gambling magazine Poker News. Karas returned to the poker table many times, often with backers, and cleaned out many of the best players in the world, according to Sexton.


Yes, but those winnings he earned with backers. So, he had to pay back the initial stake, plus a (I would imagine) hefty cut of the earnings; maybe 50% or more. Not a high-stakes player so I don't know what the usual backer's cut is.

Also, I posted in response to the assertion that Karas still had the $40 Million that made him a legend. Never said that he didn't go on to earn more, just that he gambled away those winnings.
 
2013-09-28 01:15:58 PM
So they can nail him for 8 thousand dollars, not the 40 million.  He pays a fine and most likely will get only probation if this is his first offense.  Actually, the article did not mention that the dye he was using was invisible to the naked eye and could only be seen through a special contact lens that he was wearing.  The idiots running the casino were too dam cheap to use a new set of cards every time they deal.
 
2013-09-28 01:37:42 PM

Mike_LowELL: MutantMotherMouse: /doesn't understand the thrill of gambling
//but $40M could change my mind

Because if you don't actually get pleasure from the act of playing and understanding the game itself, you need to inject a secondary compulsion into the process in order to make it interesting.


Much the same reason many fantasy football fanatics can't explain the difference between play-action and draw plays.
 
2013-09-28 01:39:11 PM

awalkingecho: I. R. Rottweiler: Sticky Hands: Smackledorfer: First, lol at this guy.  He had over 50 million and couldn't call it quits.

Second, not that there isn't some skill involved in various card games and other gambling (some games being only basic math knowledge, others being reading other players), anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that if you have hundreds of thousands of regular gamblers, a small percentage of them will by luck alone be high stakes winners. Yet nearly every person I see interviewed about poker or any other gambling speaks as though they have a special god-given talent one moment, despite often later in the same interview admitting they mostly just follow your basic poker algorithm.

Interestingly enough similar statistics work against mutual fund managers

Anyway, why would he smudge blackjack cards?
Why not just count them?  Much less risky and then all they do is toss you out when they suspect it.

Most casinos use a shoe with multiple decks to prevent counting.

If you can count one deck, you can count an 8 deck shoe. The principle is entirely the same. It's really not anymore difficult to someone with the ability to count, it just changes the numbers. Formulaically, it changes nothing. It's a pretty vain attempt by the casinos.


In Atlantic City, the casinos play a 6 or 8 deck shoe but only deal 2 decks before reshuffling, which makes counting fairly useless.  I've never understood why Vegas doesn't just do this rather than try to catch card counters...
 
FNG [TotalFark]
2013-09-28 01:39:59 PM
'THREAT TO THE GAMING INDUSTRY'

lol, now that's comedy gold
 
2013-09-28 01:48:32 PM
RoyFokker'sGhost: Also, I posted in response to the assertion that Karas still had the $40 Million that made him a legend. Never said that he didn't go on to earn more, just that he gambled away those winnings.

I was a dice dealer back in the early 90s at Binion's Horseshoe, it was the place he got on his truly insane run, at one point he was up about 28 million from our dice pit, and the bosses were flipping the F out watching his tables like a hawk for anything strange. Dealing with that much heat on the table to a guy betting 10k come bets with a 100k of odds spread out all over the table was something else, he would have over a half million on the table at a time quite often

You are correct, he blew every bit of that money and was actually sleeping in a POS car in the parking garage after his run ended, At that point i remember a pit boss telling how the only thing that guy had left of his cash was a house he bought for his mom or something like that.
 
2013-09-28 01:53:58 PM

namatad: Franko618: freak7: Wait, don't casinos only use a deck once to prevent this very thing?

     They use decks for a set period of time like 6 hours.  So if he starts when those decks go into play, he could have a few hours to accumulate wins, hence the low payout of 8k.

Wadded Beef: California Justice Department spokeswoman Michelle Gregory said Karas was doing the marking with dye inserted into a hollowed-out gambling chip that he would inconspicuously swipe over the cards while playing through a deck.

From my experience at blackjack, only the dealer touched ALL of the cards. At least I think that's what I remember. Am I off base?

     They have both, BJ where only the dealer touches the cards and BJ where the player may touch them as well.  The cards get inspected differently depending on which method of play was used.  At the places I'm familiar with if a game allows a player to touch the deck, ALL cards must be thoroughly inspected. If it's a dealer only game, only a certain percentage must be inspected.

could you use special dye which requires you to wear special glasses to see the die?

plus he won the big money playing power, but got caught playing BJ

meh, in the end, he is a cretin who pissed away stolen money by gambling


Yes, you could use special dye that can be seen with special glasses.  This could be a concern with his poker win, it could potentially be from the same style of cheating, but it doesn't seem that anyone is implying that just yet.
 
2013-09-28 01:54:43 PM

Gosling: Is that the one weird trick they tell me about in the banner ads?


No, I paid the money to find out and it's ass pennies.
 
FNG [TotalFark]
2013-09-28 01:55:49 PM
CSB: When I was in my early twenties the company where I worked organized a trip to Atlantic City. I brought $100 knowing that once it was gone, I was not going to an ATM, and at least there'd be plenty of free booze. Without breaking the $100 and using quarters from my dresser, I won $250 on my third pull of a slot machine.

Unfortunately, I also brought my girlfriend, who didn't know anyone and did nothing but gamble and drink. Every hour or so she'd say "I need more money" so I'd give her $50 of my winnings each time.

She lost every cent of the $250 I had won, in addition to any money she might have brought.

I got home with the original $100 I had planned to risk.

Now THAT'S the way you approach an encounter with a casino. You might want to leave the girl at home, though.
 
2013-09-28 01:59:18 PM
bionicjoe:Friend of mine's dad got stuck in Nevada in the early 70s. He figured out that a crappy slot machine in a gas station would hit about every 75-100 plays.

No
 
2013-09-28 02:00:22 PM

buzzcut73: So he's taken in $40 million, and is facing charges for $8k worth of theft, with a maximum of 3 years (and restitution on the $8k).
I'm going to call that a win.


Except for the part where it said he lost most of his winnings in 3 weeks.
 
2013-09-28 02:02:26 PM
phark the pharking casinos. If you can't cheat while you are there, they should be closed down. You Goddamn right.
 
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