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(ABC)   Inconvenient: 737 pilot suffers in-flight heart attack that ultimately proves fatal. Convenient: co-pilot gets help landing from a passenger who just happens to train 737 pilots for a living   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 99
    More: Hero, emergency landing, heart attacks, KOMO, trains, passengers, landing  
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8703 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Sep 2013 at 2:17 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-28 05:47:41 AM
Did all that cocaine finally kill Denzel, or did the sight of one of those motherfarking snakes on the motherfarking plane scare him to death?  Good thing the co-pilot didn't have the fish and Striker was there to save the day.

Oh, and always bet on black.
 
2013-09-28 06:14:40 AM
Local tv station tonight reported he was over 300 pounds
 
2013-09-28 06:21:52 AM
That's when I developed my drinking problem.
 
2013-09-28 06:33:36 AM

Mr. Shabooboo: They had to get him to a Hospital...


A hospital? What is it?
 
2013-09-28 06:46:33 AM

GuidoDelConfuso: I'm guessing that subby read the detail about the pilot trainer in some other article and attempted to submit that. When it was refused as a previously submitted (and not listed) article, he just went and Googled the flight number and submitted the first article that turned up instead without even reading it.

As for the admin who approved it, I dunno... Blame it on the bourbon, maybe?


That's why you use this trick.

/Unless the submission thingee accounts for that, these days.
 
2013-09-28 06:54:20 AM

The Southern Dandy: Um....why would a co-pilot need help landing the plane?  That's kinda disturbing.


One to steer, the other one for controls, buttons, and talking to ATC. One could do it in a pinch, but it's better to have two,
 
2013-09-28 07:01:10 AM

tjsands1118: penywisexx: The article linked in the story mentions a passenger who was on board helping the copilot. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-bound-flight-lands-in-Bois e -after-pilot-suffers-heart-attack-225453132.html

"The two doctors and an off-duty United Airlines pilot were among the 161 people aboard the flight. The off-duty pilot aided the first officer - who is also a trained pilot - in landing the plane while the physicians performed CPR. '

Still no mention of anyone training pilots. There's a trained pilot, which isn't the same a a pilot trainer.


He aided the first officer?
I thought he aided the co-pilot?!

Now I'm really confused.

I do understand, however, that "co-" implies doing something together. Like co-signer. Doesn't make the first any less.
I think the terms are "captain" and "co-pilot", not "pilot" and "co-pilot".

I had thought that the first officer was part of the cabin crew.
So what happened to the co-pilot?!


/and who IS on first?
 
2013-09-28 07:05:28 AM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: Would have been a better story if there had been a medical technician on the manifest who could of, I don't know ... saved the pilot.


If it was the "widowmaker" artery or Left Anterior Coronary Artery, that feed the heart muscle itself, unless your chest is cracked open on an operating table your chances get to be nil and none. Something like 1% of patients who roll into ERs with that blockage survive, and that's only if it's not a full blockage.
 
2013-09-28 07:10:40 AM
Surely the co-pilot should be able to land the plane without any help. He got in the cockpit he knew what he was getting into.
 
2013-09-28 07:23:10 AM

Resident Muslim: tjsands1118: penywisexx: The article linked in the story mentions a passenger who was on board helping the copilot. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-bound-flight-lands-in-Bois e -after-pilot-suffers-heart-attack-225453132.html

"The two doctors and an off-duty United Airlines pilot were among the 161 people aboard the flight. The off-duty pilot aided the first officer - who is also a trained pilot - in landing the plane while the physicians performed CPR. '

Still no mention of anyone training pilots. There's a trained pilot, which isn't the same a a pilot trainer.

He aided the first officer?
I thought he aided the co-pilot?!

Now I'm really confused.

I do understand, however, that "co-" implies doing something together. Like co-signer. Doesn't make the first any less.
I think the terms are "captain" and "co-pilot", not "pilot" and "co-pilot".

I had thought that the first officer was part of the cabin crew.
So what happened to the co-pilot?!


/and who IS on first?


The flight instructor is the pilot. for the remainder of the flight, or at least until they touch down. The junior becomes the co-pilot, IIRC. When the trainer took a seat in the cockpit, he had seniority, and I'm sure protocol asked him to take over due to the emotional nature of the situation. Which any pilot in his right mind would do,

Mind you, my learning comes from books on the matter, listening to radio chatter, and interviewing a quite a few pilots in my day for a book that never got off the ground. All pre 9/11 I may have to dig that stuff up and see what it still valid. Maybe start working on it again. Kinda cool. Everything from crop dusters to 757's.
 
2013-09-28 07:30:44 AM
Captain and First Officer are the airline terms for the pilot and copilot (no the fo is NOT a cabin crew, the glorified name given to the head flight attendant is often things like "purser").

The FAA uses Pilot in command and second in command.

Redundancy is only part of the reason for two pilots.   There are a lot of things that need to be done.   While a single pilot could do it himself, a qualified additional pilot would help.

Most likely the instructor pilot was most likely a full fledged pilot on the airline assigned to training.   United (at least the old-line United) used to let these guys out to fly a real airplane once and a while (I used to meet one on layovers in DC).    This one was most likely a non-revenue passenger (flying for nothing or close to it either on personal travel or corporate business).    It would be uncommon not to know what  non-rev pilots you have on board.   The guy who actually was manipulating the controls on United 232 (the DC-10 that lost all flight controls and was flown using differential thrust on the remaining two engines) was one of these.
 
2013-09-28 07:43:15 AM

Resident Muslim: tjsands1118: penywisexx: The article linked in the story mentions a passenger who was on board helping the copilot. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-bound-flight-lands-in-Bois e -after-pilot-suffers-heart-attack-225453132.html

"The two doctors and an off-duty United Airlines pilot were among the 161 people aboard the flight. The off-duty pilot aided the first officer - who is also a trained pilot - in landing the plane while the physicians performed CPR. '

Still no mention of anyone training pilots. There's a trained pilot, which isn't the same a a pilot trainer.

He aided the first officer?
I thought he aided the co-pilot?!

Now I'm really confused.

I do understand, however, that "co-" implies doing something together. Like co-signer. Doesn't make the first any less.
I think the terms are "captain" and "co-pilot", not "pilot" and "co-pilot".

I had thought that the first officer was part of the cabin crew.
So what happened to the co-pilot?!


/and who IS on first


And to clarify:
Captain=First Officer=Pilot. Same designation. The man who has final word on the plane leaving the gate and pointing it skyward.

Co-captain=second officer=copilot. Is capable of making the same calls as the captain, may not have enough seniority to sit in the chair, but is fully capable to operate the aircraft in nearly any condition

if the pilot is dropping a load or stretching his legs on a long haul flight. Or even dozing for a few minutes on an LA to Melbourne flight, I don't have a problem with the 2nd officer taking the wheel for a few.
 
2013-09-28 07:53:10 AM

Gyrfalcon: dbirchall: My wife said it seems like there's always one passenger on the plane who's a pilot and can help fly.

I suggested that yeah, people in the industry fly for cheap or free, so it's not uncommon for them to be taking a flight to work or whatever.

She didn't accept that answer, and thinks it's deliberate, kind of like the Federal Air Marshals, and that they actually plan it so every flight has a pilot aboard as a passenger.  Yay, I married a conspiracy theorist. :)

Your wife is nuts. Between jump-seaters going back & forth to their hubs, dead-heading back home after work, taking cheap flights on vacation, and otherwise doing all the traveling that pilots get to do that us hoipolloi don't, it would be stranger to find a flight that DIDN'T have a few spare pilots onboard than one that did.

My sister the former pilot often said the hardest thing about no longer being a pilot was having to wean herself off all the cheap air travel she used to get.


Yup. Even if the plane is full, they can still hop in the third seat of the cockpit. I work CRJs, and it happens more often then not. Worst part is, when they do, I usually have to dump 300 lbs of sandbags in the back to balance it all out. Even if the guy is just going to Memphis for some ribs.

But flight benefits are great. On my days off, I can fly anywhere, even if it's just for a certain kind of food or beer. Helps with keeping up with my old college pals, too. Flying to Europe for $60 is also insane. It becomes an addiction.
 
2013-09-28 07:54:08 AM

The Southern Dandy: Um....why would a co-pilot need help landing the plane?  That's kinda disturbing.


I know, right? Just learn to multi-task

lnx.737homecockpit.com
 
DuX
2013-09-28 08:05:01 AM
The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

/He's Oveur Macho Grande now.
 
2013-09-28 08:12:12 AM
It looks like the bit about the passenger being a trainer is based on information other passengers gave the station in Seattle that covered the story when they got there. That station got quoted  in a couple other articles, but a lot of articles left that bit out.   Folks who were on the flight say the guy looked awful young to be a trainer, so maybe he was a trainee and the passengers misspoke?
 
2013-09-28 08:20:17 AM
And another thing about the pilot who died, (bless him) Deep Vein Thrombosis is no joke. Form a clot in your leg for sitting too long like pilots tend to do, it breaks loose and moves to an artery in your heart or head, and it's light out.
 
2013-09-28 08:21:48 AM

abhorrent1: The Southern Dandy: Um....why would a co-pilot need help landing the plane?  That's kinda disturbing.

I know, right? Just learn to multi-task

[lnx.737homecockpit.com image 850x562]


You forgot the overhead consoles.
 
2013-09-28 08:33:05 AM

This is but one version for the 737. They can be customised

farm5.static.flickr.com
 
2013-09-28 08:54:00 AM
Obviously the first officer *could* land alone, but especially after the captain bought the farm I'm not surprised that another pilot's services were much appreciated.  Planes are complicated, and the FO had to be stressed out given the circumstances.  It's safer and more comfortable for everyone if there are two pilots on the flight deck, especially with the navigation and communication tasks associated with an emergency landing.

I recall reading that the FAA once ran the numbers and the probability is fairly good that at least one passenger on a given flight is a commercial pilot - and in fact, that he or she probably has the correct type rating to fly either the same plane or very similar for a living.  This would be especially likely with the Boeing 737, which is the most popular airline plane ever.
 
2013-09-28 08:59:24 AM

GungFu: Erm , why didn't the passenger who trains 737 pilots for a living just fly the farking plane? Instead, he 'helps' the co-pilot?

What? Is he Jewish and it was a Sunday or some shiat? He could verbally assist but couldn't touch the controls? He had no arms or legs?

Headline makes no sense.


Co-pilot was in charge of the ship when the pilot went down. FAA regs. That's the assignments. Had the co-pilot asked for him (the instructor) to take over, no doubt he would have. Some people work in strange ways. Some are complete professionals. When he landed, he probably went straight to the bar, but he got everyone on the ground safe. He did his job. I think under the situation, major kudos all around to all involved, from the instructor to didn't go John Wayne when he realized the co-pilot was in control, so he took over the job of second, the the FA's who kept the passengers calm. And from all reports, the medical personnel who were passengers on board were doing their level best, and could not be faulted in any way.

A rotten situation, but could have been so much worse. There was an extra pilot and medical personnel on board. You can't ask for more at 37.000 feet..
 
2013-09-28 08:59:25 AM
Apparently, God WASN'T his co-pilot
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-09-28 09:01:27 AM

DuX: The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

/He's Oveur Macho Grande now.


I cannot watch that to this day without laughing so loud it's comical. One of the truly legendary movie lines.
The serious look on his face while he delivers the line and the shocked look on the kids face.......priceless.
 
2013-09-28 09:13:04 AM

abhorrent1: The Southern Dandy: Um....why would a co-pilot need help landing the plane?  That's kinda disturbing.

I know, right? Just learn to multi-task


How do you stand up to go to the bathroom when in ine if those seats? Do pilots carry a gallon jug like truckers do?

Also I'm sure that was a fun job hauling out a person from that front seat.
 
2013-09-28 09:17:22 AM

Paris1127: It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether.


It's an entirely different kind of flying.
 
2013-09-28 09:20:54 AM

melopene: they call him the co-pilot


Actual  they call him the "pilot not flying" because pilots alternate flying each leg. I know folks love to think the copilot is a half level above student pilot but when I was flying it wasn't uncommon to have more experience than some of the captains I flew with.
 
2013-09-28 09:37:27 AM

edmo: melopene: they call him the co-pilot

Actual  they call him the "pilot not flying" because pilots alternate flying each leg. I know folks love to think the copilot is a half level above student pilot but when I was flying it wasn't uncommon to have more experience than some of the captains I flew with.


Or the pilot flying when the other pilot has to take a squirt from all the coffee he's been drinking.
 
2013-09-28 09:59:02 AM
Let's see, the event took place in Boise, the newsreaders are in New York and the reporter is at Reagan National.  Why?  So we can see what an airport and aircraft look like?  Or is it for those of us, who have just arrived from the 12th century?
 
2013-09-28 09:59:29 AM
Pilot shouldnt have had the fish.
 
2013-09-28 10:00:24 AM

PainfulItching: This is but one version for the 737. They can be customised


Well yeah. But how many are customized with the thought of only having one pilot? I'm guessing none.
 
2013-09-28 10:24:56 AM
Too bad I wasn't there. I could have flipped switches and worked the radios while the first officer landed, and while the off-duty pilot and all the stewardesses tried to stop me from flipping switches without knowing what they do, and stop me  radioing the tower to demand ale and whores on the tarmac.
 
2013-09-28 10:25:32 AM

PainfulItching: And to clarify:Captain=First Officer=Pilot. Same designation. The man who has final word on the plane leaving the gate and pointing it skyward.Co-captain=second officer=copilot. Is capable of making the same calls as the captain, may not have enough seniority to sit in the chair, but is fully capable to operate the aircraft in nearly any condition


Nope. Captain /= First Officer. What you call the Co-pilot is the First Officer. Second Officer is the term that applies to the third guy in the cockpit who used to monitor the engines and such. He got replaced by a computer in new designs about 1980.

Nobody ever refers to the captain as "the pilot" because the plane has two pilots. One of the pilots is the captain, the other is the FO.
 
2013-09-28 10:32:01 AM
So a guy that was trained to operate a plane saved his own life by helping fly it when the pilot went down.

Cool story bro
 
2013-09-28 10:38:11 AM

costermonger: PainfulItching: And to clarify:Captain=First Officer=Pilot. Same designation. The man who has final word on the plane leaving the gate and pointing it skyward.Co-captain=second officer=copilot. Is capable of making the same calls as the captain, may not have enough seniority to sit in the chair, but is fully capable to operate the aircraft in nearly any condition

Nope. Captain /= First Officer. What you call the Co-pilot is the First Officer. Second Officer is the term that applies to the third guy in the cockpit who used to monitor the engines and such. He got replaced by a computer in new designs about 1980.

Nobody ever refers to the captain as "the pilot" because the plane has two pilots. One of the pilots is the captain, the other is the FO.


I stand corrected. I double checked myself before I posted, but not well enough evidently. My bad.
 
2013-09-28 11:21:36 AM

Funbags: [i.imgur.com image 470x300]


what I was remembering, plus a different kind of CPR ...

filmfanatic.org
 
2013-09-28 11:42:28 AM
I've got to concentrate, concentrate, concentrate, concentrate.  I've got to concentrate, concentrate, concentrate, concentrate.  Hello... echo... echo... echo... echo.

Pinch-hitting for Pedro Bourbon, Manny Mota, Mota, Mota, Mota

*crack of bat*
 
2013-09-28 11:47:36 AM

rnatalie: The guy who actually was manipulating the controls on United 232 (the DC-10 that lost all flight controls and was flown using differential thrust on the remaining two engines) was one of these.


And that is indeed the guy I want training other people full time. That story still blows me away.
 
2013-09-28 11:58:12 AM

Weatherkiss: Mr. Shabooboo: They had to get him to a Hospital...

A hospital? What is it?


It's a big building with patients. But that's not important right now.
 
2013-09-28 12:34:14 PM

sandbar67: Haven't read the thread yet, but has anyone quoted that "Airplane" movie? That would be funny!


Shirley you can't be serious!
 
2013-09-28 01:10:14 PM

PainfulItching: Resident Muslim: tjsands1118: penywisexx: The article linked in the story mentions a passenger who was on board helping the copilot. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-bound-flight-lands-in-Bois e -after-pilot-suffers-heart-attack-225453132.html

"The two doctors and an off-duty United Airlines pilot were among the 161 people aboard the flight. The off-duty pilot aided the first officer - who is also a trained pilot - in landing the plane while the physicians performed CPR. '

Still no mention of anyone training pilots. There's a trained pilot, which isn't the same a a pilot trainer.

He aided the first officer?
I thought he aided the co-pilot?!

Now I'm really confused.

I do understand, however, that "co-" implies doing something together. Like co-signer. Doesn't make the first any less.
I think the terms are "captain" and "co-pilot", not "pilot" and "co-pilot".

I had thought that the first officer was part of the cabin crew.
So what happened to the co-pilot?!


/and who IS on first?

The flight instructor is the pilot. for the remainder of the flight, or at least until they touch down. The junior becomes the co-pilot, IIRC. When the trainer took a seat in the cockpit, he had seniority, and I'm sure protocol asked him to take over due to the emotional nature of the situation. Which any pilot in his right mind would do,

Mind you, my learning comes from books on the matter, listening to radio chatter, and interviewing a quite a few pilots in my day for a book that never got off the ground. All pre 9/11 I may have to dig that stuff up and see what it still valid. Maybe start working on it again. Kinda cool. Everything from crop dusters to 757's.


Cool.
Thanks.

Makes sense. Though I'm not sure if the trainer would take seniority if he isn't from the original crew.

/not even book learning, just talking to people and watching movies
 
2013-09-28 01:38:11 PM

positronica: Um, the linked article and video both make no mention of what the subby describes in the headline.  Why?


Came here to say this.

/farking idiots
 
2013-09-28 02:15:12 PM

dbirchall: My wife said it seems like there's always one passenger on the plane who's a pilot and can help fly.


I thought it was common practice to put a second pilot in the cabin - just for situations like this.

Silly me.
 
2013-09-28 02:18:26 PM

PainfulItching: The flight instructor is the pilot. for the remainder of the flight, or at least until they touch down. The junior becomes the co-pilot, IIRC. When the trainer took a seat in the cockpit, he had seniority, and I'm sure protocol asked him to take over due to the emotional nature of the situation. Which any pilot in his right mind would do,


I must vociferously disagree with you, although I will also admit I have no first hand knowledge of the operating practices in such a matter.  However, I would posit that the First Officer becomes the Officer in Charge when the Captain is incapacitated.  The First Officer is fully capable of flying and landing the aircraft.  The instructor, regardless of his age or experience, is (if you will) an invited guest in the cockpit. He would take orders from the First Officer unless the FO has wet his pants and agrees to turn the aircraft over to the trainer.  I suspect to do such a thing would be a death knell to the FO's career.

That said,

>Jack: What's going on? We have a right to know the truth!
>Rumack: [to the passengers] All right, I'm going to level with you all. But what's most important now is that you remain calm. There is no reason to panic.
[Rumack's nose grows an inch long]
>Rumack: Now, it is true that one of the crew members is ill... slightly ill.
[Rumack's nose continues to grow longer and longer, à la Pinocchio]
>Rumack: But the other two pilots... they're just fine. They're at the controls flying the plane... free to pursue a life of religious fulfillment.
 
2013-09-28 02:54:42 PM
I saw someone on one of those air-crash shows saying that if necessary the auto-pilot could land the most modern jets. But maybe he was just the type of moran who'd crash a plane, and that explains why they invited him to talk about potential air disasters.

/"This guys all over the place. 900 feet, up to 1400 feet. What an asshole!"
//best fundamental attribution error joke evar
 
2013-09-28 07:28:07 PM

HisBoyLeroy: Doesn't look like they used the AED which should have been available. CPR is great, but getting your heart zapped will increase your survival by a whole bunch more.


There was an article in my local paper last week that mentioned only 10% of people who suffer a full on cardiac arrest outside of a hospital survive. Down from 12.5% a few years ago.

It also stated that CPR in such a case is not effective - they need to be zapped within 3 minutes.
 
2013-09-28 07:35:03 PM

PainfulItching: Mart Laar's beard shaver: Would have been a better story if there had been a medical technician on the manifest who could of, I don't know ... saved the pilot.

If it was the "widowmaker" artery or Left Anterior Coronary Artery, that feed the heart muscle itself, unless your chest is cracked open on an operating table your chances get to be nil and none. Something like 1% of patients who roll into ERs with that blockage survive, and that's only if it's not a full blockage.


Is an unhealthy widowmaker artery something that can be detected before catastrophe strikes? I've been thinking of having my heart health checked out lately since I'm now an old man - almost 52.
 
2013-09-28 08:08:22 PM
So what happened over Nacho Grande?
 
2013-09-28 09:39:14 PM

Rodeodoc: I must vociferously disagree with you, although I will also admit I have no first hand knowledge of the operating practices in such a matter.  However, I would posit that the First Officer becomes the Officer in Charge when the Captain is incapacitated.  The First Officer is fully capable of flying and landing the aircraft.  The instructor, regardless of his age or experience, is (if you will) an invited guest in the cockpit. He would take orders from the First Officer unless the FO has wet his pants and agrees to turn the aircraft over to the trainer.  I suspect to do such a thing would be a death knell to the FO's career.


None of the coverage of this has indicated that the instructor was an airline employee, which means they are probably a simulator instructor. That would mean they're not legally able to fly the real deal, but they'd be incredibly useful as an assistant.

Anyway, nobody is going to take the lead role from the FO in this situation. You're not crew unless you were crew at the pre-trip briefing.
 
2013-09-29 12:04:05 PM
I had the lasagna.
 
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