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(Kotaku)   "Last week my store sold over a thousand copies of GTA V, at least a hundred of which were sold to parents for children who could barely even see over my counter." WTF is wrong with you parents??   (kotaku.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, GTA V, Grand Theft Auto, ESRB, counters, parents  
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3037 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Sep 2013 at 5:24 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-23 10:03:00 PM  

meanmutton: Carth: Shedim: We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.

Yea, that is illegal in the US since video games have first amendment protection. A store can decide not to sell to minors, or anyone else, but the state can't fine them if they do.

That's not even remotely true.


It is according to Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association. SCOTUS struck down a California law that tried to ban stores from selling M rated games to children without parental approval and would fine stores if they did.
 
2013-09-23 10:04:44 PM  

meanmutton: Carth: Shedim: We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.

Yea, that is illegal in the US since video games have first amendment protection. A store can decide not to sell to minors, or anyone else, but the state can't fine them if they do.

That's not even remotely true.


Yeah I was going to say it's illegal to sell pornography to children. Hell their was a case about six years ago where a comic book shop owner sold an adult age undercover cop a comic, that contained adult themes and nudity; he was ticketed and fined for distribution of pornography to a minor. I remember reading it on the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund newsletter.

I doubt video games have any more legal leeway then comic books. And from what I know of the GTA series and what I've heard of 5 (still haven't played it). I know there got to be enough nudity and themes to qualify it as pornography.

Which means if kids are taking their copies of the game to school, the school would probably be in it's rights to confiscate it as pornography.
 
2013-09-23 10:08:31 PM  

tjsands1118: meanmutton: Carth: Shedim: We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.

Yea, that is illegal in the US since video games have first amendment protection. A store can decide not to sell to minors, or anyone else, but the state can't fine them if they do.

That's not even remotely true.

Yeah I was going to say it's illegal to sell pornography to children. Hell their was a case about six years ago where a comic book shop owner sold an adult age undercover cop a comic, that contained adult themes and nudity; he was ticketed and fined for distribution of pornography to a minor. I remember reading it on the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund newsletter.

I doubt video games have any more legal leeway then comic books. And from what I know of the GTA series and what I've heard of 5 (still haven't played it). I know there got to be enough nudity and themes to qualify it as pornography.

Which means if kids are taking their copies of the game to school, the school would probably be in it's rights to confiscate it as pornography.


Here is the wiki page to the SCOTUS case.
 
rpm
2013-09-23 10:38:32 PM  

Somaticasual: rpm: Somaticasual: There comes a point where social responsibility needs to trump individualism for the good of the future generation. Can you, in 100% intellectual honesty, say it's a good thing for kids?

Can you, in 100% intellectual honesty say it's a bad thing for kids?

The question was posed to you first- i've stated my opinion quite clearly. Or, is that a diversion because you know you're just spouting an unpopular opinion to get attention?


If you can't support your premise, it has no reason to be in law.

Or do you support regulation of everything that can cause aggression in children?
 
2013-09-23 10:42:58 PM  

Carth: meanmutton: Carth: Shedim: We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.

Yea, that is illegal in the US since video games have first amendment protection. A store can decide not to sell to minors, or anyone else, but the state can't fine them if they do.

That's not even remotely true.

It is according to Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association. SCOTUS struck down a California law that tried to ban stores from selling M rated games to children without parental approval and would fine stores if they did.


That's not what that case said.   Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association simply holds that video games are protected speech like movies or magazines but it also mentions that Ginsberg v. New York applies to video games.  What it says is that you absolutely can restrict video games sold to minors but you can't have the broad ban that the State of California insisted on that included a ban on material that was neither obscene nor harmful.

You absolutely can prohibit the sale of, say, nudity or depictions of sex.  You just can't prohibit depictions of violence.
 
2013-09-23 10:57:31 PM  
I never understood why stores have these age policies at all.

It is illegal to sell cigs/beer to minors so carding people make sense.

It is not against the law to sell video games to minors so why would these stores bother denying sales to people with money.
 
2013-09-23 11:01:37 PM  

Fano: I bought GTA V from Target. I was not carded for the beer I was also buying, but the kid running the register asked to see my id for the game. I laughed in his face and asked whatever for. He then explained that it was M for mature and they had to prove I was of age to buy it. I handed over the card and snorted that I was going to walk outside and hand it to a 9 year old outside .


Wow, you sound really cool.
 
2013-09-23 11:02:34 PM  

Warlordtrooper: I never understood why stores have these age policies at all.

It is illegal to sell cigs/beer to minors so carding people make sense.

It is not against the law to sell video games to minors so why would these stores bother denying sales to people with money.


because the only reason its not illegal is because the industry has voluntarily agreed not to sell games to minors. if they started selling them, there is little doubt that they would get legislated and they would prefer to avoid that.
 
2013-09-23 11:17:46 PM  
reneau.smugmug.com
 
2013-09-23 11:21:23 PM  

meanmutton: FTFA: " if "all his friends" were to jump off a cliff...  "

[imgs.xkcd.com image 740x238]
img.fark.net


Yeah... this would be another reason I hate XKCD.
 
2013-09-23 11:21:55 PM  

rpm: Somaticasual: rpm: Somaticasual: There comes a point where social responsibility needs to trump individualism for the good of the future generation. Can you, in 100% intellectual honesty, say it's a good thing for kids?

Can you, in 100% intellectual honesty say it's a bad thing for kids?

The question was posed to you first- i've stated my opinion quite clearly. Or, is that a diversion because you know you're just spouting an unpopular opinion to get attention?

If you can't support your premise, it has no reason to be in law.

Or do you support regulation of everything that can cause aggression in children?


You still haven't answered my question, rpm.
Again - and with no mincing words, CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?

If you can't, you need to reconsider your position. And considering how much effort you're putting into your evasive responses, you're not coming off as someone that actually believes what they're saying honestly. My positions:

a) Kids are impressionable.

b) Yes, there quite a few things that should be regulated so that children don't have access to them.

c) psychologically, we're barely into adulthood when we turn 18. Most 18 year olds have way more bravado and hormones than actual life experience (with a few hard knocks exceptions).

d) This isn't doom or wolfenstein. It's easy to draw the line between reality when you're fighting a) on another planet, or b) an organization that essentially doesn't exist anymore. They were flat-sprite
games. it's a lot harder when it's a contemporary world, in a relatively "real" place, with numerous pathways for doing terrible things.

e) I use this non-sarcastically, but X-Box live. Tell me the video game isn't having an impact on aggression in teenagers after listening to that crap for more than a few minutes. you'll hear things kids would never even dream of saying to someone in real life, and it's not just the anonymity factor.

f) finally, even if you think something like street fighter is appropriate for kids (which the vast majority of the parents at the time didn't , along with mortal kombat) - GTA V is not. It has a lot more of what anyone not lying to themselves would call bad influences. It's just not appropriate at an age level where you can't see R movies either.

g) if the kid ISN'T going to be physically or psychologically harmed by withholding the video game, and there's any chance of that video game harming the child if played, then you side with risk management and deprive the kid of the game.

I get that you want more freedom and personal responsibility, but a lot of laws are there to mitigate very real downsides to things - video games included. And if the kid isn't goi
 
2013-09-23 11:26:45 PM  
reneau.smugmug.com
 
2013-09-23 11:38:56 PM  
Look, retail jockey, just sell the damn game and keep your opinions to yourself. Christ, everyone just has to nudge their way into everyone else's business these days. Are we so comfortable that we don't have to worry about ourselves anymore? Do people just go out looking for something to outrage about this month?
 
2013-09-23 11:40:05 PM  
Once again, this time with *feeling*...

reneau.smugmug.com
 
2013-09-23 11:46:46 PM  

quantum_jellyroll: reneau.smugmug.com


I wonder how you would explain to this kid that he is now a "meme" on the "internet".
 
2013-09-23 11:51:14 PM  

James!: Probably not giving the kid enough milk.


A nice glass of milk is the perfect beverage before going out for a night of the "old ultra-violence" with the lads.

theeradicatorreviews.com
 
2013-09-23 11:56:28 PM  

Mike_LowELL: I wonder how you would explain to this kid that he is now a "meme" on the "internet".


From a good distance..
 
2013-09-24 12:01:55 AM  

Mad-Hamlet: brantgoose: Of course, half of them also received handguns as baby shower presents along with silver spoon sets and piggy banks.

The First Law of American Parenting: What Baby wants, Baby gets.
The Second Law: Love me, love my child.
The Third Law: Everyone must find my child as fascinating as I do.

Rule Zero: You don't have a god damn clue what you're talking about.


It certainly fits the parents I know.
 
2013-09-24 12:03:21 AM  
Somaticasual: ...Again - and with no mincing words, CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?

If you can't, you need to reconsider your position. And considering how much effort you're putting into your evasive responses, you're not coming off as someone that actually believes what they're saying honestly. My positions...


You know, blanket positions like this are part of the problem.

I was six when  Predator came out, and my dad took me to the theater to see it because I thought  Aliens was the god damn greatest work of art ever made, or would ever be made, by man.  It was god damn awesome. And, the entire time other adults and various folks who worked at the theater was giving my dad the shiat-eye for taking a six-year-old kid to see an R-rated movie that was already known for its scariness and gore.

They didn't know me. My dad knew me, and understood that for my development level at that age I was totally capable of handling and enjoying the shiat out of that movie. I knew the difference between reality and fantasy, and what things I saw on TV were okay to emulate and which ones weren't. That's what we call "parenting".

Now, when someone is obviously a shiatty parent, such as neglectfully buying a kid a super-graphic and super-violent video game without idea one about their kid's ability to process that medium or the potential ramifications, it just might be a good idea to say something (even if that will prove ineffectual). But, that's obviously not a problem with either the video game or the kid -- responsibility for that lands squarely on the head of the parent. Beyond that, a third party does not necessarily know that kid, their development level, or their ability to handle that kind of media.

Full disclosure, I can't imagine a kid that would really be able to handle the crap in GTAV I've seen (haven't played it personally, yet), at six or seven I wouldn't have but at thirteen or fourteen definitely, but knowing how ahead of the curve I was at that age I'm not going to make a blanket statement one way or the other. Telling other parents what media is good or bad for  their kids is no bueno, but telling parents to get to know their own kids and decide for them what media is best is.
 
2013-09-24 12:18:55 AM  

that bosnian sniper: Somaticasual: ...Again - and with no mincing words, CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?

If you can't, you need to reconsider your position. And considering how much effort you're putting into your evasive responses, you're not coming off as someone that actually believes what they're saying honestly. My positions...

You know, blanket positions like this are part of the problem.

I was six when  Predator came out, and my dad took me to the theater to see it because I thought  Aliens was the god damn greatest work of art ever made, or would ever be made, by man.  It was god damn awesome. And, the entire time other adults and various folks who worked at the theater was giving my dad the shiat-eye for taking a six-year-old kid to see an R-rated movie that was already known for its scariness and gore.

They didn't know me. My dad knew me, and understood that for my development level at that age I was totally capable of handling and enjoying the shiat out of that movie. I knew the difference between reality and fantasy, and what things I saw on TV were okay to emulate and which ones weren't. That's what we call "parenting".

Now, when someone is obviously a shiatty parent, such as neglectfully buying a kid a super-graphic and super-violent video game without idea one about their kid's ability to process that medium or the potential ramifications, it just might be a good idea to say something (even if that will prove ineffectual). But, that's obviously not a problem with either the video game or the kid -- responsibility for that lands squarely on the head of the parent. Beyond that, a third party does not necessarily know that kid, their development level, or their ability to handle that kind of media.

Full disclosure, I can't imagine a kid that would really be able to handle the crap in GTAV I've seen (haven't played it personally, yet), at six or seven I wouldn't have but at thirteen or fourteen definitely, but ...


Don't get me wrong - as a kid, i would have wanted to play it.
But the problem with the blanket thing is that the laws and regulations aren't written with the kids that can handle it in mind - they're written for the small fraction that's going to go out and do something stupid while imitating it.  I'm advocating a mixture of simply shaming the parents, and trying to prevent kids from getting it themselves at the very least - which is pretty much the current approach. I just don't agree with rpm's opinion that there shouldn't be any restrictions whatsoever.
 
2013-09-24 12:28:38 AM  

Electrify: Fano: I bought GTA V from Target. I was not carded for the beer I was also buying, but the kid running the register asked to see my id for the game. I laughed in his face and asked whatever for. He then explained that it was M for mature and they had to prove I was of age to buy it. I handed over the card and snorted that I was going to walk outside and hand it to a 9 year old outside .

Wow, you sound really cool.


Eh, in your late 30s getting your time wasted by pimply teens who also give a super serial lecture isn't cool. Especially since, as I mentioned, he didn't card me for alcohol. I'm sure the ABC would be interested to know that.

When was the last time you were carded buying an "R" rated movie ticket?
 
2013-09-24 12:30:51 AM  
should've bought them saints row 4
 
2013-09-24 12:54:41 AM  
Somaticasual: ...But the problem with the blanket thing is that the laws and regulations aren't written with the kids that can handle it in mind - they're written for the small fraction that's going to go out and do something stupid while imitating it...

The problem with this, is the problem  doesn't lie with the kids. They're kids, they're going to want grown-up and edgy stuff, for whatever reason kids are so wont to do, without necessarily understanding they may not be able to handle it. Responsibility for moderating what media kids are exposed to ultimately lies with the parents, and so do the repercussions for exposing kids to media they can't handle for their development level -- the kids are blameless in this.

Which means, ultimately, regulations and laws thus are really about shielding kids from shiatty parenting. That's a more endemic societal problem no one is going to fix by restricting games, no matter how good a scapegoat it may be.
 
2013-09-24 12:59:50 AM  

Somaticasual: Mike_LowELL: I wonder how you would explain to this kid that he is now a "meme" on the "internet".

From a good distance..


...and behind some large boulders.
 
2013-09-24 02:07:08 AM  

Mike_LowELL: quantum_jellyroll: reneau.smugmug.com

I wonder how you would explain to this kid that he is now a "meme" on the "internet".


Either he's already dead, or he'd kill and rob you before you could ask.
 
2013-09-24 04:02:50 AM  

that bosnian sniper: Somaticasual: ...But the problem with the blanket thing is that the laws and regulations aren't written with the kids that can handle it in mind - they're written for the small fraction that's going to go out and do something stupid while imitating it...

The problem with this, is the problem  doesn't lie with the kids. They're kids, they're going to want grown-up and edgy stuff, for whatever reason kids are so wont to do, without necessarily understanding they may not be able to handle it. Responsibility for moderating what media kids are exposed to ultimately lies with the parents, and so do the repercussions for exposing kids to media they can't handle for their development level -- the kids are blameless in this.

Which means, ultimately, regulations and laws thus are really about shielding kids from shiatty parenting. That's a more endemic societal problem no one is going to fix by restricting games, no matter how good a scapegoat it may be.


By that logic, though, kids are blameless for tobacco use. BUT, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything in our power to keep kids away from cigarettes either.

Until there's a better way to really address the issue (and make all kids perfect), then they still shouldn't play games like GTA V. It's not a scapegoat for anything, it's just an effort to keep the game out of their hands. There is no greater freedom grab involved
 
2013-09-24 05:34:33 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Also, does anyone else have a love/hate relationship with Trevor? He's gotta be the most disgusting, despicable, irredeemable piece of shiat to ever grace a video game, and yet I can't stop laughing at everything he says or does.


I actually have a theory that each character represents the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego.

Trevor: ID, pure animalistic urges
Micheal: SuperEgo, trying to be the moral center of his household, but fails
Franklin: The Ego, just trying to survive and make money
 
2013-09-24 06:41:53 AM  

Igor Jakovsky: Back in my day 2 Live Crew was the entertainment everyone was wringing their hands over.

I had some of their dubbed cassettes and Id have gotten smacked upside the head if my parents had listened to them

2 Live Crew...the original parental advisory.

Would not let my kid, if had one, play GTA V


Still got the 12 inch of that song somewhere :)
 
2013-09-24 08:11:28 AM  

meanmutton: Carth: meanmutton: Carth: Shedim: We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.

Yea, that is illegal in the US since video games have first amendment protection. A store can decide not to sell to minors, or anyone else, but the state can't fine them if they do.

That's not even remotely true.

It is according to Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association. SCOTUS struck down a California law that tried to ban stores from selling M rated games to children without parental approval and would fine stores if they did.

That's not what that case said.   Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association simply holds that video games are protected speech like movies or magazines but it also mentions that Ginsberg v. New York applies to video games.  What it says is that you absolutely can restrict video games sold to minors but you can't have the broad ban that the State of California insisted on that included a ban on material that was neither obscene nor harmful.

You absolutely can prohibit the sale of, say, nudity or depictions of sex.  You just can't prohibit depictions of violence.


My original point, that you disagreed with, was that it is currently illegal in all 50 states for the government to fine a store for selling video games to children (specifically games like GTA:V which are M rated. That is still true.

Ginsberg v. New York bans the sale of obscene materials  (of all mediums) which video games don't rise to the level of. The only games that could be considered obscene would require extreme sexual content  and be AO rated which aren't sold in retail stores, aren't able to run on xbox, playstation, or wiiU and still don't have laws in place banning their sale to minors. Since obscene games aren't sold in stores you won't see laws fining stores for selling them.
 
2013-09-24 08:15:48 AM  

Somaticasual: CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?


Can you say with 100% intellectual honesty that water is perfectly safe for children? BAN CHILDREN FROM BUYING WATER!!!!11111lol
 
2013-09-24 08:16:50 AM  

Mike_LowELL: quantum_jellyroll: reneau.smugmug.com

I wonder how you would explain to this kid that he is now a "meme" on the "internet".


I'd recommend via email or telephone.
 
2013-09-24 08:22:22 AM  

Fano: Electrify: Fano: I bought GTA V from Target. I was not carded for the beer I was also buying, but the kid running the register asked to see my id for the game. I laughed in his face and asked whatever for. He then explained that it was M for mature and they had to prove I was of age to buy it. I handed over the card and snorted that I was going to walk outside and hand it to a 9 year old outside .

Wow, you sound really cool.

Eh, in your late 30s getting your time wasted by pimply teens who also give a super serial lecture isn't cool. Especially since, as I mentioned, he didn't card me for alcohol. I'm sure the ABC would be interested to know that.

When was the last time you were carded buying an "R" rated movie ticket?


The kid has probably been told by his boss to card everyone who wants to buy it, young or old. I'll admit it is odd to not want the ID for the beer, but in the unlikely chance you are under 21 he probably wouldn't sell you the beer either.

Late 20s, and while I don't usually get carded for movies, I still regularly get asked for ID when buying alcohol. Takes me two seconds to do, and I don't make a big deal out of it. Since you are approaching midlife crisis territory, you should take being carded as a compliment.
 
2013-09-24 08:41:30 AM  

Electrify: Late 20s, and while I don't usually get carded for movies, I still regularly get asked for ID when buying alcohol. Takes me two seconds to do, and I don't make a big deal out of it. Since you are approaching midlife crisis territory, you should take being carded as a compliment.


Approaching 50 at a terrifying rate, and look it, and I routinely get carded at Target for alcohol. I believe it's their policy -- at least at my local store -- to card absolutely everybody simply to avoid issues or blown judgement calls. It's not like I'm giving up any personal information they don't already have from the fact that I paid with my store credit card.

Also bear in mind that to the "pimply teen" that Fano so condescendingly dismissed from the glorious heights of his late 30s "maturity", everybody over the age of about 20 looks old. The fact that he's working behind the till at Target for a few dollars an hour is also the reason you can afford to buy GTA V.

Bottom line, if I had to choose between a lecture from a teen who is working hard for a few bucks and putting up with pricks who "snort" at him for doing his job versus one from an overgrown bro who still plays video games going on 40, I know whose advice I'd value more.
 
rpm
2013-09-24 09:00:33 AM  

Somaticasual: You still haven't answered my question, rpm.
Again - and with no mincing words, CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?


No. Can you say with 100% intellectual honesty it's significant issues among significant numbers?

Bad parenting is far more impactful than video games. Do you support regulation of child bearing? If not, why not?

Religion has obviously done more damage to children than just about anything else. Do you support its regulation? If not, why not?

CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT ANYTHING IS PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?
 
2013-09-24 09:33:36 AM  
I know better than to get GTA5 for my 11 year old, but we're still Bad Parents - he's been playing Halo, Skyrim, and Call of Duty for the last two years.

At least when he shoots up a school in five years he'll be well-trained....
 
2013-09-24 10:56:54 AM  

czetie: Electrify: Late 20s, and while I don't usually get carded for movies, I still regularly get asked for ID when buying alcohol. Takes me two seconds to do, and I don't make a big deal out of it. Since you are approaching midlife crisis territory, you should take being carded as a compliment.

Approaching 50 at a terrifying rate, and look it, and I routinely get carded at Target for alcohol. I believe it's their policy -- at least at my local store -- to card absolutely everybody simply to avoid issues or blown judgement calls. It's not like I'm giving up any personal information they don't already have from the fact that I paid with my store credit card.

Also bear in mind that to the "pimply teen" that Fano so condescendingly dismissed from the glorious heights of his late 30s "maturity", everybody over the age of about 20 looks old. The fact that he's working behind the till at Target for a few dollars an hour is also the reason you can afford to buy GTA V.

Bottom line, if I had to choose between a lecture from a teen who is working hard for a few bucks and putting up with pricks who "snort" at him for doing his job versus one from an overgrown bro who still plays video games going on 40, I know whose advice I'd value more.


So you are agreeing that he would easily know that I'm older than 18? Look, I get that he was doing his job, but he bypassed the alcohol check by entering in a phony date and then asked me for ID for an 18+ product. I don't mind routine carding for beer and tobacco, but in this case it seemed about as stupid as being carded for any R-rated DVDs I might have purchased also.

And for as long as we've both been on Fark, you don't seem to know me at all.
 
2013-09-24 11:00:53 AM  
FTA: "Was it your son that came in with a giant jar filled with change to buy Minecraft? He was a couple dollars shy, but don't worry, I covered it. His look of excitement as he ran out of the store was more than enough to cover the shortfall. "

Of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most.

This article is sad bullshiat from someone that thinks his job is something more than taking money from people that hand it to him.
 
2013-09-24 11:01:07 AM  

Somaticasual: By that logic, though, kids are blameless for tobacco use. BUT, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything in our power to keep kids away from cigarettes either.


Nicotine, of course, being an addictive stimulant drug that's typically delivered through products that also contain several known carcinogens and other substances that are harmful to the human body. All of which proven in an experimental setting.

The only causative link between video games and violence in kids, is that exposure to violent content regardless of delivery method or media increases violent thoughts and actions in kids. That's a significant intervening variable, indicative of greater endemic problems in mass media than just video games. The other significant intervening variable is the one we've already been discussing, which is that negligent parents are more likely to allow their children exposure to other forms of violent media as well.

Correlation is not causation, and correlative evidence backed by tenuous links to a handful of studies that prove causation in  other intersections, is what the blanket argument against exposing kids to violent video games relies. All of which, of course, is entirely within the  psychological sphere opposed to the  physiological sphere, which has always boggled the mind due to the number of studies that show correlation between numerous physical health problems and immoderate video game playing -- of course, that applies to  all video games rather than merely the violent ones. None of which is cause to override parental privilege on a legal level, even if attempting to shield kids from shiatty parents is the ultimate goal.

And, you know what? Kids are going to smoke anyway. It's a "grown up" thing to do, and it's the forbidden, irresistable, fruit of things they're told to  not do. Kids don't care that it's illegal -- look at juvenile pot use, for god's sake, and pot is  healthier than tobacco even if it's less-legal. It falls back to the parents to explain the pitfalls and consequences of tobacco use, rather than simply and in an unqualified matter prohibit it and encourage its use, so that kids are inclined to understand exactly what it is they're doing and refuse of their own volition.

In other words,  teach kids to be rational, critically-thining, actors with senses of responsibility to themselves. You know, "parent".
 
2013-09-24 11:02:53 AM  

ReapTheChaos: "Lastly, when I try to describe the content and warnings of an M-rated game to you, please don't ignore me and nod while scrolling through your iPhone."

This is a good example of a douchenozzle who takes his minimum wage job way to seriously.


This.
 
2013-09-24 11:07:37 AM  

Shedim: ReapTheChaos: "Lastly, when I try to describe the content and warnings of an M-rated game to you, please don't ignore me and nod while scrolling through your iPhone."

This is a good example of a douchenozzle who takes his minimum wage job way to seriously.

Actually, it sounds like someone who wants to protect his job.

We sold GTA V at work, and in Australia it's rated R 18+. That makes it a legally restricted classification and we have to get proof of age if we suspect the person buying it is underage. People can get fined if they sell a game with a legally restricted classification to someone underage (companies and individuals), so to me this is just standard CYA procedure.



When I bought GTA 4 at target they asked me for my drivers license to make sure I'm over 18.  I chuckled and showed my ID as I don't even get carded anymore since my hair turned grey.
 
2013-09-24 11:31:38 AM  

shortymac: scottydoesntknow: Also, does anyone else have a love/hate relationship with Trevor? He's gotta be the most disgusting, despicable, irredeemable piece of shiat to ever grace a video game, and yet I can't stop laughing at everything he says or does.

I actually have a theory that each character represents the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego.

Trevor: ID, pure animalistic urges
Micheal: SuperEgo, trying to be the moral center of his household, but fails
Franklin: The Ego, just trying to survive and make money


Holy shiat, I was thinking exactly that last night as I played! Seriously, that's weird.
 
2013-09-24 11:50:51 AM  
ah Micheal. The closest I've been to actually being in a video game.

Not that old yet.
 
2013-09-24 11:51:55 AM  
That torture scene was one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever done in a video game. I didn't really enjoy that part of the game too much, felt kinda dirty afterwards.
 
2013-09-24 12:42:54 PM  
I don't put a lot of stock in the "violent video games are corrupting our kids" trope, but my brother, who is a father of three, said something interesting a month or so ago.  Apparently EVERYTHING that my nephew has is some type of gun or sword or other weapon.  Yeah, he's got a scooter, and some dump truck toys, but now that he's 5, my brother is seeing that all of his "age appropriate" toys are weapons of some form or another.  People want to blame the video games, but they're just the most visible item.  It's more the entire context of their lives.  It's all Avengers and cops and robbers with guns and knives.

That being said, how can you let your sub-15 year old play GTA V?  That's crazy.
 
2013-09-24 12:50:56 PM  

scottydoesntknow: shortymac: scottydoesntknow: Also, does anyone else have a love/hate relationship with Trevor? He's gotta be the most disgusting, despicable, irredeemable piece of shiat to ever grace a video game, and yet I can't stop laughing at everything he says or does.

I actually have a theory that each character represents the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego.

Trevor: ID, pure animalistic urges
Micheal: SuperEgo, trying to be the moral center of his household, but fails
Franklin: The Ego, just trying to survive and make money

Holy shiat, I was thinking exactly that last night as I played! Seriously, that's weird.


I think its on purpose. Im probably going to write an essay on it.
 
2013-09-24 01:04:29 PM  

zumer69: I teach in a school for kids who have behavior and emotional disorders, 98% of them live below the poverty line. The poverty line to which I am referring is $23,550/yr for a household of 4. These kids often don't have working utilities, enough food at home, and move from eviction to eviction. They cannot afford medication or clothing but guess how many of them had GTA V last week? Nearly all of them. Now many people could say "well they were just lying, they can't afford that" and I would agree but for some reason (showing off) when a kid gets a new video game they immediately bring it to school. It's not like we have consoles here. So I'd like to see a comparison of the per capita "silver spoon" kids vs. poor kids ownership once the buying frenzy dies down. Priorities are completely out of sorts for these "parents" of the poor kids.


I worked as an attorney representing young teens accused of crimes for several years. The number of my clients who owned mature themed games was through the roof, although in fairness to the parents about 50% of the time it was the "cool uncle" (on at least one occassion the cool uncle was also known as "the co-defendant") who made the purchase.

My favorite memory was of a kid with an open case who told me he played GTA (Vice City maybe? It was a long time ago...). He and his (clueless) mother both told me they didn't think it was a problem. In front of both of them I asked the kid to tell his mom how you replenished health. He started squirming, then eventually told her about the street hookers. She was pretty stunned.

/I don't begrudge a working class parent getting their kid a game console. I do begrudge any parent who completely checks out on the entertainment media their child is consuming.
//From a legal perspective that conversation was necessary - if he was convicted there would be a home study. If that report showed the mother had that level of ignorance about what her kid was doing with his days when not outside committing crimes it could have been used by the prosecution to show that she could not be trusted to monitor his conduct, and that his sentence should not be home based.
 
2013-09-24 01:13:04 PM  

Fano: FTA: "Was it your son that came in with a giant jar filled with change to buy Minecraft? He was a couple dollars shy, but don't worry, I covered it. His look of excitement as he ran out of the store was more than enough to cover the shortfall. "

Of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most.

This article is sad bullshiat from someone that thinks his job is something more than taking money from people that hand it to him.


Hey! I work in retail - I hand back intoxicants.  Just because he is at the lower range of retail doesn't mean he cannot advance onto better paying drug dealing.

-OH by the way.
 
2013-09-24 03:28:48 PM  

that bosnian sniper: Somaticasual: By that logic, though, kids are blameless for tobacco use. BUT, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything in our power to keep kids away from cigarettes either.

Nicotine, of course, being an addictive stimulant drug that's typically delivered through products that also contain several known carcinogens and other substances that are harmful to the human body. All of which proven in an experimental setting.

The only causative link between video games and violence in kids, is that exposure to violent content regardless of delivery method or media increases violent thoughts and actions in kids. That's a significant intervening variable, indicative of greater endemic problems in mass media than just video games. The other significant intervening variable is the one we've already been discussing, which is that negligent parents are more likely to allow their children exposure to other forms of violent media as well.

Correlation is not causation, and correlative evidence backed by tenuous links to a handful of studies that prove causation in  other intersections, is what the blanket argument against exposing kids to violent video games relies. All of which, of course, is entirely within the  psychological sphere opposed to the  physiological sphere, which has always boggled the mind due to the number of studies that show correlation between numerous physical health problems and immoderate video game playing -- of course, that applies to  all video games rather than merely the violent ones. None of which is cause to override parental privilege on a legal level, even if attempting to shield kids from shiatty parents is the ultimate goal.

And, you know what? Kids are going to smoke anyway. It's a "grown up" thing to do, and it's the forbidden, irresistable, fruit of things they're told to  not do. Kids don't care that it's illegal -- look at juvenile pot use, for god's sake, and pot is  healthier than tobacco even if it's less-legal. It falls back to the ...


You realize most of your counter-argument is irrelevant, right? While I appreciate the thought put into it, again - the laws are not being made with GOOD parents in mind. Yes, better parenting SHOULD be the solution (IE, what I've been saying the entire time) BUT because it's not, we have the ESRB/etc.  I'm also not making the argument that most video games shouldn't be played by children - just ones with so many bad influences.
 
2013-09-24 03:49:41 PM  

rpm: Somaticasual: You still haven't answered my question, rpm.
Again - and with no mincing words, CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT VIDEO GAMES ARE PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?

No. Can you say with 100% intellectual honesty it's significant issues among significant numbers?

Bad parenting is far more impactful than video games. Do you support regulation of child bearing? If not, why not?

Religion has obviously done more damage to children than just about anything else. Do you support its regulation? If not, why not?

CAN YOU SAY WITH 100% INTELLECTUAL HONESTY THAT ANYTHING IS PERFECTLY SAFE FOR CHILDREN?


Obviously not, since anything would include explosives, drugs, etc.Keeping the influence away from kids is the goal, and the laws and ratings are there for that purpose.It doesn't matter whether or not it's a minority or a majority.  This has nothing to do with religion, stop shifting your argument. it also doesn't matter what I support past that, since the  laws are targeting bad parenting ostensibly. This is apparently what you just don't get - some parents will not police themselves. It's why lawn darts are banned, etc.
 
rpm
2013-09-24 04:02:28 PM  

Somaticasual: Obviously not, since anything would include explosives, drugs, etc.Keeping the influence away from kids is the goal, and the laws and ratings are there for that purpose.It doesn't matter whether or not it's a minority or a majority.  This has nothing to do with religion, stop shifting your argument. it also doesn't matter what I support past that, since the  laws are targeting bad parenting ostensibly. This is apparently what you just don't get - some parents will not police themselves. It's why lawn darts are banned, etc.


I'm not shifting the argument, you're blind to the flaws in yours.

OK, video games are a bad influence and should be regulated.
So's religion.
So's TV.
Hot dogs are dangerous. So is honey.
So is ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN NAME.

Why is regulation of other things not desirable when it is for video games? Show your work, no special pleading allowed.

If bad parenting is the problem, why not just require licenses for children? After all, a little restriction on freedom is nothing for the sake of future generations. Make sure only the ones that are able to parent actually do.
 
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