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(ESPN)   David Ortiz ties the team record of a real man who never took steroids and gave up prime years to fight in two wars   (espn.go.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, David Ortiz, WBZ, steroids, Cal Ripken, Ted Williams, Red Sox, drive in, Sox  
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1606 clicks; posted to Sports » on 28 Sep 2013 at 1:39 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-28 08:12:05 AM  
*ties
 
2013-09-28 01:47:46 PM  
"You've seen Ted Williams and you've seen me," Ortiz joked to WBZ's Jonny Miller, the senior member of the Red Sox media corps. "Now you can die."

Yeah, thanks David. Now our lives are complete. You're a true hero.
 
2013-09-28 01:57:05 PM  
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/ 0 7/report_ortiz_ra.html

One of the worst fears of Red Sox fans has apparently become a reality.

David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, the charismatic and remarkably productive sluggers who helped lead the franchise to a pair of World Series titles this decade, were among the 104 players to test positive for performance-enhancing drugs during supposedly anonymous 2003 testing, according to a report in the New York Times this afternoon.

hmm...uh oh... 2003 + 2007 now should have * next to them :)
 
2013-09-28 02:01:48 PM  

Misconduc: hmm...uh oh... 2003 + 2007 now should have * next to them :)


Steroid use was, is, and will continue to be pervasive throughout the sport. Your favorite team has multiple people on it that are using. Certain people are thought of as "clean", but you will never know if they are due to MLB's woefully incomplete understanding of who is and is not using over the years.  Pretty much every year since the 1880s should have an asterisk next to it.
 
2013-09-28 02:14:10 PM  
1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.
 
2013-09-28 02:41:56 PM  
Here's a thought: If you're writing a story about a player reaching a combination of statistics, mention his statistics somewhere.

.308-30-103, according to the other source I had to check.
 
2013-09-28 02:45:10 PM  

balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.


Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.
 
2013-09-28 02:46:37 PM  

Cagey B: Misconduc: hmm...uh oh... 2003 + 2007 now should have * next to them :)

Steroid use was, is, and will continue to be pervasive throughout the sport. Your favorite team has multiple people on it that are using. Certain people are thought of as "clean", but you will never know if they are due to MLB's woefully incomplete understanding of who is and is not using over the years.  Pretty much every year since the 1880s should have an asterisk next to it.


I totally agree with your assessment, which is why it sickens me how the public targets specific players when it comes to usage. Andy Pettite, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi? Who cares, let them play for as long as they want. A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens? Get them out of the game now and throw them in jail!

Also lets completely forget about the huge list of fringe players/average players that used because they didn't become good enough to shoulder all the blame for the entire era.
 
2013-09-28 03:04:33 PM  

steamingpile: Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.


Ted Williams was a WWII pilot and played almost all of his career after he came back from the war.  Aside from that, there's a well-documented history of soldiers in that era that used amphetamines to stay alert. You don't think at least a few MLB players learned the effects firsthand and kept using afterwards?  It might not have been a focal point of conversation until the 70s, but I think it'd be incredibly naive to think nobody touched them for 25 years.
 
2013-09-28 03:16:48 PM  
Yeah, but how many kids did David Ortiz kill and leave orphans?
 
2013-09-28 03:21:00 PM  

balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.


they probably just sucked off a bull to get their taurine back in his day..
 
2013-09-28 03:36:59 PM  

steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.


In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.
 
2013-09-28 03:37:42 PM  

balki1867: steamingpile: Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

Ted Williams was a WWII pilot and played almost all of his career after he came back from the war.  Aside from that, there's a well-documented history of soldiers in that era that used amphetamines to stay alert. You don't think at least a few MLB players learned the effects firsthand and kept using afterwards?  It might not have been a focal point of conversation until the 70s, but I think it'd be incredibly naive to think nobody touched them for 25 years.


No they used what would classified as caffeine pills now which were not very strong about like drinking 2-3 cups of coffee at once.

None of the other compounds were tweaked or perfected until after the mid 70s, cocaine was better to use since you got a constant response.
 
2013-09-28 03:48:12 PM  

vladimpaler: steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.


Yes and as stated in other threads they are not what you know as adderral and such now, they were much weaker and did not zone you into what you were doing. They are like night and day in comparison.
 
2013-09-28 03:48:56 PM  
"You've seen Ted Williams and you've seen me We will destroy Gotham and then, when it is done and Gotham is ashes," Ortiz joked to WBZ's Jonny Miller, the senior member of the Red Sox media corps. "Now you can Then you have my permission to die."

I'm easily amused
 
2013-09-28 03:49:10 PM  
Go Papi!
 
2013-09-28 03:51:36 PM  
Misconduc:

hmm...uh oh... 2003 + 2007 now should have * next to them :)

You're going to need a new * key on your keyboard from mashing it so much.  Heck, just getting through the Yankees teams of 90's-00's you need 5 for their titles, and a couple hundred more for their players.
 
2013-09-28 04:05:50 PM  

vladimpaler: steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.


I completely agree with you. DHs are not real baseball players and do not belong in the baseball hall of fame.
 
2013-09-28 04:20:14 PM  

CipollinaFan: vladimpaler: steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.

I completely agree with you. DHs are not real baseball players and do not belong in the baseball hall of fame.


They have about the same impact on a game that closers do.
 
2013-09-28 04:30:47 PM  
My favorite are the Boston fans who claim Ortiz tested positive for a non-banned supplement, was a false positive or tested positive due to a "vitamin", which makes me laugh so hard at how retarded they are.
 
2013-09-28 05:04:31 PM  
And here's something Ortiz has done that Williams didn't: At 37, he became the first Sox player ever, and the seventh in baseball history, to hit at least .300, with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more RBIs.

Is this a really terribly written way of saying he was the first age-37 Red Sox player, and the seventh age-37 player ever, to go .300-30-100?  I had to read this paragraph about five times, thinking something was obviously wrong.
 
2013-09-28 06:13:07 PM  

steamingpile: vladimpaler: steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.

Yes and as stated in other threads they are not what you know as adderral and such now, they were much weaker and did not zone you into what you were doing. They are like night and day in comparison.


So wait, your argument is that players of that era are innocent because pharmaceutical science was not advanced enough to make their efforts to use drugs to obtain a competitive advantage as effective as those of modern players?
 
2013-09-28 06:48:32 PM  
YAY! Red Sox Hater Thread!

/Game @ 7:05
//And October 4
 
2013-09-28 06:58:45 PM  
fc01.deviantart.net
 
2013-09-28 07:26:54 PM  

Lost Thought 00: They have about the same impact on a game that closers do.


DHs are considerably more important than guys who pitch one inning (and not necessarily in the highest-leverage way... for example, rarely during late-inning ties) every three days.

Even with the crazy year Koji Uehara had, he's at +3.3 WAR.  Most good closers add about two wins per season to their club.

WAR penalizes DHs for contributing zero defense, but Ortiz is still at +3.9 this year.  In his best year, he was worth more than 6 wins to the Sox.

Put a different way, modern closers face ~250 batters (Uehara: 261) per year, but Ortiz participates in ~600 plate appearances, so he has a lot more opportunities to change baseball games.
 
2013-09-28 07:39:27 PM  

coolio mack: Also lets completely forget about the huge list of fringe players/average players that used because they didn't become good enough to shoulder all the blame for the entire era.


That's actually the tragic part of the whole PED story to me.  Someone like A-Rod (assuming the allegations are proven, which seems likely) made hundreds of millions of dollars, in part due to use of PEDs.  So if his long-term health is impacted, he'll have every resource to cope with it.  And let's face it, a lot of people would trade some late-life quality of years to be a famous multi-millionaire by age 30.

But for every A-Rod, there are thousands of people who used in high school, college, or the minors, and never signed an MLB contract.  If they end up with an enlarged heart, a stroke in their 30s, or whatever, they're as hosed as anyone else.  And a lot of these guys essentially bet everything on a baseball career, and don't necessarily have great career prospects once reality hits them.
 
2013-09-28 08:30:53 PM  
I thought it was a new batting coach after he came from the Twins. Yeah. That's the ticket. New batting coach.

Ahhh... the innocence of 2005. Remember when you Sawx fans thought your team was clean and heroic? When Ortiz had that mysterious medical issue at NEMC, and nobody put two and two together?

Yeah...that was cool.

Choose your *s.
 
2013-09-28 11:48:06 PM  

balki1867: Ted Williams was a WWII pilot and played almost all of his career after he came back from the war.


Don't forget, he also lost almost two entire seasons in 1952-53 to the Korean War. Ted was a war hero.
 
2013-09-29 01:42:23 PM  

TheMatchHare: steamingpile: vladimpaler: steamingpile: balki1867: 1) Subby's title makes more sense if he'd set a career mark, but this was a seasonal mark, so the height of the steroid years has no bearing on what he's doing today.

2) How do you know Ted Williams never took any PEDs?  Theres a long history of guys in every sport taking all kinds of stuff to get a real/perceived edge.  And they didn't test back then.

Ahhhh here we go, never mind that steroids weren't even used for performance until after WWII and east Germany then not even used for much other than strength events until the late 70s. Hell everybody screams amphetamines but those were not exact until the late 70s as well.

In Ball Four, his diary of the 1969 baseball season, Jim Bouton mentions amphetamine ("greenies") usage.  He and his teammates estimated that over half the league was using them.  They mentioned the Orioles, the Tigers, and the Pilots (their own team) with having almost all their players using.

Jerry Coleman, former player and broadcaster, used amphetamines in 1957 with the Yankees.

They were out there to be used.


That being said, David Ortiz is a cheater and a DH who should never be elected to the Hall of Fame.

Yes and as stated in other threads they are not what you know as adderral and such now, they were much weaker and did not zone you into what you were doing. They are like night and day in comparison.

So wait, your argument is that players of that era are innocent because pharmaceutical science was not advanced enough to make their efforts to use drugs to obtain a competitive advantage as effective as those of modern players?


No what I'm saying is what you refer to as "speed" would be more accurately described as 'pep' pills you could find in any gas station today. Basically just a massive dose of caffeine until the 70s and the formulations were so off they could fark up a player more than help.

You have to remember that doctors were the ones giving them these pills as cures for being hungover not because it was believed to be performance enhancing. You are all equating what's available now with what was available then and its just not close, like how PCs used to take up a whole room and now fit in a small cube. To say there is not a difference is just being ignorant on the subject but then I expect no less from the internet and especially fark.
 
2013-09-29 06:30:39 PM  

steamingpile: No what I'm saying is what you refer to as "speed" would be more accurately described as 'pep' pills you could find in any gas station today. Basically just a massive dose of caffeine until the 70s and the formulations were so off they could fark up a player more than help.

You have to remember that doctors were the ones giving them these pills as cures for being hungover not because it was believed to be performance enhancing. You are all equating what's available now with what was available then and its just not close, like how PCs used to take up a whole room and now fit in a small cube. To say there is not a difference is just being ignorant on the subject but then I expect no less from the internet and especially fark.


If you're right on that (and I'll confess I don't know one way or the other), that seems reasonable.   My athletic career basically topped out in high school and the drugs on our teams was of a completely different nature... :)
 
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