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(BBC)   According to psychologists, your precious snowflake is a precious snowflake until... 25??   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 68
    More: Interesting, University of Kent, real-life experience, social death, cognitive development, protagonists, brain development, defensive driving, parental responsibility  
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4191 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Sep 2013 at 1:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-24 12:59:32 PM  
Can we still try them as adults at 13?
 
2013-09-24 01:11:01 PM  
Neurologists have been saying this for years.
 
2013-09-24 01:11:10 PM  
That explains why I had teen angst until well into my 20s.
 
2013-09-24 01:12:06 PM  
Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.
 
2013-09-24 01:15:53 PM  
And all the way until 33 if you're jewish.
 
2013-09-24 01:16:00 PM  
Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.
 
2013-09-24 01:19:13 PM  
FTFA:  "The solution to not having useless 25 [and] 30-year-olds living at home is not sending them out of the home, it's making them do their own washing, pay their own way, pay towards the rent, pay towards the bills, to take responsibility for cleaning up their bedroom and not waiting on them hand and foot," says Beeny.


If your kid even makes it to 18 and isn't already doing all of that stuff, you've failed as a parent.  Yes, and I'm including rent and bills.  No one says that they have to pay the whole bill - but enough that they can see the immediate consequences if they fail to save the money.

/Had to spend the week outside sleeping in a tent, or the old car in front of the garage because I didn't save $15 for the weekly rent when I was 10.
//twice.
 
2013-09-24 01:19:46 PM  

mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.


Exactly.  That's why car insurance and the like is so high for people under 25 (particularly males, testosterone being the way it is) and why you need to be 25 to rent a car.
 
2013-09-24 01:20:28 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.


And Julius Caesar was well on his fifties when he senate shanked him.
 
2013-09-24 01:21:01 PM  
I would have to agree with that article.  Let's call the 12-14 range as "shiat head phase", 15-17 as "goddamned annoying teens get off my lawn", and 18-25 as "Seriously?  You're old enough to know better."
 
2013-09-24 01:21:08 PM  

Dinobot: And all the way until 33 if you're jewish.


I think you mean christian, or the president, or am I wrong about the age that is required?

as an aside has anyone ever been elected at the minimum ?
 
2013-09-24 01:22:31 PM  
And at 26 they move back in.
 
2013-09-24 01:23:53 PM  

CygnusDarius: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.

And Julius Caesar was well on his fifties when he senate shanked him.


He had been conquering the proto french for 20 years by that time though

/Surrender is a historically recent development
 
2013-09-24 01:23:59 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.


An exception that proves the rule.
 
2013-09-24 01:24:08 PM  

mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.


I thought I read more recent research showing that it wasn't actually "lack of control" that made under-25-year-olds do stupid and risky things, it's that 16-25 year olds perceive the rewards for doing risky behavior around peers to be far greater than how over 25's would rate it.

So, for example, according to the study, a teen speeding up to get through a green light while driving a car full of friends would accurately judge the likelihood of making it, but would do the risky action anyway, as they view the social rewards for doing so as far more rewarding than a person over 25 would. It was a very interesting study.

If I were to theorize about evolutionary reasons why this is so, I'd guess that it's because 16-25 year olds are establishing their place in the social pecking order, the results of which will determine what resources they get, if they get sexual partners, social alliances they make, etc. Thus, a risky behavior with a possibility of death seems worth it for young males if doing it will greatly increase their social standing. On the other hand, by the time a person hits 25, in the olden days, they would likely have already found a mate and have small children, who will be SOL if their caregivers die. Thus the appeal of risky behavior goes way, way down.
 
2013-09-24 01:26:11 PM  
I have a hard time believing that, throughout most of human history, the average age was much beyond 25.
 
2013-09-24 01:28:40 PM  
I think we should raise the voting age to 25, or maybe 30 as well.
 
2013-09-24 01:30:24 PM  

GDubDub: FTFA:  "The solution to not having useless 25 [and] 30-year-olds living at home is not sending them out of the home, it's making them do their own washing, pay their own way, pay towards the rent, pay towards the bills, to take responsibility for cleaning up their bedroom and not waiting on them hand and foot," says Beeny.


If your kid even makes it to 18 and isn't already doing all of that stuff, you've failed as a parent.  Yes, and I'm including rent and bills.  No one says that they have to pay the whole bill - but enough that they can see the immediate consequences if they fail to save the money.


It's like they never read a single farking history book. Really, keep them home??
 
2013-09-24 01:30:53 PM  

Millennium: Neurologists have been saying this for years.


Nonetheless, we are doomed to turning the movie WALL-E into some sort of animated documentary of the future.

/we're all on the "C-ship" now, Mister Dent.
 
2013-09-24 01:31:30 PM  
As a college professor I can say that I am truly amazed that some of my students are able to eat, shiat, and walk upright without assistance.
 
2013-09-24 01:32:19 PM  

hitlersbrain: I have a hard time believing that, throughout most of human history, the average age was much beyond 25.


Nope. 25 is 25. The low life expectancy in olden days was due largely to child and infant mortality, which drags down the average. If you made it out of childhood alive in the Middle Ages you had a decent chance to live to at least 65ish, though mortality was still very high compared to modern times due to all the deaths from childbirth, violence, accidents, etc, which were all far higher than in modern times.

But what I'm saying is that if the life expectancy of a place is 35, it doesn't mean you're an old man or woman at 35, it means you were lucky enough to make it to middle age without being wiped out by something like the other half of the population.
 
2013-09-24 01:33:11 PM  
I wish I had known this when I was 18.

Too fast of a start and then starting over way below where you were at 18 isn't fun.

/Taking baby steps at 31 (today's my birthday). The longer story is sadder.
 
2013-09-24 01:33:45 PM  

hitlersbrain: I have a hard time believing that, throughout most of human history, the average age was much beyond 25.


This stuff irritates me, life span has increased because more knowledge has kept people who would have died from whatever(bacterial, viral, injury, sepsis) from doing so there are lots of people that lived to be 70 -80 + in the pre-wonders of science world if they had good food and exercise and didn't get injured they survived. Medicine has not increased life span only average life span.
 
2013-09-24 01:36:02 PM  
You're a child until you manage to be financially independent of your family and maintain your own household for a year or so.

"Still require significant amounts of help" is a stupid, stupid definition of childhood.  Humans require a significant amount of help from other humans from age negative 0.75 to age six months past dead.  We're herd/hive animals, not farking tigers.
 
2013-09-24 01:36:56 PM  
I blame the scam of ever increasing higher education for this.

50 years ago a person could graduate from high school at 18 and find a job good enough for him to start supporting a family. Nowadays he'll be lucky if he gets that at 24, and if he stops school tries spending all his time working at 18 he'll be doing nothing but flipping burgers for the rest of his life.
 
2013-09-24 01:37:05 PM  

Need_MindBleach: mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.

I thought I read more recent research showing that it wasn't actually "lack of control" that made under-25-year-olds do stupid and risky things, it's that 16-25 year olds perceive the rewards for doing risky behavior around peers to be far greater than how over 25's would rate it.

So, for example, according to the study, a teen speeding up to get through a green light while driving a car full of friends would accurately judge the likelihood of making it, but would do the risky action anyway, as they view the social rewards for doing so as far more rewarding than a person over 25 would. It was a very interesting study.

If I were to theorize about evolutionary reasons why this is so, I'd guess that it's because 16-25 year olds are establishing their place in the social pecking order, the results of which will determine what resources they get, if they get sexual partners, social alliances they make, etc. Thus, a risky behavior with a possibility of death seems worth it for young males if doing it will greatly increase their social standing. On the other hand, by the time a person hits 25, in the olden days, they would likely have already found a mate and have small children, who will be SOL if their caregivers die. Thus the appeal of risky behavior goes way, way down.


If you could point me at that study, I'd love to read it.  Sounds like an interesting take.  Physiologically speaking, tho, it is very well established that the impulse control areas of the brain don't fully form until your 20's.  How that manifests is very interesting to me.
 
2013-09-24 01:38:08 PM  

macadamnut: And at 26 they move back in.


The hell they do! If they aren't out by 21, I'm disowning them...
 
2013-09-24 01:38:40 PM  
26 when Obamacare kicks in.

This is a cool rule. It means I was flying Air Force jets years before I grew up. Which, er, explains a thing or two.
 
2013-09-24 01:39:45 PM  

albatros183: CygnusDarius: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.

And Julius Caesar was well on his fifties when he senate shanked him.

He had been conquering the proto french for 20 years by that time though

/Surrender is a historically recent development


When Caesar was 18 he was kidnapped by pirates who held him for a huge ransom. When they asked him what he would do when they returned him to his parent, Caesar replied that he'd return in a ship and kill them all. They thought that was a good joke, until Caesar massacred them all.
 
2013-09-24 01:41:17 PM  

Dinobot: And all the way until 33 if you're jewish.


Or a hobbit.
 
2013-09-24 01:43:31 PM  

enemy of the state: albatros183: CygnusDarius: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.

And Julius Caesar was well on his fifties when he senate shanked him.

He had been conquering the proto french for 20 years by that time though

/Surrender is a historically recent development

When Caesar was 18 he was kidnapped by pirates who held him for a huge ransom. When they asked him what he would do when they returned him to his parent, Caesar replied that he'd return in a ship and kill them all. They thought that was a good joke, until Caesar massacred them all.


While I am uncertain of the grown-upness of that response, but seems reasonable to me, so maybe helps my point?

/25 was quite some time ago
 
2013-09-24 01:46:20 PM  

swingerofbirches: I wish I had known this when I was 18.

Too fast of a start and then starting over way below where you were at 18 isn't fun.

/Taking baby steps at 31 (today's my birthday). The longer story is sadder.


Reality gets in the way sometimes and forces you to step up your game. Damn reality.
 
2013-09-24 01:46:48 PM  

Jim_Callahan: You're a child until you manage to be financially independent of your family and maintain your own household for a year or so.

"Still require significant amounts of help" is a stupid, stupid definition of childhood.  Humans require a significant amount of help from other humans from age negative 0.75 to age six months past dead.  We're herd/hive animals, not farking tigers.


So 47% of the US populations are children, if only the courts would recognize this, less could be spent on prisons and more on teaching and helping

/Actually mostly serious
 
2013-09-24 01:46:59 PM  

mephisto_kur: Need_MindBleach: mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.

I thought I read more recent research showing that it wasn't actually "lack of control" that made under-25-year-olds do stupid and risky things, it's that 16-25 year olds perceive the rewards for doing risky behavior around peers to be far greater than how over 25's would rate it.

So, for example, according to the study, a teen speeding up to get through a green light while driving a car full of friends would accurately judge the likelihood of making it, but would do the risky action anyway, as they view the social rewards for doing so as far more rewarding than a person over 25 would. It was a very interesting study.

If I were to theorize about evolutionary reasons why this is so, I'd guess that it's because 16-25 year olds are establishing their place in the social pecking order, the results of which will determine what resources they get, if they get sexual partners, social alliances they make, etc. Thus, a risky behavior with a possibility of death seems worth it for young males if doing it will greatly increase their social standing. On the other hand, by the time a person hits 25, in the olden days, they would likely have already found a mate and have small children, who will be SOL if their caregivers die. Thus the appeal of risky behavior goes way, way down.

If you could point me at that study, I'd love to read it.  Sounds like an interesting take.  Physiologically speaking, tho, it is very well established that the impulse control areas of the brain don't fully fo ...


I wish I could find it, but I read it more than a year ago. I remember the study involved testing teens and adults playing a simulation where they would decide whether they had time to run a yellow light. The teens' reward centers of the brain lit up more when they successfully got across than the adults' did, and they were also significantly more likely to risk running the light when other teens were brought into the room to watch them.
 
2013-09-24 01:49:09 PM  

mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.


I agree on the legal definition being 18; you have to pick something and that seems like a good enough balance. The problem is that most people don't see that as a deadline for making sure that someone is (at least mostly) prepared, but rather a starting point.  You don't want to wait until someone is 18 or 25 before they are taught and held accountable for things. You need to start off young, with progressive levels of responsibility, autonomy and accountability so that they can learn those things while there's still time, before they hit the "cold hard reality" of severe consequences for something they may have completely gotten away with only two weeks before. If you're treated like a child until 25, or even 18, it becomes a lot harder to get beyond that stage (similar to the "child star phenomenon").
 
2013-09-24 01:55:26 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.

I agree on the legal definition being 18; you have to pick something and that seems like a good enough balance. The problem is that most people don't see that as a deadline for making sure that someone is (at least mostly) prepared, but rather a starting point.  You don't want to wait until someone is 18 or 25 before they are taught and held accountable for things. You need to start off young, with progressive levels of responsibility, autonomy and accountability so that they can learn those things while there's still time, before they hit the "cold hard reality" of severe consequences for something they may have completely gotten away with only two weeks before. If you're treated like a child until 25, or even 18, it becomes a lot harder to get beyond that stage (similar to the "child star phenomenon").


You do know that the snowflake phenomena is about the PARENTS not the children..
 
2013-09-24 01:55:29 PM  

swingerofbirches: I wish I had known this when I was 18.

Too fast of a start and then starting over way below where you were at 18 isn't fun.

/Taking baby steps at 31 (today's my birthday). The longer story is sadder.


Hmmm. Today is the birthday of one of my very good Oregon friends. But he's much older. Unless you are lying about your age ;-)

Happy Birthday. 31 ain't too old to start over.
 
2013-09-24 01:56:19 PM  

albatros183: Jim_Callahan: You're a child until you manage to be financially independent of your family and maintain your own household for a year or so.

"Still require significant amounts of help" is a stupid, stupid definition of childhood.  Humans require a significant amount of help from other humans from age negative 0.75 to age six months past dead.  We're herd/hive animals, not farking tigers.

So 47% of the US populations are children, if only the courts would recognize this, less could be spent on prisons and more on teaching and helping

/Actually mostly serious


My "charge them as adults at 13" comment was only slightly in jest.
 
2013-09-24 01:57:19 PM  
Fine.... no being tried as an adult until your 25.....that would also be the age at which you are forced to register for the draft and the legal drinking age and the smoking age....and no taxes until your 25 either.
 
2013-09-24 01:59:52 PM  

mediablitz: albatros183: Jim_Callahan: You're a child until you manage to be financially independent of your family and maintain your own household for a year or so.

"Still require significant amounts of help" is a stupid, stupid definition of childhood.  Humans require a significant amount of help from other humans from age negative 0.75 to age six months past dead.  We're herd/hive animals, not farking tigers.

So 47% of the US populations are children, if only the courts would recognize this, less could be spent on prisons and more on teaching and helping

/Actually mostly serious

My "charge them as adults at 13" comment was only slightly in jest.


So your saying that your histories greatest monster?

/thanks for outing yourself Adolf
 
2013-09-24 02:02:38 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.

I agree on the legal definition being 18; you have to pick something and that seems like a good enough balance. The problem is that most people don't see that as a deadline for making sure that someone is (at least mostly) prepared, but rather a starting point.  You don't want to wait until someone is 18 or 25 before they are taught and held accountable for things. You need to start off young, with progressive levels of responsibility, autonomy and accountability so that they can learn those things while there's still time, before they hit the "cold hard reality" of severe consequences for something they may have completely gotten away with only two weeks before. If you're treated like a child until 25, or even 18, it becomes a lot harder to get beyond that stage (similar to the "child star phenomenon").


This is what I always argue whenever someone says we should raise the driving age from 16 to 18, since 16 year old teens learning to drive are terrible drivers. If you raise the driving age to 18, you'll still have teens with no driving experience who are terrible drivers, but now you'll have teens who are terrible drivers living away from home and learning to drive with ZERO PARENTAL SUPERVISION. Sound like a good idea to anyone?
 
2013-09-24 02:02:55 PM  

mediablitz: swingerofbirches: I wish I had known this when I was 18.

Too fast of a start and then starting over way below where you were at 18 isn't fun.

/Taking baby steps at 31 (today's my birthday). The longer story is sadder.

Hmmm. Today is the birthday of one of my very good Oregon friends. But he's much older. Unless you are lying about your age ;-)

Happy Birthday. 31 ain't too old to start over.


That's weird. I am from Oregon originally, live in Virginia now. And, yes, I do lie about my age, but not on Fark :)
 
2013-09-24 02:08:25 PM  

Need_MindBleach: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: mephisto_kur: Getting around the "precious snowflake" part of the argument, this is something that the medical and psychological communities have known for decades.  The human brain is not fully formed until near age 25.  Specifically, under 25's lack a full ability to control impulses.  Lacking impulse control has nothing to do with intelligence and capability in other regards - which are fully formed functions by the late teens, so 18 is a reasonable legal age for adulthood.

I agree on the legal definition being 18; you have to pick something and that seems like a good enough balance. The problem is that most people don't see that as a deadline for making sure that someone is (at least mostly) prepared, but rather a starting point.  You don't want to wait until someone is 18 or 25 before they are taught and held accountable for things. You need to start off young, with progressive levels of responsibility, autonomy and accountability so that they can learn those things while there's still time, before they hit the "cold hard reality" of severe consequences for something they may have completely gotten away with only two weeks before. If you're treated like a child until 25, or even 18, it becomes a lot harder to get beyond that stage (similar to the "child star phenomenon").

This is what I always argue whenever someone says we should raise the driving age from 16 to 18, since 16 year old teens learning to drive are terrible drivers. If you raise the driving age to 18, you'll still have teens with no driving experience who are terrible drivers, but now you'll have teens who are terrible drivers living away from home and learning to drive with ZERO PARENTAL SUPERVISION. Sound like a good idea to anyone?


This sort of thing is why I have become against "graduated licensing" here in Ontario, people get their first level license and then don't drive at all for 2 or 3 years, I don't even have a drivers license and I cringe and am fearful when I see what is happening on the streets of TO(as a pedestrian and as a passenger)
 
2013-09-24 02:10:06 PM  
25? A couple of thousand years ago you'd be trying to marry off your daughters so someone could support you if you managed to live another five years.

Maybe they need to redefine "Adult".
 
2013-09-24 02:12:27 PM  

swingerofbirches: I wish I had known this when I was 18.

Too fast of a start and then starting over way below where you were at 18 isn't fun.

/Taking baby steps at 31 (today's my birthday). The longer story is sadder.


Amen to that. I definitely didn't get my shiat together until around 24-25...but due to a couple minor mistakes at 19 and 20, life is exceptionally difficult for me. Even going to school and graduating with a 3.8 GPA in a growing technical field may not help all that much.

/ban the box
 
2013-09-24 02:15:31 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Alexander managed to conquer the known world by thirty.


To be fair, his dad did give him a starting manager position.
 
2013-09-24 02:21:12 PM  

albatros183: hitlersbrain: I have a hard time believing that, throughout most of human history, the average age was much beyond 25.

This stuff irritates me, life span has increased because more knowledge has kept people who would have died from whatever(bacterial, viral, injury, sepsis) from doing so there are lots of people that lived to be 70 -80 + in the pre-wonders of science world if they had good food and exercise and didn't get injured they survived. Medicine has not increased life span only average life span.


I said average lifespan. A (very) few people might have lived that long a hundred thousand years ago but I have a hard time imagining it would be enough to matter very much biologically or socially. We're 200,000 years old. Much of that time living by the skin of our teeth. No time or resources to take care of grandpa even if he managed to stay alive that long. I would be more inclined to think that it's not the end of childhood but the beginning of old age.
 
2013-09-24 02:24:35 PM  

Millennium: Neurologists have been saying this for years.


It seems at least that car insurance companies were listening.
 
2013-09-24 02:26:12 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: 25? A couple of thousand years ago you'd be trying to marry off your daughters so someone could support you if you managed to live another five years.

Maybe they need to redefine "Adult".


Thankfully, we've grown out of that. Just because they did it back then doesn't mean it was right. Societal changes indicate we realize as a species it doesn't work that way.

Or, proof is in the pudding.
 
2013-09-24 02:37:43 PM  

Virtue: Fine.... no being tried as an adult until your 25.....that would also be the age at which you are forced to register for the draft and the legal drinking age and the smoking age....and no taxes until your 25 either.




Screw that. All of the duties and responsibilities first. Punished as an adult at 16, drive (in daylight for school and work ) at 16, full license at 18, draftable at 18, drink/smoke at 22 to 25, vote at 22 to 25, taxes..when you start getting a check, you pay taxes.
 
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