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(Bloomberg)   Doctors are preparing for the massive influx of patients once Obamacare goes into full effect. "It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"   (bloomberg.com) divider line 97
    More: Obvious, obamacare, American Academy of Family Physicians, Holy Cross, Medicine study, San Francisco General Hospital, Commonwealth Fund, George Washington University in Washington, health law  
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3851 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Sep 2013 at 9:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-09-24 09:00:16 AM  
10 votes:
Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?
2013-09-24 10:05:16 AM  
9 votes:
So millions of people who've been unable to go to the doctor in the past will now be able to.  Umm...isn't that kind of the point?

Oh, I forgot.  For-Profit essential medical care can regulate itself and will fix all its own problems!

Seriously, imagine if the fire department and police worked the same way as health care in the U.S.  If you are poor, you can only call the Charity fire department when your house burns down because the nearest fire hall wants payment up front.  If your child is kidnapped from a playground, you'd better hope the Shriners' police station has someone available to respond, because the local cops charge $4,000.00 per hour for investigations.

The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid.  Necessary medical care is a basic human right.  Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!
2013-09-24 10:00:59 AM  
7 votes:

QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.

My die-hard Republican CEO* doesn't agree.

*whose practices have us under investigation by the DOJ


Im an advanced-practice nurse, or N.P.

All the nurses I know are happy about this...np's or not.

Why? Because we make a living helping people...and Obamacare will mean fewer needless/pointless deaths from diseases that could have been treated or managed if the person had access to help.

If you are against poor people getting free medical care or free food...you are sub-human imo and should die.

Just because they are poor and someone else isnt, but is a narcissistic greedy bastard doesnt mean people should starve or die of an abcessed tooth. Thankfully, there are enough non-republicans to help balance the "me me me im an entitled selfish prick" attitude that the majority of conservatives have regarding the poor.
2013-09-24 09:40:31 AM  
6 votes:
many with chronic medical conditions that have gone untreated for years.

Hmmmm....I wonder why those medical conditions went untreated.
2013-09-24 09:29:10 AM  
6 votes:

Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!


yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!
2013-09-24 09:17:57 AM  
5 votes:

Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?


Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!
2013-09-24 10:23:51 AM  
4 votes:
"I went into medicine to help people, but not this many people!" said no good doctor, ever.
2013-09-24 09:56:59 AM  
4 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


They're already in debt for life.  Cry moar.
2013-09-24 09:42:10 AM  
4 votes:
You mean treating the people that have needed it for years but couldn't afford it? Yes there will be a surge at the beginning but after that it will drop to normal levels.
2013-09-24 10:24:15 AM  
3 votes:

Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.


inthepastlane.com

Laughable!
2013-09-24 10:22:29 AM  
3 votes:

This text is now purple: doyner: But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.

They tend to work better than systems that claim to put well-being over cash. As cash is only a proxy for a good or service of value, without "cash", you have no means of control over your well-being.

So which do you want, your well-being, or someone else's idea of your well-being?

Now consider that most people are like farkers.


Which is why we have moderators...for everyone's well being.  Obamacare is turning our system into Fark.  What we had was 4chan.
2013-09-24 09:58:35 AM  
3 votes:

nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.

Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?


My answer would be to increase the healthcare infrastructture, build more hospitals, and to create incentives both public and private which graduate more doctors into the fields needed in order to meet the demand.  But I am sure just like with solar energy I will be told how that could never work in the U.S.  Somehow "American Exceptionalism" only applies to killing people in other countries and/or blowing their stuff up.
2013-09-24 09:57:08 AM  
3 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Republicans say all the time that public school teachers should do the job because it's "a calling" and shouldn't care about the salary.
2013-09-24 09:43:14 AM  
3 votes:

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Yup. That's one of the reasons why the ACA was created...the reality was that health care reform had to happen.
2013-09-24 09:41:11 AM  
3 votes:

FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!


All those sick people are just a drain on society anyways. The true ayn randian followers of Jesus know that the strong survive and the weak shall perish because THAT'S how the god of peace and love works gotdamnit! Jesus is gonna mercy the shiat outta the sick and poor, that's what he's gonna do!
2013-09-24 09:23:42 AM  
3 votes:
Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!
2013-09-24 09:21:09 AM  
3 votes:
How dare these people go see a doctor.
2013-09-24 11:21:38 AM  
2 votes:

Mose: Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.


Of course they do. The existence of a two tier health care system within driving distance is perfect if you are able to purchase the top tier and you live in another country so  don't have to deal with the economic or moral consequences of that system.

I like that there's cheap beer just south of us in Mexico. That's not an argument in favor of the Mexican economy.
2013-09-24 10:42:13 AM  
2 votes:

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


Fine -

how about regulating the costs of medical schools or we could just keep sucking the university systems dick and subsidize MD loans - that way the college can afford to spend more on their administrative salaries and sports programs.
2013-09-24 10:18:06 AM  
2 votes:
Maybe all the doctors in the hospital emergency rooms treating sore throats can help out with the extra workload.
2013-09-24 10:10:35 AM  
2 votes:
I'm sorry, clearly being a doctor is now something people will have to be forced into.  It's obviously time to convert our prison population from breaking rocks to setting bones.

Damn you, Obama!
2013-09-24 10:04:54 AM  
2 votes:

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


OK.  And?  Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?
2013-09-24 10:02:45 AM  
2 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Know how I know you have NO idea what you are talking about?

Just...stfu.
2013-09-24 10:01:58 AM  
2 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


I totally forgot how doctors in other countries are practically slaves to the government.
2013-09-24 09:56:59 AM  
2 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes
2013-09-24 09:51:44 AM  
2 votes:
Oh no! Sick people are getting health care instead of dying in the streets! GET TO THE SHELTERS!
2013-09-24 09:47:07 AM  
2 votes:

Carn: How dare these people go see a doctor.


Yeah seriously, what farking nerve.

It's almost if some people do not want a class of low wage workers with unhealthy lifestyles, minimul education, and who die at an early enough age to where  they do not need long-term senior care; but are sick enough to lose their life savings to creditors because of medical debts.
2013-09-24 09:46:44 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?
2013-09-24 09:45:21 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Spoken like a true machine, a tool in fact.
2013-09-24 09:44:44 AM  
2 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?


No.

Apparently you don't understand how important I am. See... I'm a farking snowflake.

Any inconvenience to me and mine is completely unacceptable.
Any change being required on my part or by the incredibly flawed system I've convinced myself is perfect is criminal.

All those 'other' people can burn in hell. They aren't 'Real Americans' anyways.
2013-09-24 09:41:00 AM  
2 votes:
Isn't this a good problem to have?
2013-09-24 09:40:35 AM  
2 votes:
If the bus is full, why are all the doctors around here only open a half-day on Fridays?
2013-09-24 09:31:45 AM  
2 votes:
"It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"

Sounds like they need a double dutch bus...

/Wizzo, izzay, izzle in da zouble dizzutch...
2013-09-24 04:53:43 PM  
1 votes:

mwfark: doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?

I'll grant you pre-existing conditions, but that could have been addressed without the full implementation of the leviathan that is Obamacare. But if you want a better job with better benefits, then pursue it. Again, nobody owes you a thing.


I bet dollars to donuts that you've gotten plenty of help in your life.  You sure as fark wouldn't be here posting on the internet if you didn't enjoy the trappings of our society.

How about you grow up and learn that life isn't black and white, you aren't always right, and shiat happens?
2013-09-24 01:14:31 PM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: RedTank: Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide? Why does that distinction matter in this case? Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.

Quite simply, the distinction is important for the purposes of understanding limitation of responsibility. It is right to provide certain things to people, but it is not their right per se, and for that purpose they cannot demand more than society is capable of providing.

It is also important to distinguish this as there are very real legal connotations to "rights" that do not translate to "privileges".

It is right that I give as much as I can to help others. It is not their right to demand and take from me beyond my capacity to give.


Fair enough, but morality should define those and it does not because there is no morality in capitalism because there is no morality in money.
2013-09-24 01:12:22 PM  
1 votes:
So... student loan forgiveness for doctors and nurse practitioners once they've worked 5 or so years in the field?
2013-09-24 01:09:43 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: Alphakronik: Hey, I hear there are a bunch of doctors coming back from war that need jobs and don't complain about feisty clientele.

Maybe we could give them the jobs that the other guys don't think they can handle?

We know you couldn't handle it.


You're probably right.  Cause you know, I'm like, not a doctor and stuff.
2013-09-24 12:54:44 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: olddeegee: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.


Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide?  Why does that distinction matter in this case?  Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.
2013-09-24 12:46:28 PM  
1 votes:
Isn't this a good thing?
2013-09-24 12:45:30 PM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: RedTank: Kit Fister: I don't think we HAVE to progress forward equally, and that it's going to end up hurting us more than helping us.

No, we do for sure.  There are indirect costs associated with not progressing forward equally.  Psychological costs included.

If we can all progress equally then we either need to all take a step back or be willing to pay more.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't subscribe to such a utopian view of society.


It's not about all people having all things and services available... It's about rich people being able to beat cancer or other diseases and poor people being unable to say the same as to no fault of their own.  Just because they happen to be a weak link doesn't make them less human.  It's about seemingly miraculous medical advances certain people get because "they are better" while others trying harder and being unable to attain that same healthcare because of their personal circumstances or shortcomings.  So, for me, we all suffer in this case in order to progress equally, hardly a Utopian society in my view.  The moral superiority from such a choice is the positive that comes from the suffering, it's the thing that allows us to be OK with a decision...  Religions do this all the time... It's how people end up being happy with being dirt poor.  How about we use that here?  I apply this thought to healthcare but not to everyone owning a house, being paid the same, or having a 70" 1080i plasma TV.  Those last bits are where capitalism comes into play.
2013-09-24 12:42:35 PM  
1 votes:

doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.


There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?
2013-09-24 12:24:02 PM  
1 votes:

doyner: Kit Fister: doyner: Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.

So which country's system do you think works best?


It seems to me that the countries where universal healthcare is a reality also don't leave people in debt for pursuing higher education. British doctors don't generally graduate with a huge debt, nor do Swedish doctors...
2013-09-24 12:14:16 PM  
1 votes:

olddeegee: [i.images.cdn.fotopedia.com image 850x504]There's plenty of room on the bus. It just won't be as comfy of a ride.


What if we just tax higher earners so that we can buy more buses?
2013-09-24 12:02:41 PM  
1 votes:
Fact one : We're not giving health care away for free. We are paying for it, collectively, through taxation, because that's a good thing to pay for. Healthy people is both practical and ethical. Valuing life is both practical and ethical. And the only two arguments for not doing this are a: to instead give all that money stupidly to the military and already wealthy corporations or b: to be pointlessly greedy, short sighted and petty. So to hell with all that noise.

Fact two : Most people who need assistance need it temporarily. They aren't forever poor. Of those who are, most are handicapped and definitely do need assistance. Anyone saying, "these people need to learn to fend for themselves," are pretending this isn't the case, which is to say that they're appealing to a lie. 

Fact three : The health care system, including the insurance angle, in the USA is broken. Like the housing problem, costs have gotten so high that there is no easy fend for yourself option anymore. Even among the insured, over 80% of the population is in a situation where any serious health care problems will redefine their economic status, often leaving them in a crisis state. This is not their fault for being lazy or stupid or anything like that. The system is broken and it ensures this will happen.

Now, if you're one of the people on this thread, or anywhere, saying things like, "We can't give everyone health care FOR FREE," or, "These people need to learn to be responsible and self sufficient, LIKE ME," or any of that pure drivel, then congrats, you've just proven  that you're an ignorant, petty twatsicle. Not even joking, you have directly appealed to the most bullshiat, provably invalid arguments. Stop doing that, because more than anything, the one thing this nation/world/species needs less of is mouthy, ignorant, self centered little assholes.
2013-09-24 12:00:05 PM  
1 votes:

Capo Del Bandito: HotWingConspiracy: Yeah! Just like how you can't argue you shouldn't pay more taxes if you're rich. You're rich, dummy! Of course you can pay more.

It is bull to say you can't pay more taxes while fueling up a 20 million dollar jet to take you to your 40 million dollar yacht.

But is that all you have for being ok with taxing the rich more? "They have more, the government should be able to take it"?


No, that's not all I have.

I don't see how that's any different from their 'i earned it it's mine' attitude.

I'm merely applying the argument against the poor against the rich. You just said "Life's tough. It sucks. Learn to deal with it."

This applies to the wealthy too. Sucks that you're so rich that you pay a different tax rate. Life ain't fair, boo hoo. Learn to deal with it.
2013-09-24 11:58:50 AM  
1 votes:

RedTank: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.

How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way?  Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone.  I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?


im biting the hand that feeds me, so to speak, but... what he said

we're stronger together than alone. individuals can improve the length and quality of their own life by 'fark you I got mine' but we improve the longevity and quality of society by cooperating

am I imagining that it tends to be people who have more than enough who say 'fark you I got mine'? they wouldnt even notice a bit less
2013-09-24 11:54:44 AM  
1 votes:

kortex: Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free


As opposed to only giving the corporations freebies? We bailed out wall street, we can spare a couple billion for health care. Suck it up and learn to deal with it.
2013-09-24 11:49:25 AM  
1 votes:

KimNorth: Yet they are able to come up with $50 a week for smokes and $50 or so a week for the drink???
Not that I don't realize there are folks that are so down and out that this is their only vise to make their crappy life have meaning.
We need to teach, we need to shove economics down our kids. We need to start a movement to make it cool not to have 100 shoes and those who do losers! We need to get our priorities strait. It is bull to say you can't pay

 for health insurance while wearing $150 jeans and $200 shoes, while eating out every day!

Yeah! Just like how you can't argue you shouldn't pay more taxes if you're rich. You're rich, dummy! Of course you can pay more.

It is bull to say you can't pay  more taxes while fueling up a 20 million dollar jet to take you to your 40 million dollar yacht.
2013-09-24 11:48:34 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: RedTank: How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way? Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone. I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?

I don't expect humanity to survive. In fact, I'm surprised we've lasted this long.

Look, I vote. I push for better laws for healthcare and such. I donate to charities and work for Habitat for Humanity and other charities when I can. But there's only so much that I can do as an individual. I don't make a lot of money, and I dont' have a lot of time or bandwidth to donate to other people. At some point, those other people need to learn to fend for themselves and contribute if they can.  I can only lead my own life, I can't lead yours too.


Fair enough.  I respect your honesty and your charity.

Although, I will say even as cliche as it is, we are only as strong as the weakest link.  We cannot ignore the weak link otherwise it will only get weaker and ultimately weaken us all and possibility break

We all pay for each others healthcare one way or another.  It doesn't matter if the government forces us or not, we will all pay.  I'd rather our healthcare be a flawed system built on accountability rather than a flawed system based on exclusivity.   I make the distinction based solely on morality.
2013-09-24 11:45:22 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.

No, not everyone does think like I do. And thank god for that. But as of right now, I gotta be concerned about me and mine and focus on keeping that together.


So you understand the thinking behind poor and middle class people that couldn't access health care/insurance wanting some kind of subsidy or at least the chance to get in the game.

Maybe someday when I'm wealthy and I have nothing better to do, I'll foist myself onto the homeless or the destitute and force them to live life the way I think they should and take on the problems of others.

Is this Randian parody?
2013-09-24 11:42:16 AM  
1 votes:

Thisbymaster: You mean treating the people that have needed it for years but couldn't afford it? Yes there will be a surge at the beginning but after that it will drop to normal levels.


No, because those people that were being left out to die will continue to be in the system.  The surge will decrease but settle to a new, higher level.

shaumah: I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.


He must have been a Teabagger that bought into all the Republican lies.  ACA won't hurt the docs.

There's no issue of forcing people to be docs or nurses.  Pay enough and they will come.
2013-09-24 11:36:35 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: surrender903: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.

so essentially "fark you, i got mine"?

Basically yeah. It's tough and unpleasant, but when ti comes down to it, most people don't have the luxury or bandwidth to deal with the problems of others based on the crap in their own lives, and most people wouldn't want to be responsible for people they have no connection to.

People give to charity, they donate to the homeless, they put in time at the soup kitchen or help a million other programs and orgs set up to help people, but for most of us, that's the best we can do and after that, it's up to you to take the help and move forward.

Or, as a friend of mine always put it: We'll help you back up on your feet, but we're not going to carry you.


The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured.  Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else."  Healthcare is not mutually exclusive.  Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.
2013-09-24 11:35:39 AM  
1 votes:

Mose: Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.


Simply put, the US system is very good if you are wealthy.

Wealthier people will appreciate a system that prioritizes wealth over need.
2013-09-24 11:33:32 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.
2013-09-24 11:33:07 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: I want single-payer.


Bide your time. It's coming.
2013-09-24 11:30:52 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way?  Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone.  I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?
2013-09-24 11:26:23 AM  
1 votes:

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Yeah I have relatives that say that same thing.  They are both doctors and they complain that health care reform will mean that it will no longer be worth it to go to medical school.  Sometimes they say that in their mansion.  Sometimes it's at their summer house on the lake or maybe it's at their place in Florida.  They probably say it on their yacht but it's hard to hear them above the noise of all the other boats and sports cars they own.  I feel bad for future doctors.  They will probably have to get by on less then a million a year.
2013-09-24 11:20:44 AM  
1 votes:

Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.


You've never read real books, have you? May I recommend starting with John Rawls.
2013-09-24 11:18:30 AM  
1 votes:

QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.


Yeah, heaven forbid any of us healthy, relatively wealthy people should be inconvenienced by a crush of people in need of health care that has been beyond reach.

Sounds absolutely horrible too, with clinics having to hire more people to deal with all that extra business. This is going to screw everything up.
2013-09-24 10:55:32 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: They're unionized, of course they do. Not exactly a growth industry though, I really doubt many will stop to consider sanitation over medical school.

For about $75k/year? And never having to look at or deal with anyone's diseased crap? I would.


Something tells me you don't really have a passion for medicine.

And if you think you won't be looking at diseased crap as a sanitation worker, I've got some terrible news for you.
2013-09-24 10:54:33 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


I have an issue with your number 2.  Most doctors (even up here in our Great Frozen Socialist Paradise) already spend as little time as necessary with their patients because they can bill more patients that way.   So don't expect a big change in the way most doctors operate.
2013-09-24 10:54:01 AM  
1 votes:

TNel: You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.


I just pulled this quote online. There were options for under $90 a month but with a large deductible. In this case I can get a great PPO for under $150 and for $28 more I could get dental and vision.


dl.dropboxusercontent.com
2013-09-24 10:54:00 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: doyner: Wow. Nice dodge. I guess if nothing can be perfect we shouldn't fix anything.

Uhm, I didn't say that. But so far we've put a bandaid on a sawn-off limb. You want to fix this? it's going to take a farkload more work than what we've done.


I'd rather get a bandaid on a sawn-off limb than bleed to death while someone steals my wallet.

I don't like it.  I want single-payer.
2013-09-24 10:45:09 AM  
1 votes:

This text is now purple: Highroller48: Oh, I forgot. For-Profit essential medical care can regulate itself and will fix all its own problems!

Seriously, imagine if the fire department and police worked the same way as health care in the U.S.

On the short term, it sort of does work like the police.

Consider Houston -- Houston had a police force arguable adequate for its population and number of criminals. It was at capacity, but could handle its load. Then Katrina happens. Suddenly, Houston absorbs an extra 100,000 of New Orleans' criminals. The police can still only work at 100% capacity, so all of those extra crimes result in reduced police coverage across the board. Net crime increases.


A 100,000 criminals huh? Interesting. You're basing that on what exactly?
2013-09-24 10:44:23 AM  
1 votes:

lovefirststool: Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.


So you went into it solely for the money? Are you a supporter of this little gem of a policy?  http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage _ x.htm
2013-09-24 10:43:58 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.


Plus in other countries all the doctors hung it up and became garbage men.
2013-09-24 10:42:57 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: Doesnt matter..nice strawman though.

Why should a highly educated medical professional..who has people's very lives in their hands...accept $15/hr?

Even an LPN makes life and death decisions on a daily basis.

I dunno about you...but id kind of prefer those people making those decisions about me or my family be paid fairly for their level of expertise.

I agree. But, you don't have to be a dick.


But at least I...unlike you...work in the medical field...and actually know wtf im talking about when it comes to the real-world impact "obamacare" will have.

I never claimed to not be a dick. I claimed i know more about such things than you...and i do.

You..on the other hand..are possibly less of a dick...but are also much less informed of the truth than I, but yet you keep pretending like u know wtf you're talking about while you clearly do not.
2013-09-24 10:40:37 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.


Wow.  Nice dodge.  I guess if nothing can be perfect we shouldn't fix anything.
2013-09-24 10:34:15 AM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: doyner: Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

I guess we should allow pre-existing conditions to force people into poverty then.  Just human nature, huh?

Didn't say that. But, if people are going to go through the trouble to become doctors and nurses, then they need an incentive to do so. Good pay, grants towards medical school/nursing school, and tax breaks for hospitals to incentiveise them to hire more people.  Then you keep up with demand. As it stands, no one wants to deal with the sick and the dying and handling blue waffles all day for shiat pay. I'd rather be a garbage collector, then at least the smell is somewhat contained and I don't have to handle some other person's diseased junk.

Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.


So which country's system do you think works best?
2013-09-24 10:27:52 AM  
1 votes:

TNel: Oh so you can have more of the pie.


Can't make mid six-figures if every kid coming out of high school also wants to be an anesthesiologist.
2013-09-24 10:26:18 AM  
1 votes:
lovefirststool:

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.

1.bp.blogspot.com

Seriously stop, why would you do that?  If someone wants to help people and the country needs them why the hell would you do that?  Oh so you can have more of the pie.
2013-09-24 10:23:21 AM  
1 votes:

gretzkyscores: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!


You haven't studied this out yet, have you?
2013-09-24 10:22:21 AM  
1 votes:
How to deal with a full bus:

www.hindustantimes.com
2013-09-24 10:20:32 AM  
1 votes:
Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

I guess we should allow pre-existing conditions to force people into poverty then.  Just human nature, huh?
2013-09-24 10:16:56 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: ManRay: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?

Thank you for boiling this down to its essence.  The Obamacare "debate" is essentialy money vs. humanity.  Good to know where people stand on these things.

Kit Fister: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.

True.  But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.  Sure, I'tll be rough for a while, but thatnk goodness we're finally doing something about it.


No matter what, it's all about, and will always be about, personal gain. No one does anything out of the good of their hearts. Just human nature. I'll gladly be a doctor, but I better make decent money and have decent compensation for having to be up to my ass in sick people and disgusting crap day in and day out.
2013-09-24 10:15:24 AM  
1 votes:
"It's going to be a slow ramp up," Rosenbaum said in a telephone interview. "It's not like seven million people will get insurance at once. They're not going to all come racing in the door.

Want to bet on this?
2013-09-24 10:15:08 AM  
1 votes:

ManRay: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?


Thank you for boiling this down to its essence.  The Obamacare "debate" is essentialy money vs. humanity.  Good to know where people stand on these things.

Kit Fister: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.


True.  But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.  Sure, I'tll be rough for a while, but thatnk goodness we're finally doing something about it.
2013-09-24 10:11:37 AM  
1 votes:

Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....


Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.
2013-09-24 10:11:32 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?


In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.
2013-09-24 10:11:31 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?


The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?
2013-09-24 10:07:28 AM  
1 votes:

Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....


There are very few "doctors" on front-line medicine anymore. It's high-risk and low-reward, so none of the new doctors want any part of it.
2013-09-24 10:03:04 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?


No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.
2013-09-24 10:02:48 AM  
1 votes:

QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes


Not really, there's nothing to write off as an expense if you didn't expend anything.  They just don't claim it as income, there's no write off. 

Private pay prices are so high because its the only spot they can increase the margin to cover costs for the uninsured they are required to treat.  Insuring everyone, removes the need to hike up private pay prices, putting them more inline with medicare and their negotiated private insurance rates.
2013-09-24 09:54:10 AM  
1 votes:

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.
2013-09-24 09:53:37 AM  
1 votes:

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


Or get into the claims processing bidness.
2013-09-24 09:52:54 AM  
1 votes:
Who the fark complains about too much business?
2013-09-24 09:48:53 AM  
1 votes:
Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.
2013-09-24 09:46:14 AM  
1 votes:
I thought were clogging up the emergency rooms already. So they were already on the bus, we just ignored them.
2013-09-24 09:43:37 AM  
1 votes:
Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....
2013-09-24 09:41:29 AM  
1 votes:

King Something: Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?

Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!


Behold the righteous glory and goodness!

Share with me in the Supply-side prayer:

'Our father, who art in high demand
hallowed be thy profit margins...'
2013-09-24 09:41:15 AM  
1 votes:
I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.
2013-09-24 09:40:20 AM  
1 votes:
So doctors are expecting Obamacare will cause many more people to get sick? Thanks, Obama
2013-09-24 09:39:25 AM  
1 votes:
Riding in the bus to the hospital and the place was pretty packed
Couldn't find a seat so I had to stand with the sickies in the back
It was smelling like a 'mergency room, there was blood all over the floor
We're already packed in like sardines and we're stopping to pick up more.....

/apologies to Weird Al
2013-09-24 09:38:55 AM  
1 votes:

FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!


Emergency room? What kind of pussy uses an emergency room? The poors can just rub some dirt on it and pray for healing like True American Patriots always did before Traitorbama!
2013-09-24 09:38:53 AM  
1 votes:
If you're passing out condoms and superglue labeled as lube, I'm all for it.
2013-09-24 09:38:45 AM  
1 votes:
Y2K was supposed to be gnarly too.
2013-09-24 08:54:29 AM  
1 votes:
Exactly. What the government should say in a situation like that is, "Sorry, farkers, guess you losers should have bought a bus ticket a long time ago, huh? Nyah."
 
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