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(Washington Post)   Maryland state officials who've used eminent domain 116 times to seize property for Metro's new Purple Line are surprisingly willing to grant generous concessions when the property in question is a private country club with a nice golf course   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 90
    More: Obvious, Metro, Columbia Country Club, eminent domain, concessions, Metrorail, scenic routes  
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6567 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Sep 2013 at 11:21 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



90 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-09-26 10:16:31 AM
Corruption?

In Maryland?

This is nothing agNEW.
 
2013-09-26 10:21:57 AM
Money talks, suckers walk.
 
2013-09-26 10:23:25 AM
Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.
 
2013-09-26 11:08:36 AM
Robert Moses snickers from beyond the grave.
 
2013-09-26 11:23:58 AM
Are they building a line to Dulles?
 
2013-09-26 11:25:18 AM
Subby have a problem with eminent domain?
 
2013-09-26 11:25:50 AM
Land of the free enough.
 
2013-09-26 11:27:18 AM
Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?
 
2013-09-26 11:29:28 AM

vernonFL: Are they building a line to Dulles?


Yeah, that's the silver line and has been going on for a good 4 years from about the same time they added the HOT lanes to the Beltway.  The first leg is supposed to open in December and it goes from East Falls Church through Tyson's (4 stops I think?) and last stop completed is at Whiele in Reston.  The next phase starts after that but I don't think they're expecting to be done with the whole thing until like 2016.  They're going to Dulles and a couple more stops further into Ashburn.  The orange line is already massively crowded so it will be interesting to see how it goes.
 
2013-09-26 11:29:54 AM

Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Did you know that the Supreme Court is infalliable, its basically 9 Jesuses sitting in golden thrones whose merest whims and fancies dictate how the rest of us live our lives?
 
2013-09-26 11:29:56 AM
My favorite muni executive course just lost its back-nine to a charter school.  Now, I'm all for educating the children and whatnot, but who's going to compensate me for the loss of my short game?

It's important that we recognize who the real victim is here:  me, the American Patriot-Golfer.
 
2013-09-26 11:30:41 AM
I just would've demanded that they change the name.  If its not part of the Metro, don't use a Metro-like name its just gonna cause unnecessary tourist confusion.
 
2013-09-26 11:33:43 AM
There's a stretch of I-35 in Denton that was built up around in the 60's and needs to be expanded. Instead of using eminent domain outright the city has been buying the buildings along the stretch and leasing them out until der tag.
 
2013-09-26 11:34:05 AM
This is tough talk, but after bullying 116 homes and businesses, rather than concede to the golf course, why not look at it as their favorite new place to dump all of the displaced dirt and rocks during the rail line's construction?  People just aren't ruthless enough anymore.
 
2013-09-26 11:37:34 AM
Did Fat Face Rick get paid?
 
2013-09-26 11:37:37 AM

Phineas: Did you know that the Supreme Court is infalliable, its basically 9 Jesuses sitting in golden thrones whose merest whims and fancies dictate how the rest of us live our lives?


Did you know that on many key constitutional decisions, as many as 44% of the court's members are wrong? It's true. Happens more often than you might think.
 
2013-09-26 11:38:43 AM
That guy has all the luck. Drummer for Steely Dan, SNL, Fletch, Community...
 
2013-09-26 11:39:13 AM
Well... you know public transport DOES attract the riff-raff.  Maybe we could paint a fox hunt scene on the side of the Metro cars so that it blends in.  Also, They mustn't have any windows.  Wouldn't want the commoners gawking at us on their way to purchase narcotics or anything.
 
2013-09-26 11:39:43 AM
s3.sidereel.com
 
2013-09-26 11:42:33 AM
georgedpcarlin.files.wordpress.com

There are over seventeen thousand golf courses in America, they average over one hundred and fifty acres a piece - that's three million plus acres, four thousand, eight hundred and twenty square miles - you could build two Rhode Islands and a Delaware for the homeless on the land currently being wasted on this meaningless, mindless, arrogant, elitist, racist, there's another thing; the only blacks you'll find at country clubs are carrying trays. And a boring game. A boring game for boring people. You ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies fark!

/Oblig
 
2013-09-26 11:43:37 AM
Never let the facts get in the way of a good headline, subby.

They haven't *yet* used eminent domain to seize the properties.
 
2013-09-26 11:47:44 AM
Did they get a tax cut? Because they probably need a tax cut too. And an apology. We should give those rich golfers a tax cut and a nice solid apology.
 
2013-09-26 11:49:22 AM

Carn: vernonFL: Are they building a line to Dulles?

Yeah, that's the silver line and has been going on for a good 4 years from about the same time they added the HOT lanes to the Beltway.  The first leg is supposed to open in December and it goes from East Falls Church through Tyson's (4 stops I think?) and last stop completed is at Whiele in Reston.  The next phase starts after that but I don't think they're expecting to be done with the whole thing until like 2016.  They're going to Dulles and a couple more stops further into Ashburn.  The orange line is already massively crowded so it will be interesting to see how it goes.


They are now saying that the Silver Line will open in January, at the earliest. Most of the capacity for the Silver Line is being taken away from the Blue Line rather than the Orange Line.

Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.
 
2013-09-26 11:50:33 AM
Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.
 
2013-09-26 11:51:38 AM

Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.


Who the fark cares what Ken Cuccinelli thinks about the Purple Line?
 
2013-09-26 11:53:57 AM

thurstonxhowell: Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.

Who the fark cares what Ken Cuccinelli thinks about the Purple Line?


That's a joke, son.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-26 11:56:31 AM
Wait!  This means the purple line is a go?  GREAT!  Fark the country club, but politics is like that.  And I have no problem with eminent domain for a project like this.  We need to keep the metro system from becoming an unworkable farkup and having people go through town to get from bethesda to college park is stupid.  Now if they could link it up to the silver line, that would be awesome!!!!   They also need another cross town tunnel.
 
2013-09-26 11:58:19 AM

Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.


Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...
 
2013-09-26 12:00:01 PM

rogue49: Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.


A friend of mine once wrote to MDOT asking about the western Potomac bridge idea, and was basically told "we refuse to consider it, so don't even bother asking again." But they did offer the helpful advice of driving 80 miles out of the way to cross at Point of Rocks, which is totally equipped to handle a couple of hundred thousand people per day trying to avoid the beltway.*

* the same friend insisted on correcting me every time I called it that - "it's the Cabin John Bridge!" whatever.
 
2013-09-26 12:04:13 PM

plewis: Wait!  This means the purple line is a go?  GREAT!  Fark the country club, but politics is like that.  And I have no problem with eminent domain for a project like this.  We need to keep the metro system from becoming an unworkable farkup and having people go through town to get from bethesda to college park is stupid.  Now if they could link it up to the silver line, that would be awesome!!!!   They also need another cross town tunnel.


If the NIMBYs hadn't had their way, this would already be addressed with the "Outer Beltway" and no, I don't mean what they currently refer to as the "outer loop".

Fairfax County Parkway was supposed to cross over the Potomac upstream of Great Falls and link up with the ICC. But you had a bunch of howling granola-crunching tree-huggers that put the kibosh on that design back when it first went up for approval. Thanks to them, Dan Snyder and his ilk have now purchased all the land over there and are doing whatever they please. Like cutting down all the trees blocking their views of the Potomac even though they belonged to the Federal Park Service......
 
2013-09-26 12:04:45 PM

Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.


Why should we residents of Maryland care what Ken "Transvaginal Hitler" Cooch has to say?
 
2013-09-26 12:08:15 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Robert Moses snickers from beyond the grave.


He would have used eminent domain to build a highway.
 
2013-09-26 12:12:41 PM

Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Did you know that country club members are often lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?
 
2013-09-26 12:17:02 PM
I enjoyed taking the blue line from springfield into DC during intern season
 
2013-09-26 12:23:20 PM

tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...


Well, I'm generally in favor of more roads, I was just alluding to the fact that it hasn't come close to bringing in the money in tolls or having the ridership they were claiming it would.
 
2013-09-26 12:24:28 PM

Wellon Dowd: thurstonxhowell: Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.

Who the fark cares what Ken Cuccinelli thinks about the Purple Line?

That's a joke, son.

[i.imgur.com image 640x459]


And while he is a farkhead, he just might be our next governor.

/please no
//Bob McDonnell was enough of a farkhead
///less of a farkhead please
 
2013-09-26 12:27:17 PM

Carn: Wellon Dowd: thurstonxhowell: Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.

Who the fark cares what Ken Cuccinelli thinks about the Purple Line?

That's a joke, son.

[i.imgur.com image 640x459]

And while he is a farkhead, he just might be our next governor.

/please no
//Bob McDonnell was enough of a farkhead
///less of a farkhead please


No, I'm pretty sure that Cuccinelli isn't winning.

McDonnell was relatively unknown and thus our increasingly purple state didn't see a reason NOT to elect him.  Cuccinelli is a well known turd
 
2013-09-26 12:35:50 PM
At least it looks like they're actively moving toward construction of the line. And chances are it'll be electric not diesel-electric. Much quieter to be honest.
 
2013-09-26 12:36:53 PM
Regardless of how you feel about the elites and their golf courses, that golf course is probably more expensive land than the homes. The city may be trying to save money.
 
2013-09-26 12:37:12 PM

LandOfChocolate: Carn: Wellon Dowd: thurstonxhowell: Wellon Dowd: Ken Cuccinelli has already come out against the Purple Line.

Who the fark cares what Ken Cuccinelli thinks about the Purple Line?

That's a joke, son.

[i.imgur.com image 640x459]

And while he is a farkhead, he just might be our next governor.

/please no
//Bob McDonnell was enough of a farkhead
///less of a farkhead please

No, I'm pretty sure that Cuccinelli isn't winning.

McDonnell was relatively unknown and thus our increasingly purple state didn't see a reason NOT to elect him.  Cuccinelli is a well known turd


I agree but I'm not taking anything for granted til it's over.
 
2013-09-26 12:46:44 PM
Chevy Chase golf course

www.blogcdn.com

that must have been a popular in Maryland
 
2013-09-26 12:47:22 PM
that must have been a popular movie in Maryland
 
2013-09-26 12:47:29 PM

ImpendingCynic: rogue49: Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.

A friend of mine once wrote to MDOT asking about the western Potomac bridge idea, and was basically told "we refuse to consider it, so don't even bother asking again." But they did offer the helpful advice of driving 80 miles out of the way to cross at Point of Rocks, which is totally equipped to handle a couple of hundred thousand people per day trying to avoid the beltway.*

* the same friend insisted on correcting me every time I called it that - "it's the Cabin John Bridge!" whatever.


The  Potomac area, where the DC/MD elite live in multi-million dollar mansions, is right under the flight path for Dulles. There are planes roaring overhead constantly. As a poor guy, I take some comfort from this.
 
2013-09-26 12:48:55 PM
So it's not going to happen ... because socialism... or will it happen because ... socialism.
The derp-world is waiting to know
 
2013-09-26 12:49:01 PM
When will Metro build a stop in Georgetown?
 
2013-09-26 12:56:55 PM
www.conspiracyclinic.com

Nobody knew at the time but - it was the first step towards our only appointed president.
 
2013-09-26 01:00:24 PM

Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Yes. Reporter is a numbskull. if you want something from a group of people who can tie you up in court for 20 yours, you are going to have to make it worth their while. If they didn't do that, this same guy would be biatching about delay and incompetent bureaucracy,
 
2013-09-26 01:01:14 PM

2wolves: When will Metro build a stop in Georgetown?


Not for a long time, there's no tracks under Georgetown.  The Blue Line takes a sharp right after Rosslyn, passes under the north tip of TR Island and enters DC* just north of Watergate.   Basically, if you extended I St west to VA, you'd have the Blue Line tunnel.


/Well, technically the river is DC but...
 
2013-09-26 01:01:51 PM

2wolves: When will Metro build a stop in Georgetown?


When they separate the Orange and Blue lines and can find a place to put it that won't need 24/7 pumps to keep the water out.
 
2013-09-26 01:06:29 PM
495- the Capitol beltway has two streches on its northern side where the road suddenly has hairpin curves reminiscent of a NASCAR track.  It is no coincidence that one of those turns curves away from the site of (at the time) the only Mormon Temple outside of Utah, and the other from an enclave of houses located on the most expensive real estate in the state.

Lucre Dixat biatches
 
2013-09-26 01:07:33 PM

vernonFL: Are they building a line to Dulles?


that's the Silver Line,  Purple line is for Mongomery county
 
2013-09-26 01:07:38 PM
Meant to include this link in the above. If they build the new Blue Line crossing where they want to and put it on its own tracks, a Georgetown station becomes feasible. Until then, there are no rail tracks below Georgetown to accommodate a station.
 
2013-09-26 01:13:32 PM

Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Also, large contributors are more likely to be members of said club, and the campaign donations could dry up if the politicians cross them.
 
2013-09-26 01:17:07 PM

Magorn: vernonFL: Are they building a line to Dulles?

that's the Silver Line,  Purple line is for Mongomery county


Well, the original idea was to have it cross the river and connect somewhere in VA to orange and/or yellow lines which would have been the best idea.  Instead, we got the HOT lanes on the beltway which are ok now and will be worthless in a year or two.  Hooray.
 
2013-09-26 01:20:48 PM

tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...


I like the way you think.

/The wife, kid, and I are at Pub Dog every couple of Sundays.
//Been too long since I've brewed, need to get on that now that the weather's turning cold.
 
2013-09-26 01:21:14 PM

Magorn: 495- the Capitol beltway has two streches on its northern side where the road suddenly has hairpin curves reminiscent of a NASCAR track.  It is no coincidence that one of those turns curves away from the site of (at the time) the only Mormon Temple outside of Utah, and the other from an enclave of houses located on the most expensive real estate in the state.

Lucre Dixat biatches


I was coming to say something like that. The rest of the beltway is smooth except for there. Before IRTFA  I was thinking it may have been Congressional Country club. That would have caused a shiatstorm of epic proportions.

When I first heard about the purple line over 10 years ago the first map of it I saw was it wrapped around the beltway. Over the years it mutated into this.

And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.
 
2013-09-26 01:30:42 PM
Did subby or anyone else read as far as this bit?

The state would not need to condemn country club property, because the county already has a right of way about 100 feet wide through the golf course.

or even as far as this

Moving the proposed light-rail line about 12 feet to the north for 1,700 feet through the club's 100-year-old golf course would help protect clubhouse views and spare four holes

They don't need to use eminent domain and the line will still go through the golf course, just moved very slightly to one side. That sounds like a perfectly good idea, and nothing to get outraged about. Yeah, yeah, I know, welcome to fark.
 
2013-09-26 01:32:36 PM

vernonFL: Are they building a line to Dulles?


That's the Silver line in Virginia. Phase one out to Tyson's Corner comes online early next year, probably January or February. Phase two (which actually goes out past Dulles) is scheduled to be finished in 2018.

They'll also be building a new tunnel under the Potomac for the blue line somewhere in there, and eventually rerouting that line completely- I think they've said it'll basically go down M st. Yes, that means Georgetown should finally be getting a Metro station.
 
2013-09-26 01:35:12 PM

groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.


I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.
 
2013-09-26 01:39:02 PM

MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.


Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.
 
2013-09-26 01:53:02 PM

Carn: tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...

Well, I'm generally in favor of more roads, I was just alluding to the fact that it hasn't come close to bringing in the money in tolls or having the ridership they were claiming it would.


Well, it's not hard to understand why... I took it to and from work last year. It's a toll of farking $4 each way! $160+ is a lot of money for most people just for driving to and from work - and it's not mass transit so you're still paying for your car, gas, insurance, etc....

Being able to fly along on a nearly empty multilane highway is great if you can afford it though. The alternative is to go a few miles south to the beltway and want to rip your hair out every day. You know, like most normal people are pretty much forced to do.


rogue49: Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.


Testify! I now commute from Rockville out to Dulles every day and that route - in particular the American Legion Bridge - is a farking clusterfark. So we got the HOT lanes to help ease congestion..... well, that's what the HOT lanes were SAID to be for, but that's a bunch of bullshiat. They didn't even build the HOT lanes all the way to the goddamn bridge, they stopped them a few miles before in Tysons Corner - surprise surprise - right next to where another wealthy neighborhood is, who have their own ramp nestled back in the neighborhood, away from the main roads and right at the very start of the HOT lanes. I found that little gem by accident once while meeting a client in that neighborhood.

And the price for the HOT lanes goes UP as traffic gets heavier, not DOWN. When you take a close look at it that project is so blatantly not meant to do anything at all to reduce traffic congestion... it's meant to give wealthy people ways to get around better and not have to deal with the same sorts of problems regular folks do.

That's what kills me about these public/private partner toll roads like the ICC and the HOT lanes. All this money gets spent, land acquired, all this work is done, private companies allowed to collect revenue from them - and our congestion problems still remain utterly unresolved. The wealthy keep getting improvements that disproportionately ease the problems for them, but everyone else pretty much gets to go fark ourselves.
 
2013-09-26 01:53:21 PM
Getting a kick, work in state transportation-related eminent domain, etc.

From my own experience, granting concessions like that is really nothing new.  The fact that it's an outspoken foe of the project may have helped get them the concessions, but - "Moving the proposed light-rail line about 12 feet to the north for 1,700 feet through the club's 100-year-old golf course would help protect clubhouse views and spare four holes, according to the agreement..."It's only a 12 foot move.  It's not like they re-routed the entire proposed track, they just moved 1,700 feet worth of lines on paper 12 feet to the north.  Surely a pain in the butt for the engineers working on the project but it makes a whole lot of sense to move it if it minimizes the effect to the property.  (And it'll result in a lower the payment made to the property owner, which works out in the state's favor - acquiring property via eminent domain is NOT cheap.)  "Other concessions include a one-year limit for construction vehicles to use club property, guaranteed four-foot sound walls and promises of meetings at least every three months to discuss ongoing work."  Again, all fairly standard practice; capping the amount of time for the temporary easement on the property (for the construction vehicles) means less money that the state will have to pay out, and installation of sound walls certainly isn't unheard of in situations like this.  The meetings every three months though... that was probably some of that good ol' political pull and squeaky wheeling right there.

I've seen some crazy shiat compared to this; this really all seems more like standard practice and not political corruption.  If you want to see some true insanity at work, Google the history of the NY-135 on Long Island (Seaford - Oyster Bay Expressway).  My office still has all the original files on that project in storage, very cool to look through them but it hurts my head to think of all that work and the millions upon millions of dollars that ended up wasted in the end.
 
2013-09-26 01:57:25 PM

Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Have a computer 'build' the line and make lawsuit people file bonds up front.

Do the same with redistricting.

The computer will not care if you are rich, poor, white, brown, green with purple polka dots. It will put that line in the most efficient way possible.
 
2013-09-26 01:58:13 PM

Carn: MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.

Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.


So much of that. I took the ICC when it first opened and it was free for a week. Took me 30 min to go to work. That was nice and all but not 8 dollars a day round trip nice.  Now when I pass over the bridge right after Georgia Ave you see this big empty road. There was more traffic on it when they were building it.
 
2013-09-26 01:58:53 PM
Sounds like they reached a very workable agreement.

What's the problem, Subby?
 
2013-09-26 02:05:03 PM
This MTA spokesman, Henson... sounds like the real puppet master to me.
 
2013-09-26 02:08:02 PM

Weaver95: Did they get a tax cut? Because they probably need a tax cut too. And an apology. We should give those rich golfers a tax cut and a nice solid apology.


They're probably getting significant tax breaks for maintaining open spaces. Most country clubs are.

However, nearby Burning Tree Country Club gave up its tax breaks rather than admit women to the club. You can't get tax breaks and blatantly discriminate. More subtle discrimination, like not being able to get an a.m. weekend tee time if you're female, is just fine.
 
2013-09-26 02:10:10 PM

iamepic: Gonz: Did you know that country club members are often affluent? And, as such, have access to lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?

Did you know that country club members are often lawyers who can file lawsuits and make life hell for people who bother them?


Did you know that the judges who would be hearing these lawsuits are often country club members as well? And even if the case doesn't pertain to their home club, they are- at the very least- more likely to be sympathetic?

//Or likely to send boys to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. Felt they owed it to them.
 
2013-09-26 02:10:32 PM

robertus: tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...

I like the way you think.

/The wife, kid, and I are at Pub Dog every couple of Sundays.
//Been too long since I've brewed, need to get on that now that the weather's turning cold.


I knew I wasn't the only one!
You been to Frisco Grill and Tap House just down Dobbin from the Pub Dog? Food's pretty decent and a MASSIVE selection of brews.

You know MDHB sells stills out in the open now too right?
 
2013-09-26 02:15:57 PM

Carn: tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...

Well, I'm generally in favor of more roads, I was just alluding to the fact that it hasn't come close to bringing in the money in tolls or having the ridership they were claiming it would.


Oh, from a ridership/money view it's a miserable failure. Nobody really wants to pay $8 per day to go from one miserably over crowded road to another in a hurry. It's literally only good when I need to get from work in Potomac to Columbia in a hurry.
 
2013-09-26 02:17:47 PM

mongbiohazard: Carn: tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...

Well, I'm generally in favor of more roads, I was just alluding to the fact that it hasn't come close to bringing in the money in tolls or having the ridership they were claiming it would.

Well, it's not hard to understand why... I took it to and from work last year. It's a toll of farking $4 each way! $160+ is a lot of money for most people just for driving to and from work - and it's not mass transit so you're still paying for your car, gas, insurance, etc....

Being able to fly along on a nearly empty multilane highway is great if you can afford it though. The alternative is to go a few miles south to the beltway and want to rip your hair out every day. You know, like most normal people are pretty much forced to do.


rogue49: Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.

Testify! I now commute from Rockville out to Dulles every day and that route - in particular the American Legion Bridge - is a farking clusterfark. So we got the HOT lanes to help ease congestion..... well, that's what the HOT lanes were SAID to be for, but that's a bunch of bullshiat. They didn't even build the HOT lanes all the way to the goddamn bridge, they stopped them a few miles before in Tysons Corner - surprise surprise - right next to where another wealthy neighborhood is, who have their own ramp nestled back in the neighborhood, away from the main roads and right at the very start of the HOT lanes. I found ...


Welcome to my world.  I live in Leesburg and Work in downtown DC Since rt 7 is always a parking lot in the morning my only real option were I to drive to work would be to pay the $5.50 each way toll on the Dulles Greenway, then fork over another $2.75 each way on the Dulles Toll road (when I started using it in 2005 the toll was $1.25 total)...all so I could pick up a "slug" on I-66 so I could use the road now that it is ALL HOV-2 to get downtown and pay $10/day for parking. (for a grand total of $26.50/day, or $530 mo before getting to gas and wear and tear on the vehicle- I have no idea how people making, say $10/hr manage that commute)

Personally I use the Loudon  County commuter Bus instead.  It may be $7 each way, but I already come out ahead on tolls alone to say nothing of gas, maintenance and parking (and if i ever end up working directly for the Fed Gov again, they pick up $250 monthly of the cost since it counts as mass transit)
 
2013-09-26 02:22:21 PM

groppet: Carn: MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.

Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.

So much of that. I took the ICC when it first opened and it was free for a week. Took me 30 min to go to work. That was nice and all but not 8 dollars a day round trip nice.  Now when I pass over the bridge right after Georgia Ave you see this big empty road. There was more traffic on it when they were building it.


Yeah every now and again if you're in a mega hurry or absolutely can't be late for a meeting or something, sure it's great, but like you say nobody's paying that shiat every day.  While we're talking about shiatty tolls, Dulles Toll Road is getting farking ridiculous too.  It was $5 a day for me and that's not even the green way and they're gonna raise them again to pay for the second phase of the silver.  So glad I get to work from home.
 
2013-09-26 02:26:14 PM
Actually, if leaders were smart in DC...  (but look who we're talking about...)
You'd have a variety new lines.

- Fredericksberg VA: surpassing the Quantico/95 bottleneck, extending the Yellow South
- Frederick MD: extending the Red line North up the 270 corridor
- Manassas VA: extending the Orange line West up 66
- Columbia MD: complimenting the MARC and extending the Green
- Annapolis MD: surpassing the 50 and extending the Orange East

Basically, they just need to extend the existing lines out making it available to all the burbs which all the inside employees use...
and one move from one burb to another.  Because, many burbs have Large companies wanting to be near Congress/WH...and the multiple tech corridors.

It's just going to get more congested over time.
DC is just going to keep growing.
It is the center of power in the US...and the money doesn't fall far from the well.

Soon it will be like London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, etc...
 
2013-09-26 02:30:15 PM

MrBallou: ImpendingCynic: rogue49: Don't even get me started on needed connector from Northern VA to 270.
To relieve the HUGE bottleneck on the American Legion Bridge...
...and the Tyson's area, Dulles/Beltway area and 270/495 merge.

But NO, we cannot disturb the riches in Potomac.
including several golf courses and the Congressional.

A friend of mine once wrote to MDOT asking about the western Potomac bridge idea, and was basically told "we refuse to consider it, so don't even bother asking again." But they did offer the helpful advice of driving 80 miles out of the way to cross at Point of Rocks, which is totally equipped to handle a couple of hundred thousand people per day trying to avoid the beltway.*

* the same friend insisted on correcting me every time I called it that - "it's the Cabin John Bridge!" whatever.

The  Potomac area, where the DC/MD elite live in multi-million dollar mansions, is right under the flight path for Dulles. There are planes roaring overhead constantly. As a poor guy, I take some comfort from this.


I wonder if they would consider a tunnel under the Potomac and all the other land the riches own.
I mean their pristine earth surfaces wouldn't be touched or besmirched...it would be far below.
Hell, they did it for the Red line West.
That's where the elite used to be in DC NW...
 
2013-09-26 02:34:36 PM
Ummm, I hate to step on some of the derping, but rtfa. They are moving it a whole 12 feet, it's still crossing the country club.
 
2013-09-26 02:52:29 PM

Carn: groppet: Carn: MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.

Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.

So much of that. I took the ICC when it first opened and it was free for a week. Took me 30 min to go to work. That was nice and all but not 8 dollars a day round trip nice.  Now when I pass over the bridge right after Georgia Ave you see this big empty road. There was more traffic on it when they were building it.

Yeah every now and again if you're in a mega hurry or absolutely can't be late for a meeting or something, sure it's great, but like you say nobody's paying that shiat every day.  While we're talking about shiatty tolls, Dulles Toll Road is getting farking ridiculous too.  It was $5 a day for me and that's not even the green way and they're gonna raise them again to pay for the second phase of the silver.  So glad I get to work from home.


CSB: It's a funny thing, but I drive the Beltway from MD to Alexandria early on Saturday mornings sometimes. Traffic is very light and zipping along at 75+ (55 MPH speed limit - heh) and I see cars in the HOT lane who have evidently paid the toll (lower based on usage but still charged), going no faster than anybody else. I wonder if they do it for some strange psychological reason, like feeling special for $0.20 per mile.
 
2013-09-26 03:03:32 PM

MrBallou: Carn: groppet: Carn: MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.

Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.

So much of that. I took the ICC when it first opened and it was free for a week. Took me 30 min to go to work. That was nice and all but not 8 dollars a day round trip nice.  Now when I pass over the bridge right after Georgia Ave you see this big empty road. There was more traffic on it when they were building it.

Yeah every now and again if you're in a mega hurry or absolutely can't be late for a meeting or something, sure it's great, but like you say nobody's paying that shiat every day.  While we're talking about shiatty tolls, Dulles Toll Road is getting farking ridiculous too.  It was $5 a day for me and that's not even the green way and they're gonna raise them again to pay for the second phase of the silver.  So glad I get to work from home.

CSB: It's a funny thing, but I drive the Beltway from MD to Alexandria early on Saturday mornings sometimes. Traffic is very light and zipping along at 75+ (55 MPH speed limit - heh) and I see cars in the HOT lane who have evidently paid the toll (lower based on usage but still charged), going no faster than anybody else. I wonder if they do it for some strange psychological reason, like feeling special for $0.20 per mile.


Sometimes you don't know if the traffic 3 miles down the road is going to be a nightmare, and for $0.20 it is worth not risking it.  Personally, I have never used the toll road, but there have been a couple times when there must have been an accident or something, and I would ahve KILLED to be flying by in the HOT lanes instead of stuck in a parking lot on 495.  Of course, the entrance to the lanes was a mile behind me, so I was stuck, just wishing I would have paid the $0.20 instead of thinking "nah, its the weekend, it will be clear sailing".  Granted, I don't drive that way much anymore, so it was just an inconvenient day, as opposed to an awful commute every morning and afternoon.
 
2013-09-26 03:08:53 PM

rogue49: Actually, if leaders were smart in DC...  (but look who we're talking about...)
You'd have a variety new lines.

- Fredericksberg VA: surpassing the Quantico/95 bottleneck, extending the Yellow South
- Frederick MD: extending the Red line North up the 270 corridor
- Manassas VA: extending the Orange line West up 66
- Columbia MD: complimenting the MARC and extending the Green
- Annapolis MD: surpassing the 50 and extending the Orange East

Basically, they just need to extend the existing lines out making it available to all the burbs which all the inside employees use...
and one move from one burb to another.  Because, many burbs have Large companies wanting to be near Congress/WH...and the multiple tech corridors.

It's just going to get more congested over time.
DC is just going to keep growing.
It is the center of power in the US...and the money doesn't fall far from the well.

Soon it will be like London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, etc...


I want this to happen so badly.  It makes a lot of sense, but I guess would also be super expensive.  I wish they would have run it south down I-95 to Fredericksburg instead of extending the HOT lanes south (which of course don't even go to Rt. 17 before the Rappahannock river, nooooooooo, we'll just stop em at Aquia so the ridiculous bottleneck will be a few miles farther south than it currently is).

Of course, my property value would probably increase from this as well since I would likely be along one of the very first stops south of Huntington along an extended yellow line.  So that would be cool.

VRE would probably be pissed since it would take away from Fredericksburg ridership...but maybe it is worth it for a non-stop train.  Man...how long would a metro ride be from Fredericksburg?  How many stops along the way? 2-3 in Farifax, 4-5 through Prince William, and another 4-5 in Fredericksburg?  Or is that too many?  I guess it would still beat driving down that corridor of pain twice daily.
 
2013-09-26 03:10:10 PM

MrBallou: Carn: groppet: Carn: MrBallou: groppet: And fark the ICC that empty ass toll road. Ill take 198 to work tyvm.

I live just off of 198. I was hoping ICC would relieve traffic there, like the planners said it would. Instead, people don't want to pay the toll for ICC, so they keep beating on that 2 lane road and leaving ICC practically empty.

This shows how one little political decision, i.e., to pay for it partially by making it a toll road, undid the the main goal of otherwise careful planning.

Well maybe if they didn't make the toll so farking high people wouldn't mind paying it.  It's farking stupid.  And the HOT lanes can kiss my ass too.

So much of that. I took the ICC when it first opened and it was free for a week. Took me 30 min to go to work. That was nice and all but not 8 dollars a day round trip nice.  Now when I pass over the bridge right after Georgia Ave you see this big empty road. There was more traffic on it when they were building it.

Yeah every now and again if you're in a mega hurry or absolutely can't be late for a meeting or something, sure it's great, but like you say nobody's paying that shiat every day.  While we're talking about shiatty tolls, Dulles Toll Road is getting farking ridiculous too.  It was $5 a day for me and that's not even the green way and they're gonna raise them again to pay for the second phase of the silver.  So glad I get to work from home.

CSB: It's a funny thing, but I drive the Beltway from MD to Alexandria early on Saturday mornings sometimes. Traffic is very light and zipping along at 75+ (55 MPH speed limit - heh) and I see cars in the HOT lane who have evidently paid the toll (lower based on usage but still charged), going no faster than anybody else. I wonder if they do it for some strange psychological reason, like feeling special for $0.20 per mile.


I took it once after work (267 to Gallows exit) and it wasn't much faster but it was a day where traffic wasn't too bad on the normal side.  I've got a friend at work who swears by it though (he lives in Arlington) because on the shiatty days it saves your ass.  I'm with you though I don't think I'd ever take it on a weekend except on a holiday, although it's so cheap it might be worth it.
 
2013-09-26 03:11:26 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: rogue49: Actually, if leaders were smart in DC...  (but look who we're talking about...)
You'd have a variety new lines.

- Fredericksberg VA: surpassing the Quantico/95 bottleneck, extending the Yellow South
- Frederick MD: extending the Red line North up the 270 corridor
- Manassas VA: extending the Orange line West up 66
- Columbia MD: complimenting the MARC and extending the Green
- Annapolis MD: surpassing the 50 and extending the Orange East

Basically, they just need to extend the existing lines out making it available to all the burbs which all the inside employees use...
and one move from one burb to another.  Because, many burbs have Large companies wanting to be near Congress/WH...and the multiple tech corridors.

It's just going to get more congested over time.
DC is just going to keep growing.
It is the center of power in the US...and the money doesn't fall far from the well.

Soon it will be like London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, etc...

I want this to happen so badly.  It makes a lot of sense, but I guess would also be super expensive.  I wish they would have run it south down I-95 to Fredericksburg instead of extending the HOT lanes south (which of course don't even go to Rt. 17 before the Rappahannock river, nooooooooo, we'll just stop em at Aquia so the ridiculous bottleneck will be a few miles farther south than it currently is).

Of course, my property value would probably increase from this as well since I would likely be along one of the very first stops south of Huntington along an extended yellow line.  So that would be cool.

VRE would probably be pissed since it would take away from Fredericksburg ridership...but maybe it is worth it for a non-stop train.  Man...how long would a metro ride be from Fredericksburg?  How many stops along the way? 2-3 in Farifax, 4-5 through Prince William, and another 4-5 in Fredericksburg?  Or is that too many?  I guess it would still beat driving down that corridor of pain twice daily.


Yeah it would still beat 95.  I can't believe people can put up with that every day.  I do it once in a blue moon and the whole ride is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
 
2013-09-26 03:33:10 PM

rogue49: Basically, they just need to extend the existing lines out making it available to all the burbs which all the inside employees use...


I originally thought, and pretty much still hold, that the Purple Line should be heavy rail and should be extended as a belt line connecting of the lines somewhere outside of the District. Only when we have added redundancy to current layout should we talk about extending it, and we probably need a moratorium on extending the Orange/Silver until we find a way to reduce the crowding. A ring line would also make it possible to use mass transit for suburb to suburb commutes, like say from Bethesda to the new FDA HQ in White Marsh or to the Pentagon without ever having to pass through downtown.

Also, a line like that would facilitate maintenance as you could actually close segments of a line on the weekends and route people around the ring if you planned it right.
 
2013-09-26 03:38:47 PM

orbister: Did subby or anyone else read as far as this bit?

The state would not need to condemn country club property, because the county already has a right of way about 100 feet wide through the golf course.

or even as far as this

Moving the proposed light-rail line about 12 feet to the north for 1,700 feet through the club's 100-year-old golf course would help protect clubhouse views and spare four holes

They don't need to use eminent domain and the line will still go through the golf course, just moved very slightly to one side. That sounds like a perfectly good idea, and nothing to get outraged about. Yeah, yeah, I know, welcome to fark.


Except that by virtue of the right of way the State may have had an absolute right to cross the property without having to expropriate or pay (depending on the terms of the right of way) but instead conceded to the club, where it did not need to, at considerable cost.
 
2013-09-26 03:54:41 PM
Is the purple line still supposed to be a light rail or did they change that too?
 
2013-09-26 04:00:21 PM

groppet: Is the purple line still supposed to be a light rail or did they change that too?


Looks like it.
 
2013-09-26 07:08:07 PM

rattchett: orbister: The state would not need to condemn country club property, because the county already has a right of way about 100 feet wide through the golf course.

Except that by virtue of the right of way the State may have had an absolute right to cross the property without having to expropriate or pay (depending on the terms of the right of way) but instead conceded to the club, where it did not need to, at considerable cost.


Except that they are clearly not going to do any more than move the line of the track twelve feet across the right of way they already have. What "considerable cost" do you think is additionally involved in doing so?
 
2013-09-26 07:43:28 PM
Building underpasses for the golf carts.
 
2013-09-26 09:05:52 PM

Magorn: 495- the Capitol beltway has two streches on its northern side where the road suddenly has hairpin curves reminiscent of a NASCAR track.  It is no coincidence that one of those turns curves away from the site of (at the time) the only Mormon Temple outside of Utah, and the other from an enclave of houses located on the most expensive real estate in the state.

Lucre Dixat biatches


Yeah, but do you have any idea how much fun those curves are at 160mph on a sportbike at 1am?  I farking LOVE the Capitol Beltway.

/thanks Mormons and rich assholes!
 
2013-09-26 11:03:43 PM

tallen702: robertus: tallen702: Carn: Wait, they actually approved the Purple Line?  I'm glad to see they waited til after they wasted all that time and money on the ICC.

Hey now... The ICC gets me to Maryland Home Brew and The Pub Dog in Columbia waaaaay more efficiently than taking the Beltway or I-70 would. Definitely NOT a waste IMHO...

I like the way you think.

/The wife, kid, and I are at Pub Dog every couple of Sundays.
//Been too long since I've brewed, need to get on that now that the weather's turning cold.

I knew I wasn't the only one!
You been to Frisco Grill and Tap House just down Dobbin from the Pub Dog? Food's pretty decent and a MASSIVE selection of brews.


We've been there a couple times, but it's been almost a year. The wife's a vegetarian, and their options got kind of limited for a while. We do need to check it out again. One of our first dates was at their original location, which was (coincidentally) next to the Riverside Coffee by Pub Dog.

There's also the Columbia Alehouse on the opposite end of Dobbin (by 175). Olivers is their house beer, and they've had a bunch of other stuff on tap. Food's pretty solid. Gets a bit pricey, but worth a go.

You know MDHB sells stills out in the open now too right?

No, I didn't know that. *makes shifty eyes*
 
2013-09-27 04:52:18 AM
Best day of my life was the day I left the wretched state of Maryland.  Florida is a HUGE improvement.
 
2013-09-27 07:01:14 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Sometimes you don't know if the traffic 3 miles down the road is going to be a nightmare, and for $0.20 it is worth not risking it. Personally, I have never used the toll road, but there have been a couple times when there must have been an accident or something, and I would ahve KILLED to be flying by in the HOT lanes instead of stuck in a parking lot on 495. Of course, the entrance to the lanes was a mile behind me, so I was stuck, just wishing I would have paid the $0.20 instead of thinking "nah, its the weekend, it will be clear sailing". Granted, I don't drive that way much anymore, so it was just an inconvenient day, as opposed to an awful commute every morning and afternoon.


If you have a smartphone, I think your best bet is to use Waze to check the traffic conditions before you get to the HOT entrance.
 
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