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(Orlando Sentinel)   What do Orlando gun owners need? Free shotguns, according to one gun rights group   (orlandosentinel.com) divider line 70
    More: Florida, Orlando, Acp, shotguns, property crime, guns  
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2093 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Sep 2013 at 11:44 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-24 08:24:29 PM
How else will they shoot invisible gorillas?
 
2013-09-24 08:30:36 PM
They tried that here in Arizona. Until smarter people realized gun nuts were hoping minorities and poor people would just kill each other off.

That would have meant good bu$iness for
Police
Prisons
Hospitals
Morgues
 
2013-09-24 08:38:50 PM

Godscrack: They tried that here in Arizona. Until smarter people realized gun nuts were hoping minorities and poor people would just kill each other off.

That would have meant good bu$iness for
Police
Prisons
Hospitals
Morgues


How badly did the giveaway cause rates of violent crime to increase in the state?
 
2013-09-24 08:42:20 PM
I'd like a free shotgun.
 
2013-09-24 08:49:36 PM
I'm all for this. If only they could achieve universal or near-universal gun ownership.

I'd love to see how that shook out over a decade or so.
 
2013-09-24 09:19:32 PM

birdmanesq: I'm all for this. If only they could achieve universal or near-universal gun ownership.

I'd love to see how that shook out over a decade or so.


The current 1:1 ratio doesn't tell you enough?
 
2013-09-24 09:33:44 PM
ACP of Florida has not given away a single shotgun since being founded about six months ago in the Tampa area, said state director Ron Ritter.

Sounds like a fundraising scam to me.
 
2013-09-24 09:40:09 PM

fusillade762: ACP of Florida has not given away a single shotgun since being founded about six months ago in the Tampa area, said state director Ron Ritter.

Sounds like a fundraising scam to me.


Alternatively, the shotguns being offered are of such low quality that they are not worth the price asked.
 
2013-09-24 10:36:15 PM
They should also get free ammo and liquor
 
2013-09-24 10:38:06 PM
Orlando gun owners need free shotguns like they need a hole in the head.

/it's true
 
2013-09-24 11:47:06 PM
Why do gun owners need another gun?
 
2013-09-24 11:47:19 PM
I think this is kinda stupid. The free training is pretty cool, but it is a cheap garbage shotgun and if someone really wants one they can probably find a way to afford it. Any money would be better spent giving free safety and training classes to prospective firearms buyers in troubled areas, and then helping them pick the appropriate firearm (if after the training they still decide a firearm is appropriate in their home) for their situation.
 
2013-09-24 11:47:20 PM
God I can't wait to leave this shiathole of a state. T-Minus 2 years and counting...
 
2013-09-24 11:47:33 PM
Darwin's little helpers.
 
2013-09-24 11:48:56 PM
Give 'em what they want
 
2013-09-24 11:49:56 PM

jaytkay: Why do gun owners need another gun?


To guard their other gun. Duh!
 
2013-09-24 11:51:02 PM
I would assume that non-gun owners would need the gun.  Pedestrians need cars, poor people need money, and naked people need clothes.
 
2013-09-24 11:52:55 PM

Rapmaster2000: I would assume that non-gun owners would need the gun.  Pedestrians need cars, poor people need money, and naked people need clothes.


These free guns are for Orlando gun owners... The kind known for shooting first and asking questions later... I assume these cheap shotties will be used as throwdown guns during some late night vigilantism.
 
2013-09-24 11:54:00 PM

shanrick: Orlando gun owners need free shotguns like they need a hole in the head.

/it's true


Nah, they've been doing a great job of killing each other since 2005. Thanks, Katrina!
 
2013-09-24 11:54:39 PM

jaytkay: Why do gun owners need another gun?



Really all you need (I hear ) is the shotgun then you can get all the guns you need.
 
2013-09-24 11:55:43 PM

Rapmaster2000: I would assume that non-gun owners would need the gun.  Pedestrians need cars, poor people need money, and naked people need clothes.


I need naked people. Hot blonde female naked people.
 
2013-09-24 11:56:42 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-09-24 11:56:57 PM
Violent crime rates are at a  20 year low, how are you commenters proposing we put America back on top? Pacificism, Neutrality?  I say, what makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was subby just born with a heart full of neutrality?

/NUMBA ONEEEEEEEEEEE USA
 
2013-09-24 11:58:18 PM
Stupid post subby, the government should take away your 1st Amendment Right to post that.

government=Drew
 
2013-09-24 11:58:19 PM
Thinking about getting a shotgun. The question is a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500?
 
2013-09-24 11:58:40 PM
s3.vidimg.popscreen.comShotgun!
 
2013-09-24 11:59:58 PM

Now I Is!: [25.media.tumblr.com image 500x163]


Must be Miracle Day.

4.bp.blogspot.com

/good thing rocket launchers are still good to shoot down helicopters
 
2013-09-25 12:02:09 AM

hundreddollarman: Thinking about getting a shotgun. The question is a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500?


Ithaca 37
 
2013-09-25 12:02:23 AM
Dear Fark,

Please fix your comment editor so text after inline images is properly carriage returned. It seems the carriage return is getting stripped.

Thanks,
AAG
 
2013-09-25 12:10:03 AM

hundreddollarman: Thinking about getting a shotgun. The question is a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500?


Remington's an easier brand to maintain and repair in general, in my experience.  Both are pretty solid quality-wise, though.  The standard button-safety the 870 uses is also nice and simple if you've got kids on the range with you, they've got a nice orange circle so they can easily see when they're doing it right.
 
2013-09-25 12:14:29 AM
What an Orlando-area gun owner might look like:

a.abcnews.com
 
2013-09-25 12:14:41 AM

Dimensio: Godscrack: They tried that here in Arizona. Until smarter people realized gun nuts were hoping minorities and poor people would just kill each other off.

That would have meant good bu$iness for
Police
Prisons
Hospitals
Morgues

How badly did the giveaway cause rates of violent crime to increase in the state?


They tried it here in Tucson. Single-shot shotguns.
There were no takers.
 
2013-09-25 12:21:30 AM

hundreddollarman: Thinking about getting a shotgun. The question is a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500?


I remember watching Dick Trickle win the Mossberg 500 back in the day.
 
2013-09-25 12:24:17 AM

Danger Avoid Death: hundreddollarman: Thinking about getting a shotgun. The question is a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500?

I remember watching Dick Trickle win the Mossberg 500 back in the day.


Meh

/people only go to those things to watch dicks run into the walls
 
2013-09-25 12:43:56 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: They should also get free ammo and liquor


Go Packers!
 
2013-09-25 12:49:26 AM
Just another scam aimed at gun chumps.

/bullseye!
 
2013-09-25 12:50:12 AM
Mockers gonna mock
Sensible adults gonna be sensible
John Kerry is going to lie

These things are inevitable
 
2013-09-25 12:50:16 AM
If they are giving away free shotguns, I will take one of these:

www.activeresponsetraining.net
 
2013-09-25 12:52:38 AM
Yeah, here's the problem:  To keep the gun safe in a typical home you'd need a gun safe.  And then when you need the gun it's in the safe and takes too long to bring into the action.  They need to speed the "finger-print trigger" to the market.

/oh, wait I-Phone
 
2013-09-25 01:00:31 AM
If ever there was a case when life imitated art, it's GTA :: Orlando.

Went down there last month. I've never seen more loose, shady shiat happening all around me, in multiple forms ever, in my entire life. And this is from someone who regularly has frequented the not-so-nice parts of: 

Baltimore
New Haven
The Bronx / Brooklyn / 125th st.

Orlando is currently winning hands down for batshiat nuts. People stopping in mid-turn into oncoming traffic for no reason. Stopping in the middle of the road for no reason. Someone rear-ended us, and then took off, we chased. (I was stuck in full on what-is-happening-you-just-picked-me-up-from-the-airport-and-now-this mode). Catch up to woman. SHe laughs and says 'Oh! I don't have insurance! Acquaintance picking me up laughs and says 'Oh wow! Neither do I!" They laugh and then she comes onto him, and gives him her number.

OK.

Over the next three days the police came by twice to break up two different domestic violence disputes next to the house I was staying at. I heard gunfire.

The sheer amount of ass-quackery, kafuffle and general brain-off attitude of everyone I encountered was jaw-dropping. I'm a very easy-going guy; when you're pushing mollusk levels of non-thought, it's breathtaking.
 
2013-09-25 01:01:51 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Dimensio: Godscrack: They tried that here in Arizona. Until smarter people realized gun nuts were hoping minorities and poor people would just kill each other off.

That would have meant good bu$iness for
Police
Prisons
Hospitals
Morgues

How badly did the giveaway cause rates of violent crime to increase in the state?

They tried it here in Tucson. Single-shot shotguns.
There were no takers.


I can see why when all they had were single shot models, almost no one uses them now and the gun shop that donated was probably glad to get the tax write off for clearing them out of his shop and making room for stock that will sell.
 
2013-09-25 01:02:05 AM

jso2897: Darwin's little helpers.




Because suicidal people make good breeders?
 
2013-09-25 01:08:47 AM
Does Orlando have any gun buyback programs?  If so, why not profit off the gun nuts.
 
2013-09-25 01:11:06 AM
The last gunshop I went too had an over under 'home defense' shotgun with rails everywhere. And I thought how silly it was, cause how can you call it home defense without a bayonet lug? It also cost more than a pump, which baffles me.
 
2013-09-25 01:17:32 AM
I'd be much happier if they'd give free training to the EXISTING gun owners...


And now time to trot out what may become an obligatory post in gun threads (people have outright told me this should be obligatory, but..)

Pretty much most gun policy seems to be centered around two primary assumptions:

1) (anti-gun) The "Well-regulated militia" in the Constitution is the National Guard and nobody has any business having shooty-things unless they are law enforcement.

2) (hyper-pro-gun) GAWD AND THOMAS JEFFERSON INTENDED US TO HAVE AN ARSENAL GODDAMNIT IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT GOES ROGUE AND WE HAS TO WATER THE TREE OF LIBURTY.

Rather more accurate is Option 3 which NOBODY ever mentions EVAR:

3) The US Army did not exist in peacetime and law enforcement as we know it now did not exist at the time (and would not exist until the 1840s), hence the only way to put down a domestic insurrection or even a criminal gang (much less incursions from First Nations and the like)...was, quite literally, calling up a posse (the "unorganised militia" in question).

3a) The part nobody ever, EVER mentions--this was in fact a neutering of an older provision in the Articles of Confederation (the "First Constitution" that had the US organised in a very European Union-esque confederacy of what amounted to thirteen distinct and separate countries with a currency union and a common defense and foreign policy) that not only mandated that every competent adult male be explicitly trained in the use of firearms at regular intervals but explicitly required the state governments to maintain armories and staff to train men to serve in the state guard should they need to be called up in an emergency.

(Yes, the original policy of the US re the "right to keep and bear arms" from roughly 1779 to 1791 or so was pretty much the same as Switzerland's national defense force; every male was considered a member of his state's (canton's, in the case of Switzerland) defense force, was required to undergo two weeks of mandatory weapons training, and was required to keep weapons issued by the state/canton armory up until the youngest male in the household hit 40 and aged out of the national militia.)

3b) Because the concepts of "state police with shooty weapons" (much less "city police") and "permanent standing armed forces" were Not Yet A Thing during Madison's time, and pretty much everyone assumed that short of frank war with France or the UK or Spain that any war or insurrection to be fought would be either in the form of armed gangs or First Nations uprisings...well, the writers pretty much instantly assumed that anything short of Frank National Emergency status would be handled by calling up the "unorganised militia" to start up a posse.In other words, that whole section should be read as "Since we will need to start up a posse now and again, folks should be allowed to have guns" (as opposed to the Articles of Confederation's "Everyone is a member of their state Army Reserves, and the state must give mandatory military weapons training and maintain a stocked arsenal in case the goddamn Redcoats start marching through from Canada or the Iroquois Confederacy starts getting really pissy about the land we stole").

3c) The "Well regulated militia" bit pretty much is a giveaway (especially in conjunction with the old Articles of Confederation version) that it was assumed by the Founding Fathers that people would be getting regular firearms training--basically the Revolutionary War Era version of CCW and Home Defense courses, provided courtesy of the governor of your state.The concept was far less "Every goddamn yahoo with a gun" and more "We're actually going to teach the guys how NOT to shoot their own peckers off and how to properly point the gun and fire it at the OTHER guy, and also make sure his damn musket that's been in his family since 1589 isn't going to blow the hell up in his face when he tries to fire it".
"Well regulated" in this case meant "Properly trained"--translated to modern English, "A properly trained state defense force being necessary to public safety, people shall be allowed to keep and bear arms for home defense and state defense (and, we assume, the state will keep on training them how to do this without killing themselves)".

3d) Another data point towards "unregulated militia" meaning "draftable individuals with explicit firearms training" are the Militia Acts of 1792 and particularly the Second Militia Act of 1792 (arguably the first law calling for an explicit draft, and the second act passed after full ratification of the present Constitution).It would probably be termed an "unfunded mandate for a Swiss-style state defense force" nowadays; the law called for every man between 18 and 45 years old to be required to purchase a gun and appropriate ammunition (down to specifying the type of weapon and ammo that had to be purchased and maintained at all times) and were required to report twice a year for military training.(Some groups--notably, Congressmen and transportation workers such as ferrymen and stagecoach drivers that were considered essential for national defense--were exempt; otherwise, the law applied for every man in the US able to hold a firearm.)  Basically for a time we went back to the old Articles of Confederation-era standard, if by an act of Congress this time and not a Constitutional amendment.

The Militia Acts of 1792 are notable because it's one of those rare times it's very easy to tell the whole intent of the Founding Fathers towards the Second Amendment--they intended there to be an emergency quickly-musterable state defense force in the event that Shiat Happened and an army couldn't get there in time or was too small of a situation for a full-on army.(The Acts were passed due to the US Army having its arse handed to it by the Western Confederacy (a rather large NATO-of-the-18th-century group of First Nations) in St. Clair's Defeat.)

tl;dr version: Madison never quite anticipated the invention of police departments or permanent armed forces, and people all assumed the state guards would keep going (they do still exist, both in the form of the National Guard and a few non-National Guard state militias in places like Texas and Alaska--and in the more traditional sense of men having to register for Selective Service)--what unfortunately changed is that pretty much the old mechanism where training was MANDATORY went away roughly in 1795 (when the Second Militia Act expired).

The "failure to define what was meant as a well-regulated militia" bug is an easy enough bugfix, and could be done very, very easily in keeping with the spirit of the Founding Fathers:

a) Define "unorganised militia" explicitly as persons who have received training in the use of weapons for defense after an appropriate training period.

b) Establish a national training program for use of firearms and require persons who wish to own a firearm to receive specific training including safety training and target training and to be certified by a trainer as being capable of safe use of a firearm.(There is already precedent for this in two separate programs--CCW courses and hunter safety courses; pretty much all states have required mandatory hunter safety courses for anyone younger than about thirty to get a hunting license for gun season, and some have expanded this to bow and crossbow hunting too.In essence, we're expanding the training programs for CCW and/or hunter safety courses to all firearms use, with an additional psychological screening component and vision check--depression that is controlled would not be disqualifying, whilst severe/profound mental illness would; correctable vision issues would be fine, folks who require prismatic lenses to drive might have more issues :D.(This is also the current definition for whether or not someone is considered 4-F on mental health and visual/physical issues, as an aside.))Provisions can even be made for persons who have passed a hunter safety course or a CCW course or similar training course to be grandfathered in.Persons shall be required to retrain and recertify on a regular basis.

(As an aside--I personally am unaware of any successful legal challenges, or even attempts at legal challenges, to CCW laws and hunter safety courses.The closest I've seen to legal challenges is where states have been reluctant to issue CCW permits when reciprocity agreements exist.This is true even though pretty much all CCW courses and hunter safety courses cost money, and is still applicable even in states where "right to hunt" laws exist.)

c) Explicitly note that firearms sales shall only be made to persons who are eligible to be members of the unorganised militia under law (that is, mentally competent persons whom have completed a firearms safety course of some sort) and that documentation that the person has completed a firearms safety and training course must be provided to complete a sale.Further mandate that states may not prohibit a person who has successfully completed a federally approved firearms safety course from owning a firearm unless a major disqualifying condition occurs such as diagnosis of severe/profound mental illness.

d) In the event that a major disqualifying condition becomes apparent between certification testing periods (such as loss of vision, severe/profound mental illness or intellectual disability, other severe physical handicap that renders use of a firearm unsafe even with assistive technology, domestic violence conviction, or other federally disqualifying condition) then the firearms will be confiscated to be held in trust and permit denied until such time as a hearing can be held whether it is likely the person can be sufficiently trained in the safe use of firearms.If it is likely that the disqualifying condition is permanent or relapsing to such a point as to render their use or possession of firearms unsafe the weapons will be sold at fair market price to an authorised firearms sales agent and the person shall receive full compensation, or may alternatively sell their weapons to a person who successfully has completed a federally approved firearms safety course.

e) Amend the Constitution appropriately with said bugfix (easiest way to get things through).

In the case of kids, I'd be tempted to include:

f) Graduated firearms permits for younguns (this actually exists now at least for hunting)--kids not allowed to use a firearm without adult supervision and adult ability to control the weapon until they hit the age where hunter safety courses are available; kid must complete firearms safety course to be allowed to have firearms.(Again, similar to what is in place now for hunter safety and nobody has yet sued over the whole issue of kids needing hunter safety courses.Hell, in areas where hunting is common it's not all that unusual to see schools offering said hunter safety courses! :D)

Pretty much the only people who would be unhappy are the Gun Owners of America types who even think background checks for gun sales are condensed evil.The NRA et al would be grousy at first but would end up happy (as they could make money from firearms training courses including adaptive firearms training for persons with disabilities--the NRA actually tends to run most of the hunter safety courses nationwide and a goodly chunk of the CCW training courses as well).People wanting to keep weapons out of the hands of the excessively violent and severely mentally ill (and folks who literally can't see to shoot straight) would be happy.Derpy history geeks like me would be happy (as we'd actually have a well-regulated unorganised militia for the first time since 1796 :D).If we can make the training cheap or free with subsidy, even folks worried re the poor and/or folks worried re the constitutionality of charging for a Firearms Safety Training Cert will be happy (though I'd argue anyone who can afford a handgun could afford training courses, and certainly so with long-guns and shotguns).

I would also proffer that if the City of Orlando actually takes up this suggestion (and I have my doubts that it will--the group responsible is definitely on the GOA "OMG EVERYONE MUST HAVE SO MANY WEAPONS THAT THEY SHIAT BULLETS" end of the derp)...that the City of Orlando makes it contingent on the person successfully passing a firearms training course (also free courtesy of the City of Orlando) with a focus on the safe use and storage of a shotgun. :D

/and yes, this is being posted by prior request
//actually found some stuff in the meantime that strongly points to "well regulated" being "trained to actually use a gun for its intended purpose in a safe manner and knowing how to properly and safely store ammo and gun and how to use the damned thing without blowing your pecker and/or your three-year-old kid into bits resembling something almost, but not quite, resembling ground chuck at the Publix"
 
2013-09-25 01:20:04 AM
Free shotgun? I'll take a Browning Clitoris.
 
2013-09-25 01:23:36 AM

The Smails Kid: Free shotgun? I'll take a Browning Clitoris.


I hear if you rub it the right way, it is quite responsive.
 
2013-09-25 01:42:43 AM
Well done. Two minor points, though.

Great Porn Dragon: b) Establish a national training program for use of firearms and require persons who wish to own a firearm to receive specific training including safety training and target training and to be certified by a trainer as being capable of safe use of a firearm.


The CMP was originally chartered by Congress after the Civil War. Newt's Nimrods privatized it in 1996, which was a huge mistake.

Great Porn Dragon: e) Amend the Constitution appropriately with said bugfix (easiest way to get things through).


The Militia Act can be implemented in any form Congress deems appropriate consistent with the enumerated Militia Powers of Congress (Art. I, Sect. 8, Clauses 14-17 (Clause 17 gets you neighborhood armories) without changing the Constitution in any way.
 
2013-09-25 01:47:50 AM

GodComplex: The last gunshop I went too had an over under 'home defense' shotgun with rails everywhere. And I thought how silly it was, cause how can you call it home defense without a bayonet lug? It also cost more than a pump, which baffles me.


Also, if you are defending your home with something that sprays projectiles all over the place, you might not have anything left intact to defend afterwards! Short sword and a 9mm that I learned to shoot with left handed.
 
2013-09-25 01:48:11 AM

Great Porn Dragon: many words


Wow, an actual common sense proposal, that's not something you see every day. I have to say, I agree with you 100%, but here's why it wouldn't work:

R wouldn't support it because it costs money and involves modifying the constitution.
D wouldn't support because the core gun control lobby wouldn't support it because it because it doesn't pave the way toward total civilian disarmament.
 
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