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(Bloomberg)   Doctors are preparing for the massive influx of patients once Obamacare goes into full effect. "It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"   (bloomberg.com) divider line 319
    More: Obvious, obamacare, American Academy of Family Physicians, Holy Cross, Medicine study, San Francisco General Hospital, Commonwealth Fund, George Washington University in Washington, health law  
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3849 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Sep 2013 at 9:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



319 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-24 08:54:29 AM  
Exactly. What the government should say in a situation like that is, "Sorry, farkers, guess you losers should have bought a bus ticket a long time ago, huh? Nyah."
 
2013-09-24 08:59:38 AM  
I needs me some free baindaids and oxyconton.!!
Fo mah babbydaddy.
 
2013-09-24 09:00:16 AM  
Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?
 
2013-09-24 09:17:57 AM  

Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?


Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!
 
2013-09-24 09:21:09 AM  
How dare these people go see a doctor.
 
2013-09-24 09:23:42 AM  
Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!
 
2013-09-24 09:29:10 AM  

Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!


yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!
 
2013-09-24 09:31:45 AM  
"It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"

Sounds like they need a double dutch bus...

/Wizzo, izzay, izzle in da zouble dizzutch...
 
2013-09-24 09:38:45 AM  
Y2K was supposed to be gnarly too.
 
2013-09-24 09:38:53 AM  
If you're passing out condoms and superglue labeled as lube, I'm all for it.
 
2013-09-24 09:38:55 AM  

FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!


Emergency room? What kind of pussy uses an emergency room? The poors can just rub some dirt on it and pray for healing like True American Patriots always did before Traitorbama!
 
2013-09-24 09:39:25 AM  
Riding in the bus to the hospital and the place was pretty packed
Couldn't find a seat so I had to stand with the sickies in the back
It was smelling like a 'mergency room, there was blood all over the floor
We're already packed in like sardines and we're stopping to pick up more.....

/apologies to Weird Al
 
2013-09-24 09:40:19 AM  

UberDave: "It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"

Sounds like they need a double dutch bus...

/Wizzo, izzay, izzle in da zouble dizzutch...


i161.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-24 09:40:20 AM  
So doctors are expecting Obamacare will cause many more people to get sick? Thanks, Obama
 
2013-09-24 09:40:31 AM  
many with chronic medical conditions that have gone untreated for years.

Hmmmm....I wonder why those medical conditions went untreated.
 
2013-09-24 09:40:35 AM  
If the bus is full, why are all the doctors around here only open a half-day on Fridays?
 
2013-09-24 09:41:00 AM  
Isn't this a good problem to have?
 
2013-09-24 09:41:06 AM  
Pre-existing humans aren't covered.
PSYCH!
 
2013-09-24 09:41:11 AM  

FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!


All those sick people are just a drain on society anyways. The true ayn randian followers of Jesus know that the strong survive and the weak shall perish because THAT'S how the god of peace and love works gotdamnit! Jesus is gonna mercy the shiat outta the sick and poor, that's what he's gonna do!
 
2013-09-24 09:41:15 AM  
I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.
 
2013-09-24 09:41:29 AM  

King Something: Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?

Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!


Behold the righteous glory and goodness!

Share with me in the Supply-side prayer:

'Our father, who art in high demand
hallowed be thy profit margins...'
 
2013-09-24 09:42:10 AM  
You mean treating the people that have needed it for years but couldn't afford it? Yes there will be a surge at the beginning but after that it will drop to normal levels.
 
2013-09-24 09:43:14 AM  

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Yup. That's one of the reasons why the ACA was created...the reality was that health care reform had to happen.
 
2013-09-24 09:43:37 AM  
Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....
 
2013-09-24 09:44:18 AM  

Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?


This.
 
2013-09-24 09:44:44 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?


No.

Apparently you don't understand how important I am. See... I'm a farking snowflake.

Any inconvenience to me and mine is completely unacceptable.
Any change being required on my part or by the incredibly flawed system I've convinced myself is perfect is criminal.

All those 'other' people can burn in hell. They aren't 'Real Americans' anyways.
 
2013-09-24 09:45:21 AM  

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Spoken like a true machine, a tool in fact.
 
2013-09-24 09:46:14 AM  
I thought were clogging up the emergency rooms already. So they were already on the bus, we just ignored them.
 
2013-09-24 09:46:44 AM  

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.


Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?
 
2013-09-24 09:47:07 AM  

Carn: How dare these people go see a doctor.


Yeah seriously, what farking nerve.

It's almost if some people do not want a class of low wage workers with unhealthy lifestyles, minimul education, and who die at an early enough age to where  they do not need long-term senior care; but are sick enough to lose their life savings to creditors because of medical debts.
 
2013-09-24 09:48:08 AM  
I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.
 
2013-09-24 09:48:53 AM  
http://youtu.be/qSjGouBmo0M

Why Are American Health Care Costs So High?
 
2013-09-24 09:48:53 AM  
Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.
 
2013-09-24 09:49:25 AM  

Wendy's Chili: UberDave: "It's like we're handing out bus tickets and the bus is already full"

Sounds like they need a double dutch bus...

/Wizzo, izzay, izzle in da zouble dizzutch...

[i161.photobucket.com image 480x320]


Someone needs to call Finland.  There is a bus advertisment writer who is having a stroke.  The poor man needs help.
 
2013-09-24 09:50:48 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.


THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.

My die-hard Republican CEO* doesn't agree.

*whose practices have us under investigation by the DOJ
 
2013-09-24 09:51:15 AM  

heavymetal: Carn: How dare these people go see a doctor.

Yeah seriously, what farking nerve.

It's almost if some people do not want a class of low wage workers with unhealthy lifestyles, minimul education, and who die at an early enough age to where  they do not need long-term senior care; but are sick enough to lose their life savings to creditors because of medical debts.


But how did they get to be in the class of low wage workers with unhealthy lifestyles and minimal education?  I would say many of them made poor choices.

/or Ronald Regan farked them over.
 
2013-09-24 09:51:44 AM  
Oh no! Sick people are getting health care instead of dying in the streets! GET TO THE SHELTERS!
 
2013-09-24 09:52:38 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.


Apparently, if you call it "The Affordable Healthcare Act" it doubles the number of people who like it.
/heard it on the radio yesterday
 
2013-09-24 09:52:54 AM  
Who the fark complains about too much business?
 
2013-09-24 09:53:37 AM  

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


Or get into the claims processing bidness.
 
2013-09-24 09:54:10 AM  

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.
 
2013-09-24 09:56:31 AM  

Pocket Ninja: Exactly. What the government should say in a situation like that is, "Sorry, farkers, guess you losers should have bought a bus ticket a long time ago, huh? Nyah."


Christ, this.
 
2013-09-24 09:56:59 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


They're already in debt for life.  Cry moar.
 
2013-09-24 09:56:59 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes
 
2013-09-24 09:57:06 AM  
Isn't this a good problem to have?

No.

Apparently you don't understand how important I am. See... I'm a farking snowflake.

Any inconvenience to me and mine is completely unacceptable.
Any change being required on my part or by the incredibly flawed system I've convinced myself is perfect is criminal.

All those 'other' people can burn in hell. They aren't 'Real Americans' anyways.



...as long as I get it for free! That's all that matters
 
2013-09-24 09:57:08 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Republicans say all the time that public school teachers should do the job because it's "a calling" and shouldn't care about the salary.
 
2013-09-24 09:58:35 AM  

nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.

Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?


My answer would be to increase the healthcare infrastructture, build more hospitals, and to create incentives both public and private which graduate more doctors into the fields needed in order to meet the demand.  But I am sure just like with solar energy I will be told how that could never work in the U.S.  Somehow "American Exceptionalism" only applies to killing people in other countries and/or blowing their stuff up.
 
2013-09-24 09:59:16 AM  

QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes


Wasn't there something about saline solution costing $500 a bag?
 
2013-09-24 10:00:59 AM  

QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.

My die-hard Republican CEO* doesn't agree.

*whose practices have us under investigation by the DOJ


Im an advanced-practice nurse, or N.P.

All the nurses I know are happy about this...np's or not.

Why? Because we make a living helping people...and Obamacare will mean fewer needless/pointless deaths from diseases that could have been treated or managed if the person had access to help.

If you are against poor people getting free medical care or free food...you are sub-human imo and should die.

Just because they are poor and someone else isnt, but is a narcissistic greedy bastard doesnt mean people should starve or die of an abcessed tooth. Thankfully, there are enough non-republicans to help balance the "me me me im an entitled selfish prick" attitude that the majority of conservatives have regarding the poor.
 
2013-09-24 10:01:18 AM  

Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?


I haven't heard anyone telling us that capital gains need to be cut to zero lately, so that's something, anyway.
 
2013-09-24 10:01:58 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


I totally forgot how doctors in other countries are practically slaves to the government.
 
2013-09-24 10:02:13 AM  

Weaver95: QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes

Wasn't there something about saline solution costing $500 a bag?


Well, in all fairness, the saline solution was harvested from the sweet tears of the pre-exisitng condition uninsured.
 
2013-09-24 10:02:45 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Know how I know you have NO idea what you are talking about?

Just...stfu.
 
2013-09-24 10:02:48 AM  

QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes


Not really, there's nothing to write off as an expense if you didn't expend anything.  They just don't claim it as income, there's no write off. 

Private pay prices are so high because its the only spot they can increase the margin to cover costs for the uninsured they are required to treat.  Insuring everyone, removes the need to hike up private pay prices, putting them more inline with medicare and their negotiated private insurance rates.
 
2013-09-24 10:03:04 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?


No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.
 
2013-09-24 10:03:41 AM  
One thing I haven't checked on is what the evangelicals are preaching about obamacare. Anyone know if Joel Osteen has said anything on point about this?
 
2013-09-24 10:04:54 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


OK.  And?  Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?
 
2013-09-24 10:05:16 AM  
So millions of people who've been unable to go to the doctor in the past will now be able to.  Umm...isn't that kind of the point?

Oh, I forgot.  For-Profit essential medical care can regulate itself and will fix all its own problems!

Seriously, imagine if the fire department and police worked the same way as health care in the U.S.  If you are poor, you can only call the Charity fire department when your house burns down because the nearest fire hall wants payment up front.  If your child is kidnapped from a playground, you'd better hope the Shriners' police station has someone available to respond, because the local cops charge $4,000.00 per hour for investigations.

The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid.  Necessary medical care is a basic human right.  Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!
 
2013-09-24 10:06:31 AM  

Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!


Actually, the point of the article is that we quite literally are running out of healthcare.

FTA: "The increase in newly insured patients arrives at a time when the nation has 15,230 fewer primary-care doctors than it needs, according to an Aug. 28 assessment by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And emergency rooms report being strained with visits that have risen at twice the rate of population growth."

I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.
 
2013-09-24 10:06:37 AM  

Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!


media.screened.com

Does not approve
 
2013-09-24 10:07:21 AM  

Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....




Government wanted to control costs and was afraid of a "glut of doctors" so.......

Paying Hospitals to Train Fewer Doctors-1997

" The federal government, which pays farmers for crops they dont grow, now proposes to pay hospitals for doctors they dont train. In a strategy applauded by medical economists, the Medicare program has begun a pilot project aimed at reducing the number of new doctors training in teaching hospitals, on the theory that producing fewer specialists means generating fewer unnecessary medical tests, treatments and hospitalizations. Under the program, New York teaching hospitals, which train more doctors than any other city (15 percent of new residents) will earn $400 million in training subsidies during the next six years so long as they produce 2,000 fewer doctors, for a decrease of 20 percent in training rosters."

Obamacare a supposed "healthcare" law makes no provision to actually provide health care. It makes no provisions for opening more clinics or training and employing more health care workers. Obamacare is not about providing health care, it is about expanding government control of health care.
 
2013-09-24 10:07:28 AM  

Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....


There are very few "doctors" on front-line medicine anymore. It's high-risk and low-reward, so none of the new doctors want any part of it.
 
2013-09-24 10:07:32 AM  

jfivealive: QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes

Not really, there's nothing to write off as an expense if you didn't expend anything.  They just don't claim it as income, there's no write off. 

Private pay prices are so high because its the only spot they can increase the margin to cover costs for the uninsured they are required to treat.  Insuring everyone, removes the need to hike up private pay prices, putting them more inline with medicare and their negotiated private insurance rates.


Hahaha...stfu with your making sense and all.
 
2013-09-24 10:10:35 AM  
I'm sorry, clearly being a doctor is now something people will have to be forced into.  It's obviously time to convert our prison population from breaking rocks to setting bones.

Damn you, Obama!
 
2013-09-24 10:11:31 AM  

doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?


The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?
 
2013-09-24 10:11:32 AM  

doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?


In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.
 
2013-09-24 10:11:37 AM  

Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....


Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.
 
2013-09-24 10:11:53 AM  

shaumah: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

Actually, the point of the article is that we quite literally are running out of healthcare.

FTA: "The increase in newly insured patients arrives at a time when the nation has 15,230 fewer primary-care doctors than it needs, according to an Aug. 28 assessment by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And emergency rooms report being strained with visits that have risen at twice the rate of population growth."

I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.


Why...why do.ppl say shiat like this.

Theres no shortage of doctors or nurses.

In my town alone...in ONE hospital (not where i work) there are 2700 nurses.

This is just typical conservative drivel. Even if it did, there are these neat places called schools were people can become doctors and nurses.
 
2013-09-24 10:12:02 AM  
There will always be doctors available just like in other countries. What will happen is all the #1 best doctors in the entire world who come work in the U.S. because they get top dollar will simply move to another that doesn't have socialized medicine.  For developed nations that leaves, hrrmm, Belarus I guess. So start planning your move now before housing costs skyrocket once all the 1%'ers move there.
 
2013-09-24 10:12:10 AM  

QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.

/$15 for a fingerstick glucose, at least at this hospital
//$200 for tylenol is not unheard of
///slashies in threes


there's my queen mama bee! :D
 
2013-09-24 10:12:28 AM  

QueenMamaBee: grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.

Do you know what hospitals and doctors actually CHARGE? What they get reimbursed, whether by private insurance or medicare is actually pretty fair. Then the provider gets to write off the rest and claim it on their taxes.


First, unless you've got some soooper-doooper contracting skills you're not getting 2-4x Medicare from insurance payers. You may get 115-125% of Medicare with a good contract - the only way you're getting significantly more than that is if you have a high fee schedule, see the patient out of network, *and* their plan design pays a significant percentage out of network. This is not a common scenario, at least not common enough that many docs live off of it. Such a scheme also is attracting legal action from third party payers and the occasional AG.

Second, the health care provider *does not* get to write off the contractual adjustment on their taxes. If they did, the way healthcare is priced would be used in nearly every industry to offset profit.
 
2013-09-24 10:13:13 AM  

nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.

Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?


Tax cuts for the wealthy.  Duh.
 
2013-09-24 10:13:13 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: shaumah: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

Actually, the point of the article is that we quite literally are running out of healthcare.

FTA: "The increase in newly insured patients arrives at a time when the nation has 15,230 fewer primary-care doctors than it needs, according to an Aug. 28 assessment by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And emergency rooms report being strained with visits that have risen at twice the rate of population growth."

I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.

Why...why do.ppl say shiat like this.

Theres no shortage of doctors or nurses.

In my town alone...in ONE hospital (not where i work) there are 2700 nurses.

This is just typical conservative drivel. Even if it did, there are these neat places called schools were people can become doctors and nurses.


And yet, in my town, the hospital is understaffed and all the private practices are turning away patients because they cannot handle more.

So, yeah, total conservative drivel.
 
2013-09-24 10:13:16 AM  

randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.


This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!
 
2013-09-24 10:13:18 AM  

Highroller48: Oh, I forgot. For-Profit essential medical care can regulate itself and will fix all its own problems!

Seriously, imagine if the fire department and police worked the same way as health care in the U.S.


On the short term, it sort of does work like the police.

Consider Houston -- Houston had a police force arguable adequate for its population and number of criminals. It was at capacity, but could handle its load. Then Katrina happens. Suddenly, Houston absorbs an extra 100,000 of New Orleans' criminals. The police can still only work at 100% capacity, so all of those extra crimes result in reduced police coverage across the board. Net crime increases.

This is comparable to suddenly dropping more patients onto a primary medical care system which is already nearly at capacity. Net patient care decreases.
 
2013-09-24 10:13:44 AM  
Listening to AM radio this morning they were wargbling about climate change.  Anyway they kept dropping "Redistribution of Wealth", like if they can lead it back to that they won their argument.  I felt they were begging the question and would  like to remind them of Jesus's words "DIAF"Matthew 25:41 (Txt msg bible)
 
2013-09-24 10:15:08 AM  

ManRay: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?


Thank you for boiling this down to its essence.  The Obamacare "debate" is essentialy money vs. humanity.  Good to know where people stand on these things.

Kit Fister: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.


True.  But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.  Sure, I'tll be rough for a while, but thatnk goodness we're finally doing something about it.
 
2013-09-24 10:15:24 AM  
"It's going to be a slow ramp up," Rosenbaum said in a telephone interview. "It's not like seven million people will get insurance at once. They're not going to all come racing in the door.

Want to bet on this?
 
2013-09-24 10:16:56 AM  

doyner: ManRay: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?

Thank you for boiling this down to its essence.  The Obamacare "debate" is essentialy money vs. humanity.  Good to know where people stand on these things.

Kit Fister: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

In theory? Yes. But, considering the crushing costs of Med School, it's going to be a while before supply catches up with demand.

True.  But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.  Sure, I'tll be rough for a while, but thatnk goodness we're finally doing something about it.


No matter what, it's all about, and will always be about, personal gain. No one does anything out of the good of their hearts. Just human nature. I'll gladly be a doctor, but I better make decent money and have decent compensation for having to be up to my ass in sick people and disgusting crap day in and day out.
 
2013-09-24 10:17:12 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.

My die-hard Republican CEO* doesn't agree.

*whose practices have us under investigation by the DOJ

Im an advanced-practice nurse, or N.P.

All the nurses I know are happy about this...np's or not.

Why? Because we make a living helping people...and Obamacare will mean fewer needless/pointless deaths from diseases that could have been treated or managed if the person had access to help.

If you are against poor people getting free medical care or free food...you are sub-human imo and should die.

Just because they are poor and someone else isnt, but is a narcissistic greedy bastard doesnt mean people should starve or die of an abcessed tooth. Thankfully, there are enough non-republicans to help balance the "me me me im an entitled selfish prick" attitude that the majority of conservatives have regarding the poor.


Direct quote from my Dear Leader:
Jackson said the Affordable Care Act, or "Obamacare," which he said he had nicknamed "the Unaffordable Care Act," had greatly impacted the ability of hospitals, including KDMC, to earn a profit, and that he expected that to continue.

He said the ACAhad taken away billions of dollars from mostly hospitals to be set aside to pay for health insurance for the estimated 30 million Americans who are currently uninsured, with the promise hospitals will be "made whole" once health care reform is fully implemented because those without insurance will have some form of coverage.

"We don't believe that. No one in health care believes that,"Jackson said.
 
2013-09-24 10:17:33 AM  
Isn't medical accreditation restricted in order to keep the numbers of doctors artificially low and their wages higher? Seems to me there's a fix built into the system somewhere...
 
2013-09-24 10:18:06 AM  
Maybe all the doctors in the hospital emergency rooms treating sore throats can help out with the extra workload.
 
2013-09-24 10:18:14 AM  

slykens1: Second, the health care provider *does not* get to write off the contractual adjustment on their taxes. If they did, the way healthcare is priced would be used in nearly every industry to offset profit.


Its pretty simple.  There just isn't anything to write off.  If i charge $50 for a service and only get paid $20, my gross and net income is $20.  My  gross income is not $50 with a $30 expense for a net income of $20.  You may say this is the exact same thing, but to Medicare and Medicaid it is not, and will get you in trouble since medicare and medicaid rates are established based on costs.
 
2013-09-24 10:18:18 AM  

doyner: But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.


They tend to work better than systems that claim to put well-being over cash. As cash is only a proxy for a good or service of value, without "cash", you have no means of control over your well-being.

So which do you want, your well-being, or someone else's idea of your well-being?

Now consider that most people are like farkers.
 
2013-09-24 10:18:26 AM  

QueenMamaBee: [irrelevant text]


You should text me sometime. I miss hearing from you

/end threadjack.
 
2013-09-24 10:18:28 AM  

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: shaumah: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

Actually, the point of the article is that we quite literally are running out of healthcare.

FTA: "The increase in newly insured patients arrives at a time when the nation has 15,230 fewer primary-care doctors than it needs, according to an Aug. 28 assessment by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And emergency rooms report being strained with visits that have risen at twice the rate of population growth."

I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.

Why...why do.ppl say shiat like this.

Theres no shortage of doctors or nurses.

In my town alone...in ONE hospital (not where i work) there are 2700 nurses.

This is just typical conservative drivel. Even if it did, there are these neat places called schools were people can become doctors and nurses.

And yet, in my town, the hospital is understaffed and all the private practices are turning away patients because they cannot handle more.

So, yeah, total conservative drivel.


Pay staff better = more nurses and doctors will work there.

Bet its one of those places that tries to pay a new LPN $12.50 an hour...and wonders why they can get enough staff.
 
2013-09-24 10:19:08 AM  

This text is now purple: doyner: But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.

They tend to work better than systems that claim to put well-being over cash. As cash is only a proxy for a good or service of value, without "cash", you have no means of control over your well-being.

So which do you want, your well-being, or someone else's idea of your well-being?

Now consider that most people are like farkers.


This.
 
2013-09-24 10:20:00 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Pay staff better = more nurses and doctors will work there.

Bet its one of those places that tries to pay a new LPN $12.50 an hour...and wonders why they can get enough staff.


Nurses there start, far as I know, around $20/hr.
 
2013-09-24 10:20:32 AM  
Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

I guess we should allow pre-existing conditions to force people into poverty then.  Just human nature, huh?
 
2013-09-24 10:20:56 AM  

QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.

My die-hard Republican CEO* doesn't agree.

*whose practices have us under investigation by the DOJ

Im an advanced-practice nurse, or N.P.

All the nurses I know are happy about this...np's or not.

Why? Because we make a living helping people...and Obamacare will mean fewer needless/pointless deaths from diseases that could have been treated or managed if the person had access to help.

If you are against poor people getting free medical care or free food...you are sub-human imo and should die.

Just because they are poor and someone else isnt, but is a narcissistic greedy bastard doesnt mean people should starve or die of an abcessed tooth. Thankfully, there are enough non-republicans to help balance the "me me me im an entitled selfish prick" attitude that the majority of conservatives have regarding the poor.

Direct quote from my Dear Leader:
Jackson said the Affordable Care Act, or "Obamacare," which he said he had nicknamed "the Unaffordable Care Act," had greatly impacted the ability of hospitals, including KDMC, to earn a profit, and that he expected that to continue.

He said the ACAhad taken away billions of dollars from mostly hospitals to be set aside to pay for health insurance for the estimated 30 million Americans who are currently uninsured, with the promise hospitals will be "made whole" once health care reform is fully implemented because those without insurance will have some form of coverage.

"We don't believe that. No one in health care believes that,"Jackson said.


Im in healthcare. I believe it..and so do the VAST majority of my APN colleagues.
 
2013-09-24 10:21:46 AM  

Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!


I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.
 
2013-09-24 10:22:14 AM  

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: Pay staff better = more nurses and doctors will work there.

Bet its one of those places that tries to pay a new LPN $12.50 an hour...and wonders why they can get enough staff.

Nurses there start, far as I know, around $20/hr.


See also:

http://www.nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/ThePracticeofProfessi on alNursing/workforce/NursingShortage

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/media-relations/fact-sheets/nursing-shortag e
 
2013-09-24 10:22:21 AM  
How to deal with a full bus:

www.hindustantimes.com
 
2013-09-24 10:22:29 AM  

This text is now purple: doyner: But at least now everyone will see the root of the problem: that our society has accepted a system that puts cash over well-being.

They tend to work better than systems that claim to put well-being over cash. As cash is only a proxy for a good or service of value, without "cash", you have no means of control over your well-being.

So which do you want, your well-being, or someone else's idea of your well-being?

Now consider that most people are like farkers.


Which is why we have moderators...for everyone's well being.  Obamacare is turning our system into Fark.  What we had was 4chan.
 
2013-09-24 10:23:17 AM  
 It not really funny funny... but it is humorous to find that some folks in my state are thrilled to find out they can get an Obamacare policy for $150 a month.     But when I look up for them the cost of a policy last year through thier 'Blues'.   It ends up being cheaper.

They are going to pay more, and have no clue.

They may get max's eliminated,  but they also sacrifice (or have less) choices and options.
(in my state the Blues were the Insurer of last resort so they were required for decades to cover preexisting)

Now you are finding out there are hidden costs ??    Hahahahahahaha...
 
2013-09-24 10:23:21 AM  

gretzkyscores: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!


You haven't studied this out yet, have you?
 
2013-09-24 10:23:51 AM  
"I went into medicine to help people, but not this many people!" said no good doctor, ever.
 
2013-09-24 10:24:15 AM  

Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.


inthepastlane.com

Laughable!
 
2013-09-24 10:25:34 AM  

doyner: Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

I guess we should allow pre-existing conditions to force people into poverty then.  Just human nature, huh?


Didn't say that. But, if people are going to go through the trouble to become doctors and nurses, then they need an incentive to do so. Good pay, grants towards medical school/nursing school, and tax breaks for hospitals to incentiveise them to hire more people.  Then you keep up with demand. As it stands, no one wants to deal with the sick and the dying and handling blue waffles all day for shiat pay. I'd rather be a garbage collector, then at least the smell is somewhat contained and I don't have to handle some other person's diseased junk.

Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.
 
2013-09-24 10:26:18 AM  
lovefirststool:

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.

1.bp.blogspot.com

Seriously stop, why would you do that?  If someone wants to help people and the country needs them why the hell would you do that?  Oh so you can have more of the pie.
 
2013-09-24 10:26:58 AM  

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: Pay staff better = more nurses and doctors will work there.

Bet its one of those places that tries to pay a new LPN $12.50 an hour...and wonders why they can get enough staff.

Nurses there start, far as I know, around $20/hr.


That's sub-par for an RN.

So..its exactly what i thought: the wont pay staff what they are worth, and are surprised when nobody wants to work there...forcing them to limit their patient load.

They did it to themselves.

For the record..to be competitive, lpns should be starting at about $17-20 and RNs at $30-50

Your local facility is a joke
 
2013-09-24 10:27:52 AM  

TNel: Oh so you can have more of the pie.


Can't make mid six-figures if every kid coming out of high school also wants to be an anesthesiologist.
 
2013-09-24 10:28:28 AM  

nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.

Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?


eugenics.
 
2013-09-24 10:28:41 AM  
Sarah Palin warned you all about bus ticket panels but you just wouldn't listen.
 
2013-09-24 10:30:01 AM  

netcentric: It not really funny funny... but it is humorous to find that some folks in my state are thrilled to find out they can get an Obamacare policy for $150 a month.     But when I look up for them the cost of a policy last year through thier 'Blues'.   It ends up being cheaper.

They are going to pay more, and have no clue.

They may get max's eliminated,  but they also sacrifice (or have less) choices and options.
(in my state the Blues were the Insurer of last resort so they were required for decades to cover preexisting)

Now you are finding out there are hidden costs ??    Hahahahahahaha...


You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.
 
2013-09-24 10:30:36 AM  

TNel: Seriously stop, why would you do that? If someone wants to help people and the country needs them why the hell would you do that? Oh so you can have more of the pie.


mmm. Blue waffle pie. Yah, he totally wants that. I'm sure that he would do that because dealing with malpractice shiat, patients, and all the BS that goes along with being a doctor is one giant steaming pile of shiat and not worth the trouble.
 
2013-09-24 10:30:47 AM  

TNel: netcentric: It not really funny funny... but it is humorous to find that some folks in my state are thrilled to find out they can get an Obamacare policy for $150 a month.     But when I look up for them the cost of a policy last year through thier 'Blues'.   It ends up being cheaper.

They are going to pay more, and have no clue.

They may get max's eliminated,  but they also sacrifice (or have less) choices and options.
(in my state the Blues were the Insurer of last resort so they were required for decades to cover preexisting)

Now you are finding out there are hidden costs ??    Hahahahahahaha...

You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.


I do.
 
2013-09-24 10:31:48 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: So..its exactly what i thought: the wont pay staff what they are worth, and are surprised when nobody wants to work there...forcing them to limit their patient load.

They did it to themselves.

For the record..to be competitive, lpns should be starting at about $17-20 and RNs at $30-50

Your local facility is a joke


Yes, that must be it. That doesn't change the fact that it serves a very poor area and is not a well-funded facility like you must be blessed with.
 
2013-09-24 10:32:52 AM  

Weaver95: gretzkyscores: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!

You haven't studied this out yet, have you?


What in Seven Hells had that got to do with being given healthcare? It insures rights pertaining to living your life, not extending it.
 
2013-09-24 10:33:45 AM  

Capo Del Bandito: Weaver95: gretzkyscores: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!

You haven't studied this out yet, have you?

What in Seven Hells had that got to do with being given healthcare? It insures rights pertaining to living your life, not extending it.


Um, technically it's nine Hells, not seven. Nobody reads the classics anymore...
 
2013-09-24 10:33:46 AM  

Weaver95: One thing I haven't checked on is what the evangelicals are preaching about obamacare. Anyone know if Joel Osteen has said anything on point about this?


I'd like to know Joel's position as well, but I'm guessing he wouldn't touch on such a controversial subject for fear of losing half his audience. I hope he's not a sellout, but sadly I'm a heathen with little faith in humans.
 
2013-09-24 10:34:15 AM  

Kit Fister: doyner: Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

I guess we should allow pre-existing conditions to force people into poverty then.  Just human nature, huh?

Didn't say that. But, if people are going to go through the trouble to become doctors and nurses, then they need an incentive to do so. Good pay, grants towards medical school/nursing school, and tax breaks for hospitals to incentiveise them to hire more people.  Then you keep up with demand. As it stands, no one wants to deal with the sick and the dying and handling blue waffles all day for shiat pay. I'd rather be a garbage collector, then at least the smell is somewhat contained and I don't have to handle some other person's diseased junk.

Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.


So which country's system do you think works best?
 
2013-09-24 10:34:18 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: TNel: netcentric: It not really funny funny... but it is humorous to find that some folks in my state are thrilled to find out they can get an Obamacare policy for $150 a month.     But when I look up for them the cost of a policy last year through thier 'Blues'.   It ends up being cheaper.

They are going to pay more, and have no clue.

They may get max's eliminated,  but they also sacrifice (or have less) choices and options.
(in my state the Blues were the Insurer of last resort so they were required for decades to cover preexisting)

Now you are finding out there are hidden costs ??    Hahahahahahaha...

You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.

I do.


Same here.
 
2013-09-24 10:35:05 AM  

Weaver95: Um, technically it's nine Hells, not seven. Nobody reads the classics anymore...


I was quoting A Song of Ice and Fire so NYAH!
 
2013-09-24 10:35:13 AM  

doyner: So which do you want, your well-being, or someone else's idea of your well-being?

Now consider that most people are like farkers.

Which is why we have moderators...for everyone's well being. Obamacare is turning our system into Fark. What we had was 4chan.


Now consider that our moderators unsubmit greenlit threads so they can cherry-pick their own headline. Then banhammer the original submitter.

The moderators don't work for you, buddy. =)
 
2013-09-24 10:35:37 AM  

doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?


I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.
 
2013-09-24 10:35:50 AM  

jjwars1: Weaver95: One thing I haven't checked on is what the evangelicals are preaching about obamacare. Anyone know if Joel Osteen has said anything on point about this?

I'd like to know Joel's position as well, but I'm guessing he wouldn't touch on such a controversial subject for fear of losing half his audience. I hope he's not a sellout, but sadly I'm a heathen with little faith in humans.


I suspect he is vaguely against it but I really don't know for sure.
 
2013-09-24 10:36:29 AM  

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: So..its exactly what i thought: the wont pay staff what they are worth, and are surprised when nobody wants to work there...forcing them to limit their patient load.

They did it to themselves.

For the record..to be competitive, lpns should be starting at about $17-20 and RNs at $30-50

Your local facility is a joke

Yes, that must be it. That doesn't change the fact that it serves a very poor area and is not a well-funded facility like you must be blessed with.


Doesnt matter..nice strawman though.

Why should a highly educated medical professional..who has people's very lives in their hands...accept $15/hr?

Even an LPN makes life and death decisions on a daily basis.

I dunno about you...but id kind of prefer those people making those decisions about me or my family be paid fairly for their level of expertise.
 
2013-09-24 10:37:00 AM  

Capo Del Bandito: Weaver95: Um, technically it's nine Hells, not seven. Nobody reads the classics anymore...

I was quoting A Song of Ice and Fire so NYAH!


nine hells? I think I missed something. If you're referencing norse lore, there's Niflheimr, the land of the straw dead, Helheim, and Nastrondr.
 
2013-09-24 10:37:42 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Doesnt matter..nice strawman though.

Why should a highly educated medical professional..who has people's very lives in their hands...accept $15/hr?

Even an LPN makes life and death decisions on a daily basis.

I dunno about you...but id kind of prefer those people making those decisions about me or my family be paid fairly for their level of expertise.


I agree. But, you don't have to be a dick.
 
2013-09-24 10:38:06 AM  

QueenMamaBee: Direct quote from my Dear Leader:
Jackson said the Affordable Care Act, or "Obamacare," which he said he had nicknamed "the Unaffordable Care Act," had greatly impacted the ability of hospitals, including KDMC, to earn a profit, and that he expected that to continue.

He said the ACAhad taken away billions of dollars from mostly hospitals to be set aside to pay for health insurance for the estimated 30 million Americans who are currently uninsured, with the promise hospitals will be "made whole" once health care reform is fully implemented because those without insurance will have some form of coverage.

"We don't believe that. No one in health care believes that,"Jackson said.


What?  How does that make any sense?  Now I've never overseen the entire financial picture of a hospital before, but i have for private practices and smaller facilities, and I don't think there is any place where a hospital is forced to put money aside so insurance companies can insure the uninsured through the affordable care act.  The only thing I can think of where he's going with that, is that insurance companies have decreased their reimbursement rates so much that it costs the hospitals billions of dollars in revenue.  The insurance companies are doing this to prepare for the influx of the uninsured, and expecting to have to write out more than the premiums bring in.  That makes sense, except for one thing.  None of the contracts i have through major commercial insurance companies had a decrease in reimbursement rates for services provided.

Here's how i see the Affordable Care Act affecting our businesses.  One, we will have an increase in the medical benefits we must pay out to employees.  Currently, depending on position and department, we pay out 50 - 100% of policy premiums for employees.  The majority of our employees are at the 50% rate.  Since they will be required to get health insurance, we will see quite the jump in participation, so our cost of doing business is going to go up.  Many businesses may be forced to pass that increase down to the consumer by increasing the costs of our goods and services.

Now being on the health care side, we will certainly get more patients.  That will bring us an increase in business which will help offset those insurance costs we put in for our employees.  I foresee that our health insurance rates are going to go up in 2014 and 2015 (then again, insurance costs never go down anyways), but hopefully the increase in business will balance it off.  At least for two years until our medicaid rates get reestablished based on the increase in costs.

Bottom line,  i predict an increase in the health care industry because of the Affordable Care Act.
 
2013-09-24 10:38:19 AM  

doyner: Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.

So which country's system do you think works best?


Works best for what?
 
2013-09-24 10:40:25 AM  

Kit Fister: Capo Del Bandito: Weaver95: Um, technically it's nine Hells, not seven. Nobody reads the classics anymore...

I was quoting A Song of Ice and Fire so NYAH!

nine hells? I think I missed something. If you're referencing norse lore, there's Niflheimr, the land of the straw dead, Helheim, and Nastrondr.


The divine comedy by Dante defined hell has having 9 levels. Most pagan belief systems of course didn't have the same concept of hel as the Christian version....and then there is the Chinese who seem to have a passion for very specific and organized mini hellscapes tailored to every imaginable vice in existence.

Personally I don't believe in hell. Not the Christian version anyways. It's a bit too useful as a system of societal control to be an actual afterlife.
 
2013-09-24 10:40:28 AM  

Kit Fister: nine hells? I think I missed something. If you're referencing norse lore, there's Niflheimr, the land of the straw dead, Helheim, and Nastrondr


Dante's Inferno
 
2013-09-24 10:40:37 AM  

Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.


Wow.  Nice dodge.  I guess if nothing can be perfect we shouldn't fix anything.
 
2013-09-24 10:40:40 AM  
Quick!  Somebody expand the H1B pool!

STAT!
 
2013-09-24 10:42:13 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


Fine -

how about regulating the costs of medical schools or we could just keep sucking the university systems dick and subsidize MD loans - that way the college can afford to spend more on their administrative salaries and sports programs.
 
2013-09-24 10:42:37 AM  

Weaver95: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Or get into the claims processing bidness.


The winners in this are the LPNs and such.  The middle ground between no care and real doctors.  Insurance will push people to them as a cheaper alternative.  the Minute Clinics etc... are going to be booming even more now.  I wish I had stock in them.
 
2013-09-24 10:42:56 AM  

This text is now purple: doyner: Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.

So which country's system do you think works best?

Works best for what?


Maximizing public health while minimizing individual cost. (I know, I know, that's crazy talk, but work with me here.)
 
2013-09-24 10:42:57 AM  

Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: Doesnt matter..nice strawman though.

Why should a highly educated medical professional..who has people's very lives in their hands...accept $15/hr?

Even an LPN makes life and death decisions on a daily basis.

I dunno about you...but id kind of prefer those people making those decisions about me or my family be paid fairly for their level of expertise.

I agree. But, you don't have to be a dick.


But at least I...unlike you...work in the medical field...and actually know wtf im talking about when it comes to the real-world impact "obamacare" will have.

I never claimed to not be a dick. I claimed i know more about such things than you...and i do.

You..on the other hand..are possibly less of a dick...but are also much less informed of the truth than I, but yet you keep pretending like u know wtf you're talking about while you clearly do not.
 
2013-09-24 10:43:21 AM  

TNel: netcentric: It not really funny funny... but it is humorous to find that some folks in my state are thrilled to find out they can get an Obamacare policy for $150 a month.     But when I look up for them the cost of a policy last year through thier 'Blues'.   It ends up being cheaper.

They are going to pay more, and have no clue.

They may get max's eliminated,  but they also sacrifice (or have less) choices and options.
(in my state the Blues were the Insurer of last resort so they were required for decades to cover preexisting)

Now you are finding out there are hidden costs ??    Hahahahahahaha...

You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.


Our individual polices to employees are right around $380 a month, and we contribute 50% at least.  So pretty close to that.  But the cost will be going up.
 
2013-09-24 10:43:58 AM  

Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.


Plus in other countries all the doctors hung it up and became garbage men.
 
2013-09-24 10:44:23 AM  

lovefirststool: Kuroshin: Sounds to me like there's market for more Doctors.

Why is it we don't have enough Doctors to handle all these sick people?

Hmmm....

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it. I routinely encourage high school and college students to do something else.


So you went into it solely for the money? Are you a supporter of this little gem of a policy?  http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage _ x.htm
 
2013-09-24 10:44:40 AM  

jfivealive: QueenMamaBee: Direct quote from my Dear Leader:
Jackson said the Affordable Care Act, or "Obamacare," which he said he had nicknamed "the Unaffordable Care Act," had greatly impacted the ability of hospitals, including KDMC, to earn a profit, and that he expected that to continue.

He said the ACAhad taken away billions of dollars from mostly hospitals to be set aside to pay for health insurance for the estimated 30 million Americans who are currently uninsured, with the promise hospitals will be "made whole" once health care reform is fully implemented because those without insurance will have some form of coverage.

"We don't believe that. No one in health care believes that,"Jackson said.

What?  How does that make any sense?  Now I've never overseen the entire financial picture of a hospital before, but i have for private practices and smaller facilities, and I don't think there is any place where a hospital is forced to put money aside so insurance companies can insure the uninsured through the affordable care act.  The only thing I can think of where he's going with that, is that insurance companies have decreased their reimbursement rates so much that it costs the hospitals billions of dollars in revenue.  The insurance companies are doing this to prepare for the influx of the uninsured, and expecting to have to write out more than the premiums bring in.  That makes sense, except for one thing.  None of the contracts i have through major commercial insurance companies had a decrease in reimbursement rates for services provided.

Here's how i see the Affordable Care Act affecting our businesses.  One, we will have an increase in the medical benefits we must pay out to employees.  Currently, depending on position and department, we pay out 50 - 100% of policy premiums for employees.  The majority of our employees are at the 50% rate.  Since they will be required to get health insurance, we will see quite the jump in participation, so our cost of doing business ...


Because he's a Republican and any Democratic idea is ooooooh scarrrrrrrry.

Also, why we HAD to keep all hospital TVs on Fox News, til last summer where he finally lightened up and allowed HGTV, Travel Channel and The Weather Channel.
 
2013-09-24 10:45:09 AM  

This text is now purple: Highroller48: Oh, I forgot. For-Profit essential medical care can regulate itself and will fix all its own problems!

Seriously, imagine if the fire department and police worked the same way as health care in the U.S.

On the short term, it sort of does work like the police.

Consider Houston -- Houston had a police force arguable adequate for its population and number of criminals. It was at capacity, but could handle its load. Then Katrina happens. Suddenly, Houston absorbs an extra 100,000 of New Orleans' criminals. The police can still only work at 100% capacity, so all of those extra crimes result in reduced police coverage across the board. Net crime increases.


A 100,000 criminals huh? Interesting. You're basing that on what exactly?
 
2013-09-24 10:45:22 AM  

doyner: Wow. Nice dodge. I guess if nothing can be perfect we shouldn't fix anything.


Uhm, I didn't say that. But so far we've put a bandaid on a sawn-off limb. You want to fix this? it's going to take a farkload more work than what we've done.
 
2013-09-24 10:46:26 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: But at least I...unlike you...work in the medical field...and actually know wtf im talking about when it comes to the real-world impact "obamacare" will have.

I never claimed to not be a dick. I claimed i know more about such things than you...and i do.

You..on the other hand..are possibly less of a dick...but are also much less informed of the truth than I, but yet you keep pretending like u know wtf you're talking about while you clearly do not.


Fair enough.
 
2013-09-24 10:47:05 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.

Plus in other countries all the doctors hung it up and became garbage men.


Just like you, buddy.

/garbage men, I learned, make a surprisingly good salary.
 
2013-09-24 10:50:39 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.

Plus in other countries all the doctors hung it up and became garbage men.

Just like you, buddy.


What?

/garbage men, I learned, make a surprisingly good salary.

They're unionized, of course they do. Not exactly a growth industry though, I really doubt many will stop to consider sanitation over medical school.
 
2013-09-24 10:51:58 AM  

doyner: Thank you for boiling this down to its essence. The Obamacare "debate" is essentialy money vs. humanity. Good to know where people stand on these things.


You can't legislate humanity.
 
2013-09-24 10:52:01 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Well if we lived in a reasonable country that was not driven by the profit motive educating a doctor would not cost so much that one of the top earning salaried workers are in debt until their 50. Want to lower the cost of education? Lets create a five trillion dollar Federal University system that is free to all applicants who meet the standards. Of course that University only offers education no sports.
 
2013-09-24 10:52:07 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: They're unionized, of course they do. Not exactly a growth industry though, I really doubt many will stop to consider sanitation over medical school.


For about $75k/year? And never having to look at or deal with anyone's diseased crap? I would.
 
2013-09-24 10:52:54 AM  
Obamaphone!
 
2013-09-24 10:52:57 AM  
Steve McQueen's Motorcycle:

I do.

Same here.


Good thing your employer is nice, I pay $100 a month for family coverage because my employer cares about it's people.  My wife's work wanted like $400 for single person and like $750 for family.
 
2013-09-24 10:53:49 AM  
Okay...
But there is literally one doctor in the city that is taking new patients.  And he's almost full.
Soooooooo... yeah.

Woo.
 
2013-09-24 10:54:00 AM  

Kit Fister: doyner: Wow. Nice dodge. I guess if nothing can be perfect we shouldn't fix anything.

Uhm, I didn't say that. But so far we've put a bandaid on a sawn-off limb. You want to fix this? it's going to take a farkload more work than what we've done.


I'd rather get a bandaid on a sawn-off limb than bleed to death while someone steals my wallet.

I don't like it.  I want single-payer.
 
2013-09-24 10:54:01 AM  

TNel: You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.


I just pulled this quote online. There were options for under $90 a month but with a large deductible. In this case I can get a great PPO for under $150 and for $28 more I could get dental and vision.


dl.dropboxusercontent.com
 
2013-09-24 10:54:33 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.


I have an issue with your number 2.  Most doctors (even up here in our Great Frozen Socialist Paradise) already spend as little time as necessary with their patients because they can bill more patients that way.   So don't expect a big change in the way most doctors operate.
 
2013-09-24 10:54:52 AM  
image.patriotpost.us
 
2013-09-24 10:55:20 AM  

Kit Fister: Uhm, I didn't say that. But so far we've put a bandaid on a sawn-off limb. You want to fix this? it's going to take a farkload more work than what we've done.


Logically wouldn't it make more sense to completely restructure it instead of tagging on an extra burden?

Not like we could put everything on hold, hence logically not realistically, while a completely new system is engaged?
 
2013-09-24 10:55:23 AM  

slykens1: TNel: You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.

I just pulled this quote online. There were options for under $90 a month but with a large deductible. In this case I can get a great PPO for under $150 and for $28 more I could get dental and vision.


[dl.dropboxusercontent.com image 796x715]


Good Lord, that's better insurance than what my employer offers (and I pay $168/mo for)
 
2013-09-24 10:55:32 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: They're unionized, of course they do. Not exactly a growth industry though, I really doubt many will stop to consider sanitation over medical school.

For about $75k/year? And never having to look at or deal with anyone's diseased crap? I would.


Something tells me you don't really have a passion for medicine.

And if you think you won't be looking at diseased crap as a sanitation worker, I've got some terrible news for you.
 
2013-09-24 10:55:53 AM  

King Something: Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?

Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!


Because what America truly needs is another 100 billion program to develop stealth toilets or a flying palace for Pentagon brass to lounge in while being shuttled to their "tactical briefing" in sunny Cancun.
 
2013-09-24 10:56:15 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Kit Fister: doyner: So which country's system do you think works best?

I don't know, from my experience every country's healthcare system has snafus that affect care.

Plus in other countries all the doctors hung it up and became garbage men.

Just like you, buddy.

/garbage men, I learned, make a surprisingly good salary.


And only work one day a week.
 
2013-09-24 10:56:24 AM  
And ill just put this out there since i started in the medical profession as an LPN:

Most people...including me before i became one almost 12 years ago...DRASTICALLY underrate the level of expertise someone with "just" an lpn has.

Now, as an NP, I can say with authority...70% of what I need to know to do my job...i learned as an lpn.

They arent nurses who arent smart enough to be an rn. Most of the lpn's i know are lpn's because they justbwant to be nurses and not have to deal with the administrative shiat that comes with that BSN.

In fact..i can also say that lpns know at LEAST 98% of what rn's know...and functionally, there isnt really any difference at all. The only reason there IS a difference is bc the state boards actually limit LPNs. They know HOW to hang blood...the state board just artificially prevents them from doing so.
 
2013-09-24 11:00:39 AM  

QueenMamaBee: Good Lord, that's better insurance than what my employer offers (and I pay $168/mo for)


In the interests of full disclosure, using Geisinger is cheating a little bit. They are generally very well priced and the coverage is as good or better than the Blues and other commercial carriers in-network. They are a regional plan in our area so the out-of-network coverage is not very good at all.

But, if you live here they are usually the least expensive option with a good network and lots of facilities.

I considered taking a job a few years ago where I sat in on the annual benefits call - the HR rep clearly stated that those in the office I would have been in were not going to be popular that day as Geisinger beat every plan on the board by 50% in employee contributions - to the tune of $300+/mo difference for family coverage.
 
2013-09-24 11:02:35 AM  

slykens1: QueenMamaBee: Good Lord, that's better insurance than what my employer offers (and I pay $168/mo for)

In the interests of full disclosure, using Geisinger is cheating a little bit. They are generally very well priced and the coverage is as good or better than the Blues and other commercial carriers in-network. They are a regional plan in our area so the out-of-network coverage is not very good at all.

But, if you live here they are usually the least expensive option with a good network and lots of facilities.

I considered taking a job a few years ago where I sat in on the annual benefits call - the HR rep clearly stated that those in the office I would have been in were not going to be popular that day as Geisinger beat every plan on the board by 50% in employee contributions - to the tune of $300+/mo difference for family coverage.


I farking hate the Blues.
 
2013-09-24 11:03:08 AM  

tricycleracer: How to deal with a full bus:


Later...

www.icansmellyourbrains.com
 
2013-09-24 11:07:25 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Kit Fister: The more you eat the more you fart: Doesnt matter..nice strawman though.

Why should a highly educated medical professional..who has people's very lives in their hands...accept $15/hr?

Even an LPN makes life and death decisions on a daily basis.

I dunno about you...but id kind of prefer those people making those decisions about me or my family be paid fairly for their level of expertise.

I agree. But, you don't have to be a dick.

But at least I...unlike you...work in the medical field...and actually know wtf im talking about when it comes to the real-world impact "obamacare" will have.

I never claimed to not be a dick. I claimed i know more about such things than you...and i do.

You..on the other hand..are possibly less of a dick...but are also much less informed of the truth than I, but yet you keep pretending like u know wtf you're talking about while you clearly do not.


With all due respect, anyone who claims with certainty how the ACA will change healthcare one way or the other is an unknowing gullible partisan schill. I mean no offense, but this is the truth. I've been a victim of the propaganda as well, but now I'm way high up on this pedestal of enlightenment. (I thought I'd throw that strawman out there now before someone else does.) Anyways, reality is we won't know how all the parts fall into place till the ACA has been fully implemented and established. There ARE going to be kinks as patients, insurers, healthcare professionals, state governments, and the Feds work things out, but it's part of implementation. Only time will tell.
 
2013-09-24 11:08:27 AM  
I'd say it's more like a horny Chihuahua on a chinchilla pantleg but that's must me.

What is there a hole in your glove kid?  I'm pitching but you ain't catching!

- Foghorn Leghorn, The Blue Material
 
2013-09-24 11:10:14 AM  
Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.
 
2013-09-24 11:10:16 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: And ill just put this out there since i started in the medical profession as an LPN:

Most people...including me before i became one almost 12 years ago...DRASTICALLY underrate the level of expertise someone with "just" an lpn has.

Now, as an NP, I can say with authority...70% of what I need to know to do my job...i learned as an lpn.

They arent nurses who arent smart enough to be an rn. Most of the lpn's i know are lpn's because they justbwant to be nurses and not have to deal with the administrative shiat that comes with that BSN.

In fact..i can also say that lpns know at LEAST 98% of what rn's know...and functionally, there isnt really any difference at all. The only reason there IS a difference is bc the state boards actually limit LPNs. They know HOW to hang blood...the state board just artificially prevents them from doing so.


My wife is an LPN, and its amazing how much she knows compared to a doctor.  Considering they do the majority of the call backs and explanations to patients about what's going on, get first look at all the lab work, tests, etc.  they just have no choice but absorb an incredible amount of information.  Also helps she works in an office with several primaries and specialists.
 
2013-09-24 11:11:22 AM  

QueenMamaBee: slykens1: TNel: You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.

I just pulled this quote online. There were options for under $90 a month but with a large deductible. In this case I can get a great PPO for under $150 and for $28 more I could get dental and vision.


[dl.dropboxusercontent.com image 796x715]

Good Lord, that's better insurance than what my employer offers (and I pay $168/mo for)


That is cheap, I would be torn on the top or bottom depending on if you plan on hitting doctors more than 3 times a year but impressively cheap.  Take it back.  The cheap one gives vision and dental also.
 
2013-09-24 11:12:50 AM  

Weaver95: FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!

All those sick people are just a drain on society anyways. The true ayn randian followers of Jesus  Darwinian followers of science know that the strong survive and the weak shall perish because THAT'S how the god of peace and love  nature works gotdamnit! Darwin is gonna kill the shiat outta the sick and poor, that's what he's gonna do!

 
2013-09-24 11:16:43 AM  
There will still be a large crowd of people that still hate, and will forever hate and avoid going to the doctor, even if it is free.

/me
 
2013-09-24 11:18:30 AM  

QueenMamaBee: The more you eat the more you fart: I work in healthcare..so getting a kick...


99% of the crap you hear about obamacare farking up heathcare is just that...crap.

THIS

It seems to me that more of the people we see actually having insurance is a good thing.


Yeah, heaven forbid any of us healthy, relatively wealthy people should be inconvenienced by a crush of people in need of health care that has been beyond reach.

Sounds absolutely horrible too, with clinics having to hire more people to deal with all that extra business. This is going to screw everything up.
 
2013-09-24 11:20:44 AM  

Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.


You've never read real books, have you? May I recommend starting with John Rawls.
 
2013-09-24 11:21:12 AM  

jfivealive: The more you eat the more you fart: And ill just put this out there since i started in the medical profession as an LPN:

Most people...including me before i became one almost 12 years ago...DRASTICALLY underrate the level of expertise someone with "just" an lpn has.

Now, as an NP, I can say with authority...70% of what I need to know to do my job...i learned as an lpn.

They arent nurses who arent smart enough to be an rn. Most of the lpn's i know are lpn's because they justbwant to be nurses and not have to deal with the administrative shiat that comes with that BSN.

In fact..i can also say that lpns know at LEAST 98% of what rn's know...and functionally, there isnt really any difference at all. The only reason there IS a difference is bc the state boards actually limit LPNs. They know HOW to hang blood...the state board just artificially prevents them from doing so.

My wife is an LPN, and its amazing how much she knows compared to a doctor.  Considering they do the majority of the call backs and explanations to patients about what's going on, get first look at all the lab work, tests, etc.  they just have no choice but absorb an incredible amount of information.  Also helps she works in an office with several primaries and specialists.


Bc most ppl dont understand what REALLY goes on.

How do you think the doctor becomes aware of that abnormal lab result? Because nurses like your wife get the report, sees the result, and flags it for the doctor to see. Shes just as knowledgeable about the various lab test results as any physician and thats a FACT.

I depend on the lpn's working under me and trust their expertise implicitly
 
2013-09-24 11:21:38 AM  

Mose: Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.


Of course they do. The existence of a two tier health care system within driving distance is perfect if you are able to purchase the top tier and you live in another country so  don't have to deal with the economic or moral consequences of that system.

I like that there's cheap beer just south of us in Mexico. That's not an argument in favor of the Mexican economy.
 
2013-09-24 11:24:31 AM  

jaybeezey: Weaver95: FlashHarry: Bareefer Obonghit: Sorry assholes, we're fresh out of health care!

yeah, let them use the emergency room as a doctor and let us pay for it when they can't! it's worked so well before! besides, preventative care is for pussies, amirite!

All those sick people are just a drain on society anyways. The true ayn randian followers of Jesus  Darwinian followers of science know that the strong survive and the weak shall perish because THAT'S how the god of peace and love  nature works gotdamnit! Darwin is gonna kill the shiat outta the sick and poor, that's what he's gonna do!


I like you.
 
2013-09-24 11:26:23 AM  

grinding_journalist: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Did you miss the part in all the articles discussing the rollout where they say doctor fees are going to be a percentage of what they are for medicare patients? And the part where medicare pays about 25-50% of private insurance?

So, sure go to med school if you want to be a "government doctor" and be in debt till you're 50.


Yeah I have relatives that say that same thing.  They are both doctors and they complain that health care reform will mean that it will no longer be worth it to go to medical school.  Sometimes they say that in their mansion.  Sometimes it's at their summer house on the lake or maybe it's at their place in Florida.  They probably say it on their yacht but it's hard to hear them above the noise of all the other boats and sports cars they own.  I feel bad for future doctors.  They will probably have to get by on less then a million a year.
 
2013-09-24 11:26:47 AM  

Tigger: moral consequences


I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.
 
2013-09-24 11:28:30 AM  

Tigger: Mose: Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.

Of course they do. The existence of a two tier health care system within driving distance is perfect if you are able to purchase the top tier and you live in another country so  don't have to deal with the economic or moral consequences of that system.

I like that there's cheap beer just south of us in Mexico. That's not an argument in favor of the Mexican economy.


Easy, Tigger.  I wasn't arguing one way or another.  It was just an interesting perspective I hadn't considered before.

Consider changing your name to Francis.
 
2013-09-24 11:29:05 AM  

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


so essentially "fark you, i got mine"?
 
2013-09-24 11:30:52 AM  

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way?  Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone.  I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?
 
2013-09-24 11:33:07 AM  

doyner: I want single-payer.


Bide your time. It's coming.
 
2013-09-24 11:33:32 AM  

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.
 
2013-09-24 11:33:47 AM  

surrender903: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.

so essentially "fark you, i got mine"?


Basically yeah. It's tough and unpleasant, but when ti comes down to it, most people don't have the luxury or bandwidth to deal with the problems of others based on the crap in their own lives, and most people wouldn't want to be responsible for people they have no connection to.

People give to charity, they donate to the homeless, they put in time at the soup kitchen or help a million other programs and orgs set up to help people, but for most of us, that's the best we can do and after that, it's up to you to take the help and move forward.

Or, as a friend of mine always put it: We'll help you back up on your feet, but we're not going to carry you.
 
2013-09-24 11:35:39 AM  

Mose: Speaking of the great white north, I vacationed with my wife up in Nova Scotia this summer and we met a nice couple that lived outside of Toronto who said they knew several people who went to the states for various treatments because they didn't want to wait and perceived the level of care to be better here.  The couple was married with no kids and probably well off middle class, and I'm assuming all their friends were as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.  It was just an odd moment as my wife was about to make her preference for single payer systems known (one political issue she likes expressing her opinion about) as she works as a PT and sees how bad our insurance system works currently.  Half the time I think we'd be better off moving to a single payer system.  It was kind of odd though, hearing our two Canadian breakfast companions hope that the US doesn't go single payer because they like having the option to come here.


Simply put, the US system is very good if you are wealthy.

Wealthier people will appreciate a system that prioritizes wealth over need.
 
2013-09-24 11:35:47 AM  

RedTank: How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way? Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone. I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?


I don't expect humanity to survive. In fact, I'm surprised we've lasted this long.

Look, I vote. I push for better laws for healthcare and such. I donate to charities and work for Habitat for Humanity and other charities when I can. But there's only so much that I can do as an individual. I don't make a lot of money, and I dont' have a lot of time or bandwidth to donate to other people. At some point, those other people need to learn to fend for themselves and contribute if they can.  I can only lead my own life, I can't lead yours too.
 
2013-09-24 11:36:35 AM  

Kit Fister: surrender903: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.

so essentially "fark you, i got mine"?

Basically yeah. It's tough and unpleasant, but when ti comes down to it, most people don't have the luxury or bandwidth to deal with the problems of others based on the crap in their own lives, and most people wouldn't want to be responsible for people they have no connection to.

People give to charity, they donate to the homeless, they put in time at the soup kitchen or help a million other programs and orgs set up to help people, but for most of us, that's the best we can do and after that, it's up to you to take the help and move forward.

Or, as a friend of mine always put it: We'll help you back up on your feet, but we're not going to carry you.


The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured.  Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else."  Healthcare is not mutually exclusive.  Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.
 
2013-09-24 11:36:48 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.


No, not everyone does think like I do. And thank god for that. But as of right now, I gotta be concerned about me and mine and focus on keeping that together. Maybe someday when I'm wealthy and I have nothing better to do, I'll foist myself onto the homeless or the destitute and force them to live life the way I think they should and take on the problems of others.
 
2013-09-24 11:39:18 AM  
Yet they are able to come up with $50 a week for smokes and $50 or so a week for the drink???
Not that I don't realize there are folks that are so down and out that this is their only vise to make their crappy life have meaning.
We need to teach, we need to shove economics down our kids. We need to start a movement to make it cool not to have 100 shoes and those who do losers! We need to get our priorities strait. It is bull to say you can't pay for health insurance while wearing $150 jeans and $200 shoes, while eating out every day!
 
2013-09-24 11:42:16 AM  

Thisbymaster: You mean treating the people that have needed it for years but couldn't afford it? Yes there will be a surge at the beginning but after that it will drop to normal levels.


No, because those people that were being left out to die will continue to be in the system.  The surge will decrease but settle to a new, higher level.

shaumah: I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.


He must have been a Teabagger that bought into all the Republican lies.  ACA won't hurt the docs.

There's no issue of forcing people to be docs or nurses.  Pay enough and they will come.
 
2013-09-24 11:42:35 AM  

surrender903: The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured. Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else." Healthcare is not mutually exclusive. Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.


I didn't say that it did. My original point was that people don't go into the business of healthcare because it costs a lot and given the job description, not many people wnat to do the job, and that's their choice. The attitude that people should be made to is silly.

If we're going to make a change for the better, then we need to do a lot more than just force coverage for a bunch of people without fixing some of the underlying problems in the system in general:

1. Cost of education.
2. Cost of supplies, medications, and insurance
3. Ability of insurers to collude with hospitals and doctors to artificially set pricing.
4. Ability of insurers to collude with each other to artificially set pricing
5. Overhauling the patent system such that lifesaving medications cannot be artificially inflated or kept out of the hands of people who need it by companies making a profit
6. Overhauling the way medications get approved and how research is conducted to stop favoring pharma companies who research to make a profit, not to stop diseases.
7. Overhauling how people view health care in this country and the mechanisms that are there to provide it
8. Improving the overall health of the general populace to reduce the dependence on healthcare.

and so on and so on and so on.
 
2013-09-24 11:43:51 AM  
Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free
 
2013-09-24 11:45:22 AM  

Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.

No, not everyone does think like I do. And thank god for that. But as of right now, I gotta be concerned about me and mine and focus on keeping that together.


So you understand the thinking behind poor and middle class people that couldn't access health care/insurance wanting some kind of subsidy or at least the chance to get in the game.

Maybe someday when I'm wealthy and I have nothing better to do, I'll foist myself onto the homeless or the destitute and force them to live life the way I think they should and take on the problems of others.

Is this Randian parody?
 
2013-09-24 11:46:24 AM  

Kit Fister: surrender903: The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured. Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else." Healthcare is not mutually exclusive. Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.

I didn't say that it did. My original point was that people don't go into the business of healthcare because it costs a lot and given the job description, not many people wnat to do the job, and that's their choice. The attitude that people should be made to is silly.

If we're going to make a change for the better, then we need to do a lot more than just force coverage for a bunch of people without fixing some of the underlying problems in the system in general:

1. Cost of education.
2. Cost of supplies, medications, and insurance
3. Ability of insurers to collude with hospitals and doctors to artificially set pricing.
4. Ability of insurers to collude with each other to artificially set pricing
5. Overhauling the patent system such that lifesaving medications cannot be artificially inflated or kept out of the hands of people who need it by companies making a profit
6. Overhauling the way medications get approved and how research is conducted to stop favoring pharma companies who research to make a profit, not to stop diseases.
7. Overhauling how people view health care in this country and the mechanisms that are there to provide it
8. Improving the overall health of the general populace to reduce the dependence on healthcare.

and so on and so on and so on.


Ill actually agree with most of this.
 
2013-09-24 11:48:34 AM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way? Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone. I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?

I don't expect humanity to survive. In fact, I'm surprised we've lasted this long.

Look, I vote. I push for better laws for healthcare and such. I donate to charities and work for Habitat for Humanity and other charities when I can. But there's only so much that I can do as an individual. I don't make a lot of money, and I dont' have a lot of time or bandwidth to donate to other people. At some point, those other people need to learn to fend for themselves and contribute if they can.  I can only lead my own life, I can't lead yours too.


Fair enough.  I respect your honesty and your charity.

Although, I will say even as cliche as it is, we are only as strong as the weakest link.  We cannot ignore the weak link otherwise it will only get weaker and ultimately weaken us all and possibility break

We all pay for each others healthcare one way or another.  It doesn't matter if the government forces us or not, we will all pay.  I'd rather our healthcare be a flawed system built on accountability rather than a flawed system based on exclusivity.   I make the distinction based solely on morality.
 
2013-09-24 11:49:25 AM  

KimNorth: Yet they are able to come up with $50 a week for smokes and $50 or so a week for the drink???
Not that I don't realize there are folks that are so down and out that this is their only vise to make their crappy life have meaning.
We need to teach, we need to shove economics down our kids. We need to start a movement to make it cool not to have 100 shoes and those who do losers! We need to get our priorities strait. It is bull to say you can't pay

 for health insurance while wearing $150 jeans and $200 shoes, while eating out every day!

Yeah! Just like how you can't argue you shouldn't pay more taxes if you're rich. You're rich, dummy! Of course you can pay more.

It is bull to say you can't pay  more taxes while fueling up a 20 million dollar jet to take you to your 40 million dollar yacht.
 
2013-09-24 11:50:48 AM  
All I see when I RTFA is DOCTORS HAVE ENOUGH MONEY NOW, THANKS.

/you were ALREADY treating me, you lazy motherfarkers
 
2013-09-24 11:51:08 AM  

TelemonianAjax: Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.

You've never read real books, have you? May I recommend starting with John Rawls.


A cursory google search says 'american moral philosopher'.

Not really interested. More into moral relativity. That seems to be the main force behind the 'everyone deserves to have access to health related services; 'Other people dying and stuff is sad'. Life's tough. It sucks. Learn to deal with it.

Instead we have 'noooo everyone else has to be taken care of cuz equality'.

Damn normal people. They ruin everything nice.
 
2013-09-24 11:52:19 AM  

Loren: There's no issue of forcing people to be docs or nurses. Pay enough and they will come.


Unless the cost of malpractice insurance and the other administrative BS that goes with it is unappealing, no matter the pay*.


* - I have family members who are doctors who biatch about this all the time, thus I cite them as my source. I fully admit that I'm not a doctor, so I will bow to their experience
 
2013-09-24 11:52:49 AM  

Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.


Not everyone shares your failings.
 
2013-09-24 11:53:20 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Yeah! Just like how you can't argue you shouldn't pay more taxes if you're rich. You're rich, dummy! Of course you can pay more.

It is bull to say you can't pay more taxes while fueling up a 20 million dollar jet to take you to your 40 million dollar yacht.


But is that all you have for being ok with taxing the rich more? "They have more, the government should be able to take it"?

I don't see how that's any different from their 'i earned it it's mine' attitude.
 
2013-09-24 11:53:24 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: You should consider that not everyone thinks like you do.

No, not everyone does think like I do. And thank god for that. But as of right now, I gotta be concerned about me and mine and focus on keeping that together.

So you understand the thinking behind poor and middle class people that couldn't access health care/insurance wanting some kind of subsidy or at least the chance to get in the game.

Maybe someday when I'm wealthy and I have nothing better to do, I'll foist myself onto the homeless or the destitute and force them to live life the way I think they should and take on the problems of others.

Is this Randian parody?


No, it's sarcasm.
 
2013-09-24 11:54:44 AM  

kortex: Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free


As opposed to only giving the corporations freebies? We bailed out wall street, we can spare a couple billion for health care. Suck it up and learn to deal with it.
 
2013-09-24 11:55:08 AM  
No one was denied healthcare before. Not in America. So get over that bullshiat. What did we have 10% uninsured?

Now, they will be. Not only that, our most talented doctors will be leaving the field.
 
2013-09-24 11:55:17 AM  

Tigger: Not everyone shares your failings.


Why would you consider it a 'failing' because someone has a different set of morality guidlines than you?

That's like the Bible Thumpers saying you're a failure because you didn't accept zombie Jesus as your lord and savior. Your idea of Good and Evil supercedes his?

Sheer dickery.
 
2013-09-24 11:55:50 AM  

Tigger: Not everyone shares your failings.


So, it's a failing that I don't go out of my way to prop up other people, more than building houses with Habitat for Humanity, volunteering at the soup kitchen, donating to the local food pantry and to places like St. Judes and other systems that help people afford medical care, and so on and so forth?  Good to know. Guess I can stop doing all that.
 
2013-09-24 11:57:20 AM  

washingtonman: No one was denied healthcare before. Not in America. So get over that bullshiat. What did we have 10% uninsured?

Now, they will be. Not only that, our most talented doctors will be leaving the field.


I'm not sure I wanted to have a doctor who only looked at my medical files in terms of how my illness might best be optimized for his bottom line...so yeah, what you describe is actually a good thing then.
 
2013-09-24 11:57:22 AM  

Weaver95: kortex: Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free

As opposed to only giving the corporations freebies? We bailed out wall street, we can spare a couple billion for health care. Suck it up and learn to deal with it.


I think I'd rather we bailed out main street and regulated the shiat out of the banks. I don't think our founding fathers envisioned a government that let financial systems that raped the shiat out of their people.
 
2013-09-24 11:57:34 AM  

lovefirststool: Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it.

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it.

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it.

Because, speaking as a physician, it isn't worth it.


You're not really a physician, are you?
 
2013-09-24 11:58:35 AM  

Kit Fister: Weaver95: kortex: Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free

As opposed to only giving the corporations freebies? We bailed out wall street, we can spare a couple billion for health care. Suck it up and learn to deal with it.

I think I'd rather we bailed out main street and regulated the shiat out of the banks. I don't think our founding fathers envisioned a government that let financial systems that raped the shiat out of their people.


That's what the GOP believes tho.
 
2013-09-24 11:58:50 AM  

RedTank: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

I love how people keep bringing up morality as if anyone even began to consider morality in the equation with regards to healthcare. Seriously, most people in this country don't give a flying fark about people they don't know, and for most of us, it's not our problem.

/I got enough of my own shiat to worry about, I don't need to worry about your shiat too.

How do you expect humanity to survive if you think that way?  Not giving a fark is step one to the end of everyone.  I'll bet you don't vote either because what does one vote matter right?


im biting the hand that feeds me, so to speak, but... what he said

we're stronger together than alone. individuals can improve the length and quality of their own life by 'fark you I got mine' but we improve the longevity and quality of society by cooperating

am I imagining that it tends to be people who have more than enough who say 'fark you I got mine'? they wouldnt even notice a bit less
 
2013-09-24 12:00:05 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: HotWingConspiracy: Yeah! Just like how you can't argue you shouldn't pay more taxes if you're rich. You're rich, dummy! Of course you can pay more.

It is bull to say you can't pay more taxes while fueling up a 20 million dollar jet to take you to your 40 million dollar yacht.

But is that all you have for being ok with taxing the rich more? "They have more, the government should be able to take it"?


No, that's not all I have.

I don't see how that's any different from their 'i earned it it's mine' attitude.

I'm merely applying the argument against the poor against the rich. You just said "Life's tough. It sucks. Learn to deal with it."

This applies to the wealthy too. Sucks that you're so rich that you pay a different tax rate. Life ain't fair, boo hoo. Learn to deal with it.
 
2013-09-24 12:01:21 PM  

Weaver95: Kit Fister: Weaver95: kortex: Yeah libtards let's give everyone everything for free

As opposed to only giving the corporations freebies? We bailed out wall street, we can spare a couple billion for health care. Suck it up and learn to deal with it.

I think I'd rather we bailed out main street and regulated the shiat out of the banks. I don't think our founding fathers envisioned a government that let financial systems that raped the shiat out of their people.

That's what the GOP believes tho.


Which is why I'm more and more believing that the heart of the GOP, the ultra-right-wing assholes, can get farked. However, I don't get the feeling that even if we kicked out the GOP, things would change much substantively.
 
2013-09-24 12:02:00 PM  

Weaver95: Capo Del Bandito: Weaver95: gretzkyscores: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

This is exactly why I laugh when I hear leftists and liberals describe themselves as "reality-based". Reading through these comments here, none of them appear to be concerned in the least with the reality that is coming and utterly fail to comprehend what the law of unintended consequences has in store for all of us because of this abomination of a health care law.

But hey, how about a few more snarky and unfunny comments mocking republican/christian stereotypes - that ought to show everyone how smrt you leftists all are! I'm sure everything will work out just fine and the poorest people in our society will receive a never-ending supply of Mayo-clinic-levels of healthcare for free! Economics be damned!

You haven't studied this out yet, have you?

What in Seven Hells had that got to do with being given healthcare? It insures rights pertaining to living your life, not extending it.

Um, technically it's nine Hells, not seven. Nobody reads the classics anymore...


They got their Hells mixed up with their seas. Amateur's mistake.
 
2013-09-24 12:02:41 PM  
Fact one : We're not giving health care away for free. We are paying for it, collectively, through taxation, because that's a good thing to pay for. Healthy people is both practical and ethical. Valuing life is both practical and ethical. And the only two arguments for not doing this are a: to instead give all that money stupidly to the military and already wealthy corporations or b: to be pointlessly greedy, short sighted and petty. So to hell with all that noise.

Fact two : Most people who need assistance need it temporarily. They aren't forever poor. Of those who are, most are handicapped and definitely do need assistance. Anyone saying, "these people need to learn to fend for themselves," are pretending this isn't the case, which is to say that they're appealing to a lie. 

Fact three : The health care system, including the insurance angle, in the USA is broken. Like the housing problem, costs have gotten so high that there is no easy fend for yourself option anymore. Even among the insured, over 80% of the population is in a situation where any serious health care problems will redefine their economic status, often leaving them in a crisis state. This is not their fault for being lazy or stupid or anything like that. The system is broken and it ensures this will happen.

Now, if you're one of the people on this thread, or anywhere, saying things like, "We can't give everyone health care FOR FREE," or, "These people need to learn to be responsible and self sufficient, LIKE ME," or any of that pure drivel, then congrats, you've just proven  that you're an ignorant, petty twatsicle. Not even joking, you have directly appealed to the most bullshiat, provably invalid arguments. Stop doing that, because more than anything, the one thing this nation/world/species needs less of is mouthy, ignorant, self centered little assholes.
 
2013-09-24 12:03:02 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: This applies to the wealthy too. Sucks that you're so rich that you pay a different tax rate. Life ain't fair, boo hoo. Learn to deal with it.


You're twisting my words. I was saying life's unfair in it's randomness. It's not fair. The laws and such are supposed to be fair for the people etc. Not that they are a shining example of goodness right now, but ti's supposed to be for the betterment of society, blah blah blah.

Why should we up their taxes other than 'you have it, we're going to take it it's unfair'.

I'm ok with reality being chaotic. Making laws should be a bit more orderly.
 
2013-09-24 12:06:37 PM  

Lady J: im biting the hand that feeds me, so to speak, but... what he said

we're stronger together than alone. individuals can improve the length and quality of their own life by 'fark you I got mine' but we improve the longevity and quality of society by cooperating

am I imagining that it tends to be people who have more than enough who say 'fark you I got mine'? they wouldnt even notice a bit less


On a personal note, I disagree with it just because society at large has never given a shiat about me when I needed them most, so why should I give a flying fark about them? fark 'em. I'm all out of farks to give because I've had to fight and scratch for my own sake. No one gave me anything.

However, I'm all about being smart in the way we handle programs to help people. I would like to see more systems there to help in general, and it's only right that every member of society contributes in an equal fashion, 1% on down because they're still part of the tribe.
 
2013-09-24 12:08:50 PM  

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


I have two engineering friends who are in medical school. When it became clear that good-paying engineering jobs for new grads are a thing of the past, they went back to school to become MDs.
 
2013-09-24 12:09:59 PM  

Lady J: im biting the hand that feeds me, so to speak, but... what he said

we're stronger together than alone. individuals can improve the length and quality of their own life by 'fark you I got mine' but we improve the longevity and quality of society by cooperating

am I imagining that it tends to be people who have more than enough who say 'fark you I got mine'? they wouldnt even notice a bit less


This is true to a degree.  We all have to progress forward equally.  That equality id not free and we must all pay for it and that equal progression can be forced and regulated by the government through taxation.  But on the other side of the coin we have to make sure the inequality gap does not grow or shrink too much.  There is a perfect mathematical distribution of poor, middle class, and rich.  That balance and that proportion is achieved by and maintained through capitalism.  Combining both ideals together means we all move forward at the same rate but we all still have room to reward those that are more skilled and motivated.

/rambling, thinking out loud...
 
2013-09-24 12:11:26 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: Tigger: Not everyone shares your failings.

Why would you consider it a 'failing' because someone has a different set of morality guidlines than you?

That's like the Bible Thumpers saying you're a failure because you didn't accept zombie Jesus as your lord and savior. Your idea of Good and Evil supercedes his?

Sheer dickery.


You've already stated you believe in moral relativism. That's the equivalent of saying you believe the earth is 6000 years old in a discussion about astronomy.
 
2013-09-24 12:11:39 PM  
i.images.cdn.fotopedia.comThere's plenty of room on the bus. It just won't be as comfy of a ride.
 
2013-09-24 12:13:13 PM  
Just nationalize it
 
2013-09-24 12:13:32 PM  

RedTank: This is true to a degree. We all have to progress forward equally. That equality id not free and we must all pay for it and that equal progression can be forced and regulated by the government through taxation. But on the other side of the coin we have to make sure the inequality gap does not grow or shrink too much. There is a perfect mathematical distribution of poor, middle class, and rich. That balance and that proportion is achieved by and maintained through capitalism. Combining both ideals together means we all move forward at the same rate but we all still have room to reward those that are more skilled and motivated.

/rambling, thinking out loud...


I don't think we HAVE to progress forward equally, and that it's going to end up hurting us more than helping us.
 
2013-09-24 12:14:16 PM  

olddeegee: [i.images.cdn.fotopedia.com image 850x504]There's plenty of room on the bus. It just won't be as comfy of a ride.


What if we just tax higher earners so that we can buy more buses?
 
2013-09-24 12:15:02 PM  
Why can't these uninsured people just die quietly already?
 
2013-09-24 12:16:14 PM  

Kit Fister: I don't think we HAVE to progress forward equally, and that it's going to end up hurting us more than helping us.


No, we do for sure.  There are indirect costs associated with not progressing forward equally.  Psychological costs included.

If we can all progress equally then we either need to all take a step back or be willing to pay more.
 
2013-09-24 12:18:17 PM  

James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.


Oh, sure, but it's hard to attract students to residencies in family medicine because the average pay compared to other specialties is horrendously low, and that creates a problem with costly medical school loans. Increasing costs in malpractice premiums over the years have hit specialties like family medicine and pediatrics hard due to the fact that those areas aren't high paying to begin with. The fact is that becoming a primary care physician has been fairly unattractive for a number of years, and this isn't likely to improve that. Thankfully, we have doctors and other healthcare professionals in my family, so we can always get in through the back door in a pinch.
 
2013-09-24 12:18:25 PM  
Kit Fister: surrender903: The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured. Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else." Healthcare is not mutually exclusive. Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.

I didn't say that it did. My original point was that people don't go into the business of healthcare because it costs a lot and given the job description, not many people wnat to do the job, and that's their choice. The attitude that people should be made to is silly.

If we're going to make a change for the better, then we need to do a lot more than just force coverage for a bunch of people without fixing some of the underlying problems in the system in general:

1. Cost of education.
2. Cost of supplies, medications, and insurance
3. Ability of insurers to collude with hospitals and doctors to artificially set pricing.
4. Ability of insurers to collude with each other to artificially set pricing
5. Overhauling the patent system such that lifesaving medications cannot be artificially inflated or kept out of the hands of people who need it by companies making a profit
6. Overhauling the way medications get approved and how research is conducted to stop favoring pharma companies who research to make a profit, not to stop diseases.
7. Overhauling how people view health care in this country and the mechanisms that are there to provide it
8. Improving the overall health of the general populace to reduce the dependence on healthcare.

and so on and so on and so on.


1.  I agree, the cost of education is ridiculous.  Not just on the health care front, on all fronts.  This can be done in conjunction with the affordable care act.
2.  Supplies and medications are cheaper when you are insured.  They are expensive on private pay to cover the costs of the uninsured or under insured.  The cost of insurance on the federal marketplace is pretty cheap at the moment for inception periods to begin Jan 1 2014.  Will insurance costs go up?  Im sure they will, but i doubt they will drastically inflate the way some people are making it sounds.
3.  Insurers and hospitals collude to set pricing so that the hospital doesn't get dicked out and so the insurance company doesn't pay out a huge amount.  This is called a contract.  If you are trying to compare this to price fixing, you are incorrect.  This is called negotiating.
4.  I am unaware that this exists.  Most prices are based off medicare and medicaid rates which are cost based rates.  That's the starting point and that's the lowest negotiable rate a provider will usually accept.  This is where negotiations begin.
5.  I don't believe the pharmaceutical industry operates the way you believe it does.  Patents on medications don't last very long (10 years i think it was).  You may think 10 years is a long time, but all the stages of trials will take at least half of that, if not the majority of it, to put the drug to market.  They then have the remaining time to make enough money back to cover the R and D costs and the manufacturing costs.  Then they can start making a profit.  Once that patent runs out, any company can make that combination of drug without going through the startup costs.  Hence why generic drugs cost remarkably less.
6.  I'm not sure i understand the argument here.  What you've presented is a very left leaning argument.  A private company, in business to make a profit, is not going to produce items for the better of man kind.  The way to change this would be to make pharmaceuticals a government controlled entity, and entity of the people.  It seems counter intuitive to the argument you are presenting about the Affordable Care Act being a bad thing when you present an argument for a government controlled pharmaceutical industry.
7 and 8:  These are direct initiatives of the Affordable Care Act.
 
2013-09-24 12:20:28 PM  

RedTank: Kit Fister: I don't think we HAVE to progress forward equally, and that it's going to end up hurting us more than helping us.

No, we do for sure.  There are indirect costs associated with not progressing forward equally.  Psychological costs included.

If we can all progress equally then we either need to all take a step back or be willing to pay more.


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't subscribe to such a utopian view of society.
 
2013-09-24 12:21:36 PM  

jfivealive: 1. I agree, the cost of education is ridiculous. Not just on the health care front, on all fronts. This can be done in conjunction with the affordable care act.
2. Supplies and medications are cheaper when you are insured. They are expensive on private pay to cover the costs of the uninsured or under insured. The cost of insurance on the federal marketplace is pretty cheap at the moment for inception periods to begin Jan 1 2014. Will insurance costs go up? Im sure they will, but i doubt they will drastically inflate the way some people are making it sounds.
3. Insurers and hospitals collude to set pricing so that the hospital doesn't get dicked out and so the insurance company doesn't pay out a huge amount. This is called a contract. If you are trying to compare this to price fixing, you are incorrect. This is called negotiating.
4. I am unaware that this exists. Most prices are based off medicare and medicaid rates which are cost based rates. That's the starting point and that's the lowest negotiable rate a provider will usually accept. This is where negotiations begin.
5. I don't believe the pharmaceutical industry operates the way you believe it does. Patents on medications don't last very long (10 years i think it was). You may think 10 years is a long time, but all the stages of trials will take at least half of that, if not the majority of it, to put the drug to market. They then have the remaining time to make enough money back to cover the R and D costs and the manufacturing costs. Then they can start making a profit. Once that patent runs out, any company can make that combination of drug without going through the startup costs. Hence why generic drugs cost remarkably less.
6. I'm not sure i understand the argument here. What you've presented is a very left leaning argument. A private company, in business to make a profit, is not going to produce items for the better of man kind. The way to change this would be to make pharma ...


Well, I'll accept that and admit I learned something.
 
2013-09-24 12:24:02 PM  

doyner: Kit Fister: doyner: Kit Fister: No one does anything out of the good of their hearts.

Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.

So which country's system do you think works best?


It seems to me that the countries where universal healthcare is a reality also don't leave people in debt for pursuing higher education. British doctors don't generally graduate with a huge debt, nor do Swedish doctors...
 
2013-09-24 12:25:01 PM  

alkhemy: It seems to me that the countries where universal healthcare is a reality also don't leave people in debt for pursuing higher education. British doctors don't generally graduate with a huge debt, nor do Swedish doctors..


It's almost as if the entire system is based on an entirely different set of values and priorities, leading to radically different outcomes...
 
2013-09-24 12:26:48 PM  
Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.
 
2013-09-24 12:27:33 PM  
Hey, I hear there are a bunch of doctors coming back from war that need jobs and don't complain about feisty clientele.

Maybe we could give them the jobs that the other guys don't think they can handle?
 
2013-09-24 12:28:27 PM  

Nabb1: James!: Sounds like a good time to go to medical school.

Oh, sure, but it's hard to attract students to residencies in family medicine because the average pay compared to other specialties is horrendously low, and that creates a problem with costly medical school loans. Increasing costs in malpractice premiums over the years have hit specialties like family medicine and pediatrics hard due to the fact that those areas aren't high paying to begin with. The fact is that becoming a primary care physician has been fairly unattractive for a number of years, and this isn't likely to improve that. Thankfully, we have doctors and other healthcare professionals in my family, so we can always get in through the back door in a pinch.


"Backdoor doctor's 3: All in the Family Practice"
 
2013-09-24 12:30:04 PM  

Alphakronik: Hey, I hear there are a bunch of doctors coming back from war that need jobs and don't complain about feisty clientele.

Maybe we could give them the jobs that the other guys don't think they can handle?


For your sake, let's hope so. We know you couldn't handle it.
 
2013-09-24 12:36:24 PM  

doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.


The right to be healthy, and the right to act to improve your health is a basic human right. It is not a right to force a system or another person to care for me and expend their time, energy, and resources on making me healthy.

The right to learn and be educated also exists. That does not extend to forcing others to give up their time and resources to educate me.

As a society, we can argue that, for the good of everyone and the betterment of society, health care and education should be provided in a way that is easily accessed by its members and without financially overburdening the members such that they may more effectively contribute to society. However, this isn't a "right" per se, but more of a mutual agreement made between willing participants of society.

Where I think humanity fails is translating these notions of insular communal support into large-scale operations where the direct interactivity of persons is taken away somewhat from the every day life of its members. When the members stop feeling connected to society, or find themselves less willing to participate in society because society has embraced ideals and beliefs that are not shared by those members, they don't have an easy means of remedying the situation. They can't form their own new society, and having influence over the society they are a part of to make their own voices heard is nearly impossible.  This is where the fragmentation of society leads to a lethargical/disjointed "fark you I got mine" attitude, since there is literally no incentive or desire to contribute to support groups you have no connection with or reason to support -- they're not your tribe or community, and supporting them just takes away resources from your community.

That's not a bad thing, that's just the downside of large, monolithic societies, and why I believe we as a species are not designed to live in large groups like we do now.
 
2013-09-24 12:42:35 PM  

doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.


There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?
 
2013-09-24 12:45:30 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: Kit Fister: I don't think we HAVE to progress forward equally, and that it's going to end up hurting us more than helping us.

No, we do for sure.  There are indirect costs associated with not progressing forward equally.  Psychological costs included.

If we can all progress equally then we either need to all take a step back or be willing to pay more.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't subscribe to such a utopian view of society.


It's not about all people having all things and services available... It's about rich people being able to beat cancer or other diseases and poor people being unable to say the same as to no fault of their own.  Just because they happen to be a weak link doesn't make them less human.  It's about seemingly miraculous medical advances certain people get because "they are better" while others trying harder and being unable to attain that same healthcare because of their personal circumstances or shortcomings.  So, for me, we all suffer in this case in order to progress equally, hardly a Utopian society in my view.  The moral superiority from such a choice is the positive that comes from the suffering, it's the thing that allows us to be OK with a decision...  Religions do this all the time... It's how people end up being happy with being dirt poor.  How about we use that here?  I apply this thought to healthcare but not to everyone owning a house, being paid the same, or having a 70" 1080i plasma TV.  Those last bits are where capitalism comes into play.
 
2013-09-24 12:46:28 PM  
Isn't this a good thing?
 
2013-09-24 12:47:02 PM  

olddeegee: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?


It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.
 
2013-09-24 12:54:44 PM  

Nabb1: olddeegee: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.


Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide?  Why does that distinction matter in this case?  Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.
 
2013-09-24 01:02:09 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: HotWingConspiracy: This applies to the wealthy too. Sucks that you're so rich that you pay a different tax rate. Life ain't fair, boo hoo. Learn to deal with it.

You're twisting my words. I was saying life's unfair in it's randomness. It's not fair. The laws and such are supposed to be fair for the people etc. Not that they are a shining example of goodness right now, but ti's supposed to be for the betterment of society, blah blah blah.

Why should we up their taxes other than 'you have it, we're going to take it it's unfair'.

I'm ok with reality being chaotic. Making laws should be a bit more orderly.


Modern nations did away with your notions of fairness centuries ago as a survival imperative.
 
2013-09-24 01:08:43 PM  

King Something: Weaver95: Republican Jesus no doubt wants these people to crawl back in their holes and die quietly out of sight. Oh, and let's cut food stamps and give the rich another tax break, because why the f*ck not right?

Don't forget the lucrative contracts for the military hardware manufacturers!


You know that goes without saying!
 
2013-09-24 01:09:23 PM  

RedTank: Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide? Why does that distinction matter in this case? Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.


Quite simply, the distinction is important for the purposes of understanding limitation of responsibility. It is right to provide certain things to people, but it is not their right per se, and for that purpose they cannot demand more than society is capable of providing.

It is also important to distinguish this as there are very real legal connotations to "rights" that do not translate to "privileges".

It is right that I give as much as I can to help others. It is not their right to demand and take from me beyond my capacity to give.
 
2013-09-24 01:09:43 PM  

Nabb1: Alphakronik: Hey, I hear there are a bunch of doctors coming back from war that need jobs and don't complain about feisty clientele.

Maybe we could give them the jobs that the other guys don't think they can handle?

We know you couldn't handle it.


You're probably right.  Cause you know, I'm like, not a doctor and stuff.
 
2013-09-24 01:09:56 PM  

RedTank: Nabb1: olddeegee: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.

Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide?  Why does that distinction matter in this case?  Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.


There's a difference between rights and needs.
 
2013-09-24 01:10:54 PM  
Actually firing your staff and retiring early due to the threat of ACA implementation is rather common these days. If they aren't firing their staff and closing shop, they threaten to do so whenever ACA comes up.

Part of being well off and in power means not having to explain your actions when you intentionally hurt those around you in order to make a point about something. And they earned that right.


shaumah:
I don't know what the general concensus actually is, but from my personal tiny sample size, I haven't spoken with any doctors who are happy about the Affordable Care Act. My wife's OB/GYN recently retired early rather than try to keep his practice open once the policies go into effect.

While I fully agree that it would be wonderful to have healthcare for everyone, I'm just not sure the reality is feasible, because even if you have a fully funded program, you can't force people to become doctors/nurses.
 
2013-09-24 01:12:22 PM  
So... student loan forgiveness for doctors and nurse practitioners once they've worked 5 or so years in the field?
 
2013-09-24 01:14:31 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide? Why does that distinction matter in this case? Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.

Quite simply, the distinction is important for the purposes of understanding limitation of responsibility. It is right to provide certain things to people, but it is not their right per se, and for that purpose they cannot demand more than society is capable of providing.

It is also important to distinguish this as there are very real legal connotations to "rights" that do not translate to "privileges".

It is right that I give as much as I can to help others. It is not their right to demand and take from me beyond my capacity to give.


Fair enough, but morality should define those and it does not because there is no morality in capitalism because there is no morality in money.
 
2013-09-24 01:14:36 PM  

Protricity: Part of being well off and in power means not having to explain your actions


Nope.
 
2013-09-24 01:18:19 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: TelemonianAjax: Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.

You've never read real books, have you? May I recommend starting with John Rawls.

A cursory google search says 'american moral philosopher'.

Not really interested. More into moral relativity. That seems to be the main force behind the 'everyone deserves to have access to health related services; 'Other people dying and stuff is sad'. Life's tough. It sucks. Learn to deal with it.

Instead we have 'noooo everyone else has to be taken care of cuz equality'.

Damn normal people. They ruin everything nice.


You are wildly off base, as Rawls provides an explanation for welfare rights. Relativism actually has nothing to do with this conversation.

So, thanks for proving my point.
 
2013-09-24 01:19:24 PM  

RedTank: Fair enough, but morality should define those and it does not because there is no morality in capitalism because there is no morality in money.


And you confuse personal morality with societal values.  Your morality is not mine, nor much of society's.
 
2013-09-24 01:19:49 PM  
Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.
 
2013-09-24 01:22:15 PM  

mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.


On the flip side, as a nation, it's pretty damn shiatty to game the system so that people can't afford to purchase it. I don't agree that it must be *given* to people, but at least find a way to make it so most people can afford it. That way, they actually pay what they can and have access to it.

This is where I agree having a baseline program that one pays for as part of their taxes (medicare?), with supplemental insurance available if one wants more coverage.
 
2013-09-24 01:25:26 PM  

mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.


I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?
 
2013-09-24 01:26:46 PM  

Kit Fister: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

On the flip side, as a nation, it's pretty damn shiatty to game the system so that people can't afford to purchase it. I don't agree that it must be *given* to people, but at least find a way to make it so most people can afford it. That way, they actually pay what they can and have access to it.

This is where I agree having a baseline program that one pays for as part of their taxes (medicare?), with supplemental insurance available if one wants more coverage.


I partially agree but blame the government, Medicare, and cronyism for the high costs in the first place, so more government is not the answer in my estimation.
 
2013-09-24 01:27:11 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: Fair enough, but morality should define those and it does not because there is no morality in capitalism because there is no morality in money.

And you confuse personal morality with societal values.  Your morality is not mine, nor much of society's.


But we as a society should have common moral and ethical standards which include caring for the sick at whatever the cost.  I'm sorry your personal code doesn't include that but I guess you are also suggesting that I'm somehow a small minority and that all whom support universal healthcare are doing it solely for their own greed and selfishness?  Because that's what you would do in their position....?
 
2013-09-24 01:30:09 PM  

doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?


I'll grant you pre-existing conditions, but that could have been addressed without the full implementation of the leviathan that is Obamacare. But if you want a better job with better benefits, then pursue it. Again, nobody owes you a thing.
 
2013-09-24 01:31:36 PM  

doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?


Not to mention those lazy 5 year olds who aren't out working for their insurance.
 
2013-09-24 01:34:00 PM  
Is the government still paying medical schools not to produce doctors?

/Another brilliant Republican initiative
 
2013-09-24 01:36:18 PM  

dywed88: doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Not to mention those lazy 5 year olds who aren't out working for their insurance.


I work to insure my son, 3 years old, so he doesn't have to "work." If a parent is not taking care of their kid, them is the problem with healthcare or the parent?

I do think healthcare is staggeringly too expensive, but this law is increasing costs and killing jobs. That is a fact; it is only exacerbating the problem.
 
2013-09-24 01:41:09 PM  
But they said there weren't actually any people without health care. They promised.
 
2013-09-24 01:42:18 PM  

mwfark: killing jobs


This term is Luntz approved!
 
2013-09-24 01:42:33 PM  
Health care, the only business that can freely alienate customers due to complete control over the supply / demand ratio. Don't want to work as hard? Charge your few customers double without retribution.My brother in law is on gov health care. His wife had a kid, at a total cost out of pocket of $250. My wife had a kid few months later, under our above average BCBS plan. Our cost? $7500 out of pocket.
 
2013-09-24 01:43:39 PM  

mwfark: dywed88: doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Not to mention those lazy 5 year olds who aren't out working for their insurance.

I work to insure my son, 3 years old, so he doesn't have to "work." If a parent is not taking care of their kid, them is the problem with healthcare or the parent?

I do think healthcare is staggeringly too expensive, but this law is increasing costs and killing jobs. That is a fact; it is only exacerbating the problem.


So because someone has poor parents they don't deserve healthcare?

Yet there are at least as many studies saying that the ACA will decrease costs.

Single payer is the way to go, but politically infeasible. This is a half-assed step forward. As a different poster said, you don't put a bandaid on a severed limb, but if it slows the bleeding it is better than nothing.
 
2013-09-24 01:44:05 PM  

mwfark: dywed88: doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Not to mention those lazy 5 year olds who aren't out working for their insurance.

I work to insure my son, 3 years old, so he doesn't have to "work." If a parent is not taking care of their kid, them is the problem with healthcare or the parent?

I do think healthcare is staggeringly too expensive, but this law is increasing costs and killing jobs. That is a fact; it is only exacerbating the problem.


We will all pay for healthcare one way or another.  Either the government sets it themselves and we pay with jobs, higher taxes, and lower quality.  Or we have high quality highly expensive healthcare available to a select sect of society because poor people don't pay their medical bills.

There are no other options, those are the two extreams and we either pick one or we combine them.  Either way someone pays.  So this whole notion of not wanting to pay for people in a universal healthcare system is moot because you will pay for them in a system where they are excluded and unable to pay their bills.
 
2013-09-24 01:44:34 PM  

mwfark: dywed88: doyner: mwfark: 
I do think healthcare is staggeringly too expensive, but this law is increasing costs and killing jobs. That is a fact; it is only exacerbating the problem.


Would you be for ACA if the opposite was true? that it wasn't too expensive, and there were no statistical inference that costs were increasing and jobs were being killed?
Plus all the stuff that is actually in the law that isn't being brought up here.

Honestly, ask yourself if you would.
 
2013-09-24 01:44:35 PM  
You're a bunch of evil communists.  Healthcare is only for those who can afford it.  Why are so many of you so un-American?
 
2013-09-24 01:54:23 PM  

TNel: Steve McQueen's Motorcycle:

I do.

Same here.

Good thing your employer is nice, I pay $100 a month for family coverage because my employer cares about it's people.  My wife's work wanted like $400 for single person and like $750 for family.


I'm paying about $800/month for AETNA HMO for my 48 year-old self, my wife, and my kids. My current company's a cheap-ass contractor mill and they suck real hard, but I can't buy my own health insurance outside of the Patriotic Homelander Employee-Provided model that's any cheaper. I've had to pass up good job opportunities because they didn't include health insurance or pay enough to make it worth my while to buy my own. No goddamn good.

I work with a late-20s single guy who pays about $100-$150/month, but then young, single, etc. I think he pays more for car insurance than I do.
 
2013-09-24 01:57:24 PM  

RedTank: But we as a society should have common moral and ethical standards which include caring for the sick at whatever the cost. I'm sorry your personal code doesn't include that but I guess you are also suggesting that I'm somehow a small minority and that all whom support universal healthcare are doing it solely for their own greed and selfishness? Because that's what you would do in their position....?


No, they do it for the right reasons. But one of the key things here is you suggest we should care for the sick whatever the cost. I agree, but there comes a point at which other conversations come up, like at what point you let the patient decide whether a quick and painless death is preferable to painful treatments that cost shiatloads of money that buy them an extra six months.

One of my reasons that I disagree with your morality is because it assumes a lot about what defines quality care. An example: I have an uncle who is alive, technically, but is locked in a completely paralyzed body. He can blink his eyes and wiggle his toes a bit. "Caring for the sick whatever the cost" got us to the point where we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep him alive in a hospital instead of the five minute decision to mercifully just allow him to go with a quick OD of morphine.

So, until we address some of the more fundamental issues the position of health care at all costs brings up in the morality of life and death and treatment, I'll question the motives and morality of how we approach healthcare entirely.  But that's not what we're discussing.
 
2013-09-24 02:03:28 PM  

AngryDragon: Quick!  Somebody expand the H1B pool!


Maybe an excessive tax on H1B's?
 
2013-09-24 02:05:22 PM  

Molavian: AngryDragon: Quick!  Somebody expand the H1B pool!

Maybe an excessive tax on H1B's?


I'm OK with this.
 
2013-09-24 02:10:00 PM  

CrazyCracka420: You're a bunch of evil communists.  Healthcare is only for those who can afford it.  Why are so many of you so un-American?


Oh shut up.
 
2013-09-24 02:10:04 PM  

RedTank: Nabb1: olddeegee: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.

Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide?  Why does that distinction matter in this case?  Seems like you're splitting hairs a bit and missing the point.


"Rights" are negative obligations - limitations on the power of the state in terms of what it can do to you or expect from you. They are not tangible things you are entitled to receive. We may all need food, shelter, medicine, etc., but these are not "rights." The fact that something is a "necessity" does not make it a right. The state is not obligated to provide you with anything tangible by virtue of your existence. It is, however, obligated to recognize your autonomy, self-determination, and freedom so long as your exercises of those do not inflict unwarranted harm on those around you. Helping people, although noble, laudable, and the hallmark of a civil society, are not "rights." Quality healthcare is a luxury afforded to us by virtue of living in an advanced society with a deep base of knowledge of science and medicine. That's it. People use the term "right" cheaply these days.
 
2013-09-24 02:13:57 PM  
Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?


So your "rights" are things you feel you should have.   You have made the word  vague and meaningless
 
2013-09-24 02:14:25 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: But we as a society should have common moral and ethical standards which include caring for the sick at whatever the cost. I'm sorry your personal code doesn't include that but I guess you are also suggesting that I'm somehow a small minority and that all whom support universal healthcare are doing it solely for their own greed and selfishness? Because that's what you would do in their position....?

No, they do it for the right reasons. But one of the key things here is you suggest we should care for the sick whatever the cost. I agree, but there comes a point at which other conversations come up, like at what point you let the patient decide whether a quick and painless death is preferable to painful treatments that cost shiatloads of money that buy them an extra six months.

One of my reasons that I disagree with your morality is because it assumes a lot about what defines quality care. An example: I have an uncle who is alive, technically, but is locked in a completely paralyzed body. He can blink his eyes and wiggle his toes a bit. "Caring for the sick whatever the cost" got us to the point where we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep him alive in a hospital instead of the five minute decision to mercifully just allow him to go with a quick OD of morphine.

So, until we address some of the more fundamental issues the position of health care at all costs brings up in the morality of life and death and treatment, I'll question the motives and morality of how we approach healthcare entirely.  But that's not what we're discussing.


I agree totally with this.  I think the discussion of the high costs of end of life treatment should be discussed and I have no moral issue with letting someone die whom wishes to die.  I would rather die than bankrupt my family, and I would refuse for them to make that decision for me out of their own selfishness to keep me alive.  But these situations are in the minority when compared to access to basic healthcare, which is what this conversation  (at least for me) is mainly about.  I do realize that those end of life costs are probably very high comparatively.  But I see a distinction between the two, it's an issue which will exists no matter who controls our healthcare.

My point is that I'm merely speaking to the ethics of letting people die whom do not wish to die.  The choice that has been taken away because they don't have the money.
 
2013-09-24 02:14:57 PM  

Nabb1: "Rights" are negative obligations - limitations on the power of the state in terms of what it can do to you or expect from you. They are not tangible things you are entitled to receive. We may all need food, shelter, medicine, etc., but these are not "rights." The fact that something is a "necessity" does not make it a right. The state is not obligated to provide you with anything tangible by virtue of your existence. It is, however, obligated to recognize your autonomy, self-determination, and freedom so long as your exercises of those do not inflict unwarranted harm on those around you. Helping people, although noble, laudable, and the hallmark of a civil society, are not "rights." Quality healthcare is a luxury afforded to us by virtue of living in an advanced society with a deep base of knowledge of science and medicine. That's it. People use the term "right" cheaply these days.


And lo, the clouds parted and the angels sang as a voice of reason rang forth...
 
2013-09-24 02:15:00 PM  

Kit Fister: CrazyCracka420: You're a bunch of evil communists.  Healthcare is only for those who can afford it.  Why are so many of you so un-American?

Oh shut up.


Well I tried.
 
2013-09-24 02:15:22 PM  

doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

So your "rights" are things you feel you should have.   You have made the word  vague and meaningless


What makes something a right in your opinion?
 
2013-09-24 02:17:39 PM  

Nabb1: "Rights" are negative obligations - limitations on the power of the state in terms of what it can do to you or expect from you. They are not tangible things you are entitled to receive. We may all need food, shelter, medicine, etc., but these are not "rights." The fact that something is a "necessity" does not make it a right. The state is not obligated to provide you with anything tangible by virtue of your existence. It is, however, obligated to recognize your autonomy, self-determination, and freedom so long as your exercises of those do not inflict unwarranted harm on those around you. Helping people, although noble, laudable, and the hallmark of a civil society, are not "rights." Quality healthcare is a luxury afforded to us by virtue of living in an advanced society with a deep base of knowledge of science and medicine. T ...


It's a moral and ethical responsibility for a society to provide for it's sick.  I could care less what you call it.
 
2013-09-24 02:20:29 PM  

doyner: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

So your "rights" are things you feel you should have.   You have made the word  vague and meaningless

What makes something a right in your opinion?


We don't have rights in this country.  They're not rights if they can be taken away.  They are privileges.
 
2013-09-24 02:21:24 PM  

RedTank: My point is that I'm merely speaking to the ethics of letting people die whom do not wish to die. The choice that has been taken away because they don't have the money.


I think that we as a society should provide whatever we can in a basic availability sense, so that the very basics of preventing illness and death in those that are afflicted are there and available cheaply. This is a common good thing that also serves to prevent the prevalence and spread of communicable diseases and helps improve the health of everyone as a whole (and that gets into a whole different discussion about our attitudes towards what makes us healthy, but I digress).

But, as you say, working with what is considered basic care and what is and isn't the benchmark of what people consider basic care to be is where we need to work on the benchmarks. Being treated for disease and getting basic checkups to give you a status report is a far cry from people that run to the doctor with every little ache, pain, and sniffle leading to overmedication.
 
2013-09-24 02:21:50 PM  

RedTank: Nabb1: "Rights" are negative obligations - limitations on the power of the state in terms of what it can do to you or expect from you. They are not tangible things you are entitled to receive. We may all need food, shelter, medicine, etc., but these are not "rights." The fact that something is a "necessity" does not make it a right. The state is not obligated to provide you with anything tangible by virtue of your existence. It is, however, obligated to recognize your autonomy, self-determination, and freedom so long as your exercises of those do not inflict unwarranted harm on those around you. Helping people, although noble, laudable, and the hallmark of a civil society, are not "rights." Quality healthcare is a luxury afforded to us by virtue of living in an advanced society with a deep base of knowledge of science and medicine. T ...

It's a moral and ethical responsibility for a society to provide for it's sick.  I could care less what you call it.


Words have meaning. Labeling something a "right" when debating this sort of issue is not insignificant, nor is it done without knowledge by many of those phrasing it that way. To call something a "right" implies to those people to whom you are trying to appeal for something that something to which they are entitled is being denied them by the state or by those who disagree. This is not an accident. It is by design that people attempt to frame the debate that way. Most reasonable people agree that it is right and good to help the most vulnerable in society. After that, it gets complicated. Trying to invoke the absolute, across the board entitlement conferred by a "right" is a very calculated choice of phrasing.
 
2013-09-24 02:23:11 PM  

Nabb1: RedTank: Nabb1: "Rights" are negative obligations - limitations on the power of the state in terms of what it can do to you or expect from you. They are not tangible things you are entitled to receive. We may all need food, shelter, medicine, etc., but these are not "rights." The fact that something is a "necessity" does not make it a right. The state is not obligated to provide you with anything tangible by virtue of your existence. It is, however, obligated to recognize your autonomy, self-determination, and freedom so long as your exercises of those do not inflict unwarranted harm on those around you. Helping people, although noble, laudable, and the hallmark of a civil society, are not "rights." Quality healthcare is a luxury afforded to us by virtue of living in an advanced society with a deep base of knowledge of science and medicine. T ...

It's a moral and ethical responsibility for a society to provide for it's sick.  I could care less what you call it.

Words have meaning. Labeling something a "right" when debating this sort of issue is not insignificant, nor is it done without knowledge by many of those phrasing it that way. To call something a "right" implies to those people to whom you are trying to appeal for something that something to which they are entitled is being denied them by the state or by those who disagree. This is not an accident. It is by design that people attempt to frame the debate that way. Most reasonable people agree that it is right and good to help the most vulnerable in society. After that, it gets complicated. Trying to invoke the absolute, across the board entitlement conferred by a "right" is a very calculated choice of phrasing.


Favorited.
 
2013-09-24 02:23:22 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: But we as a society should have common moral and ethical standards which include caring for the sick at whatever the cost. I'm sorry your personal code doesn't include that but I guess you are also suggesting that I'm somehow a small minority and that all whom support universal healthcare are doing it solely for their own greed and selfishness? Because that's what you would do in their position....?

No, they do it for the right reasons. But one of the key things here is you suggest we should care for the sick whatever the cost. I agree, but there comes a point at which other conversations come up, like at what point you let the patient decide whether a quick and painless death is preferable to painful treatments that cost shiatloads of money that buy them an extra six months.

One of my reasons that I disagree with your morality is because it assumes a lot about what defines quality care. An example: I have an uncle who is alive, technically, but is locked in a completely paralyzed body. He can blink his eyes and wiggle his toes a bit. "Caring for the sick whatever the cost" got us to the point where we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep him alive in a hospital instead of the five minute decision to mercifully just allow him to go with a quick OD of morphine.

So, until we address some of the more fundamental issues the position of health care at all costs brings up in the morality of life and death and treatment, I'll question the motives and morality of how we approach healthcare entirely.  But that's not what we're discussing.


I would argue that proper care includes following the patient's wishes with regards to end of life. The only stipulation I would make is that only the individual can demand active steps be taken to end their life (either through a living will or directly). No PoA should cover that, they should only allow for refusal of actions to extend life.

But you are talking about a separate issue. That should be discussed and taken care of separately.
 
2013-09-24 02:23:58 PM  

CrazyCracka420: doyner: doubled99: Necessary medical care is a basic human right.

Quite obviously and demonstrably it is not.

There is a segment of our population that will never understand that medical care is a right. Our society will soon hit a time when we must re-evaluate what is subject to capitalism. Necessities shouldn't be. Capitalism is awesome, but tying it to things that you need simply to live is barbaric. Obviously, you also have those who will fight this. I mean, what fun is it to be rich, unless there are poor people?

So your "rights" are things you feel you should have.   You have made the word  vague and meaningless

What makes something a right in your opinion?

We don't have rights in this country.  They're not rights if they can be taken away.  They are privileges.


Such is the authoritarian mindset. Our government was born out of the philosophy that the state is of limited, not unlimited, power and such power can only come from the consent of the governed. Hence, our notion of "rights" as evidenced by the Bill of Rights, which expressly states that the list of rights contained in it is not exhaustive, and any powers not expressly granted are reserved to the states and the people.
 
2013-09-24 02:25:35 PM  

Nabb1: It's a moral and ethical responsibility for a society to provide for it's sick.  I could care less what you call it.

Words have meaning. Labeling something a "right" when debating this sort of issue is not insignificant, nor is it done without knowledge by many of those phrasing it that way. To call something a "right" implies to those people to whom you are trying to appeal for something that something to which they are entitled is being denied them by the state or by those who disagree. This is not an accident. It is by design that people attempt to frame the debate that way. Most reasonable people agree that it is right and good to help the most vulnerable in society. After that, it gets complicated. Trying to invoke the absolute, across the board entitlement conferred by a "right" is a very calculated choice of phrasing.


That's all good and well.  I don't personally refer to healthcare as a right but I do refer to it as a responsibility and a burden we must all share.  Meaning I'm not interested in discussing the legality of terms and applications rather I'm more interested in people caring for each other and not hiding behind the walls of words on either side.
 
2013-09-24 02:27:47 PM  

RedTank: That's all good and well. I don't personally refer to healthcare as a right but I do refer to it as a responsibility and a burden we must all share. Meaning I'm not interested in discussing the legality of terms and applications rather I'm more interested in people caring for each other and not hiding behind the walls of words on either side.


Unfortunately, most have neither the time nor the interest in caring for others outside of their own tribal associations.
 
2013-09-24 02:28:33 PM  
I have had lifelong health issues, totally unrelated to my or my parents behavior or financial status, among other things I am a cancer survivor.  I am 46, college educated and fully employed all  my adult life, I cannot participate in any company plan due to my condiditions, I spend $1500 a month for my , my wife and my 2 year olds health care.  I believe in personal responsibility, I also believe that everyone has a right to health care (it is in the constitution, it's called equal protection under the law").  Instead of arguing over whether this law sucks (it does in my opinion, although I fully support it because it is the best we have right now) we should be fixing our nations attitudes toward civil discussion of government, letting two parties prevent each other from coming up with a good solution and settling for the pathetic best compromise is ridiculous.
 
2013-09-24 02:34:04 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.


As compared to having to much Apathy like you farkers? Ill take too much empathy anytime.
WTF is wrong with conservatives? Are they all psychopaths?
 
2013-09-24 02:34:10 PM  

Kit Fister: I think that we as a society should provide whatever we can in a basic availability sense, so that the very basics of preventing illness and death in those that are afflicted are there and available cheaply. This is a common good thing that also serves to prevent the prevalence and spread of communicable diseases and helps improve the health of everyone as a whole (and that gets into a whole different discussion about our attitudes towards what makes us healthy, but I digress).

But, as you say, working with what is considered basic care and what is and isn't the benchmark of what people consider basic care to be is where we need to work on the benchmarks. Being treated for disease and getting basic checkups to give you a status report is a far cry from people that run to the doctor with every little ache, pain, and sniffle leading to overmedication.


I can agree to that assessment overall...  But again personally I'd rather payer higher taxes with a minority (even majority in some cases) percentage of that going to people whom abuse the system rather than live in a country that refuses to help the sick because they are afraid of the overhead costs of abuse.
 
2013-09-24 02:37:14 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: That's all good and well. I don't personally refer to healthcare as a right but I do refer to it as a responsibility and a burden we must all share. Meaning I'm not interested in discussing the legality of terms and applications rather I'm more interested in people caring for each other and not hiding behind the walls of words on either side.

Unfortunately, most have neither the time nor the interest in caring for others outside of their own tribal associations.


Right, which is why faith in humanity in the best course of action against that.  Humanism... rising above those petty narrow minded associations.
 
2013-09-24 02:37:51 PM  
When I start to see doctors driving around in rusted out Pintos, then I'll worry. Until then, STFU, GBTW and work a full day on Fridays doc.
 
2013-09-24 02:41:58 PM  

RedTank: Right, which is why faith in humanity in the best course of action against that. Humanism... rising above those petty narrow minded associations.


I'm afraid, in that, I'll disagree with you because I will fight for the people I know and care about before anyone else. It's always going to be that way.
 
2013-09-24 02:43:06 PM  
. "The shortfall of primary-care access is not an insignificant problem

Can't you just say "The shortfall of primary-care access is a significant problem "?

Wouldn't that be easier Mr Doublenegatives?
 
2013-09-24 02:44:27 PM  

Kit Fister: RedTank: Right, which is why faith in humanity in the best course of action against that. Humanism... rising above those petty narrow minded associations.

I'm afraid, in that, I'll disagree with you because I will fight for the people I know and care about before anyone else. It's always going to be that way.


And that's fine - I am the same, but I just want to strive to be better.
 
2013-09-24 02:49:10 PM  
All we have to do is make every illegal immigrant a citzen, and allow them to use the healing beds.
assets.nydailynews.com
How hard is that?
 
2013-09-24 02:49:29 PM  

MythDragon: . "The shortfall of primary-care access is not an insignificant problem

Can't you just say "The shortfall of primary-care access is a significant problem "?

Wouldn't that be easier Mr Doublenegatives?


but he sounds more erudite by using double negatives.
 
2013-09-24 02:57:11 PM  
1. People still can't afford to go after paying thousands for coverage.

2. Tons of money is still being wasted going thru insurance middlemen, as usual.

3. The system is already overloaded. There needs to be more support staff trained and available to handle increased workload, but corporations are still in "understaffing orgasm mode". (When I'm dead I'm going to kick the inventor of understaffing in the privates for driving real customer service straight into the toilet.)

4. Has anyone pointed out all the doctors who have said they are quitting the profession due to the cuts in payments?
 
2013-09-24 02:57:56 PM  

Kit Fister: MythDragon: . "The shortfall of primary-care access is not an insignificant problem

Can't you just say "The shortfall of primary-care access is a significant problem "?

Wouldn't that be easier Mr Doublenegatives?

but he sounds more erudite by using double negatives.


Well, he certianly doesn't NOT sound less erudite for not using double negatives.
 
2013-09-24 03:18:07 PM  

Highroller48: Kit Fister: MythDragon: . "The shortfall of primary-care access is not an insignificant problem

Can't you just say "The shortfall of primary-care access is a significant problem "?

Wouldn't that be easier Mr Doublenegatives?

but he sounds more erudite by using double negatives.

Well, he certianly doesn't NOT sound less erudite for not using double negatives.


I just don't think it's a very cromulent way of doing things.
 
2013-09-24 04:01:27 PM  

Pharmdawg: 4. Has anyone pointed out all the doctors who have said they are quitting the profession due to the cuts in payments?


Probably roughly the same percentage as the voters who leave the country when their presidential candidate loses.

Disclaimer - I'm a surgical resident, got less than 2 years until I'm done

That said, here's a little anecdote about how broken the healthcare system is. Some time back my wife swore that our infant son had swallowed a couple of dimes. After not finding any loose change in his poop, she got a bit more panicked, and I agreed that we should get an x-ray. Now, I work as a doctor in the largest hospital in the state - it is also a state institution. I've got health insurance for myself and my two children through this hospital (my wife works elsewhere and has her own plan through that job), and I do not skimp on our coverage. I consider our situation to be above the norm in terms of access to healthcare, and I'm aware that we're lucky. However, we hadn't come anywhere near our deductible of $1000. Yes, I know I could lower the damn thing, but generally that us costs more than it would save. Should I have 1000 bucks for stuff like this? Absolutely, and I did; this kind of shiat is the reason you put money aside. Again though, I'm aware that many people don't have this.

So if a patient had walked in the door with this problem I'd have probably gotten an xray that day. Instead we waited awhile longer for him to pass the coins as he was feeling fine, and no one had actually seen him swallow them. Eventually I got him imaged, off the books with a friend/colleague at the hospital, and there were no coins to be seen, but the point is this: I am more apt to provide healthcare for people without insurance and without the ability to pay back a single cent than I am to my own family while working as a doctor for the same hospital. This can't be right! We treat people who eat themselves to death, people who shoot at the cops, people who get drunk and wreck into families. We treat them all at the academic hospital without any expectation or talk of reimbursement. I've seen outstanding bills into the seven figures on patients to whom we are currently providing even further care. Then when I need 2 minutes of exam time and one plain abdominal film, I balk at getting them immediately and then do it under the table. I can't imagine what it must be like if you don't know literally hundreds of other doctors that can lend a hand and don't have "good insurance."

As far as how to fix that shiat, I have no idea. I'm not ranting that our patients can't pay, I actually don't blame them.
 
2013-09-24 04:20:49 PM  
Whether or not healthcare is a right is irrelevant to this conversation. Emergency card has been determined to be a right in the US for some time. It makes no sense to not include preventative care also that will decrease overall cost in the long term? Agree?
 
2013-09-24 04:41:25 PM  

cards fan by association: Whether or not healthcare is a right is irrelevant to this conversation. Emergency card has been determined to be a right in the US for some time. It makes no sense to not include preventative care also that will decrease overall cost in the long term? Agree?


Yes that's the pragmatic logic that I don't think anyone can really argue with.  Either we pay for their preventative care, or we pay more for their emergency care.

Solutions to these problems are varied however.  I personally believe having insurance just drives up costs (having a middle man always does, it's a no brainer).  But health care costs themselves are down right ridiculous and over priced.
 
2013-09-24 04:53:12 PM  
Wow.  Six pages of argument over something that has already been decided.  Enjoy stewing in your own bile, righties.

purple kool-aid and a jigger of formaldehyde: Capo Del Bandito: Highroller48: The notion that ability to pay should ever impact necessary medical care in any way is laughably stupid. Necessary medical care is a basic human right. Unless you're conservative, in which case the only truly inalienable human right is to make as much money as you can off, of whomever you can, for as long as you can, by whatever means you can, because FREEDOM!

I never understood your kind. Too much compassion or empathy or something. The idea that anyone has a 'right' to any sort of extension on their life, or to be 'well' is laughable.

As compared to having to much Apathy like you farkers? Ill take too much empathy anytime.
WTF is wrong with conservatives? Are they all psychopaths?


I assume that's a rhetorical question...
 
2013-09-24 04:53:43 PM  

mwfark: doyner: mwfark: Nobody owes you healthcare. Act like a grown-up and take care of yourself.

I know, right?  Part of taking care of yourself is not having a childhood illness that is deemed a pre-existing condition.  Another part is not having your insurance recinded.  Another part is having a job that allows you to afford insurance...  It's so obvious!  Why is this so hard for people to understand?

I'll grant you pre-existing conditions, but that could have been addressed without the full implementation of the leviathan that is Obamacare. But if you want a better job with better benefits, then pursue it. Again, nobody owes you a thing.


I bet dollars to donuts that you've gotten plenty of help in your life.  You sure as fark wouldn't be here posting on the internet if you didn't enjoy the trappings of our society.

How about you grow up and learn that life isn't black and white, you aren't always right, and shiat happens?
 
2013-09-24 04:56:46 PM  

netcentric: Y2K was supposed to be gnarly too.


Not to mention banning Freon-12
 
2013-09-24 05:28:19 PM  

doyner: This text is now purple: doyner: Doctors who do it out of the good of their hearts are few and far between. Most of them get into the job for the pay. And again, with the cost of education, it's not worth it for most people.

So which country's system do you think works best?

Works best for what?

Maximizing public health while minimizing individual cost. (I know, I know, that's crazy talk, but work with me here.)


Germany, circa 1943?
 
2013-09-24 05:32:48 PM  

The more you eat the more you fart: How do you think the doctor becomes aware of that abnormal lab result? Because nurses like your wife get the report, sees the result, and flags it for the doctor to see. Shes just as knowledgeable about the various lab test results as any physician and thats a FACT.

I depend on the lpn's working under me and trust their expertise implicitly


The skill of a medical practitioner is often directly proportional to how much they admit they don't know.

Thus, doctors think they are god; nurses think they are better than god.
 
2013-09-24 05:36:28 PM  

surrender903: Kit Fister: surrender903: Kit Fister: Tigger: moral consequences

The thing is noone is asking to imposition YOU for others to be insured.   Noone is asking for you to "carry anyone else."  Healthcare is not mutually exclusive.  Its not as if me caring for those on medicaid disqualifies you because you have Personal Choice.



Who is Noone and why does he/she keep asking me these things?!
 
2013-09-24 05:36:37 PM  

RedTank: It's not a right. It's the product of someone else's labor. It's no more your right than the products of your labor are anyone else's right. We should provide things like food, shelter, clothing and medicine for those unable to provide for themselves because it is right to do so and betters us as a society, but nine of those things are rights.

Ok, so the distinction you are trying to make is that there are rights and then there are certain products that a society has the right to provide? Why does that distinction matter in this case?


Your right to bear arms does not obligate society to provide you with a gun.
 
2013-09-24 05:38:58 PM  

MythDragon: . "The shortfall of primary-care access is not an insignificant problem

Can't you just say "The shortfall of primary-care access is a significant problem "?

Wouldn't that be easier Mr Doublenegatives?


My enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend.
There is a connotative difference between a positive and a double-negative.
 
2013-09-24 07:03:33 PM  

Flab: Kit Fister: HotWingConspiracy: Isn't this a good problem to have?

No. When you have a massive increase in number of patients vs. doctors, you have two problems: 1. The wait time for care gets longer. 2. The amount of time the doctor has to spend with each patient to properly diagnose an issue decreases.

As a subset of item 2, you also increase the workload and the chance of mistaken diagnosis, improper prescription of medication, and unnecessary medical procedures that result in issues for patients.

I want people to have health care, but we need to also help get more doctors into the system to offset the increased load.

I have an issue with your number 2.  Most doctors (even up here in our Great Frozen Socialist Paradise) already spend as little time as necessary with their patients because they can bill more patients that way.   So don't expect a big change in the way most doctors operate.


It's so easy to say that.  My current attending wanted to do the rainbow and butterfly method of only seeing 20 patients a day.  And he went bankrupt.  Now he works in this current practice and has to see patients back to back for 5 minute appointments, and he hates it.  But, at least he has a job again.  This is also how my Mom lost her job.  The doctor hadn't received a paycheck in months just trying to keep the business afloat, which ultimately didn't work out.  We can have the "fark them, they're doctors!" attitude but it affected all the other employees.  I'd love to spend 30 minutes with my patients.  Believe it or not, some of us actually are in this for the right reason.  But from what I've seen in the real world, it's not feasible unfortunately.  Things are a lot different than what people assume.  I'm leaving school with over a quarter of a million in debt.  I can assure you, I won't be swimming in money when I practice.
 
2013-09-24 07:22:04 PM  

ManRay: doyner: OK. And? Won't the Free MarketTM adjust to the new demand for supply?

The Free Market is pushing smart motivated people into other more lucrative professions. Why spend all that time going to school to work for the government when you can become a lawyer or work in finance and make much more money?


I have really bad news for anyone who thinks that in today's market they can become a lawyer and make a lot of money. There is a huge glut of lawyers. I can hire people who have their J.D. and passed the bar already for $10/hr internships. Unless you are in the top 3% of your law school class, and you are going to a top law school, you're farked if you are becoming a lawyer now.
 
2013-09-24 09:33:01 PM  
So demand is going to go up?  Which, according to free market principles, means prices will go up. Which, according to free market principles means, doctors will make lots of profit. Thanks Obama.
 
hej
2013-09-24 09:48:21 PM  
TNel:You can not get healthcare for $150 a month in the wild without REALLY good employer contribution.  Stop lying.

For just an individual? Blue Cross Blue Shield will sell you their middle of the road insurance policy for that much w/o an employer.
 
2013-09-24 10:12:35 PM  
Boo-farking-hoo.
 
2013-09-24 10:14:30 PM  
lovefirststool: Because, speaking as a physician,

no, you're not.
 
2013-09-24 10:38:10 PM  

nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: randomjsa: I know things like "reality" are really hard for some of you to accept but the consequences of saying "screw the reality, we're moving forward no matter what" are going to be pretty significant.

What you think "is fair" and what "will actually give the best results" are not always the same thing.

Okay. Educate me.  What will actually give the best results?


Wir müssen damit die ungeeignet und die Untermenschen zu schnell sterben, dass sie nicht weiterhin unseren Völkern reine Blutlinie besudeln.
 
2013-09-24 10:48:37 PM  

ultraholland: lovefirststool: Because, speaking as a physician,

no, you're not.


I'd be interested to know how you know he isn't. Since he hasn't posted his medical license or any proof, obviously, we could say he's not, but right now, he's basically Schroedinger's Doctor. He both is and is not an MD since we have not directly observed his license.
 
2013-09-24 11:25:46 PM  
Aren't there still going to be sky high co-pays and deductibles? I'm sure that will prevent some of these poor people from treating their chronic conditions, and we'll all be saved.
 
2013-09-25 04:11:44 AM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Aren't there still going to be sky high co-pays and deductibles? I'm sure that will prevent some of these poor people from treating their chronic conditions, and we'll all be saved.


A lot of these poor people without insurance are healthy younger people, most of them never go to a doctor. And having jacked them for some cash for health insurance, they still won't. The sick ones already see doctors because they are on medicare.

Off hand I tend to think a lot of the screeching is from large corporations and insurance companies that administer employer based plans. They are the ones that tend to lose out because of Obamacare.

For instance it you know you can get reasonably priced insurance, then you can switch jobs easier. Large corps dislike that if they provide health insurance. Large corps that don't provide health insurance, know that states like California are going to jack them for cash to pay for subsidies.

The employer health plan administrators dislike Obamacare because the insurance companies that provide personal insurance will steal some of their business. Good money to be made insuring healthy working age people and the personal insurance providers want a piece of it.
 
2013-09-25 06:52:55 AM  

Kit Fister: ultraholland: lovefirststool: Because, speaking as a physician,

no, you're not.

I'd be interested to know how you know he isn't. Since he hasn't posted his medical license or any proof, obviously, we could say he's not, but right now, he's basically Schroedinger's Doctor. He both is and is not an MD since we have not directly observed his license.


I think he might be saying I'm not saying something a physician SHOULD say as a person in a profession built on altruism. But I only speak as one physician, not all physicians.

I have found that Fark is typically left leaning, and as a pediatric doctor, so am I. The access to care of many of my patients depends on many of the programs that republicans vilify - As does their access to education, food and a host of other things. The reason I take care of kids in the first place is, yeah, I see little common sense in the decisions of adults and have no interest in colluding in their bad decision making.

When I say working towards being a physician is not worth it, I meant it. There are MANY other careers where one can exercise their altruism and have a fufilled and balanced life. Half my work day is not spent seeing patients but doing paperwork. The necessary charting to satisfy billing requirements set by insurance companies and detailed enough to placate attorneys takes a long time. The constant of being told 'no' by payors and having to appeal. The expectation of parents that you will answer the most minute question at 3AM. Is it worth the square one debt? Is it worth the loss of time with my kids? The default is that we make so much money, and relative to the average, we do. It's not what one might think, but that's a different biatch post. But is all of that worth it? I say no. And I share that with young optimistic people looking for a path. Life is more than what you choose to do for a living and no one cares about the initials behind your name anymore.
 
2013-09-25 12:53:54 PM  
So we're going to need more doctors? That sounds suspiciously like Job Creation!
 
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