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(About.com)   The American Police State may work like Mexico with better plumbing   (civilliberty.about.com) divider line 74
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2711 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Dec 2001 at 6:22 PM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2001-12-03 06:28:43 PM
Just as long as you don't get the squirts from drinking the water in jail..
 
2001-12-03 06:39:38 PM
That whiny-assed, dumbfark has clearly never been to Mexico...

We don't need no stinking BADGERS!
 
2001-12-03 06:42:22 PM
Normally, there is a balance of power between the democrats and the republicans, at the present time this is suspended.
So, we might as well get used to the knock on the door at night and the sound of a silenced nine millimeter.

What we seem to forget is that quite a lot of countries are like this now and that in a generation we will get used to it.

As for me, I will try to stay patriotic enough in my golden years to be left alone without stooping to becoming a quisling.

Ah, that is the real danger, what kind of reward will be offered to turn in the neighbors. Perhaps just the kinder and gentler suggestion that a domestic stool pidgen has less chance of having a jack-booted storm trooper kick his door in?

We are living in a chinese curse, the times are way the hell too interesting.
 
2001-12-03 06:52:38 PM
Whiny-assed dumb fark, eh? I think not. JD seems right on target to me. Americans just don't yet realize how badly they've been snookered over this deal. Ashcroft and his cabal have just Farked us all out of the Bill of Rights. 9/11 was the best thing that ever happened to the careers of Ashcroft & Bush. Look at the poll numbers before and after 9/11. Qui bono, as the Romans used to say. Before all this crap they couldn't get jack passed through congress. Now the congress passes their wish lists without even reading the bill. Oh, well. You get what you pay for, and that applies to politicians, too. Prepare for the anal probe!
 
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2001-12-03 07:01:05 PM
Blah blah blah.. same old stuff..

Republican in office - Hippies and liberals start calling everybody a Nazi and complain how the entire country is a police state.

Democrat in office - Right wingers complain that the country is being turned over to the faggots and atheists.

Each side repeats the same rhetoric and propaganda ad nauseum. Shake every for years, and repeat.

It's a recipe for dog shiat.
 
2001-12-03 07:02:34 PM
Klofkorn:

Get with the program, already. Just say no to MTV News. Do you believe everything you read and watch, or what?

For one thing, I was criticizing his comparison to Mexico. Mexico isn't a police state as anyone who's been there knows. It's a police-less state.

That idiot throws around "police state" to rock the boat and get readers. Please... police state was Soviet Union, East Germany. The U.S. government has been listening in on you for years, but when they publicly, transparently declare they want to do it in the name of the anti-terror war, everyone's a Chicken Little. What a bunch of ninnies.
 
2001-12-03 07:09:14 PM
I don't know, I've only been to TJ recently. It's been decades since I've penetrated the Real Mexico.

But you still have to allocate a certain amount of your pesos to bribes, no exceptions.

And everytime I hit TJ, I see squads of soldiers with assault rifles. That's something you don't see around here... oops I meant until recently.

Any analogy is going to have holes if you want to find them.
 
2001-12-03 07:23:34 PM
This guy's really pretty close on target. Although in some ways I have to agree with (shudder) Fb that there is usually a lean in one way or another, this situation was jumped on to dramatically reduce your civil liberties. I don't think that I'd be too far off the mark to say that if another attack occurred soon, we'd be rounding up those of Arabic descent and putting them into internment camps, similar to the case of the Japanese. With the current legislation, they don't need a warrant to tap your phone, or monitor your internet traffic! (Or bust you posting something they don't care much for.)
 
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2001-12-03 07:33:45 PM
I'd really like to hear which of my civil liberties have been taken away.
 
2001-12-03 07:37:54 PM
Newsflash: people always lose civil liberties during wartime. They blew up the WTC and the pentagon, fer chrissakes. Sooner we eliminate the threat to our homeland, the sooner we can go back to hugging trees in safety and anonymity.
 
2001-12-03 07:48:09 PM
Fb-

EXACTLY! No one can sit and name what civil liberties have been lost here. It's wartime.. people should chill out.

Doctor, until they start rounding people up for internment camps, your speculation is just that.

Your civil liberties COULD be violated before all of this and they CAN be since. What's changed besides the government actually seeking approval for what they've already been doing on the sly anyway. The only difference is that Judge "Dancing" Lance Ito has less evidence that Mr. Johnny can convince him must be thrown out.
 
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2001-12-03 07:52:28 PM
Leftists always assume the worst of their government, that's the problem. There's nothing wrong with intelligent critiquing of government policy or actions. But this knee jerk reaction that every law passed is designed to have us goose stepping is stupid.

Almost as stupid as making some illogical leap that concludes that holding al qaeda suspects without bond means that we are going to capture all arabs and gas them in a nazi camp.

Stupid. Plane stupid. It's no different then Sharpton when he claims that 'if affirmative action is not upheld, it's because the government has a secret plan to reinstitute slavery for all black people.'

It's just asinine fear mongering from people that hardly understand the situation they are in.
 
2001-12-03 08:08:58 PM
The rain in Spain is "plane stupid" ...
 
2001-12-03 08:09:00 PM
In my state, a woman was prevented from boarding a plane because the airport officials, who had her picture and information about her political views, felt that she might pose a threat. In many instances, arab-americans have been thrown off flights or interrogated simply because the pilots "felt unsafe" with a middle-eastern person on board. Since when does someone's politics or skintone effect their rights? I can understand some survalance and paranoia, but blanent racism and such shouldn't be taken as just a precaution taken by our leaders in a time of war.
 
2001-12-03 08:12:17 PM
My father went off to fight in germany when he was young, it was his patriotic duty. When he came back, I believe he was of somewhat different attitude about things. The rampant injustice that he saw being dragged before the nation during the civil rights movement angered him. Afterall, he had just came back from fighting a nazi regime.

What would he think if he were alive now?

My state has had random roadblocks for years.
have you been drinking?
do you have weapons in the vehicle?
are you in possession of drugs?
do you know that it is a crime to lie to the police?

We get used to it.

How long before a computerized thought policeman, an Echelon program on nano-transistor steroids, knows your every move?

Yesterday?

Good gosh, you should have seen the plans they had layed out for any y2k disaster.

We would have gotten used to them too, besides the glitter of razor wire in the early morn could be considered inspiring.

For some.
 
2001-12-03 08:14:09 PM
Whoaaa... I'm no leftist, and here are some of the new powers, that have little to do with the current (no, we have not declared WAR) military situation.

1)Expanded Surveillance With Reduced Checks and Balances

2)Overbreadth with a lock of focus on terrorism

3)Allows Americans to be More Easily Spied Upon by US Foreign Intelligence Agencies

There are a great many of subsections regarding searches without warrants, etc.

The biggest problems relate to the invasion of privacy, in my opinion, and although I expect certain knee jerk reactions from members of Farkistan, I'm not alone here. There are a number of problems that will filter down, having nothing to do with terrorism.

I'm not a leftist, a communist, a hippy, or anything else that you might want to call me.

Almost as stupid as making some illogical leap that concludes that holding al qaeda suspects without bond means that we are going to capture all arabs and gas them in a nazi camp

Nope, didn't say that, and you'll find that most of the people being detained or even those being questioned that are not detained have nothing to do with al qaeda, they simply look arab.

Check this out, or look on Google for problems that other folks (not leftists) have highlighted as being a problem.
 
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2001-12-03 08:19:31 PM
Divaa31,

In my state, a woman was prevented from boarding a plane because the airport officials, who had her picture and information about her political views, felt that she might pose a threat.

Clearly you only read the woman's report of the situation. I think the truth of the situation is quite beyond this. She was subject to a normal security check that all passengers go through. When they got to her, she started going bezerk screaming about her political affiliation and how it's a setup because she's a member of the green party.

Do you honestly believe that joe blow security officer from bum fark airport making $7.00 an hour knows that some lady is a member of the Green party? I doubt that 90% of the hardest Green party members could pick her out of the crowd. She was subject to a quite normal security check. She used it as an opportunity to make a scene to further her political agenda.

Let's face it. There's going to be profiling. Right or wrong. It wasn't a 14 year old white girl that flew were responsible for attacks. It wasn't 70 year old chinese men that currently have a holy war declared against the US. Racial profiling to a large degree is wrong. But there will be some in this situation. In order for security measures to be effective, they have to be targted properly.

Being a part of a very tiny white minority on an island that is 98% black, I can honestly say that I know what it feels like to be hassled, disrespected, singled out or ignored because of your skin color. It's a shame. But I would put up with all the harrassment in the world if it ensured my safety and the safety of my family while we are en route to our destination.
 
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2001-12-03 08:21:11 PM
Icecycle,

You are against DUI checkpoints. Wonderful. My mother was crippled by a drunk driver. I support them. If they save one life, it's worth you taking 5 minutes out of your day to answer the officer that's trying to keep people alive.

Selfish puke.
 
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2001-12-03 08:22:24 PM
Doctor,

How do you know so much about the people detained?
 
2001-12-03 08:23:55 PM
Fb-But there will be some in this situation. In order for security measures to be effective, they have to be targted properly.

What's properly? Arab and muslim men, right?
 
2001-12-03 08:24:40 PM
Make all cars have the breath analyzer to start feature. Nobody would drink and drive that way.
 
2001-12-03 08:25:02 PM
You live on a caribbean island? Is it cool, or does it suck?
 
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2001-12-03 08:27:21 PM
Angry Inch,

Yes. Arab, Indonesian or African men ages 18-30 that have traveled overseas in the last year that have purchased a one way ticket, likely with cash.

That would be who I would target as most likely to be involved and I have no problem with a background check on them before they board the plane.

What's your suggestion to secure airports again?
 
2001-12-03 08:27:39 PM
I was damn near run down by a completely sober driver today who was too stupid to know a five letter word, stop.

These check points take up to 45 minutes to go through, unlike the bucholic relm that some of us exist in, in indiana and parts of kentucky, we have vehicles on the road besides horse carts.

Hell with it, the terrorists have farking won and I will now go home to get (legally) drunk.
 
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2001-12-03 08:28:24 PM
Doctor,

Everyday is summer and every weekend is a scuba diving vacation. The culture and locals here are a trip. I've made some interesting friends.
 
2001-12-03 08:28:55 PM
How far should we go to save one life? Why limit it to DUI checkpoints? There are manythings we could have checkpoints/random searches for. Why stop where the Constituion tells us to, especially if it is just a little bit farther and it saves [one] life?
 
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2001-12-03 08:30:08 PM
Icecycle,

I'm, sorry to hear that, but I'm sure you don't want police at every stop sign because that would be another step toward the evil nazi police state where you are inconvenienced all the time.
 
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2001-12-03 08:31:02 PM
RageX,

What's your point?
 
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2001-12-03 08:34:40 PM
We do need to keep an eye on our government. Remember this though guys and gals. Just because something is an inconvenience in your day or prevents you from breaking an already established law doesn't make this country a nazi facist police state. Sorry, it doesn't.

I've noticed something about young people. They always feel like the martyr that is being crushed under the thumb of an opressive regime.

Dude, my parents are such facist nazi's. I wanted to go out to the party tonight and they said no because they found dope in my room. Dude, they are such nazi's. I can't wait until I'm in college and I'm free.

Dude, the man is such a facist nazi. He's always doing stuff like setting limits on how much I can drink before I drive or busting down on my party. The government is just a facist that wants to keep me down. I hate the government and the police.
 
2001-12-03 08:36:59 PM
Fb-Yes. Arab, Indonesian or African men ages 18-30 that have traveled overseas in the last year that have purchased a one way ticket, likely with cash.

Would this apply to American citizens that fit the profile?
 
2001-12-03 08:38:51 PM
We could save 1000s of lives if we put speed bumps every 20 feet. WHO IS WITH ME, WE WANT TO SAVE LIVES DON'T WE.
 
2001-12-03 08:40:07 PM
 
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2001-12-03 08:40:22 PM
Angry Inch,

Of course. I fit in that profile. As I said before, I have no problem with an electronic background check or a search of my bags if it gets me safely to my destination. I don't condsider free passage through an airport without security checks a civil right.
 
2001-12-03 08:40:31 PM
Interesting article
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/pf/p-j120301.html
 
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2001-12-03 08:42:06 PM
Llamasex,

I think it's asinine to correlate something as stupid as putting a speed bump every 20 feet in the road to something like beefing up the security of major airports so that the meet the standards that the rest of the civilized world has already set for themselves.
 
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2001-12-03 08:43:05 PM
Leonard_Cohen,

antiwar.com? I'm sure their material is no more biased than newsmax.com or christianity.com.

It's not like they have a major agenda to push. Oh wait, they do.
 
2001-12-03 08:46:43 PM
So you consent to waiving you 4th and 5th amendment rights when it comes to profiling and travel but what about those of us who wish not to?
 
2001-12-03 08:47:36 PM
Fb-

You are against DUI checkpoints. Wonderful. My mother was crippled by a drunk driver. I support them. If they save one life, it's worth you taking 5 minutes out of your day to answer the officer that's trying to keep people alive.

Selfish puke.


So if your father was locked up for a few months without a charge and you didn't hear from him, then you'd be calling the "the patriot act" a load of shait.

Hypocritical puke, (actually I don't think your a hypocritical puke, but I couldn't ignore the symetry)
 
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2001-12-03 08:48:08 PM
Angry Inch,

What's your model to prevent people from hijacking planes again? Are you advocating the same system we used on 9/11 or are you advocating complete anarchy void of any authority or security where people just show up with whatever and do whatever because it's their right?
 
2001-12-03 08:48:13 PM
Fb-

Well people die of all sorts of things all the time; I think stairs kill quite a few people a year (more than one). The point is how much effort/money/inconvenience/etc. is saving one life worth. People tend to react emotionally and proclaim that one life is always worth saving no matter the cost but this is clearly not possible. So where is the limit? Is there ever an acceptable amount of loss of life for a particular behavior/product/freedom/etc.?
 
J
2001-12-03 08:48:31 PM
I guess the main problem with assuming that our government is working toward our best interest is the fact that nearly every politician above the local level has been bought by people who care only about their own money. This can be dangerous.

Fb, you're a realist with a family, and you're aware that there's a good portion of "American society" is the scum of the Earth. That's great-- me too. However, even if you are a curmudgeon, to act as one on a federal level is, quite frankly, un-American.
 
2001-12-03 08:49:56 PM
Fb-
It's not like they have a major agenda to push. Oh wait, they do.

and who doesn't have an agenda to push? I like to hear a little from everyones agenda.
 
2001-12-03 08:53:41 PM
 
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2001-12-03 08:53:56 PM
RageX,

When I hear somebody beg the question 'where's the limit' or use the phrase 'slippery slope' it always sounds to me like they are saying that because doing something could possibly lead to something in a very remote and extreme circumstance, that means we have an obligation to do nothing.

Kind of like how they enforce drug laws.

My response would be, we need to be practical. Be realistic and fiscially responsible in situations like that. Obviously we can't do everything to help everybody, nor do we have the obligation to. I don't however find it fair to compare the current effort underway of securing our airports to the levels seen fit by many countries overseas to something to the overkill hypothetical of making sure there are police at every stairway because somebody might fall.

In short, severity of the risk should be assesed with fiscal responsiblity in determining what actions are taken to sure up safety.
 
2001-12-03 08:55:16 PM
Fb- Well i'd start with better controls over immigrants. How many of those folks entered on legal visas? How many of them expired and no one noticed? Were not a few on the FBI's watch list? I'd pay to hire more cops to enforce those things. How about hiring as many armed sky marshals as it took to ensure safety? I'd pay for that. And no one would have to waive any rights.
 
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2001-12-03 08:59:29 PM
Angry Inch,

Can't bother immigrants. Look at the hot water the Federal government is in for detaining people on immigration violations. People are comparing it to nazi death camps or japanese internment. Clearly we have no right to enforce our immigration laws that are in effect now, let alone toughen them. It's a violation of everybody's civil rights.

Amred sky marshalls are a step in the right direction. It is one part of a broad solution to protecting our airports. I think that increased security in the terminals and better screening of baggaged checked into aircraft need to go along with sky marshalls. I simply don't see one guy with a gun on random flights in the US as an end all be all to the problem of hijacked flights.
 
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2001-12-03 09:05:05 PM
I'd love to discuss more, but it's monday night football time. I'm gonna watch some of the game and get ready for work tomorrow.
 
2001-12-03 09:11:35 PM
Fb-

I was commenting mainly on increased police powers, the matter of checkpoints, and the comment on car breath analyzers; not airports.

As per your response: agreed.

I thought the definition of a slippery slope was that one thing _would_ lead to another (as in falling down a slope) not that it _might_ lead to another in some extreme/unlikley case(s).

_My_ only suggestion would be to craft policy/legislation with heavy input from security experts _not_ just bearuacrats and businessmen. I personally doubt that the recently proposed helicopter patrols of the USA/Canadian border will be effective (cost or otherwise). It seems crafted to make people feel like something is being done and that they are safer.
 
J
2001-12-03 09:12:50 PM
He snipes, evades, vanishes...
 
2001-12-03 09:14:59 PM
bearuacrats ... bearuacrats ... I am imagining the entire congress holding session in oversized fuzzy bear-suits.
 
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