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(Slate)   The House GOP's debt plan is essentially a plan for turning the United States into Europe, but this time they think that's a good thing   (slate.com) divider line 146
    More: Fail, White House, Europe, GOP, United States, Obama, House Republicans, bank regulation, House of Lords  
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2479 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Sep 2013 at 4:05 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-26 01:18:48 PM
Say it with me everyone - "constitutional crisis".
 
2013-09-26 01:25:01 PM
So... they're going Greek?
 
2013-09-26 01:27:21 PM
I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd
 
2013-09-26 01:28:29 PM

cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd


Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.
 
2013-09-26 01:31:08 PM

DamnYankees: cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd

Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.


Thats how Washington operates

Many laws that are passed are filled with junk not part of the subject matter
 
2013-09-26 01:31:59 PM

DamnYankees: Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.


It's only insane because the little man that lives in your thumb isn't telling you that the CIA is implanting listening devices in your wall sockets.
 
2013-09-26 01:34:35 PM

cman: Thats how Washington operates

Many laws that are passed are filled with junk not part of the subject matter


This is the concern - this is becoming normalized, as you are now manifesting. Make no mistake, what's happening now is decidedly NOT normal. A negotiation is where Side A wants X, and Side B doesn't want X, so Side A offers something to B to get him to go along.

That's not what's happening here. Side A and B both want X! But Side A also knows that he can withhold X as a threat, hoping to get B to give him more in exchange for literally nothing other than NOT hurting A and B. It's a suicide bomb.

This is is no way normal governance, and treating it as such is dangerous since it legitimizes it.
 
2013-09-26 01:35:35 PM
Tort reform at the federal level? Not very statesy-rightsy, fellas.
 
2013-09-26 01:40:34 PM

cman: Thats how Washington operates


No it is not. This is not routine. It is not normal. Raising the debt limit is not a favor. It is not a concession. It is something that must be done no matter who is in the White House.
 
2013-09-26 01:41:19 PM

cman: DamnYankees: cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd

Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.

Thats how Washington operates

Many laws that are passed are filled with junk not part of the subject matter


Washington should absolutely not operate on ginning up hostage crises so you can pass unrelated issues under duress.
 
2013-09-26 01:46:47 PM

cman: Thats how Washington operates


As the article says:
A bargain is when Obama wants something the GOP doesn't want (universal preschool, say) and then the GOP says "look we'll do it, but only if you do X, Y, and Z for us." Increasing the debt ceiling isn't like that. It isn't a pet policy priority of Obama's and it isn't something House Republicans oppose. It's something both sides agree is necessary to avert a legal and financial disaster.
 
2013-09-26 01:53:10 PM

DamnYankees: That's not what's happening here. Side A and B both want X! But Side A also knows that he can withhold X as a threat, hoping to get B to give him more in exchange for literally nothing other than NOT hurting A and B. It's a suicide bomb.


4.bp.blogspot.com

Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?
 
2013-09-26 02:22:40 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: cman: Thats how Washington operates

No it is not. This is not routine. It is not normal. Raising the debt limit is not a favor. It is not a concession. It is something that must be done no matter who is in the White House.


And that's why Obama doing anything but refusing to even talk about concessions would be a horrible mistake. Now is the time to set the precedent that this shiat won't fly.
 
2013-09-26 02:25:48 PM

MrBallou: Dusk-You-n-Me: cman: Thats how Washington operates

No it is not. This is not routine. It is not normal. Raising the debt limit is not a favor. It is not a concession. It is something that must be done no matter who is in the White House.

And that's why Obama doing anything but refusing to even talk about concessions would be a horrible mistake. Now is the time to set the precedent that this shiat won't fly.


That's what he's doing.

The GOP actually has a smart play here - pass a debt ceiling increase with some stuff in it, stuff that Democrats might actually support. For example, just pass a debt ceiling increase which also repeals the medical device tax in Obamacare. Enough Democrats oppose that tax in isolation that it might pass the Senate. Then Obama has to choose what to do; veto and perhaps cause a default, or swallow it and keep the principle alive that he can be threatened in exchange for defaults.

The GOP's current proposal is laugh out loud stupid, but if they played this better they could walk home with a win. The GOP might just be too insane for that, though.
 
2013-09-26 02:30:00 PM

DamnYankees: The GOP's current proposal is laugh out loud stupid, but if they played this better they could walk home with a win.


This statement could be applicable to pretty much everything the GOP has done since Obama won the Democrats' primary for '08.
 
2013-09-26 02:30:31 PM

sprawl15: DamnYankees: The GOP's current proposal is laugh out loud stupid, but if they played this better they could walk home with a win.

This statement could be applicable to pretty much everything the GOP has done since Obama won the Democrats' primary for '08.


True enough.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-26 03:22:35 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: So... they're going Greek?


Yes, but publicly and not in an airport restroom.
 
2013-09-26 03:59:15 PM
The Republicans should just ask Obama to resign.
 
2013-09-26 04:07:44 PM
So this means I can retire when I'm 50, right?
 
2013-09-26 04:08:31 PM

cman: Thats how Washington operates


It is now.

The debt ceiling was never an issue until the GOP sold their tiny, shriveled, anemic soul to the teabaggers.
 
2013-09-26 04:08:36 PM
I read an article on this, this morning.  They basically included a thing in there about how every executive effort that included an expenditure of 100 million or more had to be signed off on by Congress before it could be implemented.

That alone should be enough to provoke an explosion of outrage on behalf of all politicians on both sides of the aisle.  That's quite literally an effort by the Congress to usurp the power of the Executive Branch.
 
2013-09-26 04:10:17 PM

cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd


Medical Tort Reform has been enacted in several states (you can look up Florida if you'd like). In NO case, I repeat, NO case, has tort reform slowed the increase in medical costs or insurance costs.

That's NO case. It has never, ever, helped reduce costs to consumers..
 
2013-09-26 04:13:12 PM

Infernalist: I read an article on this, this morning.  They basically included a thing in there about how every executive effort that included an expenditure of 100 million or more had to be signed off on by Congress before it could be implemented.

That alone should be enough to provoke an explosion of outrage on behalf of all politicians on both sides of the aisle.  That's quite literally an effort by the Congress to usurp the power of the Executive Branch.


I understand all that but what you need to understand is that destroying the balance of power in government and ignoring the Constitution are okay if you are Republican.
 
2013-09-26 04:14:35 PM
The whole notion that they can pass a budget with a bunch of spending and then not pay for that spending unless demands are met is absurd.
 
2013-09-26 04:14:39 PM

Shostie: DamnYankees: That's not what's happening here. Side A and B both want X! But Side A also knows that he can withhold X as a threat, hoping to get B to give him more in exchange for literally nothing other than NOT hurting A and B. It's a suicide bomb.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 850x585]

Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?


It was to be announced at the Party Congress on Monday. As you know, the Premier loves surprises.
 
2013-09-26 04:15:01 PM

cman: DamnYankees: cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd

Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.

Thats how Washington operates

Many laws that are passed are filled with junk not part of the subject matter


usually they're bartered out with compromises. you give me this, I give you that.
not with a gun to the economy's head and a laundry list of demands.
 
2013-09-26 04:16:31 PM

lemurs: The whole notion that they can pass a budget with a bunch of spending and then not pay for that spending unless demands are met is absurd.


which is pretty much what the constitution and the pertaining SCOTUS rulings have said.
that even congress doesn't have the power not to pay it's bills as passed by them in a budget.
 
2013-09-26 04:16:57 PM
The partisans on both sides get distracted by the annual show


The other side is so bad, this is why you need us!!!
 
2013-09-26 04:16:57 PM

Lionel Mandrake: The debt ceiling was never an issue until the GOP sold their tiny, shriveled, anemic soul to the teabaggers.


If the GOP wants this to go away, they have to start educating the monster they created on the idea that the debt ceiling is not the same thing as a budget.
 
2013-09-26 04:18:27 PM
All this discussion about spending and debt is kind of missing the point, which is that what's happening now is basically a constitutional crisis in slow motion. 2 different elected branches of government, both with claims of legitimacy, and neither will move. That's simply a bad way to structure a government. That shouldn't be a situation which should be possible to exist for an extended period of time.
 
2013-09-26 04:20:37 PM
I'd rather crash the economy than let people keep threatening to do so to damage the long-term success of the nation.
 
2013-09-26 04:20:54 PM

MugzyBrown: The partisans on both sides get distracted by the annual show


The other side is so bad, this is why you need us!!!


There are plenty of cases where you can make a legitimate argument for both sides being at fault, or for being hypocritical by blaming one side for what they also do. This is not one of them. The GOP has an obviously terrible plan they are trying to implement. Pretending this is a case of "both sides are bad" can only happen if you're unwilling to actually pay attention and think about what's going on.
 
2013-09-26 04:23:24 PM

MugzyBrown: The partisans on both sides get distracted by the annual show


The other side is so bad, this is why you need us!!!


Right, we get it, both sides are teh bad.  Have a cookie and go sit down.
 
2013-09-26 04:23:55 PM

MugzyBrown: The partisans on both sides get distracted by the annual show


The other side is so bad, this is why you need us!!!


By "partisans," you mean "people who disagree that the whole country should be shut down if the Tea Partiers don't get everything they want," right?
 
2013-09-26 04:25:59 PM

DamnYankees: MrBallou: Dusk-You-n-Me: cman: Thats how Washington operates

No it is not. This is not routine. It is not normal. Raising the debt limit is not a favor. It is not a concession. It is something that must be done no matter who is in the White House.

And that's why Obama doing anything but refusing to even talk about concessions would be a horrible mistake. Now is the time to set the precedent that this shiat won't fly.

That's what he's doing.

The GOP actually has a smart play here - pass a debt ceiling increase with some stuff in it, stuff that Democrats might actually support. For example, just pass a debt ceiling increase which also repeals the medical device tax in Obamacare. Enough Democrats oppose that tax in isolation that it might pass the Senate. Then Obama has to choose what to do; veto and perhaps cause a default, or swallow it and keep the principle alive that he can be threatened in exchange for defaults.

The GOP's current proposal is laugh out loud stupid, but if they played this better they could walk home with a win. The GOP might just be too insane for that, though.


Yep, hell they could probably even get a 1 year extension to the individual mandate only. And the public would love it. But they want pretty much everything including opening of the exchanges delayed for a year. Ain't gonna happen.
 
2013-09-26 04:26:14 PM

cman: DamnYankees: cman: I can understand things such as medical tort reform and more drilling for oil, but the rest of them are absurd

Maybe you can understand those things as isolated policy preferences, but understanding them as being demanded as concessions as part of a debt ceiling increase? It's insane.

That's how Washington operates now.


Fixed.

Yes - there have been plenty of times where Congress hasn't been on the best terms but most of the time things got to the point where nuclear measures like "throw the nation's economy into the woodchipper" were on the table were over MAJOR issues that profoundly affected a large portion of the population. These day's almost every GOP issue, even what should be minor policy issues or niche interest issues, seems to get put on the negotiation table along with a count-down to tanking the country.
 
2013-09-26 04:26:33 PM

DamnYankees: All this discussion about spending and debt is kind of missing the point, which is that what's happening now is basically a constitutional crisis in slow motion. 2 different elected branches of government, both with claims of legitimacy, and neither will move. That's simply a bad way to structure a government. That shouldn't be a situation which should be possible to exist for an extended period of time.


it suffers from the delusion that members of government actually should govern, i'll grant that.
 
2013-09-26 04:27:08 PM
DamnYankees:

The GOP actually has a smart play here - pass a debt ceiling increase with some stuff in it, stuff that Democrats might actually support.

If the GOP offered something that Democrats might support, then Democrats might get something they want. It has to be poison, bitter bitter poison, and the Tea party has to get it's way or they will destroy us both.
 
2013-09-26 04:27:11 PM

odinsposse: MugzyBrown: The partisans on both sides get distracted by the annual show


The other side is so bad, this is why you need us!!!

There are plenty of cases where you can make a legitimate argument for both sides being at fault, or for being hypocritical by blaming one side for what they also do. This is not one of them. The GOP has an obviously terrible plan they are trying to implement. Pretending this is a case of "both sides are bad" can only happen if you're unwilling to actually pay attention and think about what's going on.


Both parties are very much to blame for the National Debt and the current deficit.  If not for the debt and the deficit, there wouldn't be a debate on the debt ceiling.

Sooo, both sides are bad.
 
2013-09-26 04:27:41 PM

MindStalker: Yep, hell they could probably even get a 1 year extension to the individual mandate only.


There's no chance they could get that. Obama wouldn't ever, ever sign that, and the Dems wouldn't pass it, since the health care law can't work without it. That's different from the medical device tax, which is merely a way to raise revenue, it's not a key piece of how the ACA works.
 
2013-09-26 04:28:26 PM
This is why Obama shouldn't have given them anything the last time the debt ceiling came up...
 
2013-09-26 04:29:19 PM

Satanic_Hamster: This is why Obama shouldn't have given them anything the last time the debt ceiling came up...


He actually didn't - the last time the debt ceiling came up Obama gave them nothing and they passed it quietly. It was the first time it came up that was the problem.
 
2013-09-26 04:29:21 PM

Kumana Wanalaia: If the GOP offered something that Democrats might support,


you could probably just stop there. it really isn't about poison pills so much as compromise of any kind being an anathema.

they just don't want to end up on campaign literature in a year labeled as pelosi's best buddy by the next tricorner hat wearing idiot.
 
2013-09-26 04:29:36 PM

MugzyBrown: If not for the debt and the deficit, there wouldn't be a debate on the debt ceiling.


There shouldn't be a debate over the debt ceiling regardless of the debt/deficit.
 
2013-09-26 04:30:31 PM

Satanic_Hamster: This is why Obama shouldn't have given them anything the last time the debt ceiling came up...


The President has shown that he can learn from his mistakes.  I'm sure he's learned from that one.  Hence, his refusal to lead his party to negotiate this time around.

The fact that the GOP is showing this level of desperation 3 weeks before the debt ceiling deadline is very telling.
 
2013-09-26 04:31:15 PM

sprawl15: cman: Thats how Washington operates

As the article says:A bargain is when Obama wants something the GOP doesn't want (universal preschool, say) and then the GOP says "look we'll do it, but only if you do X, Y, and Z for us." Increasing the debt ceiling isn't like that. It isn't a pet policy priority of Obama's and it isn't something House Republicans oppose. It's something both sides agree is necessary to avert a legal and financial disaster.


I made this same point in one of the earlier threads, and it's really the take home point in all of this.

They are offering to not blow us all up. That's their "concession", and all they want in exchange is everything that they couldn't get through normal government process because they only hold one half of one third of all government power...and just lost a presidential election.
 
2013-09-26 04:31:21 PM

DamnYankees: All this discussion about spending and debt is kind of missing the point, which is that what's happening now is basically a constitutional crisis in slow motion. 2 different elected branches of government, both with claims of legitimacy, and neither will move. That's simply a bad way to structure a government. That shouldn't be a situation which should be possible to exist for an extended period of time.


Presidential systems typically experience a lot shorter timespans between crises that result in massive upheaval than America. We are a HUGE outlier in terms of maintenance of a system (although you can argue that the 14th Amendment represented a shift into a Second American Republic even though it nominally upheld the same constitution).
 
2013-09-26 04:31:55 PM

DamnYankees: That's different from the medical device tax, which is merely a way to raise revenue, it's not a key piece of how the ACA works.


It helps to fund it. So it is key.

The pubs would never approve that tax ever again, and then they would point out that "Obamacare is underfunded and is a leech on the govt...." while completely ignoring that they gutted parts of the revenue generating part.
 
2013-09-26 04:32:47 PM

DamnYankees: All this discussion about spending and debt is kind of missing the point, which is that what's happening now is basically a constitutional crisis in slow motion. 2 different elected branches of government, both with claims of legitimacy, and neither will move. That's simply a bad way to structure a government. That shouldn't be a situation which should be possible to exist for an extended period of time.


Matt had a good point; if it works, it's a serious power grab by the House - it would make the Senate and the Presidential veto vestigial.
 
2013-09-26 04:33:00 PM
I think it's bears repeating: The House bill contains language stating that any Executive expenditure exceeding 100mil will have to be signed off on by Congress before it can be implemented.

This is a gross violation of the established Checks and Balances in the Constitution.

This is not a small thing.
 
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