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(Opposing Views)   Student breaks arm, school won't take her to ER or call 911. School doesn't have ice for her broken arm, so they use ice cream sandwiches   (opposingviews.com) divider line 43
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14219 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Sep 2013 at 9:38 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2013-09-22 09:28:51 PM
8 votes:

ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens


The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.
2013-09-22 10:13:48 PM
7 votes:

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: But yeah, I don't see why anything below a displaced fracture merits a 911 call. It seems more sensible to call the parents to drive the kid to the hospital, or drive them yourself.

911 for this seems a waste of the paramedics' valuable time.


It's not a waste of their "valuable time". It's their job.

Fractures, at the very least, are incredibly painful. Paramedics can provide immediate pain control appropriate for the level of pain that patient is experiencing. They can also perform proper splinting and re-alignment of the extremity, both preventing further injury to the extremity, as well as decreasing the on-going damage from an unstable fracture. In addition, it's far more comfortable and safer for that person.

A fractured humerus or tib-fib can cause a loss of around 1/12 the volume of the blood in the body. A Femur can cause 1/6th that volume to bleed out into the fracture site.

Paramedics can identify neurovascular compromise and injury, and either intervene to attempt to restore critical perfusion flow, or rapidly transport a person quicker and safer than someone in a private vehicle can to definitive, proper care.

It's not as simple as "oh, you broke a bone".

Peter von Nostrand: That was the old days before private ambulance companies realized they could make money off non emergency transports

Suddenly EMS became part of comprehensive community health care


You think ambulance companies make money off any 911 calls? That's cute.

The real money is in IFT transports. 911 is a general money loss, period.

And EMS has always been a part of comprehensive community healthcare. The only people who don't want to make it that way are certain industry unions who lobby for decreased professional standards and making an EMS License an add-on certificate to Firefighter I.

Community Paramedicine is a real thing. And if the Field EMS bill passes the house and gets to the Senate, it'll be a nationwide thing, rather than a regional experiment.
2013-09-22 09:10:49 PM
7 votes:
What part of In loco parentis don't these idiots understand?
2013-09-22 10:00:40 PM
5 votes:

ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens


1. Yes you do.
2. No they can't.

Broken bones can and often do cause considerably more serious damage than you see on TV. Compound fractures can sever blood vessels, tendons, and in any case need to be evaluated by doctors after an X-ray and/or MRI. Yes, the school would be liable for TAKING the kid to the hospital--that's why you call 911 and let some trained medics make that call. If the paramedics arrive and say "This kid needs to go to the ER," then she goes--the ER has to take her, the school has to let her, and the parents have limited lawsuit options after that. If the medics say "She can wait," then the school is absolved of the liability they're going to get nailed with after this little fiasco.

Paramedics are always your first line of defense against injury and lawsuits. That's what 911 is for, people.
2013-09-22 09:37:09 PM
5 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Fubini: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.

I don't think the hospital can treat without express consent, either


I would think they are required to provide card to an injured person, regardless of age, and the whole concept of  in loco parentis should cover consent.  I mean, do they wait to get permission to save a kid shot in the lung during a school shooting?
2013-09-22 09:36:15 PM
4 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Fubini: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.

I don't think the hospital can treat without express consent, either


If the parents can't be contacted then the school can give consent. As was mentioned above: In loco parentis
2013-09-22 09:30:10 PM
4 votes:

Fubini: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.


I don't think the hospital can treat without express consent, either
2013-09-22 09:19:17 PM
4 votes:
You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens
2013-09-22 10:01:39 PM
3 votes:
Were they stupidly negligent, on afraid of getting sued?

Because they're going to get sued.

And taxpayers will pay for it.

You know, I figured out that is a lot of what taxes are for. Stupidity insurance.
2013-09-22 09:58:11 PM
3 votes:
I broke my arm in fourth grade and no one called 911 or an ambulance.  Instead, they called my parents and I waited in the front office until the step-mom showed up to take me to the ER.
2013-09-22 09:57:32 PM
3 votes:
With the mounds of legal crap schools have to be wary of, things like this cause everyone to lock up and be afraid to make any move.

Some administrator somewhere is still praying the kid wasn't allergic to the red dye on the ice cream sandwich wrapper.
2013-09-22 09:49:45 PM
3 votes:
Does it matter that the school doesn't have an X-ray machine or Superman Vision to accurately determine when a bone is actually broken?  Sure, if it's a compound fracture and the bone's jutting out the kid's arm, I could see phoning 911 pronto; otherwise it's a judgement call.

They called the parents. The kid is fine.
2013-09-22 09:46:38 PM
3 votes:
Is it racist to say that this little girl fell off of the monkey bars?
2013-09-22 09:42:45 PM
3 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: What part of In loco parentis don't these idiots understand?


The official designated 911 caller was busy monitoring kids' Facebook pages.
2013-09-23 05:45:15 AM
2 votes:
I necropsied a peregrine falcon that had a broken wing and then died suddenly. Looked like a bone splinter had shifted while he was being worked on and nicked an artery.

I know people =/= birds, but I'm just saying, it's impossible to tell what's going on inside someone's body without, you know, looking inside. Broken bones can lead to nerve damage.
2013-09-22 10:04:16 PM
2 votes:

ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm


You don't need to call 911 for a cardiac arrest, either.

However, it's a good idea to do it for both situations.
2013-09-22 10:03:17 PM
2 votes:
CSB time

When i was in 2nd grade my then "Boyfriend" fell in the playground and hurt his leg. I took him to the nurse's office. She was not on call that day and no one else would help in the office. I got a ice pack and wrapped it in papertowels and put it on his leg.

/1978
2013-09-22 10:01:33 PM
2 votes:

Saul T. Balzac: I broke my arm in fourth grade and no one called 911 or an ambulance.  Instead, they called my parents and I waited in the front office until the step-mom showed up to take me to the ER.


That was the old days before private ambulance companies realized they could make money off non emergency transports

Suddenly EMS became part of comprehensive community health care
2013-09-22 09:57:35 PM
2 votes:

Lady Indica: I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.


Who pays the $1000 for the ambulance ride, and the $300 just to walk in the door of the ER?

/number out of my butt, but not insanely wrong.
2013-09-22 09:49:36 PM
2 votes:
I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.
2013-09-22 09:38:58 PM
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Fubini: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.

I don't think the hospital can treat without express consent, either


Nope. The school better call 911. The kid will get transported and treated unless a parent or legal guardian denies treatment. In person too. Over the phone is not good enough
2013-09-23 05:57:05 AM
1 votes:
This happened to me as a kid. I broke the bones and smashed the growth plate in both wrists. Asshole nurse and school admins wouldnt call ambulance. Parents were working. I suffered for 6 hours waiting to get help.

I should have walked to a hospital.
2013-09-23 02:18:58 AM
1 votes:
Reason school acted so badly? Our litigious society.

(1) Most hospitals will not treat a minor without parental consent for something less than a life threatening injury.

(2) Many ambulance and rescue services have started billing the callers/patients again for services rendered -- which can be quite pricey.

(3) Having the child taken to the hospital without notifying the parent first opens the school up for several lawsuits, which, even if they 'win' they have to pay out half the national debt in legal costs.

(4) The school probably did not have a legal release paper for the girl, signed and notarized, giving them permission to release her to emergency services in the event of an incident.

(5) Budget cuts have nearly wiped out the old 'School Nurse' who used to be on duty and on campus for just such incidents and the 'School Nurse' would have to carry liability insurance, paid for by the school. Parents will sue if you put a band aid on a cut without their permission.

(6) Since the incident happened on school grounds, the administration was probably trying to contact their lawyers to find out how much it was going to cost them and what they could or could not do.

(7) Budget cuts probably eliminated having an ice machine which runs 24/7, requiring the school to buy bagged ice or make their own in trays.
(7-A) Ice machines can become contaminated by frequent use, which might make a student ill, which can result in a lawsuit for medical expenses, pain and suffering and neglect.

(8) Chances are the school did not have a physical education program, where the coach would have had an ice machine for use in treating soft tissue injuries obtained by athletes. They probably did not have the program because the parents listened to their winy kids about how exercising is too hard and they're exposed to the cancerous sun and if they loose, their feelings get hurt, which can scar them for life.

Common sense goes out the window when you get lawyers involved.
2013-09-23 01:35:15 AM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: The 911 call is free, dumbass.


You sound insured and well employed. This is the first time I've heard of ambulances being free. Maybe, instead of wasting their money on "click-it-or-ticket" bullshiat that's already built into all cars by law they could go ahead and advertise "Cost of 911 call: $0 Cost of ambulance: $0 Being alive: Priceless"
2013-09-23 01:28:49 AM
1 votes:

RoyBatty: Bathia_Mapes: What part of In loco parentis don't these idiots understand?

Just the loco part.

(I fell off the monkey bars and broke my arm too...)


Yep. I, too, broke my arm falling off the monkey bars, except the monkey bars were part of the Big Toy (one of those massive playground structure doohickeys). Fortunately for me, my school had ice packs and my dad is an orthopedist. But they didn't call 911 or a hospital either. Unless the bone is through the skin or there are signs of concussion, calling the parents first is normal.... or was in the 80s.

On the other hand, I broke my thumb in first grade, because they were trying to teach us to set a volleyball.... with the choice of either full regulation-weight ones or foam ones that were falling apart so badly you had to close your eyes so foam bits didn't fall in. Regulation weight ones are plenty heavy enough to bend a 7-year-old girl's thumb back if her hands are too far apart when setting, as it turns out. The damn nurse didn't even realize I'd broken it, and didn't even call my parents.... again, fortunately, my dad is an orthopedist. (Breaking your thumb turns out to entail an actual cast, not just a finger splint, btw. Don't ever do it. Especially your writing hand. >.<)
2013-09-22 11:43:43 PM
1 votes:
I broke my wrist in grade school (this was in the '90s).  No ambulance, they called my parents, who picked me up and took me to the doctor.

My friend's little sister fell off the monkey bars once at the same grade school, and broke both of her arms (tried to put her hands out to catch herself but was too slow, instead landed with both forearms parallel to the ground; compression fractures in both humeri).  No ambulance, they called her mom, who took her to the ER.  My brother fractured his arm twice during his time as a student at that school, and again, no 911 calls.  I knew of other kids who broke fingers, hands, and arms at various times at that school, and no 911 call was ever placed.

And you know something?  Not a single parent ever thought that was an issue.  For non-life-threatening injuries, the school called your emergency contacts.  911 was only for truly dire injuries.  And to me, that seems perfectly reasonable.  Given that the kid in question was 7, she most likely had a greenstick fracture, which is hardly a dire injury.
2013-09-22 11:06:15 PM
1 votes:
Are you people insane? You don't call 911 and incur thousands of dollars in bills for a non emergency.
No one at school is authorized to take a child off grounds for any reason.
Where I live it's $2500 just for the ambulance.
They did exactly as most parents would have wanted them to.
Kids break bones thousands of times a year at school, it's just part of life.

/they should have had an ice pack
2013-09-22 10:59:16 PM
1 votes:
When you hire inhuman people to teach your children you get inhuman responses to situations such as this. The teachers first thought in this case was themselves, not what was right for the kid.
2013-09-22 10:52:22 PM
1 votes:
My kid has had 2 broken bones while at school.  In neither case did they call 911.  They correctly tried to call my wife first, then me.  And in neither case did I take her to the ER.  I called her primary doctor, got a referral to the orthopedist over the phone and took her straight there.  That's a $30 copay.  An ambulance trip to the ER is a $350+ copay.  She's kind of accident prone, we have her orthopedist on speed dial.  sigh.
2013-09-22 10:47:53 PM
1 votes:

skinink: Reminds me of the time I was babysitting three kids, and the boy fell and sprained his toe. I took him to the hospital, where they refused to admit him because I did not have a medical release letter from his mother. so for the next couple of days he had to suffer, and he couldn't go to school because he was injured.

I'm so bad as a babysitter. The kid had injured himself four hours after his mother had left on her business trip.


That's nothing. A friend of mine was babysitting some kids one Halloween night, and this escaped mental patient showed up and stabbed all her friends across the street, then broke in on her and the kids and tried to finish them off too. She had to send the kids screaming down the road for help because nobody's parents could be found. Her worthless mom and dad didn't even show up after she'd been taken to the hospital to be treated for knife wounds and shock.

Come to think of it, she had a lot of problems on almost every Halloween night that followed, and her parents were always conveniently missing. I think they were in on it.
2013-09-22 10:47:09 PM
1 votes:

GDubDub: @drewcurtis Can you please effing stop linking with auto redirects? It sucks on phones.


Ohhh...someone thinks drew personally green lights and inspects each link. That's precious
2013-09-22 10:12:00 PM
1 votes:
When I was in the sixth grade a teacher decided that our free play at recess wasn't good enough and made each class participate in organized team sports that he ran. A friend of mine ended up falling down hard while playing baseball and asked to go to the nurse because his arm was in a lot of pain. The teacher told him to suck it up and quit whining. The kid came in the next day with a cast and sling.

Fortunately the teacher stopped trying to be such a dick and make the male students act like what he assumed was men. I guess he realized the bullet he dodged when the parents didn't sue him or the school.
2013-09-22 10:11:09 PM
1 votes:

rkiller1: Does it matter that the school doesn't have an X-ray machine or Superman Vision to accurately determine when a bone is actually broken? Sure, if it's a compound fracture and the bone's jutting out the kid's arm, I could see phoning 911 pronto; otherwise it's a judgement call.

They called the parents. The kid is fine.


I've broken both my arms and it pretty hard to miss when they are broken.  I suppose someone could manage it but it would be difficult.
2013-09-22 10:09:08 PM
1 votes:

mikeray: skinink: Reminds me of the time I was babysitting three kids, and the boy fell and sprained his toe. I took him to the hospital, where they refused to admit him because I did not have a medical release letter from his mother. so for the next couple of days he had to suffer, and he couldn't go to school because he was injured.

I'm so bad as a babysitter. The kid had injured himself four hours after his mother had left on her business trip.

Did she not have a darn phone?


1992, the dark ages where cell phones weren't everywhere...and internet? Email? What was that? She was on a plane when he got injured, and I don't remember why a simple call from her meeting in New Jersey would not get him admitted. But the hospital insisted I needed a letter giving permission to admit the kid.
2013-09-22 10:07:27 PM
1 votes:

rkiller1: Does it matter that the school doesn't have an X-ray machine or Superman Vision to accurately determine when a bone is actually broken?  Sure, if it's a compound fracture and the bone's jutting out the kid's arm, I could see phoning 911 pronto; otherwise it's a judgement call.

They called the parents. The kid is fine.


You will know when you've broken your arm. It's quite obvious even when it's just a sissy little fracture.

But yeah, I don't see why anything below a displaced fracture merits a 911 call. It seems more sensible to call the parents to drive the kid to the hospital, or drive them yourself.

911 for this seems a waste of the paramedics' valuable time.
2013-09-22 09:59:49 PM
1 votes:
Man, that family is going to be neck deep in KFC after the settlement comes in
2013-09-22 09:56:38 PM
1 votes:
And my wife had something similar happen. When she was in HS. She fell and broke her foot. They called her mom, who wasn't home, and they refused to cal her emergency contact number because it wouldn't do any good (they said). The break wasn't finally diagnosed until several days later.
Me, I broke my wrist once in gym class, and my dad, who taught at the school, swung by my Bio class the next period (after I finished taking a test), and took me to the ER.
2013-09-22 09:56:33 PM
1 votes:

Lady Indica: I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.


Do you have kids? If so you may want to call the school and find out what their policy is because I guarantee one of those papers you signed when you enrolled them was about this very subject.
2013-09-22 09:53:39 PM
1 votes:

Lady Indica: I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.


Only the known trolls.
2013-09-22 09:52:07 PM
1 votes:
Fist of all, it's a broken arm, she wasn't laying unconscious on the ground. Schools are required to call the emergency contacts in cases like this, that's why you give the school up to date information on how to contact you. Only when the child is in immediate danger would they be able to take her to the hospital (and the hospital be able to treat her) without a parent or guardians permission.
2013-09-22 09:45:54 PM
1 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: In person too. Over the phone is not good enough


Yep. I was going to point that out as well.

I worked in a *very* low income school district once. I had parents tell me to not call a doctor, or write statements to that effect on school forms. It's understandable, because these people are one car repair away from destitution (to say nothing of a medical bill), but that doesn't mean that the school would stand by and deny a kid treatment.

If you're not there, then you're absent. If you're absent, the school makes the decisions.
2013-09-22 09:45:24 PM
1 votes:

Fubini: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

The school could be held extra-liable if they don't take the child to the hospital and something worse happens. Nerve damage, internal bleeding, bad set, etc. If they couldn't contact the parents immediately, someone should have been taking the kid there.


Legally the school has to call 911 and administer care until they arrive.
2013-09-22 09:14:05 PM
1 votes:
That was a shatia thing to do.
 
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