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(Slashdot)   For every game developer *not* interested in making "Call of Duty 19: Assault on Disneyworld," Kickstarter is increasingly the way to go for funding   (slashdot.org) divider line 142
    More: Interesting, disneyworld, Kickstarter, Clinical study design, Indiegogo  
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1445 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Sep 2013 at 10:59 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-26 03:36:49 PM
BolloxReader:Can't, according to SEC regs. No more than 200 investors, no more than 25 who aren't already millionaires, and no public appeals for funds without an IPO and underwriting by Goldman Sachs or another financial firm. Plus ongoing third party oversight because you are now a publicly owned company.

Crowdsourcing is only legal if you don't call it an investment. Definitely offering future profit splits through crowdsourcing is illegal.


That's interesting but not really what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting an IPO, more along the lines of a professionally produced movie or play or any contracted produced service where investors can indeed get a share of the profits
 
2013-09-26 03:38:49 PM

that bosnian sniper: Without debating that (because let's face it, it's true), since the expansion of the F2P model in the West and the easing of the social stigmas attached to it ("F2P is P2W" and "F2P means failure") there's been a lot more competition in the F2P market. Demand for games is relatively inelastic given there are a finite number of gamers with diverse interests and expectation, and if there's one thing we've seen it's that the supply of games is very elastic -- F2P developers and publishers have to compete amongst each other for gamers, especially the free ones, and that means they have to create an F2P environment that has the highest value to free players (to lure them in and retain them), but remains profitable.


I don't disagree with you on the basic market model in play here, and that the quality of the games will probably improve, but there are philosophical limits when it comes to free-to-play.  It's going to be hell to preserve the games so they can be played in the future, and in addition, the model demands content.  More content, more content, more content.  But complexity in choice is only good if it is backed with complexity in design.  You can give me 20 different weapons, just make sure they all have a good, solid, specific use, and that I can switch to any of those weapons in the course of heated combat.  The endgame is that you end up with a bloated game, where you're creating and recycling redundant choices, because that is the business model.

So even if you have intense competition and demand for the games leading to better games, it's still going to be fundamentally inferior to the arcade or the retail model.  I'm not looking at it as "all the free-to-play games currently suck, but there may be better ones in the future", but moreso "the business model is designed to suck".  The only free-to-play game that I've played so far which holds up to any preliminary scrutiny is Path of Exile, though I have heard some nice things about World of Tanks from others.  (And yeah, not discounting your praise for it.  Heard it from other people as well.)  But I'd be much more confident in either of those games if they were sixty-dollar boxed games (or thirty-dollar digital games) with the occasional expansion pack.

Egoy3k: ITT: butthurt morons who don't understand why video games are made.

/it's to make money


That's perfectly acceptable.  The issue is that the contract between the developer, the one where "casual" games could be used to finance the "hardcore" games, the one where the players who are genuinely interested in games as a medium can dictate the content, has completely and utterly broken down, and it's the reason you're having this horrible schism in the market.  All the money brought into the console market by FIFA, or Madden, or licensed games, or casual games, is now going to companies whose sole existence is so suck that money out of the market.  Most of our best video games were made by the publishers who could secure capital and talent and put them under a single roof, so don't be surprised that people are freaking the fark out as the model falls apart.

Egoy3k: If COD is such a bad game why does it make so much money?


Because people can buy what they relate to and most people are thoroughly mediocre.
 
2013-09-26 03:48:19 PM

Vertdang: KSP is a really fun game. they had it on a steam sale for $13 a couple weeks ago. I think it was $5 or $7 during the summer sale.

/just messing around with it is a blast, can't wait to try career mode.


KSP is amazing, especially with its moddability and the fact they keep adding the content of popular add-ons to the game proper. I really hope they integrate MechJeb's flight telemetry into the main game if not the auto-pilot feature, and add in RemoteTech's functionality to unmanned missions. MapSat and Kethane would be great too, since those two mods add a ton of potential mission objectives and profiles.

I still have my save file where I got a fully-functioning KPS in operation complete, with Munar and Minmus relay and mapping satsand a Munar kethane operation. Before I quit, I  was about to launch a mothership to Duna that would park an unmanned kethane rig in LDO and install relay sats in Duna-synchronous orbit before returning.
 
2013-09-26 03:51:22 PM

Mike_LowELL: That's perfectly acceptable. The issue is that the contract between the developer, the one where "casual" games could be used to finance the "hardcore" games, the one where the players who are genuinely interested in games as a medium can dictate the content, has completely and utterly broken down, and it's the reason you're having this horrible schism in the market. All the money brought into the console market by FIFA, or Madden, or licensed games, or casual games, is now going to companies whose sole existence is so suck that money out of the market. Most of our best video games were made by the publishers who could secure capital and talent and put them under a single roof, so don't be surprised that people are freaking the fark out as the model falls apart.


I don't disagree but there are still many quality games being made and I don't see any real cause for concern.  Most gamers who get really in a twist about this sort of thing are just upset that 'popular game X' doesn't conform to their wishes meanwhile they are missing out on 'less popular game Y' or 'indie game z'.
 
2013-09-26 03:57:20 PM

Mike_LowELL: I don't disagree with you on the basic market model in play here...The endgame is that you end up with a bloated game, where you're creating and recycling redundant choices, because that is the business model.


The subscription-based model suffers from the same issues -- mudflation, demand for ever-increasing amounts of content, power creep, drop-off in innovation, etc. I'm fairly convinced  World of Warcraft has only enjoyed the longevity it has, because Blizzard basically reinvents the game's mechanics with each expansion within a loose framework of role and class expectation.
 
2013-09-26 04:00:22 PM

Egoy3k: I don't disagree but there are still many quality games being made and I don't see any real cause for concern.


A big problem is that oversaturation of mediocrity leads to atrophied tastes. People are willing to look at something that may be perfectly competent dumb fun and declare it Totally Excellent. Take the newest SimCity: Polygon rated it a 9.5, then an 8, then a 4, then a 6.5. For basically the same build between all three. The server problems not being visible in their very short time with the game is something that could have been foreseen (as Penny Arcade foresaw in their warning of their own sort-of-review), but the fundamental design issues with GlassBox's agent system were glaring and telegraphed. There were series of videos released by Maxis showing how the agents have no actual agency and how everything in the game is based on buildings releasing/receiving agents (which are themselves merely packets of resources) and running on a few simple 'rules'.

Those problems were ignored because the game was 'pretty fun for a bit' which is all that's required to be considered a masterpiece in the modern gaming industry. Bioshock Infinite's another great example of something that is mediocre but lauded because of how little the general public expects from videogames: we compare B:I to Call of Duty and come out with a very favorable comparison, not to the history of FPSs, where it's above average but nothing special.
 
2013-09-26 04:07:51 PM
 
2013-09-26 04:28:21 PM

Honest Bender: that bosnian sniper: I really hope they

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features


Yup. I really hope they change their mind on Lagrangian mechanics, though. I love my first orbital kethane refinery and supply depot to having forgotten that little fact.
 
2013-09-26 04:32:26 PM
I've funded five kickstarters now, one board game, two video games, one set of miniatures, and a pen and paper RPG. Only the last one the set of miniatures has actually delivered.
 
2013-09-26 04:34:28 PM

sprawl15: Egoy3k: I don't disagree but there are still many quality games being made and I don't see any real cause for concern.

A big problem is that oversaturation of mediocrity leads to atrophied tastes. People are willing to look at something that may be perfectly competent dumb fun and declare it Totally Excellent. Take the newest SimCity: Polygon rated it a 9.5, then an 8, then a 4, then a 6.5. For basically the same build between all three. The server problems not being visible in their very short time with the game is something that could have been foreseen (as Penny Arcade foresaw in their warning of their own sort-of-review), but the fundamental design issues with GlassBox's agent system were glaring and telegraphed. There were series of videos released by Maxis showing how the agents have no actual agency and how everything in the game is based on buildings releasing/receiving agents (which are themselves merely packets of resources) and running on a few simple 'rules'.

Those problems were ignored because the game was 'pretty fun for a bit' which is all that's required to be considered a masterpiece in the modern gaming industry. Bioshock Infinite's another great example of something that is mediocre but lauded because of how little the general public expects from videogames: we compare B:I to Call of Duty and come out with a very favorable comparison, not to the history of FPSs, where it's above average but nothing special.


Yeah, but when we compare B:I to B or B2 it is clearly the worst of the lot, but try telling anybody on the internet that and you get called a troll.
 
2013-09-26 04:39:51 PM
If it wasn't for kick starter, I wouldn't of ever gotten to play a proper SWAT follow up (see Takedown Red Sabre, out now on Steam and 360). Nor would I get the chance to play a proper Socom: U.S Navy Seals follow up (see H-Hour: Worlds Elite out next year). Kickstarter is the greatest thing to ever happen to games.
 
2013-09-26 04:40:04 PM
sprawl15: ...Bioshock Infinite's another great example of something that is mediocre but lauded because of how little the general public expects from videogames: we compare B:I to Call of Duty and come out with a very favorable comparison, not to the history of FPSs, where it's above average but nothing special.

To be fair, much of Bioshock Infinite's praise originated from its story, setting, and characterization rather than its gameplay. It's gameplay is really only outstanding compared to contemporary shooters, sure, but on the other hand it's still a marked improvement from previous games in the series. That's a perfectly reasonable trade-off, at least for me.
 
2013-09-26 04:42:23 PM

that bosnian sniper: I love my first orbital kethane refinery and supply depot to having forgotten that little fact.


I really wanted to like the kethane stuff. But CHRIST it takes too long to map a planet. And once mapped, how am I supposed to translate that map into a landing site?
 
2013-09-26 04:44:41 PM

amundb: If it wasn't for kick starter, I wouldn't of ever gotten to play a proper SWAT follow up (see Takedown Red Sabre, out now on Steam and 360). Nor would I get the chance to play a proper Socom: U.S Navy Seals follow up (see H-Hour: Worlds Elite out next year). Kickstarter is the greatest thing to ever happen to games.


I'd never heard of any of those games, so I googled them, and this review for Takedown is one of the most damning reviews I've ever read, it's quite funny. The game does look poo though, so it might be right.
 
2013-09-26 04:47:52 PM

that bosnian sniper: To be fair, much of Bioshock Infinite's praise originated from its story, setting, and characterization rather than its gameplay.


There was a huge fundamental issue with it, though. Lutece developed the technology on her own, and that led to Columbia, and nothing is ever really addressed in terms of what then happens with that technology. It would be like if you discover a death laser on the moon and you go and try to stop the death laser from blowing up earth but you regret the violence so you try to stop your violent rampage and never mention the death laser again.

And that's besides the silliness like the fact that tonics exist at all in that world, or why Elizabeth can only open rifts to combat related things in battle arenas (other than the one time she can make apples).

that bosnian sniper: but on the other hand [the gameplay is] still a marked improvement from previous games in the series


I'd actually disagree. The first two games had a broader set of weapons, letting each weapon fill a different role. Same with the plasmids. B:I 'streamlined' it with the 2 weapons system and making all plasmids 'combat' tonics, causing the weapons and tonics to be pretty much interchangeable (aside from niche weapons which are rendered nearly useless in such a system).
 
2013-09-26 04:49:39 PM

Egoy3k: I don't disagree but there are still many quality games being made and I don't see any real cause for concern. Most gamers who get really in a twist about this sort of thing are just upset that 'popular game X' doesn't conform to their wishes meanwhile they are missing out on 'less popular game Y' or 'indie game z'.


That's perfectly acceptable, and it's important to distinguish from those who can give good, strong answers for what they like/dislike in the newer games and those who are subscribing to the FM Radio effect and labeling all media as shiatty because they're only exploring what's on the surface.  But I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that the combination of strong individual creativity as financed by the large coffers of publishers is not the best option that we have for game design right now.  (Unless you want to get governments financing those games and give those developers full creative freedom, irrespective of whether they can make a profit.)  Even the crowdsourcing model comes with its caveats, because those players basically act as shareholders, when the ideal goal is to let those who know how to run their operation do exactly that.

that bosnian sniper: The subscription-based model suffers from the same issues -- mudflation, demand for ever-increasing amounts of content, power creep, drop-off in innovation, etc. I'm fairly convinced World of Warcraft has only enjoyed the longevity it has, because Blizzard basically reinvents the game's mechanics with each expansion within a loose framework of role and class expectation.


Just so you know where I'm coming from, I think persistent game models--with the current technology that we have--are best oriented towards the things that make persistence interesting.  In other words, the sort of dynamic decision-making that large numbers of people can make in an MMORPG, for instance.  And not the World of Warcraft theme park kind, but the Asheron's Call or the EVE Online, where players have free reign to bring life or death to what they see fit.  (When the battle for the player-versus-player server in Asheron's Call was won by Blood's monarchy, people unsubscribed, because they saw it as the game "being over".)

For everything else, whether single-player or versus multiplayer, you're tying yourself to a business model in which the player has the final say, rather than the developer.  And as far as I have seen, most of the games which use this model for persistent updates--DotA 2, League of Legends, StarCraft II, and so forth--do it because their core mechanical and aesthetic design choices aren't up to snuff.  (Brood War just feels, looks, and sounds so much better than StarCraft II.)  So in order to prevent players from becoming bored with the core mechanics, they have to constantly inject new novelty into the experience, whether through balance updates, or new characters, or whatever.  And I would say that if it's new novelty you desire, then you're just better off picking up a different game.
 
2013-09-26 05:37:27 PM

pute kisses like a man: [cdn.steamcommunity.com image 850x189]


fark you in your mothers farking ass.

I view greenlight as one of the scourges of steam. Now it's 95% nothing but 'ALPHA PRE-RELEASE' and 'PRE-ORDER NOW!!!' Just like farking gamestop. In a few months they'll figure out a way to buy and sell used PC games and start screaming at you for that.

Seriously, it's obnoxious that every time I go 'oh that game looks cool' it's either a pre-order, or it's a pre-alpha release that you get to pay full price for and maybe some day it'll leave beta. Maybe.

I just want a game, to play.
 
2013-09-26 05:37:30 PM

sprawl15: Lutece developed the technology on her own, and that led to Columbia, and nothing is ever really addressed in terms of what then happens with that technology.


That's outside the scope of the narrative, which is about Booker, Elizabeth, and Comstock. The story begins and ends with them, not the Luteces. Complaining about that, is like complaining that  Jurassic Park didn't explain what happened to the dinosaurs after the main characters escaped the park (in the book, whether the Air Force managed to kill them all, and in the movie whether the lysine contingency actually works) -- it's simply outside the scope of the narrative.

Vigors  are explained, albeit indirectly, in the game. Also, you're inquiring about Elizabeth's ability to open tears and bring items through that are really beyond the game's immediate context (not to mention, it's handwaved by the Siphon). You might as well ask why Elizabeth doesn't open a tear and bring an atom bomb through to destroy Columbia.

Honest Bender: I really wanted to like the kethane stuff. But CHRIST it takes too long to map a planet. And once mapped, how am I supposed to translate that map into a landing site?


Well, the kethane mod gives latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates for kethane deposits, but you need another add on to plot landing sites -- assuming you're making use of a kethane detection satellite. I think the later add-on versions continue mapping once you've returned to mission control, or beyond that you can time-skip until the planet's mapped.  You can still build a rover with a detection radar on it and manually prospect.

Mike_LowELL: Just so you know where I'm coming from, I think persistent game models--with the current technology that we have--are best oriented towards the things that make persistence interesting.  In other words, the sort of dynamic decision-making that large numbers of people can make in an MMORPG, for instance.


Indeed, I agree that designing for emergent gameplay is the best route to a game environment that's persistent and persistently interesting. Of course, that's a dying trend in MMO's unfortunately.
 
2013-09-26 05:47:31 PM

kroonermanblack: pute kisses like a man: [cdn.steamcommunity.com image 850x189]

fark you in your mothers farking ass.

I view greenlight as one of the scourges of steam. Now it's 95% nothing but 'ALPHA PRE-RELEASE' and 'PRE-ORDER NOW!!!' Just like farking gamestop. In a few months they'll figure out a way to buy and sell used PC games and start screaming at you for that.

Seriously, it's obnoxious that every time I go 'oh that game looks cool' it's either a pre-order, or it's a pre-alpha release that you get to pay full price for and maybe some day it'll leave beta. Maybe.

I just want a game, to play.


fark yes, I would love to sell off some of my old games.
 
2013-09-26 06:00:01 PM

Gonz: scottydoesntknow: Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (the novel) had a terrorist incident at a Euro Disney expy. One of the snipers was perched on at the top of a Ferris wheel while the terrorists were camped out in the castle.

That's the exact scene I had in mind when I wrote that. Where the sniper gives the terrorist a gut shot rather than a head shot, so he'll die slowly as retribution for killing the crippled kid.


Wasn't that Noonan?

/I loved that novel
//really need to re-read it
 
2013-09-26 06:06:11 PM

Egoy3k: mooseyfate: Egoy3k: ITT: butthurt morons who don't understand why video games are made.

/it's to make money

So your belief, as a consumer, is that you should just blindly lap up whatever bullshiat is placed infront of you? With no complaints? I'm not exactly anti-establishment, but fark that shiat. If a company is churning out increasingly terrible games, why would we continue to fork over money? This is all hypothetical, of course, because CoD has such a hard-wired audience now, I'm pretty sure they could go the better part of the next decade releasing only Sinead O'Conner CDs in Call of Duty packaging and still not lose a dime in projected sales, but c'mon! There's a better way to do this shiat, so I'm going to continue to give my money to game companies that actually make quality products. Because when a company can make quality products that ALSO beat the pants off of EA and Activision's FPS Factory Games in sales, everyone wins.

I was very clear in my original statement that I no longer care for the COD series.  Many other people abstain from purchasing the COD games but millions continue to purchase COD every year.  Not once did I endorse purchasing a game that you don't care for, why would you think that I do?  If you don't like it don't farking buy it or play it but don't expect anything to change until millions of people change their minds.


The "ITT" post was the first one of yours I'd read in this thread. I don't have you Farkied, so your posts aren't highlighted. Usually "ITT" posts are one-off pseudo trolls. And I stopped expecting anything from people a long time ago, let alone millions of people at once.
 
2013-09-26 06:14:00 PM

that bosnian sniper: That's outside the scope of the narrative, which is about Booker, Elizabeth, and Comstock. The story begins and ends with them, not the Luteces.


On the contrary. The game begins with the Luteces. The Luteces guide you to the ending - an arrangement between Booker and Elizabeth by the Luteces.

The arc only starts with the idea that you want to find and retrieve Elizabeth (a Lutece lie). To follow through on that, you resort to changing reality and uncovering greater and greater horrors. Eventually, to stop the consequences from being unleashed on the world, you end any chance of that. But the thing that released the horrors, the catalyst for everything bad that happened, wasn't Comstock - it was Lutece's technology. Everything you do as Booker (past the whole Vox reveal) is to prevent the use of the Lutece's technology in the way he saw (both in visions and in his time traveling), but that technology is left in the hands of the next person interested in bending reality to their will. It's bizarre.

that bosnian sniper: Vigors are explained, albeit indirectly, in the game.


Not in terms of the world the game exists in. The vigors are sold by street vendors and automated machines, they're in the clutches of dead citizens all over Columbia, yet the only enemies that use them are zealots (which use a very different vigor than the one you get) and firemen (who again don't use the vigor directly). And the citizenry is fine with the changes from drinking vigors but not with the changes from having a bit of Irish blood. They're handwaved into the game, then scattered everywhere because Bioshock has to have plasmids and why not.
 
2013-09-26 06:42:39 PM

Egoy3k: mooseyfate: Egoy3k: ITT: butthurt morons who don't understand why video games are made.

/it's to make money

So your belief, as a consumer, is that you should just blindly lap up whatever bullshiat is placed infront of you? With no complaints? I'm not exactly anti-establishment, but fark that shiat. If a company is churning out increasingly terrible games, why would we continue to fork over money? This is all hypothetical, of course, because CoD has such a hard-wired audience now, I'm pretty sure they could go the better part of the next decade releasing only Sinead O'Conner CDs in Call of Duty packaging and still not lose a dime in projected sales, but c'mon! There's a better way to do this shiat, so I'm going to continue to give my money to game companies that actually make quality products. Because when a company can make quality products that ALSO beat the pants off of EA and Activision's FPS Factory Games in sales, everyone wins.

I was very clear in my original statement that I no longer care for the COD series.  Many other people abstain from purchasing the COD games but millions continue to purchase COD every year.  Not once did I endorse purchasing a game that you don't care for, why would you think that I do?  If you don't like it don't farking buy it or play it but don't expect anything to change until millions of people change their minds.


I don't think anybody is expecting anything to change.  But the beauty of Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and crowdfunding in general is that those of us who do like the things that publishers, in their infinite wisdom, have decided aren't LCD enough to make them giant money hats have an avenue to make sure those things get made anyway.
 
2013-09-26 09:27:26 PM

sprawl15: There was a huge fundamental issue with it, though. Lutece developed the technology on her own, and that led to Columbia, and nothing is ever really addressed in terms of what then happens with that technology. It would be like if you discover a death laser on the moon and you go and try to stop the death laser from blowing up earth but you regret the violence so you try to stop your violent rampage and never mention the death laser again.

And that's besides the silliness like the fact that tonics exist at all in that world, or why Elizabeth can only open rifts to combat related things in battle arenas (other than the one time she can make apples).


TO ANYONE WHO HAS NOT PLAYED INFINITE YET, SPOILERS ABOUND:

She didn't develop it on her own. She developed the technology after receiving funding from Comstock. I'm pretty sure this is addressed in one of the later audio diaries you find.

With Comstock not existing in any timeline anymore, the technology is never created, because she never gets funding (Because only the psycho-prophet funds her, 'cause her idea are. Um. Kinda of nuts?) so it never happens. Or un-happens. Or never will have happened.

Basically, by stopping the creation of Comstock, you also stop the creation of the Lutece's tech. (This is why Booker has never, ever heard of Columbia: in Booker's reality, there is no Comstock. So no funding for Lutece's tech. So Lutece's tech never materializes, and history proceeds as 'normal'.)

The tonics existing is semi-easily explained. It's derived from the rift technology (And, apparently, *powered* by the rift technology, in some ways? I can't quite remember that). Alternatively, they got it from the same place they got the idea for The Songbird. (There's a REASON it looks like a Big Daddy).

And the last bit is simply Gameplay and Story segregation. It's a biatch. But it's also not true: She often opened rifts (when you were chasing her) to flee through pathways that weren't open at the time, etc.

You know, I really, really wish they still had the rights to System Shock, because THAT would have been a fun, if goddamn terrifying shoutout. (Here's another fun thought: SHODAN with access to Lutece's technology)
 
2013-09-26 09:52:35 PM

Felgraf: The tonics existing is semi-easily explained. It's derived from the rift technology (And, apparently, *powered* by the rift technology, in some ways? I can't quite remember that). Alternatively, they got it from the same place they got the idea for The Songbird. (There's a REASON it looks like a Big Daddy).


There's everything in this post, and in regards to the bit I quoted, it's pretty clearly implied Fink stole the ideas for Vigors from Plasmids, yes, plus the ideas from other third parties/contractors. Considering part of the Siphon is a device for refining Salts, it's clearly derived from the tear technology in some unrevealed way.

And, actually, why most enemies in Bioshock Infinite don't use Vigors is actually pretty clever, if not without exposition in the game.  sprawl15 explained it himself, even though he may not have made the connection.

1. Police at the turn of the century was a profession dominated by  what nationality, again? Why was that?
2.  One vigor was actually given away during the entire game...and to people of what society?
3. How much do vigors and salts cost at vending machines, again?
 
2013-09-27 06:45:47 AM

HeartBurnKid: I don't think anybody is expecting anything to change. But the beauty of Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and crowdfunding in general is that those of us who do like the things that publishers, in their infinite wisdom, have decided aren't LCD enough to make them giant money hats have an avenue to make sure those things get made anyway.


I'm more interested in the early access model.  I've done it for Minecraft, KSP, and a few others that sucked.  at least then if the effort goes to hell you still ahev something for your money even if it is a broken POS.
 
2013-09-27 07:23:56 AM

Felgraf: With Comstock not existing in any timeline anymore, the technology is never created


The audio log talks about how she mostly developed the technology and just needed a bit of funding. And funding isn't something you get from just one person, without Comstock around she would just need one more vote. I mean unless in this alternate world Comstock is personally able to write and pass budgets and also happens to be the only person on the planet with an interest in a weapon of unlimited power.

that bosnian sniper: And, actually, why most enemies in Bioshock Infinite don't use Vigors is actually pretty clever, if not without exposition in the game.


Bioshock had plasmids integrated into the world; they were commonly available because they were commonly used. The search for Adam to power the plasmids was a huge chunk of the various motivations of the factions that led to Rapture's downfall (and the discovery of Adam was what fueled Rapture's rapid rise). Even the basic splicer enemies were who they were because of the impact of plasmids on the society - such fundamental power being distributed at-will to the public has a serious impact.

In B:I there are some vigors. And they are just kind of there, because science-magic. They're sold on street corners despite the utter lack of demand. People apparently grabbed their precious bottles before running to train stations to escape but didn't bother drinking them to try to save themselves from death. And even with my assumed explanation of why they don't personally use vigors (something something blood purity) doesn't explain why the Vox don't use them.
 
2013-09-27 07:48:27 AM

sprawl15: Felgraf: With Comstock not existing in any timeline anymore, the technology is never created

The audio log talks about how she mostly developed the technology and just needed a bit of funding. And funding isn't something you get from just one person, without Comstock around she would just need one more vote. I mean unless in this alternate world Comstock is personally able to write and pass budgets and also happens to be the only person on the planet with an interest in a weapon of unlimited power.

that bosnian sniper: And, actually, why most enemies in Bioshock Infinite don't use Vigors is actually pretty clever, if not without exposition in the game.

Bioshock had plasmids integrated into the world; they were commonly available because they were commonly used. The search for Adam to power the plasmids was a huge chunk of the various motivations of the factions that led to Rapture's downfall (and the discovery of Adam was what fueled Rapture's rapid rise). Even the basic splicer enemies were who they were because of the impact of plasmids on the society - such fundamental power being distributed at-will to the public has a serious impact.

In B:I there are some vigors. And they are just kind of there, because science-magic. They're sold on street corners despite the utter lack of demand. People apparently grabbed their precious bottles before running to train stations to escape but didn't bother drinking them to try to save themselves from death. And even with my assumed explanation of why they don't personally use vigors (something something blood purity) doesn't explain why the Vox don't use them.


She didn't get funding from the government, though. She got it, specifically, *from Comstock*. Comstock is to Lutece what Westinghouse is to Nikolai Tesla: A fund source and a patron, without whom they may not have had much success.

I mean, note: There *is not Lutece* technology in Alpha Booker's world.

And it's not so much "Look no one else is interested in this weapon of unlimited power", it's more "This is the 1930's, this woman claims she can peer into other worlds. PFFfffft. Crank case." Keep in mind: Remember how difficult it was for *TESLA* to get funding (he, too, required a wealthy patron: Were it not for Westinghouse, how much would Tesla have managed to do?), and his tech and ideas were based on things *we knew actually existed* (electricity).
 
2013-09-27 08:43:55 AM

Egoy3k: HeartBurnKid: I don't think anybody is expecting anything to change. But the beauty of Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and crowdfunding in general is that those of us who do like the things that publishers, in their infinite wisdom, have decided aren't LCD enough to make them giant money hats have an avenue to make sure those things get made anyway.

I'm more interested in the early access model.  I've done it for Minecraft, KSP, and a few others that sucked.  at least then if the effort goes to hell you still ahev something for your money even if it is a broken POS.


It still takes money to start any semi-professional operation.
Early access works for the old school model of game building, where one or two guys start piling code in their spare time. You can see the results are rudimentary looking games and only some go viral later on.

A project like Star Citizen could never work with only an early access model. Its initial goals were just too damn high.

/Its sort of the difference between dropping a few coins in a sidewalk musicians hat or funding a community dance group.
/The musician is already giving you a song for the money, and the dance troop gives  no guarantee of putting on a show.
/But the difference in scale of the end performance simply can't be compared, even if you donation is similar.
 
2013-09-27 09:10:08 AM

Felgraf: She didn't get funding from the government, though. She got it, specifically, *from Comstock*.


Columbia was built by the government. They paid for it. Keep in mind the timeline, Booker was a poor before his baptism, and Columbia was launched within 3 years of Wounded Knee. The whole reason Columbia was over in China to wipe out the Boxer Rebellion was that it was going around the world as an example of American exceptionalism, an official envoy of the government. Comstock used his influence as a Senator to take over Columbia after launch.

Felgraf: I mean, note: There *is not Lutece* technology in Alpha Booker's world.


That's because Robert Lutece is marginally worse at the technology than his 'sister', and she contacted him and then pulled him into her reality. Keep in mind, they were communicating through quantum widgets they had both independently developed (using the Lutece field). And, strictly speaking, if there is no reality where Comstock exists, and Comstock is required for Rosalind to create the technology to pull her counterpart away from the research, then Robert will simply develop it with a few years lag.

Felgraf: Remember how difficult it was for *TESLA* to get funding


Tesla wasn't producing a new technology and being rejected outright, he was offering one variant of the technology versus Edison's other variant in a mutually exclusive market, and they were both trying to get the foothold needed to be chosen in perpetuity. It's not really a relevant comparison.
 
2013-09-27 11:19:39 AM

sprawl15: Bioshock had plasmids integrated into the world; they were commonly available because they were commonly used...


How many splicers actually used plasmids, again?
 
2013-09-27 01:47:39 PM

that bosnian sniper: sprawl15: Bioshock had plasmids integrated into the world; they were commonly available because they were commonly used...

How many splicers actually used plasmids, again?


All of them. That's why they're splicers. Their bodies and minds were mutated by the plasmids they used. That's why they're aggressive - they're looking for the Adam they need. That's also why the Big Daddies were created - to protect the Little Sisters from plasmid junkies. And, lorewise, they used the many additional plasmids that would have existed outside of the direct combat ones that you use in the game (these were mentioned throughout various logs; ways to look prettier, etc).

Lorewise, there's no real evidence of vigors being directly used by anyone but the raven guys. Even in the case of the firemen, the vigor is just a power source for the suit. Columbia barely even acknowledges the existence of vigors other than the carnival nonsense in the beginning of the game and the out of place vigor booths.
 
2013-09-27 02:02:40 PM

sprawl15: All of them.


...so,

"Only Zealots and Firemen used vigors in Bioshock Infinite game play and that's not okay, even though by my own admission vigors were integrated into the story and setting but not to my satisfaction, but only Houdinis actually  used plasmids in Bioshock game play and it's okay because reasons."
 
2013-09-27 02:17:02 PM
that bosnian sniper:

Why would you bother responding to a post that you didn't read?
 
2013-09-27 02:29:07 PM
I feel so disappointed when there's good discussions of the content in a game going on and I have no idea what's being said.  I should probably pay attention to the stories in these games every once in a while.
 
2013-09-27 02:31:07 PM

sprawl15: Why would you bother responding to a post that you didn't read?


You're the one biatching vigors didn't show up "enough" in Bioshock Infinite's game play, when in fact they showed up  more than in Bioshock's game play.
 
2013-09-27 02:38:06 PM

that bosnian sniper: You're the one biatching vigors didn't show up "enough" in Bioshock Infinite's game play


oh my mistake you didn't read any of the posts
 
2013-09-27 02:40:55 PM

Mike_LowELL: I feel so disappointed when there's good discussions of the content in a game going on and I have no idea what's being said.  I should probably pay attention to the stories in these games every once in a while.


In my defense, I certainly wasn't going to be able to pay attention to the combat in B:I and I was determined to slog it out.
 
2013-09-27 03:56:48 PM

sprawl15: that bosnian sniper: You're the one biatching vigors didn't show up "enough" in Bioshock Infinite's game play

oh my mistake you didn't read any of the posts


sprawl15: Not in terms of the world the game exists in. The vigors are sold by street vendors and automated machines, they're in the clutches of dead citizens all over Columbia, yet the only enemies that use them are zealots (which use a very different vigor than the one you get) and firemen (who again don't use the vigor directly). And the citizenry is fine with the changes from drinking vigors but not with the changes from having a bit of Irish blood. They're handwaved into the game, then scattered everywhere because Bioshock has to have plasmids and why not.


Emphasis mine.
 
2013-09-27 05:45:09 PM

that bosnian sniper: Emphasis mine.


amazing how you even quote "Not in terms of the world the game exists in" and then ignore everything but "number of enemy types that happen to use plasmids/vigors"
 
2013-09-27 06:31:24 PM

sprawl15: that bosnian sniper: Emphasis mine.

amazing how you even quote "Not in terms of the world the game exists in" and then ignore everything but "number of enemy types that happen to use plasmids/vigors"


You're the one that framed it in that precise metric, boyo.
 
2013-09-27 06:41:37 PM

that bosnian sniper: You're the one that framed it in that precise metric, boyo.


you do know you had to trim most of the post away and then bold the specific part and then still miss the point of that part to get to where you are now right
 
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