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(KSPR Springfield)   Hysterically screaming at an EMT to save your daughter? That's a pepper spraying and arrest   (kspr.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, EMT, Joplin, daughter died  
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7460 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Sep 2013 at 5:57 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-28 10:11:48 AM
Oh yeah......

I'm a paramedic and I'm getting a kick from some of these replies......
 
2013-09-28 10:12:07 AM

JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: JuniorII: Ker_Thwap: So maybe making the EMT fear for their life wasn't the most effective method for the parent?  It's reasonable to ask what happened as part of the triage process.

If the EMT was in fear of his life in this situation maybe they need to rethink their career career choice. It's a high stress job on the easy days. For some reason, my sympathy is not with the EMT in this case.


[1.bp.blogspot.com image 450x247]

There's always work at the post office.


/and people only occasionally die there!

When you work a high stress job, you learn to pay attention to your surroundings.  It's not only medically necessary to ask "what happened" it's also a good survival technique.  I hope you're not suggesting the EMT is somehow cowardly for not showing a basic sense of self preservation.  It's never wise to turn your back on a person who is screaming at you.

Someone or something was making a lot of noise at an accident scene? Say it isn't so. If an EMT never turned their back on a person that was yelling at them (not 'I'm gonna kill you!' it was "do your job my daughter is dying!' see the difference?) I'm betting there would be a lot more dead people on the street.

Securing a person the gurney or operating table is superstar important. In the OR you never let a person fall. Never. And the 'what happened' question was pretty obvious: major head trauma. Self preservation is important, don't get me wrong, maybe most important. But please don't try to defend an EMT who made glaring mistakes.


I don't think you've studied this situation closely enough to come to that conclusion about the glaring mistakes.  I think you have an image in your head, of how this scene played out, that just doesn't match what's been reported.
 
2013-09-28 10:13:19 AM

Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?


Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.


Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.
 
2013-09-28 10:20:16 AM

Ker_Thwap: For someone so very sensitive to your rights, it's a bit sad to see you're a misogynist.


What makes you think I hate women or think they are inferior?

Women's underwear is typically thinner (and often uses less material if thongish) and therefor easier to twist. I am saying that cops get their undies in a twist easier than most people, and the quickest way for that to happen is if they were using a shear material, rather than the thick cotton boxers or briefs men typically wear. I was being metaphysical, not misogyinstic.

/but like a typical woman, you've gone and made a big deal out of nothing.
// ;P
 
2013-09-28 10:23:12 AM

JuniorII: fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.

[i.huffpost.com image 380x573]

Begs to differ.


If my daughter/son/loved one was laying on the ground hovering  between life and death I would be SCREAMING too. And If my daughter/son/loved fell off the gurney for ANY reason I would also encourage that EMT to do his farking job.

Poor EMT, under duress.

And fark the police


The other six who died would like to have a word with you. There is also a time factor as well as the caliber of the weapon and the proximity.
A small caliber shot to the temple with an entry wound and no exit wound works much like the in the shell egg scramblers and is not survivable. A larger caliber round from farther away with a exit wound is survivable.

She was likely already dead and exhibiting post-mortem twitching. It's a hell of a thing to see, especially if you don't know what you are looking at and are in a panic.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:05 AM

JuniorII: Not seeing the part about driving like a maniac and I still stand by the assertion that people with giblet brains recover sometimes. Saying that she was dead, what does any of it matter presupposes an awful lot.

But I did not know that dad was the one who loaded her onto the gurney. I will read the 'rest of the story' and use my head thinker about this.

No mater what, unless there was clear and present danger to them, the EMT should have made sure that she was secured, not dad, no matter what. One was trained, one was hysterical.


"...we ran her over to the parked ambulance. We put her on the gurney that was halfway out of the ambulance, and I screamed that my daughter had shot herself"

Okay, so you're the EMT, and you have the stretcher half out of the ambulance. You're holding it with both hands and dad runs out of his car screaming like a lunatic, carrying a bloody body and he tosses it onto the gurney. Did dad bounce her right off the gurney and onto the deck? Did the weight change from an empty to full stretcher catch the EMT off-guard and he dropped the stretcher? I don't know. But I'd bet that if the ambulance guys loaded the stretcher, she wouldn't have fallen off.

"At this point, I backed away because I thought they would put her in the ambulance and drive away"

And the "do your farking job" stuff started. I'm going to assume this was an ALS ride, and they were getting an EKG and possibly intubating her if they could find her throat. But dad started flipping out, because once she's in the back that means lights, sirens, and pedal to the metal! Not spending 2 or 3 minutes evaluting and providing care.

Yes, people with gunshot wounds to the head sometimes survive, and sometimes recover well. But, as a FF/EMT in a high-crime city I'm getting a kick. Those guys knew on sight whether there was any hope or not. A relatively clean in/out and a warm body with a pulse? Got a chance. Top of the head missing with a hunk of brain the size of a shoe detached and no pulse? Well, let's go through the motions.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:08 AM

MythDragon: Ker_Thwap: For someone so very sensitive to your rights, it's a bit sad to see you're a misogynist.

What makes you think I hate women or think they are inferior?

Women's underwear is typically thinner (and often uses less material if thongish) and therefor easier to twist. I am saying that cops get their undies in a twist easier than most people, and the quickest way for that to happen is if they were using a shear material, rather than the thick cotton boxers or briefs men typically wear. I was being metaphysical, not misogyinstic.

/but like a typical woman, you've gone and made a big deal out of nothing.
// ;P


Not a woman here, just a father of daughters.  I was just illustrating the hypocrisy I so often see of those who protest most loudly for their own rights, while putting down others.  If you're going to campaign for certain rights, the campaign loses effectiveness when you alienate half the population.  I'm just trying to help.

I'd love to see the study that show women's undergarments are more susceptible to twisting than say the boxers that I wear.   Yeah, I've used the term myself, but I try to be more creative in my put downs theses days.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:40 AM
Kids also commit suicide because they're bullied. No one knows if it was sexual assault. No one should say it was. Dumb.
 
2013-09-28 10:38:53 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?

Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.

Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.


Wow, you can can allege that a man molested his daughter but whine when someone throws it back at you?

Moderator! Whaaaaaaaa!!
 
2013-09-28 10:46:59 AM

fusillade762: He claims the situation escalated when he says the EMT turned away from Brooke to him to ask what had happened. He says, had the EMT been turned toward Brooke, he would have seen her fall off the gurney.

Seems like "Keeping Unconscious Patients on a Gurney" would be EMT 101.


Patients don't just fall off gurneys without a reason--and the reason was probably something the family members did.

taurusowner: People who get up in arms about police using pepper spray seem to forget that it's the least harmful out of any of those options. Tasers pierce the skin. Batons and fighting are worse as they often involve blunt force trauma on both the subject and the officer. So instead of one guy crying for an hour and having to wash his face, you have 2 guys in the emergency room with lacerations, broken bones and maybe head trauma.

So many people seem to want to go back to the days before police had tasers and spray. And those people don't know history. Back then blackjacks and sap gloves were issued to officers and continued the norm. Beating a person unconscious was just part of the job. It was either that or shoot them. Injuries to both the officer and the subject have gone down since tasers and spray became widely used.


Exactly.  I think the problem is that so many view it as a competition, with tasers and pepper spray the fool doesn't stand a chance against a cop and so they see the cop as wrong.
 
M-G
2013-09-28 10:50:17 AM

Silvyrbug: I was an EMT for 6 years...and I have been in a similar situation...gsw to the head...when you show up to a scene like that you just know there isn't anything you can do. Its very sad for us responding because we know its a lost cause 99% of the time.
You see the horror and shock in the families eyes....the hope and desperation you are going to make her ok, and you feel that pit in your stomach in knowing its not going to end that way. But you fall on your experience and training and do what you can.
However...the families are the biggest obstruction. They are scared and hysterical and sometimes do scream at you to do something. And in this state they do exactly everything you expect a greiving human to do....and get right in the way and impede the people trying to help.
Its always a huge clusterfark of emotion.
I imagine the EMT tried to get them out of the way and did what they could.


We had a DOA in our house last year.  He was already cold and stiff.  They left the body, and only the cop waited until we arranged for transport.  I spoke to one of the fire chiefs later, and he said that their protocol is that if it's an obvious DOA, they call in to the hospital and describe the circumstances, and death is declared.  He said that in the past, they'd have to load them up and transport to the ER, which created all kinds of problems:  it gave the family a false sense of hope while they ran through the motions to resuscitate, ran up medical bills, and of course takes the ambulance and crew out of service for a while.

It's entirely possible that things work the same way there.  They knew she was gone and weren't going to attempt anything, and this guy was going nuts insisting that they do something.
 
2013-09-28 10:52:01 AM
Eve L. Koont:  whine

That's cute. You think this has something to do with you.
 
2013-09-28 11:10:04 AM

Cagey B: Screaming hysterical people are not likely to help any given situation, and should be tased repeatedly in the scrotal regions until reason prevails.


General Rule 78a

/gavel slams down
 
2013-09-28 11:12:10 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont:  whine

That's cute. You think this has something to do with you.


I know that you're a hypocritical little b*tch that is so self entitled that you think you can accuse a man who of molesting his daughter without any proof whatsoever, when he's already down (another classic sign of a little b*tch). Then cry like my 2 year old when I throw your own logic back at you.
You're twisted.
 
2013-09-28 11:16:19 AM

fluffy2097: Eve L. Koont: So you fantasize about molesting your kids?

Wow Moderator. You're not gonna ban for that as trolling other users? How consistent your principles are! It's a good thing people already know I only have Hypothetical children.

bborchar: Wow, that's an insane and completely basis accusation to make. Are all teenagers that kill themselves molested by their fathers and brothers? Because that would be the only way to come to your conclusion based on the simple fact that a teenager killed herself.

Sexual abuse and suicide go hand and hand buddy. The statistics bear it out. She was probably molested by someone, and the leading type of person in sexual molestations? Blood relatives. (farked up, huh?) Such molestation could easily lead to her downward mental spiral that ultimately ended with her putting a bullet in her brainpan. As I speculated

/Seems like a really good way to cover up a murder too.


You know what else goes hand in hand with suicide? Bullying, mental illness, drugs, etc etc.

To take it straight to daddy must have diddled his daughter is pretty effing sick.
 
2013-09-28 11:20:19 AM
Dear Police,

         Tasers are not remote controls for people.
 
2013-09-28 11:30:26 AM

Phil Clinton: Dear Police,

         Tasers are not remote controls for people.


There sure arn't for this guy
 
2013-09-28 11:39:19 AM

robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow


I'm not a "fark tha Police!" type of dude, but this is an incredibly stupid statement to make.  People can support their government and their police officers without blindly condoning shiatbag behavior.  Pepper spraying and arresting a hysterical father is shiatbag behavior.  If this had been the girl's mother and sister behaving in this manner, they would have been given a drab gray blanket and given a ride to the hospital with their dying family member.  Do you really think police officers would pepper spray and arrest a grieving mother and sister?  I don't farking think so, not unless they were out there carving up EMTs with samurai swords.  Police could have handled this completely different.  Firstly, by finding out what the farking problem was instead of just assuming that the EMTs were being attacked with very colorful language and constructive criticism (the two most powerful weapons in a dangerous criminal's arsenal, I tell you what).  Secondly by getting those men to the hospital with their wounded family member so they could be there for her in her final moments.  Bottom line:  What you're basically saying is that these two men would have been better off leaving their daughter/sibling bleeding out from a headshot wound than seeking professional emergency help.  And THAT, that is farking retarded.
 
2013-09-28 12:10:04 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


Yes, hnk. <<snort>> the investi-<<snort>>investi<<snort>> (excuse me) investigation will reveal the (heh), reveal (heh heah) reveal what really--BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
2013-09-28 12:13:49 PM
Half the story and no reason to think emts and cops acted inappropriately.

Where did she get the gun, Dad?
 
2013-09-28 12:25:17 PM

log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.


You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.
 
2013-09-28 01:17:04 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Half the story and no reason to think emts and cops acted inappropriately.

Where did she get the gun, Dad?


How dare you challenge the second amendment, commie

oregoncommentator.com
 
2013-09-28 01:22:52 PM
So basically this reads like them rolling up on a random ambulance with a body and then immediately scream at the paramedics who had zero time to assess anything.
 
2013-09-28 01:40:05 PM
Dad finds daughter in the park shot in the head. Why is he so quick to insist it's suicide?
 
2013-09-28 01:51:20 PM

fluffy2097: The family found Brooke in a park near their house, unconscious from a single gunshot wound to the head.

EMT's also cannot put grey matter back together inside a skull when it has been turned into giblets by a hollow point round or buckshot.


Assumes facts not in evidence.
 
2013-09-28 02:04:47 PM

PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.


You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly and professionally do my job. This is not an invitation to touch me, to yell at me, or to interfere with the care I am providing.
 
2013-09-28 02:18:05 PM

jso2897: robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow

Do you spend a lot of time imagining what the "bad people" think?
That's unwholesome thinking, you know.


I'm constantly amazed at how people who can't coherently state their own views without parroting what they've read or seen on TV can still explain exactly how other people think.
 
2013-09-28 02:18:22 PM

lizyrd:  Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming.


This man knows a thing or two about all back of the bus...


s.mcstatic.com
 
2013-09-28 02:34:47 PM

lizyrd: PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.

You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly ...


here is the perfect picture for your profile pic... looks just like you.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-09-28 03:47:38 PM

dstrick44: robohobo: I'm sure all those who have such a hatred for police have forever foresworn 911 and police intervention.


/and I bet they farking love the government
//their side, anyhow

I've managed to avoid calling 911my entire life. And no cop has EVER intervened on my behalf. Ever. No matter the situation. It has been my experience in my 50 years that any time the police come around, things get exponentially worse. For everyone involved.
I have never seen a time that a cop has resolved or helped resolve anything without making someone's life miserable unnecessarily.
The only time police should be called is when you need a police report for insurance purposes.
And then only after having that argument with your insurance co.


You live around shiat people
 
2013-09-28 04:01:10 PM
Wow. This was a fun read.

A poorly worded news article that presents one side of the story, compounding poor decisions by the family (which they can't really be faulted for. If my daughter ate a bullet, I'd be hysterical too.) and an inability for the EMS guys to tell their story until a lawsuit emerges, being bound by various state and federal privacy laws.

I'll reserve my outrage for both sides until we actually get the whole story.

JuniorII: Begs to differ.


Little bit different there. Gabrielle Giffords still had a pulse, and was not a medial gunshot wound to the skull with no exit, and the shooting was witnessed with immediate care provided by bystanders and first responders. Which is different than someone throwing a person in the car, and driving somewhere with them. We don't really know, thanks to the Journalism Major that wrote this, how long before she was "thrown on the cot" she shot herself, either.

Quite frankly, if someone DOESN'T have a pulse, has a midline gunshot wound to the head, or has explosive cranial decompression, the American College of Surgeons and the NAEMSP do not recommend any resuscitative measures, as survival to discharge is nearly 0%.
 
2013-09-28 04:01:59 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The side of the EMT and the officer isn't being told here.  If the father and son were obstructing their efforts, they deserve the charges.  If not, the investigation will reveal that.


Reason and rationality aren't being approached in that "article." One-sided, written specifically to circumvent reason and appeal to emotion, it's useless as a source of information.
 
2013-09-28 04:18:09 PM
Whose gun did she use?
 
2013-09-28 04:36:24 PM

sat1va: Whose gun did she use?


And where was it? Because I can see first responders being a little twitchy responding to a GSW with hysterical people and no idea where the weapon is.
 
2013-09-28 04:46:43 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: lizyrd: PsiChick: log_jammin: mediablitz: "He says the incident was immediately reviewed and the officer involved has not been reprimanded or corrected in any way."

How convenient.

convenient? Just based on this article, and no other evidence, I'd most likely come to the same conclusion. The cop probably didn't do anything wrong.

You know, I have this funny idea that cops should be big enough to muscle around distraught people without needing pepper spray or tazers. That way they could get people out of the way without doing much damage to them. And maybe not charge them with crimes for acting like, well, family members who had lost a daughter\sister.

You know, I have this funny idea that people should be able to control themselves. That means doing what's directed by people whose job it is to manage emergencies, not becoming hysterical, and allowing responders to do their jobs without yelling and screaming about how they should be doing their job.

We have this guy's word alone that all he did was scream at the EMTs, which is bad enough. After having been punched, kicked, bit, spit on, scratched, shoved, grabbed, threatened and yelled at, there are only two ways that an assault will be handled. Either we'll settle it in the back of the bus, or the cops are coming. I'm doing my job; you will not interfere, initiate contact with me, or threaten me. I don't care how severe the injury or what the relationship to the patient is, if you can't control yourself enough to back up and keep quiet don't expect a lot of coddling from the emergency workers.

I understand that people are having a pretty bad day if they need to call for me. What people on the other side need to understand is twofold: 1) It's not my emergency, so I won't be agitated. Me being calm is not a sign that I don't care or that I don't understand the severity of the incident. 2) I've done this before. Between fire and EMS I do around 3,000 calls a year. I'm not going to freak out, I'm going to calmly ...

here is the perfect picture for your profile pic... looks just like you.


I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"
 
2013-09-28 04:50:19 PM

lizyrd: I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"


Basically, Mongo not like opinion questioned. Mongo not let people dissuade him.
 
2013-09-28 05:07:05 PM
Tsk tsk, subby, linking to part 2 of the story. From Part 1:

Ten days before Brooke died, the family says she ran away.  The Russells started therapy immediately; apparently it wasn't enough.  After Brooke didn't come home from a run one Sunday evening, Julissa went looking for her.

"I got a call from my wife and she was screaming, I couldn't even understand her," Kevin said.  "I knew something was wrong, I never heard her scream like that, and I said 'Julissa please slow down,' and I heard 'gun,' I heard 'blood.'"

When Kevin and Brant got to the park moments later, Kevin thought Brooke might still have a fighting chance.

"I remember saying, 'Oh my God.'  I threw my phone down while I was on with 911 and I ran to her.  I checked for a pulse but didn't feel a pulse and there was just a little mark, I really couldn't tell, the back of her head," he said of the wound. "And I looked into her eyes and her eyes were halfway open like she was sleeping with her eyes open."

Brooke died and Kevin can't get that horrific picture out of his head: his wife cradling their daughter in the backseat of the car while the family sped toward help; Brooke falling off a gurney before being loaded into a waiting ambulance; and a bench inside the Joplin Police Department where Kevin and Brant sat handcuffed while Brooke was dying.


No mention of the wife in part 2 of the story; obviously she didn't get arrested. And it sounds like, by his own admission, his daughter was already dead, and he was acting out in panicked denial. But if the EMTs saw what he saw, maybe they'd already decided it was too late for her.

I can imagine someone going out of their heads with grief and having to be restrained, and getting manhandled wouldn't have been any better than getting pepper-sprayed. Maybe the cops did over-react. But what do they have to work with?: a girl dead from a gunshot, removed from the scene, no indication of the whereabouts of the gun, and two (maybe three?) adults going crazy and behaving in a manner that is at best confrontational. Bad situation all around.
 
2013-09-28 05:42:55 PM

psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.


As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?
 
2013-09-28 05:57:02 PM
Eh, I've seen scenes where people are pretty hysterical and out of control b/c a loved one is in medical distress. As a cop, I can see using some level of force to ensure that the EMT is able to do their job, and I'm also ok with taking someone to jail to let them cool off a bit before attending to the person who will hopefully be at the hospital. Having that person interfere with care for their loved one, ride in the ambulance, or just get in the way at the ER isn't really an option, and care of the patient needs to be the priority.  The charges are effectively a way to ensure that you don't get hit with a false arrest lawsuit, but basically some minor thing that even if the prosecutor doesn't elect to go after, ensure the person has some chill time before returning to society at large.
 
2013-09-28 07:16:35 PM

lizyrd: I don't get it. How was anything I said the slightest bit ambiguous, let alone neutral? fark with EMS when they're trying to provide care, expect to be arrested.

"Huh, huh, huh, you look like [random Futurama character]!"


It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.

/you sound Vulcan
 
2013-09-28 07:56:30 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.


If you want to ignore emotion, you can be blunt and incredibly cruel at the same time: Rather than calling 911 and administering Pre-Arrival medical aid, throwing their daughter in the car and then driving her to an ambulance station, THEN assaulting the crew trying to render aid and find out WTF happened (Which, ya know....is part of their assessment.) likely removed ANY hope of their daughter surviving even intact enough to maintain a pulse on her own and spend the rest of her life on a ventilator and G-Tube.

If you want to ignore emotion and be a dick.

/this is a horrible situation.
 
2013-09-28 09:00:45 PM
The guy saw his daughter nearly dead.

His baby girl for 16 years.

I think a little hysterical behavior can be calmed down other than with pepper spray and threats.

/farking pigs.
 
2013-09-28 09:12:35 PM

MycroftHolmes: psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.

As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?


You may have read my post as a quote, and therefore the bold (read:important) part may have been lost on you. I see you named yourself after the least observant of the duo, so maybe I'm wrong.

Also, we all need to come up with a name to call people who indict others of projecting while projecting onto the projector. Superprojector? Damnit I'm stuck in a recursive thingaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghghghghhghhhhhhh

MIND=BLOWN
 
2013-09-28 09:23:21 PM

Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: Semantic Warrior: psychopathic tendencies: There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

Unless his hysterics preempted and possibly caused the sliding off, and/or  his child had been shot without positive proof that it was self inflicted.  As I stated earlier, nothing in the article presented the fate of the firearm used, so yeah, if I was a cop (when I was an EMT) you better believe that not knowing exactly where it was would compromise the safety of the scene.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney he carries his child's body and brains to a gurney. Nothing.

That might serve my point better. The real issue I have is again in bold.

Without any statement from the police department, however, we only have this guy's version of events.  Most likely the father has omitted some details.  Reading the story only mentions the son was pepper sprayed first, but the way it's written, I could infer he (the son) was just standing there while his father was being hysterical and the police arrived on scene, immediately sprayed the son, then went for the father.  I doubt that's what happened.


I agree. What I take umbrage with is the 3.5 hour detainment of both parties and the subsequent criminal charges. The cop may have been perfect on the bars, but he borked the dismount.

Maybe both the father and son were hysterical for 3.49 hours, and at 3.5 hours they calmed down and the police immediately released them. However, I doubt that is the case either.
 
2013-09-28 09:51:42 PM

hardinparamedic: HindiDiscoMonster: It's your lack of ability to understand emotion that I was going for... could have used Spock as well.

If you want to ignore emotion, you can be blunt and incredibly cruel at the same time: Rather than calling 911 and administering Pre-Arrival medical aid, throwing their daughter in the car and then driving her to an ambulance station meeting the ambulance somewhere between where they were and the police station they ended up in front of, THEN assaulting the crew trying to render aid and find out WTF happened (Which, ya know....is part of their assessment.) likely removed ANY hope of their daughter surviving even intact enough to maintain a pulse on her own and spend the rest of her life on a ventilator and G-Tube.

If you want to ignore emotion and be a dick.

/this is a horrible situation.


Strikethrough: FTFY
Bold: 1. I don't believe the police any further than I could throw them with my telekinetic abilities and 2. Assault now = screaming in emotional distress? - new one for me.

/I have no telekinetic abilities
//Ambulance crew has not weighed in on this issue, so there is no way to know if an assault actually happened, or if it's police CYA as usual.
 
2013-09-28 10:22:43 PM

psychopathic tendencies: I agree. What I take umbrage with is the 3.5 hour detainment of both parties and the subsequent criminal charges. The cop may have been perfect on the bars, but he borked the dismount.

Maybe both the father and son were hysterical for 3.49 hours, and at 3.5 hours they calmed down and the police immediately released them. However, I doubt that is the case either.


Perhaps Daddy and Sonny were shiatfaced and needed a little coffee time.  Maybe the cops wanted to take a little time to see if there were any other Daughters/Sisters who had committed suicide in the past.
 
2013-09-28 10:26:22 PM

hardinparamedic: Quite frankly, if someone DOESN'T have a pulse, has a midline gunshot wound to the head, or has explosive cranial decompression, the American College of Surgeons and the NAEMSP do not recommend any resuscitative measures, as survival to discharge is nearly 0%.


That is correct. No spontaneous respirations and no pulse? We are done here. It does take a minute to check that.....but not much more. Of course it's amazing how long on minute can be.

Hopefully there is a dashcam of the whole incident.
 
2013-09-28 10:38:21 PM
EMS assault laws by state.

Missouri

As used in this section, "emergency personnel"
means any paid or volunteer firefighter,
emergency room or trauma center personnel, or
emergency medical technician.
A person commits the crime
of assault of
emergency personnel in the first degree if such
person attempts to kill or knowingly causes or
attempts to cause serious physical injury to
emergency personnel.
Assault of emergency personnel in the first
degree is a class A felony.

A person commits the crime of assault of
emergency personnel in the second degree if
such person:

(1) Knowingly causes or attempts to cause
physical injury to emergency personnel by
means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(2) Knowingly causes or a
ttempts to cause
physical injury to emergency personnel by
Effective
means other than a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(3) Recklessly causes serious physical injury to
emergency personnel; or
(4) While in an intoxicated condition or under
the influence of controlled substances or drugs,
operates a motor vehicle or vessel in this state
and when so operating, acts with criminal
negligence to cause physical injury emergency
personnel;
(5) Acts with criminal negligence to cause
physical injury to emergency
personnel by
means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument;
(6) Purposely or recklessly places emergency
personnel in apprehension of immediate serious
physical injury
; or
(7) Acts with criminal negligence to create a
substantial risk of death or serious physical
injury to emergency personnel.
Assault of emergency personnel is a class B
felony unless committed pursuant to subdivision
(2), (5), (6), or (7) of subsection 1 of this section
in which case it is a class C felony.

A person commits the crme of assault of
emergency personnel in the third degree if:
(1) Such person recklessly causes physical injury
to emergency personnel;
(2) Such person purposely places emergency
personnel in apprehension of immediate physical
injury;
(3) Such person knowingly causes or attempts to
cause physical contact with emergency personnel
without the consent of the emergency personnel
.
Assault of emergency personnel in the third
degree is a class A misdemeanor
 
2013-09-28 11:23:33 PM

psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: psychopathic tendencies: MycroftHolmes: There are certainly interpretations of the article that would suggest inappropriate use of police force, but really, the majority of interpretations would support the individuals trying to control the scene.  I would suspect that the charges go away as soon as the risk of lawsuits go away.  But pepper spraying a hysterical person who was, at minimum, creating tension and confusion (I somehow distrust the accuracy pf the account of a person who had just experienced the trauma he had, and who had admittedly lost his composure) to control the scene and prevent escalation or interference is absolutely within bounds.

Go on a ride along for a couple of days with your local EMS.  You will change your opinion.

There is nothing on earth that would cause me to believe a man needed pepper sprayed, arrested and criminally charged for being hysterical as his child's body and brains slide off a gurney. Nothing.

I see it's not yet clear that the issue is less 'control of the scene' as it is the continued punishment once containment had been achieved. THAT is the problem.

As I mentioned, I would bet that the charges are leverage to protect the police department from a lawsuit.  If they stick, I would be very surprized.

And there are a great many situations where I can see justification for the police to use the most expedient non-lethal forces available to restrain and subdue a adult male while there is an emergency situation being addressed.  I love the way that you judge that the police were using the pepper spray punitively.  Were we reading the same article, or do you have some information that the rest of us don't have (I mean, besides your imagination and projections)?

You may have read my post as a quote, and therefore the bold (read:important) part may have been lost on you. I see you named yourself after the least observant of the duo, so maybe I'm wrong.

Also, we all need to come up with a name to call people w ...


OK, so in your world, you think that police using force justified at the time (and yes, it could very easily be justified) that did not result in charges will not immediately result in a lawsuit?  I assume that you are just skipping that part of my response each time.  Logic goes like this-if force was required, then a law was being broken.  If not, then force was used on individuals not breaking any law.

You don't seem to be arguing any longer that force might not have been required.  But you seem to be unable to make that logical leap as to why the police (or DA rather) are pressing charges.  Go on, buddy, you can make it.

If you are interfering with EMS (and from the father's self told description, it was very likely that he was) in a confrontational way, then yes, he was breaking the law.  Keep in mind, all the charges being brought were misdemeanors, so it is not like they are throwing the book at him.
 
2013-09-29 12:06:36 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: I think cops should be pepper-sprayed and tased once a month just so they remember how it feels. And shot once a year in a non-critical body part. Like the head.


If I wasn't cripplingly poor I would sponsor you for a month of TF.
 
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