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(KSPR Springfield)   Hysterically screaming at an EMT to save your daughter? That's a pepper spraying and arrest   (kspr.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, EMT, Joplin, daughter died  
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7460 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Sep 2013 at 5:57 AM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



156 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-09-28 12:19:48 AM
When police aren't scared they do whatever the fark they want

Nothing will happen to the officer that did this
 
2013-09-28 12:26:55 AM
The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.
 
2013-09-28 12:28:15 AM
He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.
 
2013-09-28 12:47:30 AM

fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.


It would be, if Dad didn't have you by the shirt collar.
 
2013-09-28 02:53:13 AM

fusillade762: Seems like "Keeping Unconscious

dead Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.
 
2013-09-28 03:10:43 AM

cman: When police aren't scared they do whatever the fark they want

Nothing will happen to the officer that did this


"He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.
 
2013-09-28 03:17:16 AM

mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.


convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.
 
2013-09-28 03:19:29 AM

log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.


PROBABLY. It's interesting that they were able to IMMEDIATELY decide that without even questioning the dad and son.

Probably, likely, just based on this article. Well that sounds convincing as well!
 
2013-09-28 03:22:57 AM
Screaming hysterical people are not likely to help any given situation, and should be tased repeatedly in the scrotal regions until reason prevails.
 
2013-09-28 03:28:27 AM

mediablitz:  It's interesting that they were able to IMMEDIATELY decide that without even questioning the dad and son.


heh. yes. you need to question everyone before you know there is a disturbance taking place. of course.


you find that interesting. what I find interesting is that the body "just fell" off the gurney. and it was before the police showed up.

so yeah...the guy was "just screaming". uh huh.
 
2013-09-28 03:32:25 AM
I think cops should be pepper-sprayed and tased once a month just so they remember how it feels. And shot once a year in a non-critical body part. Like the head.
 
2013-09-28 03:38:06 AM
same guy a few years earlier wrestling with an accused car thief and he managed to not get sprayed or tased.
 
2013-09-28 05:59:28 AM
I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow
 
2013-09-28 05:59:30 AM
Woooooo! Cop hate thread.
 
2013-09-28 06:08:07 AM

From a comment on the article: "Why on earth would a prosecutor not dismiss the charges once both sides of the story were fleshed out?"


Because the father could sue if the charges and/or the officers actions were unreasonable. The prosecutor will use the certainty of a ruinously expensive trial and the possibility of a wrongful conviction in an attempt to extort a plea. Duh...

 
2013-09-28 06:08:54 AM

robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow


When I need someone to show up in a while and fill out a report, I call the police. They have their uses.
 
2013-09-28 06:09:10 AM

crab66: Woooooo! Cop hate thread.


Hey, you got in before anyone asked how many dogs they killed.
 
2013-09-28 06:13:10 AM
Prosecutors offered Russell a deal: plead guilty to assault and take anger management classes, but he says that would be admitting he did something wrong, and he insists all he did was scream.

Was he screaming when they offered the deal?
 
2013-09-28 06:15:15 AM
EMT's really can't do a very good job when they are being assaulted.

/just sayin.
 
2013-09-28 06:17:22 AM
Prosecutors offered Russell a deal: plead guilty to assault and take anger management classes, but he says that would be admitting he did something wrong, and he insists all he did was scream.

Guy was offered an easy way out and he didnt take it, but the cop apologist pile on in this thread right from the start.  This guy is farked, his family is farked.  Hell his other kid is going to prison probably along with him.

Once again its pretty obvious.  There is no loving god, there is no karmic balance.  This is just a shiat covered mudball spinning through a chaotic universe of pain and suffering, while we wait for the sweet release of death.

crab66: Woooooo! Cop hate thread.


I suppose it is appropriate for you to cheer and scream when your side will always win.
 
2013-09-28 06:18:14 AM
The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.
 
2013-09-28 06:18:29 AM
You mean a cop had a reason to pepper spray someone this time?  What a world we live in!
 
2013-09-28 06:22:12 AM

robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow


Do you spend a lot of time imagining what the "bad people" think?
That's unwholesome thinking, you know.
 
2013-09-28 06:24:43 AM

mediablitz: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

PROBABLY. It's interesting that they were able to IMMEDIATELY decide that without even questioning the dad and son.

Probably, likely, just based on this article. Well that sounds convincing as well!


Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...
 
2013-09-28 06:25:17 AM

orclover: Hell his other kid is going to prison probably along with him.


how did you come to that conclusion?
 
2013-09-28 06:33:07 AM

orclover: Prosecutors offered Russell a deal: plead guilty to assault and take anger management classes, but he says that would be admitting he did something wrong, and he insists all he did was scream.

Guy was offered an easy way out and he didnt take it, but the cop apologist pile on in this thread right from the start.  This guy is farked, his family is farked.  Hell his other kid is going to prison probably along with him.

Once again its pretty obvious.  There is no loving god, there is no karmic balance.  This is just a shiat covered mudball spinning through a chaotic universe of pain and suffering, while we wait for the sweet release of death.

crab66: Woooooo! Cop hate thread.

I suppose it is appropriate for you to cheer and scream when your side will always win.


Are you available for children's parties?
 
2013-09-28 06:33:16 AM

IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...


The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.
 
2013-09-28 06:37:39 AM
There isn't enough independent information in this crappy excuse for an article to form any kind of opinion except that the author is a lazy coont.
 
2013-09-28 06:43:34 AM
It would have been so much classier if the EMTs pulled the girl by her hair and dragged her to the curb.
 
2013-09-28 06:45:14 AM

red5ish: There isn't enough independent information in this crappy excuse for an article to form any kind of opinion except that the author is a lazy coont.


It's not that the writer is necessarily lazy, it's just that without a police report there is only his side to go on, and apart for "we put her in the ambulance...then backed away" he doesn't give any real details.

My son and I placed my daughter in the ambulance and backed away.

we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself
...
At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away


My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.
 
2013-09-28 06:59:19 AM
 

fluffy2097: IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...

The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.


And so, since she was dead, they pepper-sprayed a grieving hysterical father  - for what? Interfering with their treatment of a dead girl? Nothing else would have sufficed, huh? No sympathy for the guy? No hugs, two guys don't just grab him and neutralize him, nothing would do except a pepper spraying? Well, I guess it's better than the lethal beatings cops hand out sometimes for people screaming, or looking at them wrong.
 
2013-09-28 06:59:21 AM
Guy's lucky he's white. If he were black the pigs would have massacred the whole family, and their pitbull.
 
2013-09-28 06:59:48 AM
I was an EMT for 6 years...and I have been in a similar situation...gsw to the head...when you show up to a scene like that you just know there isn't anything you can do. Its very sad for us responding because we know its a lost cause 99% of the time.
You see the horror and shock in the families eyes....the hope and desperation you are going to make her ok, and you feel that pit in your stomach in knowing its not going to end that way. But you fall on your experience and training and do what you can.
However...the families are the biggest obstruction. They are scared and hysterical and sometimes do scream at you to do something. And in this state they do exactly everything you expect a greiving human to do....and get right in the way and impede the people trying to help.
Its always a huge clusterfark of emotion.
I imagine the EMT tried to get them out of the way and did what they could.
 
2013-09-28 07:07:24 AM

cman: When police aren't scared they do whatever the fark they want

Nothing will happen to the officer that did this


Anyone who interferes with any government employee ought to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and the penalty should be harsh. Our civil servants should be beyond reproach. There's no need for an investigation. If the EMT and officer say it happened like that, well, that's what happened. End of story. Nothing to see here. Move along.
 
2013-09-28 07:10:51 AM

fluffy2097: /she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.


log_jammin: My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.


farkers always know exactly how any how any incident occured...too bad they aren't rolling in money since they are prescient
 
2013-09-28 07:12:24 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: I think cops should be pepper-sprayed and tased once a month just so they remember how it feels. And shot once a year in a non-critical body part. Like the head.


There is a thought, if a cop pepper sprays someone he gets taken out behind the station and pepper sprayed. Just to make sure that cop has the right priorities.

Either way the idea pepper spray is an alternative to a gun is a lie.  The reality is it's an alternative to a night stick or a good talking to, depending on the cop and who his police chief is.

My gut says, 80% chance cops filed charges because they used excessive force and they know it. Lot of places they'd would have been taken down to the station, their eyes washed out, booted out to the curb, and the arrest wouldn't make it into the computer.
 
2013-09-28 07:23:24 AM

cajunns: fluffy2097: /she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.

log_jammin: My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.

farkers always know exactly how any how any incident occured...too bad they aren't rolling in money since they are prescient


I never said I knew what I happened. I said "My feeling is". can you read?
 
2013-09-28 07:24:52 AM

ghare: And so, since she was dead, they pepper-sprayed a grieving hysterical father - for what? Interfering with their treatment of a dead girl? Nothing else would have sufficed, huh? No sympathy for the guy? No hugs, two guys don't just grab him and neutralize him, nothing would do except a pepper spraying? Well, I guess it's better than the lethal beatings cops hand out sometimes for people screaming, or looking at them wrong.


You've never dealt with a hysterical person who want's to kill an EMT because their daughter is dead and there is nothing the EMT can do.

/grief is like PCP. People get hard to stop on it.
 
2013-09-28 07:25:46 AM

gibbon1: Lot of places they'd would have been taken down to the station, their eyes washed out, booted out to the curb, and the arrest wouldn't make it into the computer.


I get the feeling this is what should have happened...even if he was interfering, the guy was looking at his dead daughter, and lost his mind temporarily. No need for an actual arrest.

However, the arrest was probably a CYA move to protect against the guy suing later on, saying "I wasn't doing anything wrong, they obviously didn't arrest me or anything, so gimme a million dollars".
 
2013-09-28 07:27:56 AM

unamused: fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.

It would be, if Dad didn't have you by the shirt collar.


please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.
 
2013-09-28 07:30:25 AM
Anyone who reads this article and comes away thinking they have enough information to form a strong opinion about what probably happened is a moron.
 
2013-09-28 07:31:07 AM

fluffy2097: EMT's really can't do a very good job when they are being assaulted.

/just sayin.


funny, I don't recall a physical attack on anyone except the father and son... can you point out what I missed?
 
2013-09-28 07:31:07 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.


the part were he says he was arrested for assault.
 
2013-09-28 07:34:10 AM
They found her in a park, so what about the firearm that she used?  EMTs don't just accept bodies with gunshot wounds then turn around and rush to the hospital, they do need to know something about what happened.   Impeding an EMT in the line of duty, especially in a threatening manner is a felony.

Basically, the EMTs and cops are concerned about the person who has been shot, but especially the cops aren't going to just blindly accept the story that she shot herself. So two hysterical men dump a girl with a gunshot wound to the head on a cot, yeah, precautions are going to be taken, and it's likely that when the PD does finally release its official side of events, it'll include acting in the interest of the safety of the EMTs and officers on scene.  Maybe the fate of the gun will also be disclosed.

/grabs some popcorn
 
2013-09-28 07:35:49 AM

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.

the part were he says he was arrested for assault.


Once physical contact is made, it's considered battery.
 
2013-09-28 07:36:08 AM

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.

the part were he says he was arrested for assault.


aaaah, so your supposition is that police are always honest and never fudge the facts... good luck with that.
 
2013-09-28 07:38:34 AM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


unamused: fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.

It would be, if Dad didn't have you by the shirt collar.


From how little the article goes into detail regarding the police/EMT side of the story I will withhold my outrage.

Sounds to me that IF there had been a chance to save the girl, the Father and Son screwed it up with their hysterics.
 
2013-09-28 07:41:25 AM

Semantic Warrior: log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.

the part were he says he was arrested for assault.

Once physical contact is made, it's considered battery.


I think you need to update your dictionary:

as·sault əˈsôlt/
verb: assault;3rd person present: assaults;past tense: assaulted;past participle: assaulted;gerund or present participle: assaulting
1. make a physical attack on.

This is why a person is typically charged with assault and battery, not just assault... because police need to update their dictionaries too apparently, as they define assault as any verbal content where volume is above a whisper.

NOTE: Battery (legal definition) is almost identical to assault's definition above with the exception of tort being used. MMMM tort... I love a good chocolate torte.
 
2013-09-28 07:42:17 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: aaaah, so your supposition is that police are always honest and never fudge the facts... good luck with that.


Not at all.

But your supposition seems to be that persons accused of a crime are always honest and never fudge the facts.

Semantic Warrior: Once physical contact is made, it's considered battery.


in my state assault is "Assault is intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm."

they don't have to drop one charge for the other.
 
2013-09-28 07:43:03 AM

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: please point to the place in the article where it says he touched anyone. thanks.

the part were he says he was arrested for assault.


assault doesn't always mean touched. that's battery. in the missouri statute it also includes " attempted to" in the actual assault definition.
 
2013-09-28 07:45:22 AM

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: assault doesn't always mean touched. that's battery. in the missouri statute it also includes " attempted to" in the actual assault definition.


I understand this.
 
2013-09-28 07:46:41 AM

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: aaaah, so your supposition is that police are always honest and never fudge the facts... good luck with that.

Not at all.

But your supposition seems to be that persons accused of a crime are always honest and never fudge the facts.


nope, but I tend not to believe the police anymore.. by default. How many more abuses of police power do you need to see all over the country till you realize they are not your friends, and would turn in their own mothers if they downloaded a song on the internet? Cops tend to have a moral superiority complex as well as an almost megalomanical need to show they are superior in every other way by throwing their dicks around and spraying everywhere just like a wild animal. This NEVER used to be the case till we started militarizing the police, and now we are farked. So, yes, I will tend to believe the victim over the police till proven otherwise. The police have turned into the largest and most powerful street gang in the country.
 
2013-09-28 07:59:01 AM
Well I hope their dead daughter is happy. Not only did she kill herself, but she also got her father and brother arrested. Selfish biatch.
 
2013-09-28 08:00:04 AM
 
"What I'll tell you is that the conduct that's alleged is directly contradictory to our values, our mission statement, our code of ethics," the chief said.


And therein lies the problem, you fark.
Of course a cop acting like an asshole is contradictory to what he is *supposed* to be doing. Sure doesn't stop it from happening though.
 
2013-09-28 08:10:03 AM
Say it with me boys & girls:


jury nullification
 
2013-09-28 08:10:06 AM
"Get up or I will render you unable to get up"
Yeah, that makes farking sense. A taser is not supposed to be a 'obey all my commands or else" device. It is a less lethal alternative to removing a threat. You got a guy that is very agressive guy walking toward you and won't stop? That's what a taser is for. You got a guy that is a threat that is not immediatly harming anyone, but you can't safely approach? That's what a taser is for. You got a guy running from you and your fat ass can't keep up? taser.

A guy you've already used a 'compliance device' on, who is on the ground unable to do anything? That's when you just walk up and slap on cuffs if you feel he might be so damn dangerous. Hell, if you are so damn adament that he stand up, use a pain compiance hold, or you know, just grab and lift. Are you gonna bean bag him because he won't get up while being tased as well?
 
2013-09-28 08:10:32 AM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


ah yes, the completely impartial investigation into the officers actions. i'm sure it will be completely fair and not at all biased.
 
2013-09-28 08:13:10 AM

ghare: And so, since she was dead, they pepper-sprayed a grieving hysterical father  - for what? Interfering with their treatment of a dead girl? Nothing else would have sufficed, huh? No sympathy for the guy? No hugs, two guys don't just grab him and neutralize him, nothing would do except a pepper spraying? Well, I guess it's better than the lethal beatings cops hand out sometimes for people screaming, or looking at them wrong.


This.  In D&D terms, I'd rather have neutral good cops than lawful neutral ones.
 
2013-09-28 08:14:01 AM
If you become violent you may be arrested. How is this news?
 
2013-09-28 08:14:19 AM
Why wasn't the firearm and the bullets locked up separately?

/ walks away to go get popcorn
 
2013-09-28 08:17:13 AM

spidermann: Say it with me boys & girls:


jury nullification


Except that the court *really* hates that. I think they ask you now if you believe in that, and if you say yes, they kick you off the jury pool (got jury duty coming up next month. yeah.) And they (From what I've heard) ask you under oath, so if you lie and say you don't agree with it, and then push for that, they can get you with prejury

.

Cagey B: Screaming hysterical people are not likely to help any given situation, and should be tased repeatedly in the scrotal regions until reason prevails.


Whenever I get stressed, I find nothing calms me down like a good shot of voltage to the nuts. I call it "Blue crackling calm down juice"
 
2013-09-28 08:28:04 AM

fluffy2097: IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...

The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.


Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.
 
2013-09-28 08:29:45 AM

MythDragon: Except that the court *really* hates that.


They can hate it all they want. Still part of the law and the process.

MythDragon: I think they ask you now if you believe in that, and if you say yes, they kick you off the jury pool (got jury duty coming up next month. yeah.) And they (From what I've heard) ask you under oath, so if you lie and say you don't agree with it, and then push for that, they can get you with prejury


Nullifying jury nullification. Nothing like ruining the process of law just because your panties are twisted that, omg, regular citizens have an ounce of power. Nothing quite like making a criminal out of a peer because you don't like the law you're sworn to uphold.

/I know most judges these days don't even instruct that it's an option for juries
//and I get it, all of it
///the above is so sarcastic because it blows my mind how farked our legal system is yet is still held up as virtuous
 
2013-09-28 08:31:01 AM

fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.


Actually, EMT 101 is "scene safety".   And if it's not safe, I stop what I'm doing until it is safe.   That includes any kind of assault.   I've been on several calls recently where police had to intervene and  make sure that happened.
 
2013-09-28 08:31:53 AM
Yeah, I have to side with the police here. Young woman found shot in a park and two screaming lunatics. First and foremost, these two were helping no one and nothing. Obviously they had their reasons to believe it was a suicide, but the EMT and cop just arriving at the scene? ... the shooter could have been easily been one of the aggressive guys on the scene. The dad even says the EMT had turned and asked him what happened when he was screaming at the EMT to do his f'ing job. Next up he sees son getting sprayed and taken down to the ground.

With all that said, it may be the decent thing to drop all the charges. If I found my kid dead, I probably wouldn't be the best conversationist at the moment.
 
2013-09-28 08:32:35 AM

gibbon1: ecmoRandomNumbers: I think cops should be pepper-sprayed and tased once a month just so they remember how it feels. And shot once a year in a non-critical body part. Like the head.

There is a thought, if a cop pepper sprays someone he gets taken out behind the station and pepper sprayed. Just to make sure that cop has the right priorities.

Either way the idea pepper spray is an alternative to a gun is a lie.  The reality is it's an alternative to a night stick or a good talking to, depending on the cop and who his police chief is.

My gut says, 80% chance cops filed charges because they used excessive force and they know it. Lot of places they'd would have been taken down to the station, their eyes washed out, booted out to the curb, and the arrest wouldn't make it into the computer.


Exactly.

When I was a young POS, I mouthed off to a cop. He smacked me in the head 3 times before I could blink and told me in no uncertain terms that he was in charge and I needed to STFD and STFU. Today, I'd probably have been arrested, charged with interference, resisting, and attempt to influence a public servant; and my life ruined. As it is, I learned a very valuable lesson: The only things you say to a cop are "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to leave?"
 
2013-09-28 08:33:47 AM

bborchar: fluffy2097: IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...

The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.

Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.


*baseless

/farking mobile
 
2013-09-28 08:34:48 AM

robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow


I've managed to avoid calling 911my entire life. And no cop has EVER intervened on my behalf. Ever. No matter the situation. It has been my experience in my 50 years that any time the police come around, things get exponentially worse. For everyone involved.
I have never seen a time that a cop has resolved or helped resolve anything without making someone's life miserable unnecessarily.
The only time police should be called is when you need a police report for insurance purposes.
And then only after having that argument with your insurance co.
 
2013-09-28 08:48:56 AM
This is why I just stay at home and watch TV....when my daughter is attempting suicide.

I'd just get in the way of everyone involved.
 
2013-09-28 08:49:58 AM
The cop in this case, and any similar case has essentially two options

1: Do nothing and let the assault continue

2: Stop the assault with some form of physical intervention. That can be anything from a physical on the ground fight, baton, taster, spray even firearms.

People who get up in arms about police using pepper spray seem to forget that it's the  least harmful out of any of those options. Tasers pierce the skin. Batons and fighting are worse as they often involve blunt force trauma on both the subject and the officer. So instead of one guy crying for an hour and having to wash his face, you have 2 guys in the emergency room with lacerations, broken bones and maybe head trauma.

So many people seem to want to go back to the days before police had tasers and spray. And those people don't know history. Back then blackjacks and sap gloves were issued to officers and continued the norm. Beating a person unconscious was just part of the job. It was either that or shoot them. Injuries to both the officer  and the subject have gone down since tasers and spray became widely used.
 
2013-09-28 08:53:15 AM
FTA: "What I'll tell you is that the conduct that's alleged is directly contradictory to our values, our mission statement, our code of ethics," the chief said. "Those are not the things we engage in."

LOL is he a cop or a comedian?!

And, why the fark are police departments allowed to investigate themselves?? Of course they're not going to find anything wrong. They never do.
 
2013-09-28 08:56:33 AM

fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.


i.huffpost.com

Begs to differ.


If my daughter/son/loved one was laying on the ground hovering  between life and death I would be SCREAMING too. And If my daughter/son/loved fell off the gurney for ANY reason I would also encourage that EMT to do his farking job.

Poor EMT, under duress.

And fark the police
 
2013-09-28 09:02:20 AM

fluffy2097: IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...

The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.


So you fantasize about molesting your kids?
 
2013-09-28 09:06:41 AM

log_jammin: red5ish: There isn't enough independent information in this crappy excuse for an article to form any kind of opinion except that the author is a lazy coont.

It's not that the writer is necessarily lazy, it's just that without a police report there is only his side to go on, and apart for "we put her in the ambulance...then backed away" he doesn't give any real details.

My son and I placed my daughter in the ambulance and backed away.

we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself
...
At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away


My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.


"Your feeling"?? Well, holy shiat it's solved then!!
 
2013-09-28 09:09:14 AM
So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.
 
2013-09-28 09:16:02 AM

blacksho89: When I was a young POS, I mouthed off to a cop. He smacked me in the head 3 times before I could blink and told me in no uncertain terms that he was in charge and I needed to STFD and STFU. Today, I'd probably have been arrested, charged with interference, resisting, and attempt to influence a public servant; and my life ruined. As it is, I learned a very valuable lesson: The only things you say to a cop are "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to leave?"


Except that mouthing off to a cop isn't a crime. If you go up to one and cause interferince, then sure. If he's trying to arrest someone else or invesitage something, and you go over and get in his business, then a little pepper to the face is in order. If you are out walking your dogs at 2am because you were up and felt like walking your dogs, and a cop rolls by and asks why you were walking your dogs at 2am, and you tell him it's because you are on the way back from porking his mom, he's got no grounds. Hell, even if he's got you stopped for speeding and you decide to get a little lippy and ask if this is making him late for the station locker room dick sucking contest, he has no right to tase/spray/beat/shoot you. Sure it really doesn't help when you go to court, since judges don't look favorably on people who are assholes to cops, but it doesn't mean the cop gets to play the role of the Punisher.

Cops are there to enforce the law. Not enforce their sensitive feelings when their women's underwear gets all twisted up. Of course you *shouldn't* mouth off to a cop, since it well never result in anything good, but neither should it net you an ass kicking.
 
2013-09-28 09:24:48 AM

Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.


If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


1.bp.blogspot.com

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!
 
2013-09-28 09:25:09 AM

MythDragon: blacksho89: When I was a young POS, I mouthed off to a cop. He smacked me in the head 3 times before I could blink and told me in no uncertain terms that he was in charge and I needed to STFD and STFU. Today, I'd probably have been arrested, charged with interference, resisting, and attempt to influence a public servant; and my life ruined. As it is, I learned a very valuable lesson: The only things you say to a cop are "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to leave?"

Except that mouthing off to a cop isn't a crime. If you go up to one and cause interferince, then sure. If he's trying to arrest someone else or invesitage something, and you go over and get in his business, then a little pepper to the face is in order. If you are out walking your dogs at 2am because you were up and felt like walking your dogs, and a cop rolls by and asks why you were walking your dogs at 2am, and you tell him it's because you are on the way back from porking his mom, he's got no grounds. Hell, even if he's got you stopped for speeding and you decide to get a little lippy and ask if this is making him late for the station locker room dick sucking contest, he has no right to tase/spray/beat/shoot you. Sure it really doesn't help when you go to court, since judges don't look favorably on people who are assholes to cops, but it doesn't mean the cop gets to play the role of the Punisher.

Cops are there to enforce the law. Not enforce their sensitive feelings when their women's underwear gets all twisted up. Of course you *shouldn't* mouth off to a cop, since it well never result in anything good, but neither should it net you an ass kicking.


For someone so very sensitive to your rights, it's a bit sad to see you're a misogynist.
 
2013-09-28 09:26:03 AM

log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.




I wish I could write my own rules.
 
2013-09-28 09:30:42 AM
There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.
 
2013-09-28 09:30:58 AM
When I march on King's Landing, my army will spring from a curated list of the coldest, hardest badasses Fark forums can offer. I will take my dragons to your homes, and kill both your firstborn and all your bastards before your eyes to test your ability to think and act rationally in the face of horrifying blood and grief. Those who fail will not gain entrance into my army, but your lives will be spared. Your nipples will be removed, however, as punishment for being full-of-shiat ITGs. The rest will march, and Westeros will be MINE.

/Psychopathic T. sends his regards.
//stab
 
2013-09-28 09:31:08 AM

Eve L. Koont: log_jammin: red5ish: There isn't enough independent information in this crappy excuse for an article to form any kind of opinion except that the author is a lazy coont.

It's not that the writer is necessarily lazy, it's just that without a police report there is only his side to go on, and apart for "we put her in the ambulance...then backed away" he doesn't give any real details.

My son and I placed my daughter in the ambulance and backed away.

we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself
...
At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away


My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.

"Your feeling"?? Well, holy shiat it's solved then!!


It's entirely possible that the father's panicked, unwitting interference led to his daughter falling off the gurney. And this entire thread is basically speculation, since there is incomplete information. So what.
 
2013-09-28 09:40:39 AM

MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.


There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.
 
2013-09-28 09:41:39 AM

JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.

If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


[1.bp.blogspot.com image 450x247]

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!


When you work a high stress job, you learn to pay attention to your surroundings.  It's not only medically necessary to ask "what happened" it's also a good survival technique.  I hope you're not suggesting the EMT is somehow cowardly for not showing a basic sense of self preservation.  It's never wise to turn your back on a person who is screaming at you.
 
2013-09-28 09:42:15 AM

someonelse: Eve L. Koont: log_jammin: red5ish: There isn't enough independent information in this crappy excuse for an article to form any kind of opinion except that the author is a lazy coont.

It's not that the writer is necessarily lazy, it's just that without a police report there is only his side to go on, and apart for "we put her in the ambulance...then backed away" he doesn't give any real details.

My son and I placed my daughter in the ambulance and backed away.

we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself
...
At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away


My feeling is that he did not "back away" as he says he did.

"Your feeling"?? Well, holy shiat it's solved then!!

It's entirely possible that the father's panicked, unwitting interference led to his daughter falling off the gurney. And this entire thread is basically speculation, since there is incomplete information. So what.




So what? Emotion is a stake here.
 
2013-09-28 09:44:59 AM
Hey, this is Joplin. Just sayin'.
 
2013-09-28 09:45:32 AM
FTFA: "If you Google our names you see our arrest record, and I want that to go away, that's what I want," he said."

HAHAHAHAHA!

Welcome to the Internet, sir. Jennifer Lopez would like to have a word with you.
 
2013-09-28 09:46:23 AM

psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.


Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.
 
2013-09-28 09:48:21 AM
I have no problem with the pepper spray and initial arrest, but for farks sake just drop the charges afterwards. People often aren't in their right mind when they see their sister/daughter with her brains leaking out.
 
2013-09-28 09:48:45 AM

JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.

If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


[1.bp.blogspot.com image 450x247]

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!


I know a couple of people who work at the post office. It's not a fun job. Because of pressure on gov't jobs, they are constantly watched, measured, having their hours cut. Getting work-related health problems and not being able to take much time off. carriers are often given shiatty vehicles to drive that don't have working heaters and no AC.

\just sayin'
 
2013-09-28 09:51:27 AM
The greatest barrier to patient care is the family. People need to recognize that just because we are not panicking doesn't mean we don't care ad aren't doing our job. Often there are thinngs that we need to do at the scene before we initiate transport. We are able to do everything in the back of that ambulance that can be done in the hospital, short of surgery.
He likely helped facilitate her death by not calling 911 immediately. I am sorry for his loss, but I'm sure he's not telling the whole story.
 
2013-09-28 09:53:17 AM

Ritley: I have no problem with the pepper spray and initial arrest, but for farks sake just drop the charges afterwards. People often aren't in their right mind when they see their sister/daughter with her brains leaking out.


This I can agree with.
 
2013-09-28 09:54:10 AM
The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.  They loaded her in their car and met an ambulance near the police department.

So one of those charges should be tampering with a crime scene. If it isn't he should be greatful.
 
2013-09-28 09:54:35 AM

Ker_Thwap: JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.

If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


[1.bp.blogspot.com image 450x247]

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!

When you work a high stress job, you learn to pay attention to your surroundings.  It's not only medically necessary to ask "what happened" it's also a good survival technique.  I hope you're not suggesting the EMT is somehow cowardly for not showing a basic sense of self preservation.  It's never wise to turn your back on a person who is screaming at you.


Someone or something was making a lot of noise at an accident scene? Say it isn't so. If an EMT never turned their back on a person that was yelling at them (not 'I'm gonna kill you!' it was "do your job my daughter is dying!' see the difference?) I'm betting there would be a lot more dead people on the street.

Securing a person the gurney or operating table is superstar important. In the OR you never let a person fall. Never. And the 'what happened' question was pretty obvious: major head trauma. Self preservation is important, don't get me wrong, maybe most important. But please don't try to defend an EMT who made glaring mistakes.
 
2013-09-28 09:55:13 AM

JuniorII: fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.



Begs to differ.


If my daughter/son/loved one was laying on the ground hovering  between life and death I would be SCREAMING too. And If my daughter/son/loved fell off the gurney for ANY reason I would also encourage that EMT to do his farking job.

Poor EMT, under duress.

And fark the police


Kay. In a link upthread to a different article, dad says that he ran up to the ambulance and threw the corpse onto a half-unloaded stretcher. And you're surprised that the body fell off the stretcher? The EMTs didn't load the carcass, and a half unloaded stretcher is in a difficult spot to reach. I wonder if dad had the presence of mind to buckle the seatbelts after tossing his daughter onto the stretcher that was 4 feet off the ground.

The "do your job" shiat was about the EMTs not peeling out as soon as the cadaver was in the back. They have things to do that A) need two sets of hands to accomplish, or B) need to do a couple of things that don't go well while bouncing down the road in the back of a box truck. If dad wanted someone to drive like a maniac to the hospital without evaluating or providing medical care, he should have just left her in his car and not called the ambulance.
 
2013-09-28 09:56:03 AM

Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.


There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney he carries his child's body and brains to a gurney. Nothing.

That might serve my point better. The real issue I have is again in bold.
 
2013-09-28 10:00:18 AM
Not seeing the part about driving like a maniac and I still stand by the assertion that people with giblet brains recover sometimes. Saying that she was dead, what does any of it matter presupposes an awful lot.

But I did not know that dad was the one who loaded her onto the gurney. I will read the 'rest of the story' and use my head thinker about this.

No mater what, unless there was clear and present danger to them, the EMT should have made sure that she was secured, not dad, no matter what. One was trained, one was hysterical.
 
2013-09-28 10:05:20 AM
The EMT/paramedic's job is to keep a patient alive long enough to reach the hospital, this isn't done by just driving off the moment someone is chucked on the back. Someone screaming and cursing at you how you should be doing your job while having no medical knowledge, is sometimes understandable, but never helpful in achieving this.

I am concerned how many people here have implied I should just take a beating (with no consequences for the attacker because they are upset) for doing my hardest to save a life and do my job!
 
2013-09-28 10:08:27 AM

psychopathic tendencies: Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney he carries his child's body and brains to a gurney. Nothing.

That might serve my point better. The real issue I have is again in bold.


Without any statement from the police department, however, we only have this guy's version of events.  Most likely the father has omitted some details.  Reading the story only mentions the son was pepper sprayed first, but the way it's written, I could infer he (the son) was just standing there while his father was being hysterical and the police arrived on scene, immediately sprayed the son, then went for the father.  I doubt that's what happened.
 
2013-09-28 10:11:31 AM
Good. Acting like an ass at a rescue scene is bullshiat.
 
2013-09-28 10:11:48 AM
Oh yeah......

I'm a paramedic and I'm getting a kick from some of these replies......
 
2013-09-28 10:12:07 AM

JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.

If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


[1.bp.blogspot.com image 450x247]

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!

When you work a high stress job, you learn to pay attention to your surroundings.  It's not only medically necessary to ask "what happened" it's also a good survival technique.  I hope you're not suggesting the EMT is somehow cowardly for not showing a basic sense of self preservation.  It's never wise to turn your back on a person who is screaming at you.

Someone or something was making a lot of noise at an accident scene? Say it isn't so. If an EMT never turned their back on a person that was yelling at them (not 'I'm gonna kill you!' it was "do your job my daughter is dying!' see the difference?) I'm betting there would be a lot more dead people on the street.

Securing a person the gurney or operating table is superstar important. In the OR you never let a person fall. Never. And the 'what happened' question was pretty obvious: major head trauma. Self preservation is important, don't get me wrong, maybe most important. But please don't try to defend an EMT who made glaring mistakes.


I don't think you've studied this situation closely enough to come to that conclusion about the glaring mistakes.  I think you have an image in your head, of how this scene played out, that just doesn't match what's been reported.
 
2013-09-28 10:13:19 AM

Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?


Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.


Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.
 
2013-09-28 10:20:16 AM

Ker_Thwap: For someone so very sensitive to your rights, it's a bit sad to see you're a misogynist.


What makes you think I hate women or think they are inferior?

Women's underwear is typically thinner (and often uses less material if thongish) and therefor easier to twist. I am saying that cops get their undies in a twist easier than most people, and the quickest way for that to happen is if they were using a shear material, rather than the thick cotton boxers or briefs men typically wear. I was being metaphysical, not misogyinstic.

/but like a typical woman, you've gone and made a big deal out of nothing.
// ;P
 
2013-09-28 10:23:12 AM

JuniorII: fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.

[i.huffpost.com image 380x573]

Begs to differ.


If my daughter/son/loved one was laying on the ground hovering  between life and death I would be SCREAMING too. And If my daughter/son/loved fell off the gurney for ANY reason I would also encourage that EMT to do his farking job.

Poor EMT, under duress.

And fark the police


The other six who died would like to have a word with you. There is also a time factor as well as the caliber of the weapon and the proximity.
A small caliber shot to the temple with an entry wound and no exit wound works much like the in the shell egg scramblers and is not survivable. A larger caliber round from farther away with a exit wound is survivable.

She was likely already dead and exhibiting post-mortem twitching. It's a hell of a thing to see, especially if you don't know what you are looking at and are in a panic.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:05 AM

JuniorII: Not seeing the part about driving like a maniac and I still stand by the assertion that people with giblet brains recover sometimes. Saying that she was dead, what does any of it matter presupposes an awful lot.

But I did not know that dad was the one who loaded her onto the gurney. I will read the 'rest of the story' and use my head thinker about this.

No mater what, unless there was clear and present danger to them, the EMT should have made sure that she was secured, not dad, no matter what. One was trained, one was hysterical.


"...we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself"

Okay, so you're the EMT, and you have the stretcher half out of the ambulance. You're holding it with both hands and dad runs out of his car screaming like a lunatic, carrying a bloody body and he tosses it onto the gurney. Did dad bounce her right off the gurney and onto the deck? Did the weight change from an empty to full stretcher catch the EMT off-guard and he dropped the stretcher? I don't know. But I'd bet that if the ambulance guys loaded the stretcher, she wouldn't have fallen off.

"At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away"

And the "do your farking job" stuff started. I'm going to assume this was an ALS ride, and they were getting an EKG and possibly intubating her if they could find her throat. But dad started flipping out, because once she's in the back that means lights, sirens, and pedal to the metal! Not spending 2 or 3 minutes evaluting and providing care.

Yes, people with gunshot wounds to the head sometimes survive, and sometimes recover well. But, as a FF/EMT in a high-crime city I'm getting a kick. Those guys knew on sight whether there was any hope or not. A relatively clean in/out and a warm body with a pulse? Got a chance. Top of the head missing with a hunk of brain the size of a shoe detached and no pulse? Well, let's go through the motions.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:08 AM

MythDragon: Ker_Thwap: For someone so very sensitive to your rights, it's a bit sad to see you're a misogynist.

What makes you think I hate women or think they are inferior?

Women's underwear is typically thinner (and often uses less material if thongish) and therefor easier to twist. I am saying that cops get their undies in a twist easier than most people, and the quickest way for that to happen is if they were using a shear material, rather than the thick cotton boxers or briefs men typically wear. I was being metaphysical, not misogyinstic.

/but like a typical woman, you've gone and made a big deal out of nothing.
// ;P


Not a woman here, just a father of daughters.  I was just illustrating the hypocrisy I so often see of those who protest most loudly for their own rights, while putting down others.  If you're going to campaign for certain rights, the campaign loses effectiveness when you alienate half the population.  I'm just trying to help.

I'd love to see the study that show women's undergarments are more susceptible to twisting than say the boxers that I wear.   Yeah, I've used the term myself, but I try to be more creative in my put downs theses days.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:40 AM
Kids also commit suicide because they're bullied. No one knows if it was sexual assault. No one should say it was. Dumb.
 
2013-09-28 10:38:53 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?

Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.

Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.


Wow, you can can allege that a man molested his daughter but whine when someone throws it back at you?

Moderator! Whaaaaaaaa!!
 
2013-09-28 10:46:59 AM

fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.


Patients don't just fall off gurneys without a reason--and the reason was probably something the family members did.

taurusowner: People who get up in arms about police using pepper spray seem to forget that it's the least harmful out of any of those options. Tasers pierce the skin. Batons and fighting are worse as they often involve blunt force trauma on both the subject and the officer. So instead of one guy crying for an hour and having to wash his face, you have 2 guys in the emergency room with lacerations, broken bones and maybe head trauma.

So many people seem to want to go back to the days before police had tasers and spray. And those people don't know history. Back then blackjacks and sap gloves were issued to officers and continued the norm. Beating a person unconscious was just part of the job. It was either that or shoot them. Injuries to both the officer and the subject have gone down since tasers and spray became widely used.


Exactly.  I think the problem is that so many view it as a competition, with tasers and pepper spray the fool doesn't stand a chance against a cop and so they see the cop as wrong.
 
M-G
2013-09-28 10:50:17 AM

Silvyrbug: I was an EMT for 6 years...and I have been in a similar situation...gsw to the head...when you show up to a scene like that you just know there isn't anything you can do. Its very sad for us responding because we know its a lost cause 99% of the time.
You see the horror and shock in the families eyes....the hope and desperation you are going to make her ok, and you feel that pit in your stomach in knowing its not going to end that way. But you fall on your experience and training and do what you can.
However...the families are the biggest obstruction. They are scared and hysterical and sometimes do scream at you to do something. And in this state they do exactly everything you expect a greiving human to do....and get right in the way and impede the people trying to help.
Its always a huge clusterfark of emotion.
I imagine the EMT tried to get them out of the way and did what they could.


We had a DOA in our house last year.  He was already cold and stiff.  They left the body, and only the cop waited until we arranged for transport.  I spoke to one of the fire chiefs later, and he said that their protocol is that if it's an obvious DOA, they call in to the hospital and describe the circumstances, and death is declared.  He said that in the past, they'd have to load them up and transport to the ER, which created all kinds of problems:  it gave the family a false sense of hope while they ran through the motions to resuscitate, ran up medical bills, and of course takes the ambulance and crew out of service for a while.

It's entirely possible that things work the same way there.  They knew she was gone and weren't going to attempt anything, and this guy was going nuts insisting that they do something.
 
2013-09-28 10:52:01 AM
Eve L. Koont:  whine

That's cute. You think this has something to do with you.
 
2013-09-28 11:10:04 AM

Cagey B: Screaming hysterical people are not likely to help any given situation, and should be tased repeatedly in the scrotal regions until reason prevails.


General Rule 78a

/gavel slams down
 
2013-09-28 11:12:10 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont:  whine

That's cute. You think this has something to do with you.


I know that you're a hypocritical little b*tch that is so self entitled that you think you can accuse a man who of molesting his daughter without any proof whatsoever, when he's already down (another classic sign of a little b*tch). Then cry like my 2 year old when I throw your own logic back at you.
You're twisted.
 
2013-09-28 11:16:19 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?

Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.

Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.


You know what else goes hand in hand with suicide? Bullying, mental illness, drugs, etc etc.

To take it straight to daddy must have diddled his daughter is pretty effing sick.
 
2013-09-28 11:20:19 AM
Dear Police,

         Tasers are not remote controls for people.
 
2013-09-28 11:30:26 AM

Phil Clinton: Dear Police,

         Tasers are not remote controls for people.


There sure arn't for this guy
 
2013-09-28 11:39:19 AM

robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow


I'm not a "fark tha Police!" type of dude, but this is an incredibly stupid statement to make.  People can support their government and their police officers without blindly condoning shiatbag behavior.  Pepper spraying and arresting a hysterical father is shiatbag behavior.  If this had been the girl's mother and sister behaving in this manner, they would have been given a drab gray blanket and given a ride to the hospital with their dying family member.  Do you really think police officers would pepper spray and arrest a grieving mother and sister?  I don't farking think so, not unless they were out there carving up EMTs with samurai swords.  Police could have handled this completely different.  Firstly, by finding out what the farking problem was instead of just assuming that the EMTs were being attacked with very colorful language and constructive criticism (the two most powerful weapons in a dangerous criminal's arsenal, I tell you what).  Secondly by getting those men to the hospital with their wounded family member so they could be there for her in her final moments.  Bottom line:  What you're basically saying is that these two men would have been better off leaving their daughter/sibling bleeding out from a headshot wound than seeking professional emergency help.  And THAT, that is farking retarded.
 
2013-09-28 12:10:04 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


Yes, hnk. <<snort>> the investi-<<snort>>investi<<snort>> (excuse me) investigation will reveal the (heh), reveal (heh heah) reveal what really--BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
2013-09-28 12:13:49 PM
Half the story and no reason to think emts and cops acted inappropriately.

Where did she get the gun, Dad?
 
2013-09-28 12:25:17 PM

log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.


You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.
 
2013-09-28 01:17:04 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Half the story and no reason to think emts and cops acted inappropriately.

Where did she get the gun, Dad?


How dare you challenge the second amendment, commie

oregoncommentator.com
 
2013-09-28 01:22:52 PM
So basically this reads like them rolling up on a random ambulance with a body and then immediately scream at the paramedics who had zero time to assess anything.
 
2013-09-28 01:40:05 PM
Dad finds daughter in the park shot in the head. Why is he so quick to insist it's suicide?
 
2013-09-28 01:51:20 PM

fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.


Assumes facts not in evidence.
 
2013-09-28 02:04:47 PM

PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.


You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly and professionally do my job. This is not an invitation to touch me, to yell at me, or to interfere with the care I am providing.
 
2013-09-28 02:18:05 PM

jso2897: robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow

Do you spend a lot of time imagining what the "bad people" think?
That's unwholesome thinking, you know.


I'm constantly amazed at how people who can't coherently state their own views without parroting what they've read or seen on TV can still explain exactly how other people think.
 
2013-09-28 02:18:22 PM

lizyrd:  Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming.


This man knows a thing or two about all back of the bus...


s.mcstatic.com
 
2013-09-28 02:34:47 PM

lizyrd: PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.

You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly ...


here is the perfect picture for your profile pic... looks just like you.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-09-28 03:47:38 PM

dstrick44: robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow

I've managed to avoid calling 911my entire life. And no cop has EVER intervened on my behalf. Ever. No matter the situation. It has been my experience in my 50 years that any time the police come around, things get exponentially worse. For everyone involved.
I have never seen a time that a cop has resolved or helped resolve anything without making someone's life miserable unnecessarily.
The only time police should be called is when you need a police report for insurance purposes.
And then only after having that argument with your insurance co.


You live around shiat people
 
2013-09-28 04:01:10 PM
Wow. This was a fun read.

A poorly worded news article that presents one side of the story, compounding poor decisions by the family (which they can't really be faulted for. If my daughter ate a bullet, I'd be hysterical too.) and an inability for the EMS guys to tell their story until a lawsuit emerges, being bound by various state and federal privacy laws.

I'll reserve my outrage for both sides until we actually get the whole story.

JuniorII: Begs to differ.


Little bit different there. Gabrielle Giffords still had a pulse, and was not a medial gunshot wound to the skull with no exit, and the shooting was witnessed with immediate care provided by bystanders and first responders. Which is different than someone throwing a person in the car, and driving somewhere with them. We don't really know, thanks to the Journalism Major that wrote this, how long before she was "thrown on the cot" she shot herself, either.

Quite frankly, if someone DOESN'T have a pulse, has a midline gunshot wound to the head, or has explosive cranial decompression, the American College of Surgeons and the NAEMSP do not recommend any resuscitative measures, as survival to discharge is nearly 0%.
 
2013-09-28 04:01:59 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


Reason and rationality aren't being approached in that "article." One-sided, written specifically to circumvent reason and appeal to emotion, it's useless as a source of information.
 
2013-09-28 04:18:09 PM
Whose gun did she use?
 
2013-09-28 04:36:24 PM

sat1va: Whose gun did she use?


And where was it? Because I can see first responders being a little twitchy responding to a GSW with hysterical people and no idea where the weapon is.
 
2013-09-28 04:46:43 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: lizyrd: PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.

You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly ...

here is the perfect picture for your profile pic... looks just like you.


I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"
 
2013-09-28 04:50:19 PM

lizyrd: I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"


Basically, Mongo not like opinion questioned. Mongo not let people dissuade him.
 
2013-09-28 05:07:05 PM
Tsk tsk, subby, linking to part 2 of the story. From Part 1:

Ten days before Brooke died, the family says she ran away.  The Russells started therapy immediately; apparently it wasn't enough.  After Brooke didn't come home from a run one Sunday evening, Julissa went looking for her.

"I got a call from my wife and she was screaming, I couldn't even understand her," Kevin said.  "I knew something was wrong, I never heard her scream like that, and I said 'Julissa please slow down,' and I heard 'gun,' I heard 'blood.'"

When Kevin and Brant got to the park moments later, Kevin thought Brooke might still have a fighting chance.

"I remember saying, 'Oh my God.'  I threw my phone down while I was on with 911 and I ran to her.  I checked for a pulse but didn't feel a pulse and there was just a little mark, I really couldn't tell, the back of her head," he said of the wound. "And I looked into her eyes and her eyes were halfway open like she was sleeping with her eyes open."

Brooke died and Kevin can't get that horrific picture out of his head: his wife cradling their daughter in the backseat of the car while the family sped toward help; Brooke falling off a gurney before being loaded into a waiting ambulance; and a bench inside the Joplin Police Department where Kevin and Brant sat handcuffed while Brooke was dying.


No mention of the wife in part 2 of the story; obviously she didn't get arrested. And it sounds like, by his own admission, his daughter was already dead, and he was acting out in panicked denial. But if the EMTs saw what he saw, maybe they'd already decided it was too late for her.

I can imagine someone going out of their heads with grief and having to be restrained, and getting manhandled wouldn't have been any better than getting pepper-sprayed. Maybe the cops did over-react. But what do they have to work with?: a girl dead from a gunshot, removed from the scene, no indication of the whereabouts of the gun, and two (maybe three?) adults going crazy and behaving in a manner that is at best confrontational. Bad situation all around.
 
2013-09-28 05:42:55 PM

psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.


As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?
 
2013-09-28 05:57:02 PM
Eh, I've seen scenes where people are pretty hysterical and out of control b/c a loved one is in medical distress. As a cop, I can see using some level of force to ensure that the EMT is able to do their job, and I'm also ok with taking someone to jail to let them cool off a bit before attending to the person who will hopefully be at the hospital. Having that person interfere with care for their loved one, ride in the ambulance, or just get in the way at the ER isn't really an option, and care of the patient needs to be the priority.  The charges are effectively a way to ensure that you don't get hit with a false arrest lawsuit, but basically some minor thing that even if the prosecutor doesn't elect to go after, ensure the person has some chill time before returning to society at large.
 
2013-09-28 07:16:35 PM

lizyrd: I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"


It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.

/you sound Vulcan
 
2013-09-28 07:56:30 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.


If you want to ignore emotion, you can be blunt and incredibly cruel at the same time: Rather than calling 911 and administering Pre-Arrival medical aid, throwing their daughter in the car and then driving her to an ambulance station, THEN assaulting the crew trying to render aid and find out WTF happened (Which, ya know....is part of their assessment.) likely removed ANY hope of their daughter surviving even intact enough to maintain a pulse on her own and spend the rest of her life on a ventilator and G-Tube.

If you want to ignore emotion and be a dick.

/this is a horrible situation.
 
2013-09-28 09:00:45 PM
The guy saw his daughter nearly dead.

His baby girl for 16 years.

I think a little hysterical behavior can be calmed down other than with pepper spray and threats.

/farking pigs.
 
2013-09-28 09:12:35 PM

MycroftHolmes: psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.

As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?


You may have read my post as a quote, and therefore the bold (read:important) part may have been lost on you. I see you named yourself after the least observant of the duo, so maybe I'm wrong.

Also, we all need to come up with a name to call people who indict others of projecting while projecting onto the projector. Superprojector? Damnit I'm stuck in a recursive thingaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghghghghhghhhhhhh

MIND=BLOWN
 
2013-09-28 09:23:21 PM

Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney he carries his child's body and brains to a gurney. Nothing.

That might serve my point better. The real issue I have is again in bold.

Without any statement from the police department, however, we only have this guy's version of events.  Most likely the father has omitted some details.  Reading the story only mentions the son was pepper sprayed first, but the way it's written, I could infer he (the son) was just standing there while his father was being hysterical and the police arrived on scene, immediately sprayed the son, then went for the father.  I doubt that's what happened.


I agree. What I take umbrage with is the 3.5 hour detainment of both parties and the subsequent criminal charges. The cop may have been perfect on the bars, but he borked the dismount.

Maybe both the father and son were hysterical for 3.49 hours, and at 3.5 hours they calmed down and the police immediately released them. However, I doubt that is the case either.
 
2013-09-28 09:51:42 PM

hardinparamedic: HindiDiscoMonster: It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.

If you want to ignore emotion, you can be blunt and incredibly cruel at the same time: Rather than calling 911 and administering Pre-Arrival medical aid, throwing their daughter in the car and then driving her to an ambulance station meeting the ambulance somewhere between where they were and the police station they ended up in front of, THEN assaulting the crew trying to render aid and find out WTF happened (Which, ya know....is part of their assessment.) likely removed ANY hope of their daughter surviving even intact enough to maintain a pulse on her own and spend the rest of her life on a ventilator and G-Tube.

If you want to ignore emotion and be a dick.

/this is a horrible situation.


Strikethrough: FTFY
Bold: 1. I don't believe the police any further than I could throw them with my telekinetic abilities and 2. Assault now = screaming in emotional distress? - new one for me.

/I have no telekinetic abilities
//Ambulance crew has not weighed in on this issue, so there is no way to know if an assault actually happened, or if it's police CYA as usual.
 
2013-09-28 10:22:43 PM

psychopathic tendencies: I agree. What I take umbrage with is the 3.5 hour detainment of both parties and the subsequent criminal charges. The cop may have been perfect on the bars, but he borked the dismount.

Maybe both the father and son were hysterical for 3.49 hours, and at 3.5 hours they calmed down and the police immediately released them. However, I doubt that is the case either.


Perhaps Daddy and Sonny were shiatfaced and needed a little coffee time.  Maybe the cops wanted to take a little time to see if there were any other Daughters/Sisters who had committed suicide in the past.
 
2013-09-28 10:26:22 PM

hardinparamedic: Quite frankly, if someone DOESN'T have a pulse, has a midline gunshot wound to the head, or has explosive cranial decompression, the American College of Surgeons and the NAEMSP do not recommend any resuscitative measures, as survival to discharge is nearly 0%.


That is correct. No spontaneous respirations and no pulse? We are done here. It does take a minute to check that.....but not much more. Of course it's amazing how long on minute can be.

Hopefully there is a dashcam of the whole incident.
 
2013-09-28 10:38:21 PM
EMS assault laws by state.

Missouri

As used in this section, "emergency personnel"
means any paid or volunteer firefighter,
emergency room or trauma center personnel, or
emergency medical technician.
A person commits the crime
of assault of
emergency personnel in the first degree if such
person attempts to kill or knowingly causes or
attempts to cause serious physical injury to
emergency personnel.
Assault of emergency personnel in the first
degree is a class A felony.

A person commits the crime of assault of
emergency personnel in the second degree if
such person:

(1) Knowingly causes or attempts to cause
physical injury to emergency personnel by
means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(2) Knowingly causes or a
ttempts to cause
physical injury to emergency personnel by
Effective
means other than a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(3) Recklessly causes serious physical injury to
emergency personnel; or
(4) While in an intoxicated condition or under
the influence of controlled substances or drugs,
operates a motor vehicle or vessel in this state
and when so operating, acts with criminal
negligence to cause physical injury emergency
personnel;
(5) Acts with criminal negligence to cause
physical injury to emergency
personnel by
means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(6) Purposely or recklessly places emergency
personnel in apprehension of immediate serious
physical injury
; or
(7) Acts with criminal negligence to create a
substantial risk of death or serious physical
injury to emergency personnel.
Assault of emergency personnel is a class B
felony unless committed pursuant to subdivision
(2), (5), (6), or (7) of subsection 1 of this section
in which case it is a class C felony.

A person commits the crme of assault of
emergency personnel in the third degree if:
(1) Such person recklessly causes physical injury
to emergency personnel;
(2) Such person purposely places emergency
personnel in apprehension of immediate physical
injury;
(3) Such person knowingly causes or attempts to
cause physical contact with emergency personnel
without the consent of the emergency personnel
.
Assault of emergency personnel in the third
degree is a class A misdemeanor
 
2013-09-28 11:23:33 PM

psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.

As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?

You may have read my post as a quote, and therefore the bold (read:important) part may have been lost on you. I see you named yourself after the least observant of the duo, so maybe I'm wrong.

Also, we all need to come up with a name to call people w ...


OK, so in your world, you think that police using force justified at the time (and yes, it could very easily be justified) that did not result in charges will not immediately result in a lawsuit?  I assume that you are just skipping that part of my response each time.  Logic goes like this-if force was required, then a law was being broken.  If not, then force was used on individuals not breaking any law.

You don't seem to be arguing any longer that force might not have been required.  But you seem to be unable to make that logical leap as to why the police (or DA rather) are pressing charges.  Go on, buddy, you can make it.

If you are interfering with EMS (and from the father's self told description, it was very likely that he was) in a confrontational way, then yes, he was breaking the law.  Keep in mind, all the charges being brought were misdemeanors, so it is not like they are throwing the book at him.
 
2013-09-29 12:06:36 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: I think cops should be pepper-sprayed and tased once a month just so they remember how it feels. And shot once a year in a non-critical body part. Like the head.


If I wasn't cripplingly poor I would sponsor you for a month of TF.
 
2013-09-29 12:11:39 AM

bborchar: fluffy2097: IlGreven: Oh, I bet you'd be fun at the IPCC...

The daughter shot herself in the head with a gun. There is no possible way she was aware of the universe even existing milliseconds after pulling that trigger. She was dead when the family found her She was dead when EMT's arrived, she was dead when the family assaulted the EMT, she was dead when she fell off the gurney.

Sit the fark down and let emergency workers do their job.

/she was probably molested by her father or brother anyways leading to the suicide to begin with.
//Life is horrible. welcome to it.

Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.


You know how thieves think everyone steals?
 
2013-09-29 12:17:31 AM
While I sympathize with a man whose daughter just shot herself in the head, I am disturbed by the reporter's lack of bias in this article. If an (understandably) irrational man burst into an ER making demands and screaming, keeping the med professionals from doing their jobs, would it not be reasonable for hospital security to remove him from the ER by whatever means was most expedient? Why would that be different in the field? 

People seem to jump to the conclusion that cops are bad. Some are, for sure, but who of the judgmental crowd have the guts to assess a situation and act in the best interest of public safety with seconds to decide? Respect the rights of the father who is basically insane at the time, or intervene to let the EMTs try to save her? Not a job I would want.

There are plenty of cases of police misconduct. I don't think this is one.
 
2013-09-29 12:23:39 AM

cretinbob: Oh yeah......

I'm a paramedic and I'm getting a kick from some of these replies......


I kicked a paramedic in the teeth once while being strapped to a gurney. I don't actually remember the incident but my family gave a fairly spooked retelling when I regained consciousness.
 
2013-09-29 12:31:35 AM
MycroftHolmes:  potato-like typing detected

'If A then B' does not equal 'if not A then not B.' Logic does not, in fact, 'go like' your example.

You appear to be a potato.  I'm unequipped to spar with root vegetables.  Yam away all you want, but I canna continue.

/beets it


 
2013-09-29 12:37:51 AM

firefly212: Eh, I've seen scenes where people are pretty hysterical and out of control b/c a loved one is in medical distress. As a cop, I can see using some level of force to ensure that the EMT is able to do their job, and I'm also ok with taking someone to jail to let them cool off a bit before attending to the person who will hopefully be at the hospital. Having that person interfere with care for their loved one, ride in the ambulance, or just get in the way at the ER isn't really an option, and care of the patient needs to be the priority.  The charges are effectively a way to ensure that you don't get hit with a false arrest lawsuit, but basically some minor thing that even if the prosecutor doesn't elect to go after, ensure the person has some chill time before returning to society at large.

gaming the system in order to provide myself an advantage that non-police don't have, to the detriment of "little people".
 
2013-09-29 02:41:32 PM

psychopathic tendencies: Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney he carries his child's body and brains to a gurney. Nothing.

That might serve my point better. The real issue I have is again in bold.

Without any statement from the police department, however, we only have this guy's version of events.  Most likely the father has omitted some details.  Reading the story only mentions the son was pepper sprayed first, but the way it's written, I could infer he (the son) was just standing there while his father was being hysterical and the police arrived on scene, immediately sprayed the son, then went for the father.  I doubt that's what happened.

I agree. What I take umbrage with is the 3.5 hour detainment of both parties and the subsequent criminal charges. The cop may have been perfect on the bars, but he borked the dismount.

Maybe both the father and son were hysterical for 3.49 hours, and at 3.5 hours they calmed down and the police immediately released them. However, I doubt that is the case either.


They weren't placed into protective custody because of their hysteria, they were arrested because of their actions warranted criminal charges (charges isn't conviction, the cops did their job, now the court will do its job).  Not sure how long they were hysterical for comes into play. If they father and son want to try to beat the charges due to emotional distress, that's their choice, but again, that falls to the realm of the court, not the police department.

Lydia_C: "I remember saying, 'Oh my God.'  I threw my phone down while I was on with 911 and I ran to her.  I checked for a pulse but didn't feel a pulse and there was just a little mark, I really couldn't tell, the back of her head," he said of the wound. "And I looked into her eyes and her eyes were halfway open like she was sleeping with her eyes open."


Wait, so she shot herself in the back of the head?
 
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