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(Fox News)   Armed EPA raid in Alaska sheds light on 70 fed agencies with armed divisions, brings new meaning to the phrase "environmental warrior"   (foxnews.com) divider line 230
    More: Scary, EPA, Alaskans, environmental crime, Sean Parnell, Atmospheric Administration, gold mining, Federal Bureau of Prisons, GPO  
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3665 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Sep 2013 at 12:12 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-21 11:34:36 AM
They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?
 
2013-09-21 11:52:33 AM
Your local police force already has tanks and helicopters, so the Feds would appear to be a very small part of the problem.

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?


If you have a heavily armed and highly trained interdiction force, you have to use them or lose them.  If they have no armed terrorists to take out, then serving warrants and hassling ordinary citizens will have to do.  Maybe shoot the occasional dog.
 
2013-09-21 11:58:34 AM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?


A bulletproof vest, a windbreaker and a pistol is now an "armored unit." Check.

This is like a 0.2 on the Radley Balko police militarization meter.
 
2013-09-21 12:14:36 PM
Guns are always a good thing. Especially in Alaska where an angry momma bear could jump out at any moment. Fox News needs to stop pushing the liberal agenda that we need less guns.
 
2013-09-21 12:17:03 PM

Joelogon: cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?

A bulletproof vest, a windbreaker and a pistol is now an "armored unit." Check.

This is like a 0.2 on the Radley Balko police militarization meter.


Should EPA use vests and pistols?

Windbreakers I'll give a pass.
 
2013-09-21 12:21:19 PM
Story in AK, photo from FL. Good work, lou.
 
2013-09-21 12:22:07 PM
Just every day citizens employed by the government practicing their sacred Second Amendment rights.

Amirite?
 
2013-09-21 12:22:48 PM

Joelogon: cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?

A bulletproof vest, a windbreaker and a pistol is now an "armored unit." Check.

This is like a 0.2 on the Radley Balko police militarization meter.


How many EPA agents get killed during routine inspections?
 
2013-09-21 12:23:19 PM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?


There are often dangerous people in these places.  When I worked for CA Dep of Parks, I came across two outdoor meth labs/dump sites.  They were inactive (containing a shiatload of hazardous waste, though).  If I had come across an active operation, I would have probably been shot.  Also had co-workers who stumbled across an active pot grove.  Luckily, they were smart enough to GTFO and inform the proper (armed) employees.

DISCLAIMER: I am relating personal anecdotes to argue that armed officials are sometimes necessary, I AM NOT justifying this particular instance.
 
2013-09-21 12:23:23 PM
I guess the "obvious" tag is on leave? Soon the Armed Death Squads of Obamacare will be roaming the streets, hunting healthy, Freedom Loving Americans who refuse to participate in Obamacare.
 
2013-09-21 12:23:53 PM
I thought everyone having guns was a good thing.
 
2013-09-21 12:24:07 PM

Mrbogey: Joelogon: cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?

A bulletproof vest, a windbreaker and a pistol is now an "armored unit." Check.

This is like a 0.2 on the Radley Balko police militarization meter.

How many EPA agents get killed during routine inspections?


None.  So it obviously works.

/fight derp with derp
 
2013-09-21 12:25:39 PM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus H. W. Christ how can you assholes defend this?


ftfy
 
2013-09-21 12:29:42 PM
I would be shocked if "full body armor" was anything more than a vest. Forest Service LEOs where vests and sidearms all the time, not just when they're responding to a crime in progress. There are a lot of anti-government people out there who would love nothing more than to pop a federal agent performing their duty, so those agents have to take precautions.
 
2013-09-21 12:29:48 PM

bwilson27: Story in AK about armed EPA agents, photo from FL. showing unarmed EPA personal Good work, lou.


its even more stupid than you realized.
 
2013-09-21 12:30:10 PM
Remember, kiddies; federal agents having guns with no evidence of them using them enforcing warrants--you know, things forcing you to do something you don't want--with laws that have been slurred by 30 years of RW media: bad

Buford T. Crotchpiker hording the equivalent of the armament of a small battalion because Rush told him der coming fer his guns: good.
 
2013-09-21 12:32:11 PM

blastoh: bwilson27: Story in AK about armed EPA agents, photo from FL. showing unarmed EPA personal Good work, lou.

its even more stupid than you realized.


Well, it is FOX
 
2013-09-21 12:32:24 PM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?


I thought Republicans loved bureaucrats as long as they were carrying guns.
 
2013-09-21 12:33:08 PM
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20130903/gold-miners-near-chicke n-cry-foul-over-heavy-handed-epa-raids
This article keeps referencing the Canadian Border, so blame Canada who wants to keep their water pure from mining runoff(does not apply to other countries like Romania, where Canadians are going to use arsenic to mine gold).

/Otherwise its the standard republican rag mags circlejerk for links.
//Militarized enforcement forces are a Republicans dream.
///A non-police enforcement unit wearing uniforms that say 'Police' is the crime of 'impersonating a police officer'.
 
2013-09-21 12:35:10 PM
The idea that the EPA needs to be armed is laughable,  it isn't like they are going to Starbucks.
 
2013-09-21 12:36:24 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

Would like a word with you.

So Would...
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-09-21 12:40:59 PM
I'm going to say this has a lot more to do with human and drug trafficking and not much at all to do with Nixon's EPA.
 
2013-09-21 12:42:20 PM

Tymast: The idea that the EPA needs to be armed is laughable,  it isn't like they are going to Starbucks.


Lunatics like you are armed. They need the guns.
 
2013-09-21 12:44:48 PM
Have you seen the sort of criminals they have to deal with? You'd want a SWAT team too.
www.comicbookmovie.org
 
2013-09-21 12:45:12 PM

sheep snorter: http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20130903/gold-miners-near-chicke n-cry-foul-over-heavy-handed-epa-raids
This article keeps referencing the Canadian Border, so blame Canada who wants to keep their water pure from mining runoff(does not apply to other countries like Romania, where Canadians are going to use arsenic to mine gold).

/Otherwise its the standard republican rag mags circlejerk for links.
//Militarized enforcement forces are a Republicans dream.
///A non-police enforcement unit wearing uniforms that say 'Police' is the crime of 'impersonating a police officer'.


Arsenic? Did you mean cyanide instead? As far as I know, arsenic in gold mining is something to be gotten rid of, whereas cyanide solution is used to dissolve very fine gold and is then run through activated charcoal for recovery. The cyanide is then reused...
 
2013-09-21 12:45:24 PM

ghare: Tymast: The idea that the EPA needs to be armed is laughable,  it isn't like they are going to Starbucks.

Lunatics like you are armed. They need the guns.


and legged too, but i wear pants mostly because there's no right for bare ones in the constitution
 
2013-09-21 12:45:47 PM
I usually say "Fark these guys raping the Alaskan wilderness hunting for gold", but armed agents???

They are rumored to defend their claims with.... um... vigor, so I can see why, but damn man.
 
2013-09-21 12:47:56 PM
Meh, I think even our state dental board employes some armed officers.  This isn't news.
 
2013-09-21 12:48:31 PM

Whistling Kitty Chaser: I would be shocked if "full body armor" was anything more than a vest. Forest Service LEOs where vests and sidearms all the time, not just when they're responding to a crime in progress. There are a lot of anti-government people out there who would love nothing more than to pop a federal agent performing their duty, so those agents have to take precautions.


A friend of mine, her dad is a Michigan DNR agent.  He's had to have his family hide in the house while he called the sheriff because some Yooper bubbas were pissed he'd busted them poaching and had shown up drunk with a couple of his buddies to clarify things.
 
2013-09-21 12:48:35 PM

meat0918: I usually say "Fark these guys raping the Alaskan wilderness hunting for gold", but armed agents???

They are rumored to defend their claims with.... um... vigor, so I can see why, but damn man.


Indeed, the alaskan wild becomes a petting zoo around the EPA agents since they are in league together.  That is very unlike how life goes for the Real Americans, sometimes m-16 and .50 cal just isn't enough to be safe.  Besides, they aren't a carshop in arizona so why would they need to have guns with them at work?
 
2013-09-21 12:50:17 PM
Simple rule to tell if a violent police raid is justified: Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? If no, then just go up to the front door and knock like any other human being, and like how civilized peace officers used to serve warrants.
 
2013-09-21 12:51:19 PM
I didn't think guns were a big deal.  They're just a tool after all.
 
2013-09-21 12:54:03 PM
Maybe they saw a spike in Skittle sales.
 
2013-09-21 12:55:27 PM

Churchill2004: Simple rule to tell if a violent police raid is justified: Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? If no, then just go up to the front door and knock like any other human being, and like how civilized peace officers used to serve warrants.


What if the miners concerned were violent convicted felons?
 
2013-09-21 01:00:11 PM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?


With the common republican refrain of, "If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about."

The only concern fox has is that it's the EPA.
 
2013-09-21 01:02:40 PM

MFAWG: Churchill2004: Simple rule to tell if a violent police raid is justified: Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? If no, then just go up to the front door and knock like any other human being, and like how civilized peace officers used to serve warrants.

What if the miners concerned were violent convicted felons?


It's still more dangerous to create a violent situation where there was none previously. If you're really worried about your target fighting back (and simply being a felon is far from sufficient evidence of that), then grab them when they're getting their groceries or whatever. If you're dealing with violent people who may fight back, then you make it much more likely that something bad will happen by bursting in SWAT-style at 3am, for among other reasons because you make it much harder for the target to even  know it's the police loudly breaking into his home.
 
2013-09-21 01:04:34 PM
Let me understand this, right wing troll accounts.

Show up at Starbucks or a highway overpass with an AR-15 knockoff, two pistols, and a sign advocating the overthrow of the American government is just patriotism being patriotic and something that no one should be nervous about.

But a law enforcement officer being armed while on duty is the most evil thing ever and everyone should freak out.
 
2013-09-21 01:07:29 PM

cman: They sent an armored unit to check if people are adhering to the Clean Water Act?

Jesus Christ how can you assholes defend this?


Well, the fact that even the Fox News story states there's speculated Human Trafficking involved is a start.

The reality of it though is that pretty much every federal large office has some kind of investigative and enforcement group tied to it. The postal service has armed postal inspectors. The EPA has armed investigators. The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development has an Office of the Inspector General.

All of these divisions are tasked with investigating potential crimes in their specific field. Toxic waste dumping, theft and mail fraud specific to the EPA and and USPS, and embezzlement, contract violations (such as scamming the government with unsafe building materials), and internal abuse of powers.

Given that these are federal law enforcement officers with full arrest authority, they are issued guns and gear. They're the same job classification (18-11) as an FBI agent, DEA agent, or Secret Service agent.

Honestly, criminals - regardless of what kind of crime - can be dangerous. Mining employees dumping waste in a way that could lead to millions of dollars of violations may well be willing to shoot anyone that sees them - particularly federal agents.
 
2013-09-21 01:07:40 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Let me understand this, right wing troll accounts.

Show up at Starbucks or a highway overpass with an AR-15 knockoff, two pistols, and a sign advocating the overthrow of the American government is just patriotism being patriotic and something that no one should be nervous about.

But a law enforcement officer being armed while on duty is the most evil thing ever and everyone should freak out.


You are a lot more likely to be killed by the latter.
 
2013-09-21 01:12:22 PM

Churchill2004: MFAWG: Churchill2004: Simple rule to tell if a violent police raid is justified: Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? If no, then just go up to the front door and knock like any other human being, and like how civilized peace officers used to serve warrants.

What if the miners concerned were violent convicted felons?

It's still more dangerous to create a violent situation where there was none previously. If you're really worried about your target fighting back (and simply being a felon is far from sufficient evidence of that), then grab them when they're getting their groceries or whatever. If you're dealing with violent people who may fight back, then you make it much more likely that something bad will happen by bursting in SWAT-style at 3am, for among other reasons because you make it much harder for the target to even  know it's the police loudly breaking into his home.


Unless you're trying to catch them in the act, or prevent the crime in question.

For instance - armed miners (it's Alaskan wilderness after all) are in the process of trying to dump waste that may do size able environmental harm. You really suggest its wrong for federal law enforcement officers to try to stop the dumping and to bring their own guns for their safety?

And if the human trafficking angle is true what then? Pick the group off one by one as they go for groceries, thereby letting them know their targeted, and putting the victims in more danger?
 
2013-09-21 01:12:52 PM

Churchill2004: Simple rule to tell if a violent police raid is justified: Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? If no, then just go up to the front door and knock like any other human being, and like how civilized peace officers used to serve warrants.


This is the only description of the "violent raid."

"Imagine coming up to your diggings, only to see agents swarming over it like ants, wearing full body armor, with jackets that say "POLICE" emblazoned on them, and all packing side arms," gold miner C.R. Hammond told the Alaska Dispatch.

If simply being armed makes it a "violent raid,"  then the last party I was at was "violently raided" by a very polite and understanding cop who happened to have a Glock on his hip.
 
2013-09-21 01:13:31 PM
Now we know why they had to buy all those bullets.

Statists are fine with armed federal employees everywhere, watching. It's comforting and safe. That's what's most important. You have to think of the children.
 
2013-09-21 01:17:12 PM

studs up: Now we know why they had to buy all those bullets.

Statists are fine with armed federal employees everywhere, watching. It's comforting and safe. That's what's most important. You have to think of the children.


disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-09-21 01:19:03 PM

Deneb81: For instance - armed miners (it's Alaskan wilderness after all) are in the process of trying to dump waste that may do size able environmental harm. You really suggest its wrong for federal law enforcement officers to try to stop the dumping and to bring their own guns for their safety?


I don't really care if they're armed or not, it's the flashbang/bash-down-the-door/startle-and-disorient crap that is so dangerous and objectionable. If that's not what happened here, and the agents just showed up like normal people, announced their presence, and served and executed the warrant, than I don't see a problem with the tactics.

Deneb81: And if the human trafficking angle is true what then? Pick the group off one by one as they go for groceries, thereby letting them know their targeted, and putting the victims in more danger?

 
I don't see how it isn't clear that rescuing people being held against their will is well within the limits of what I said was the correct use of these tactics. ("Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? ")
 
2013-09-21 01:21:09 PM
i like that the FOX article was bemoaning an increase in customs and border enforcement personnel.
 
2013-09-21 01:23:58 PM

Churchill2004: Deneb81: For instance - armed miners (it's Alaskan wilderness after all) are in the process of trying to dump waste that may do size able environmental harm. You really suggest its wrong for federal law enforcement officers to try to stop the dumping and to bring their own guns for their safety?

I don't really care if they're armed or not, it's the flashbang/bash-down-the-door/startle-and-disorient crap that is so dangerous and objectionable. If that's not what happened here, and the agents just showed up like normal people, announced their presence, and served and executed the warrant, than I don't see a problem with the tactics.

Deneb81: And if the human trafficking angle is true what then? Pick the group off one by one as they go for groceries, thereby letting them know their targeted, and putting the victims in more danger?
 
I don't see how it isn't clear that rescuing people being held against their will is well within the limits of what I said was the correct use of these tactics. ("Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? ")


Well, from the statements included in TFA:

The EPA denies it was a 'raid'.
One of the miners gave a statement that says he came up to check out the haul and there were 'agents swarming on it like ants'. That's hardly a flash bang, SWAT style raid from the sounds of it.

So what's the issue? Why is this even a big discussion?
 
2013-09-21 01:26:11 PM
They're cops, complete with the power to put you in cuffs and haul you off to jail.  Do you expect them to not have weapons?
www.zuguide.com
Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.

 
2013-09-21 01:26:49 PM

Deneb81: Churchill2004: Deneb81: For instance - armed miners (it's Alaskan wilderness after all) are in the process of trying to dump waste that may do size able environmental harm. You really suggest its wrong for federal law enforcement officers to try to stop the dumping and to bring their own guns for their safety?

I don't really care if they're armed or not, it's the flashbang/bash-down-the-door/startle-and-disorient crap that is so dangerous and objectionable. If that's not what happened here, and the agents just showed up like normal people, announced their presence, and served and executed the warrant, than I don't see a problem with the tactics.

Deneb81: And if the human trafficking angle is true what then? Pick the group off one by one as they go for groceries, thereby letting them know their targeted, and putting the victims in more danger?
 
I don't see how it isn't clear that rescuing people being held against their will is well within the limits of what I said was the correct use of these tactics. ("Was the situation already violent, e.g. a bank robbery or a hostage situation? ")

Well, from the statements included in TFA:

The EPA denies it was a 'raid'.
One of the miners gave a statement that says he came up to check out the haul and there were 'agents swarming on it like ants'. That's hardly a flash bang, SWAT style raid from the sounds of it.

So what's the issue? Why is this even a big discussion?


EPAhazi!
 
2013-09-21 01:27:28 PM
You understand that in Alaska, which has extremely loose open-carry laws, where 62% of the population owns guns, where dislike of government is close to universal and more cops are killed in the line of duty than any other state, and where backup could be several hours away by air, it's necessary for all agents and officers to be over prepared, rather than underprepared for things to go bad?
 
2013-09-21 01:27:31 PM

pueblonative: Remember, kiddies; federal agents having guns with no evidence of them using them enforcing warrants--you know, things forcing you to do something you don't want--with laws that have been slurred by 30 years of RW media: bad

Buford T. Crotchpiker hording the equivalent of the armament of a small battalion because Rush told him der coming fer his guns: good.



thisbearsrepeating.jpg
 
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