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(Yahoo)   Those would trade their civil liberties for economic security may soon find that they have neither   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line 46
    More: Obvious, economic security, Americans, civil liberties, free market capitalism, basic law, malthusian, false premise, Dodd  
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2274 clicks; posted to Business » on 20 Sep 2013 at 1:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-20 11:52:51 AM  
No matter what you hear to the contrary greed didn't create the housing bubble.

Stopped reading right there.
 
2013-09-20 12:05:27 PM  

Mentat: No matter what you hear to the contrary greed didn't create the housing bubble.

Stopped reading right there.


Well, greed alone didn't cause it

In every disaster there isn't just one cause; it results from many actions that come together that causes the disaster.

To say that greed had nothing to do with it is a lie, but to say that it was the only reason is just as wrong.
 
2013-09-20 12:18:12 PM  
I avoid entering contracts that even mention the words 'binding arbitration' for this reason as well.

How about this one, astroturfing article writer:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
-Captain Picard
 
2013-09-20 12:22:33 PM  

BumpInTheNight: I avoid entering contracts that even mention the words 'binding arbitration' for this reason as well.


I read one book about the collapse of auction rate securities after the downturn.  The banks knew the ARS's were going down, so they directed their people to shovel them off on investors as "same as cash".  When the ARS market collapsed, the investors were forced into industry-sponsored arbitration which almost invariably sided with the banks on the grounds that since the investors bought in, they were savvy investors who knew what they were getting into despite the fact that the banks deliberately misled said investors.  It was only after the government stepped in that anyone got their money back.
 
2013-09-20 12:23:53 PM  
Your blog sucks.
 
2013-09-20 01:11:27 PM  
From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.
 
2013-09-20 01:14:33 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.


That's quite a prestigious title for a professional ignorant gasbag, I'll give him that.
 
2013-09-20 01:56:08 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.


WTF is an analytic philosopher?  It sounds like an abstract surgeon.
 
2013-09-20 01:57:32 PM  

Rapmaster2000: rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.

WTF is an analytic philosopher?  It sounds like an abstract surgeon.


I think it means he generates no original thoughts as a rule.
 
2013-09-20 01:59:52 PM  
Defending pawn shops. Good luck with that.
 
2013-09-20 02:01:34 PM  

Rapmaster2000: WTF is an analytic philosopher?  It sounds like an abstract surgeon.


I prefer stand-up philosophy myself.
 
2013-09-20 02:10:46 PM  
Americans are devoted to free market capitalism unsullied by the tyrannical hand of government. At least in theory. In reality once corruption or extreme business cycles expose Malthusian limitations of economic wealth we immediately cry out for government assistance. In American history perhaps only the Great Depression laid this paradox more bare than the financial crisis of 2008.

Once the corruption and extreme business cycles created the mess, most of us were calling for regulations to prevent it from happening again.

And, for the record, it wasn't just the people who bought into bad mortgages that cried out for assistance.  It was the selfsame dumbfarks that caused the mess in the first place who were looking for bailouts.
 
2013-09-20 02:11:32 PM  
Americans are devoted to free market capitalism unsullied by the tyrannical hand of government.

It's right there in the Constitution!
 
2013-09-20 02:11:39 PM  
From their website:

Discovery Institute is a nonpartisan public policy think tank conducting research on technology, science and culture, economics and foreign affairs.

From wiki:

The Discovery Institute is a U.S. non-profit public policy think tank based in Seattle, Washington, best known for its advocacy of intelligent design. Its Teach the Controversy campaign aims to teach creationist anti-evolution beliefs in United States public high school science courses alongside accepted scientific theories, positing a scientific controversy exists over these subjects.
 fakeplus.com
 
2013-09-20 02:14:28 PM  

Diogenes: Americans are devoted to free market capitalism unsullied by the tyrannical hand of government. At least in theory. In reality once corruption or extreme business cycles expose Malthusian limitations of economic wealth we immediately cry out for government assistance. In American history perhaps only the Great Depression laid this paradox more bare than the financial crisis of 2008.

Once the corruption and extreme business cycles created the mess, most of us were calling for regulations to prevent it from happening again.

And, for the record, it wasn't just the people who bought into bad mortgages that cried out for assistance.  It was the selfsame dumbfarks that caused the mess in the first place who were looking for bailouts.


On the plus side, they're no longer blaming negroes for getting free mortgages from Jimmy Carter.  This is a kind of progress.
 
2013-09-20 02:38:09 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.

That's quite a prestigious title for a professional ignorant gasbag, I'll give him that.


Analytic philosopher eh?  Well hell, I want to be Mathemagician then.
 
2013-09-20 02:38:30 PM  
Mentat: Stopped reading right there.

It wasn't just greed though, it was greed, and stupidity and stupid greed, and greedy stupidity.

// IE, who the hell gets an ARM when mortgage interest rates were already the lowest they had been in 30 years? My folks remember the days of 15%+ mortgages. They looked at things during the bubble and were like "4% mortgage? Why the hell would anyone want that to adjust?"
 
2013-09-20 02:51:23 PM  

Rapmaster2000: On the plus side, they're no longer blaming negroes for getting free mortgages from Jimmy Carter.  This is a kind of progress.


Give it a week.
 
2013-09-20 02:55:01 PM  
this gem from a linked article:


MYTH #3: The transactions were too complicated for people to understand
This is the most popular and insulting of the bedrock beliefs regarding the crisis.Richards points to the movie "" as the cinematic version of this idea.The basic idea is that a bunch of Phd's at the bottom of firm hierarchies developed products too complicated for even banking senior executives to decipher.As a result, when the crisis hit no one could possibly detangle the mess.



in 2007, AIG admitted that it could not value its derivatives properly. PWC couldn't figure it out either.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122368147261224877.html
 
2013-09-20 02:55:21 PM  
It's almost as though everything we've been telling you the fascists were going to do is coming true.
 
2013-09-20 03:03:46 PM  

Rapmaster2000: rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.

WTF is an analytic philosopher?  It sounds like an abstract surgeon.


It's basically a term for "I got a generic mainstream philosophy degree with no specialization." But analytic philosophy is also more or less incompatible with intelligent design, so there's that.

/BA in Philosophy.
 
2013-09-20 03:57:56 PM  
TFA, translated: The global economy was brought to its knees by poor (read: black) people forcing banks to hand them jumbo-sized mortgages.

This lie will never go away, will it?
 
2013-09-20 03:59:44 PM  

lordargent: Mentat: Stopped reading right there.

It wasn't just greed though, it was greed, and stupidity and stupid greed, and greedy stupidity.

// IE, who the hell gets an ARM when mortgage interest rates were already the lowest they had been in 30 years? My folks remember the days of 15%+ mortgages. They looked at things during the bubble and were like "4% mortgage? Why the hell would anyone want that to adjust?"


Well, Mr. Rand-Greenspan, chief banker of the Federal Reserve. said that they were being stupid when taking out fixed rate mortgages. After all, markets will regulate themselves better than the government ever could.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said Monday that Americans' preference for long-term, fixed-rate mortgages means many are paying more than necessary for their homes and suggested consumers would benefit if lenders offered more alternatives.

He said a Fed study suggested many homeowners could have saved tens of thousands of dollars in the last decade if they had ARMs. Those savings would not have been realized, however, had interest rates shot up.
"American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage," Greenspan said.


2/23/2004

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/fed/2004-02-23-greenspa n- debt_x.htm
 
2013-09-20 04:03:03 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: TFA, translated: The global economy was brought to its knees by poor (read: black) people forcing banks to hand them jumbo-sized mortgages.

This lie will never go away, will it?


1. Stop trying to insert racism into every farking thing
2. If you think that the federal push to give loans to those who couldn't afford them had no effect upon the economic crisis then you really don't understand the underlying cause.
 
2013-09-20 04:03:59 PM  

cman: Mentat: No matter what you hear to the contrary greed didn't create the housing bubble.

Stopped reading right there.

Well, greed alone didn't cause it

In every disaster there isn't just one cause; it results from many actions that come together that causes the disaster.

To say that greed had nothing to do with it is a lie, but to say that it was the only reason is just as wrong.


you're right.  It was greed AND a regulatory system so lax that it allowed financial companies to take what they knew were insane risks in pursuit of short term gains.

Thus,  the CFPB, a new, Strong regulator whose mandate is make the system work better for CONSUMERS, which brings it, at time in direct opposition to regulators like the FDIC and the Federal Reserve whose madate it is to ensure the safety and security of the Banking SYSTEM.  So, for example, when the Federal Reserve was asked to regulate "interchange" or "swipe" fees recently (what the big banks can charge retailer to process a transaction a consumer pays for with a debit or credit card), at the very last minute of their rule making, the Fed Doubled the maximum allowable interchange fee from $0.12 per transaction to $0.24 transaction (whchi was down from an average of almost $0.50 per tranaction formerly)  The did do, they admitted under pressure from the banks who maintained the $0.12 per transaction would cut too deeply into their profit margins.

Since the Fed is only tasked with ensuring the BANKS are okay (which also means profitable) that argument won they day and the counter-argument about how much merchants, and therefore by extension counsumers would SAVE with the lower fee  wasn't taken  into consideration.

Look at what the CFPB is doing these days:
-Setting rules for "qualfied" mortagages,
-Making loan terms and disclosures clearer and easier to read and comapre from one loan company to another.
-Requiring you to get home ownership counseling before recieving a "high cost" (read "stupid to accept') mortgage
-Forcing major credit cards issuer to refund $1 billion and counting to people they lied to about optional prducts and services
-Helping educate people abut various finacial products and services
-making sure Car dealers don;t practice racial discrimination
-Trying to reign in fees on pre-paid debit cards
_considering whether "mandatory arbitration" clauses in consumer finacial contacts are fair

exactly what is "Tyrannical" about any of it?

what makes people so mad about the CFPB is that Dodd-Frank took the designation of INDEPENDENT regulatory Agency (like the FCC, SEC, Fed, FDIC, etc etc) seriously and gave it a funding mechanism that meant it gets its money from outisde the federal budget and therefore it can't be "defunded" by some herp-a-derp congressman
 
2013-09-20 04:20:59 PM  

RedPhoenix122: I prefer stand-up philosophy myself.


That could be an awesome new type of club.  Stand-up Philosophers.  Two Drink Minimum.  Open Mike Night.  Debate Night.  Like a comedy club, except not funny.

Except when the author of this garbage article shows up to speak.  Then it's hilarious.
 
2013-09-20 04:22:34 PM  

RedPhoenix122: Rapmaster2000: WTF is an analytic philosopher?  It sounds like an abstract surgeon.

I prefer stand-up philosophy myself.


Oooohh. So you're a bullshiat artist?

Did you bullshiat last week?
Did you try to bullshiat last week?
 
2013-09-20 04:26:54 PM  
The problem with the so-called free market is that when individuals are allowed to act freely they quickly begin to act together in collusion against others with the result that the free market is no longer free.
 
2013-09-20 04:27:37 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: TFA, translated: The global economy was brought to its knees by poor (read: black) people forcing banks to hand them jumbo-sized mortgages.

This lie will never go away, will it?


It is useful, when fighting thie particularly pernicious piece of pevarication to point propounders of the same to a study done by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (a sub-agency of the US Dept of Treasury and one of the heavy-hitters in regulating the financial system) that concluded that not only did the Community Reinvestment Act loans NOT cause the financial crisis, but they so outperformed sub-prime loans that they actually SAVED many banks from going under completely during the crisis
 
2013-09-20 04:51:08 PM  

cman:
2. If you think that the federal push to give loans to those who couldn't afford them had no effect upon the economic crisis then you really don't understand the underlying cause.


If you think there was a "federal push to give loans to those who couldn't afford them," then you're a moron. Private banks gave out shat loans, and gave them out to non-poor people.

Facts: deal with it.

growlersoftware.com

growlersoftware.com
 
2013-09-20 05:03:19 PM  

impaler: cman:
2. If you think that the federal push to give loans to those who couldn't afford them had no effect upon the economic crisis then you really don't understand the underlying cause.

If you think there was a "federal push to give loans to those who couldn't afford them," then you're a moron. Private banks gave out shat loans, and gave them out to non-poor people.

Facts: deal with it.

[growlersoftware.com image 586x443]

[growlersoftware.com image 335x270]


The underlying cause of the financial crisis was denial.

I didn't say that lending to those who couldn't afford them was the primary cause, I said it was one of the causes. There were many many reasons why the economic crisis happened. To think that pushing loans to those who couldn't afford them did nothing to help cause it is ludicrous at best.
 
2013-09-20 05:48:05 PM  

Learned Hand Job: Except when the author of this garbage article shows up to speak. Then it's hilarious.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HLnTPxMho

Pretty much.
 
2013-09-20 06:13:34 PM  

cman: To think that pushing loans to those who couldn't afford them did nothing to help cause it is ludicrous at best.


To think that pushing loans to Reptilians did nothing to help cause it is ludicrous at best.
 
2013-09-20 06:27:39 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: From Wikipedia:

Jay Wesley Richards is an American analytic philosopher and intelligent design advocate.[1][2][3][4] He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and formerly the Program Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).

And, I think I know all I need to about this clown.


So he's a total farking retard. Got it.
 
2013-09-20 07:02:11 PM  

Mentat: No matter what you hear to the contrary greed didn't create the housing bubble.

Stopped reading right there.


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to- aid-mortgage-lending.html?ref=stevenaholmes

In 99 they knew what they were doing.
 
2013-09-20 08:45:39 PM  
dsmith42: Well, Mr. Rand-Greenspan, chief banker of the Federal Reserve. said that they were being stupid when taking out fixed rate mortgages.

In your linked article, he was quoting a federal study that suggested homeowners could have saved money over the past decade (past, meaning prior to 2004).

In 1994, the avg rate for the year was 8.39, in 2004, it was 5.84. ARMs would have adjusted downward, whereas 30 year fixed would require refinancing. So back in 1994, you could have come out ahead with an ARM.

HOWEVER, getting an ARM in 2004 would not have been a good idea for the majority of purchasers. Interest rates were at a historical low, so that rates would likely go up by the time the ARM adjustment came around.

Those savings would not have been realized, however, had interest rates shot up.

Exactly

Ironically, in 2012, the interest rates tanked due to the fallout from the above (3.66% average for the year).

// in 1985, you were looking at around 12.5% interest rates, OUCH!

// from that article, all greenspan is saying is that there should be more alternatives. That doesn't necessarily mean ARM.
 
2013-09-20 10:22:55 PM  
Bush/Ramsey recession continues on 5 yrs
 
2013-09-20 11:52:29 PM  

Diogenes: Once the corruption and extreme business cycles created the mess, most of us were calling for regulations to prevent it from happening again.


Except for the Democrats, who called the attempts to strengthen regulations "a lynching" (2:24 in), and those who were pushing for better regulations were called racist.
 
2013-09-21 12:07:32 AM  

lordargent: Mentat: Stopped reading right there.

It wasn't just greed though, it was greed, and stupidity and stupid greed, and greedy stupidity.


There was nothing stupid about it; fulfilling the promise that everybody, regardless of income or credit, could buy a house was the most brilliant election strategy the Democrats ever thought of. It worked so well that Republicans had to jump on the bandwagon, too.
 
2013-09-21 12:13:27 AM  

Magorn: It was greed AND a regulatory system so lax that it allowed financial companies to take what they knew were insane risks in pursuit of short term gains.


Even where the regulations weren't lax they were destructive. The FED's web site used to have the transcript of a speech given by the head of one of the FED branches where he was telling banks that giving more no-down-payment loans to "underserved" (e.g., poor) borrowers would help those under the CRA to meet their CRA obligations, and would help those not under the CRA to avoid being forced into the CRA. Of course, the speech is no longer on the FED's web site... the Ministry of Truth scrubbed it.
 
2013-09-21 12:15:01 AM  

Magorn: TofuTheAlmighty: TFA, translated: The global economy was brought to its knees by poor (read: black) people forcing banks to hand them jumbo-sized mortgages.

This lie will never go away, will it?

It is useful, when fighting thie particularly pernicious piece of pevarication to point propounders of the same to a study done by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (a sub-agency of the US Dept of Treasury and one of the heavy-hitters in regulating the financial system) that concluded that not only did the Community Reinvestment Act loans NOT cause the financial crisis, but they so outperformed sub-prime loans that they actually SAVED many banks from going under completely during the crisis


The federal government says that the federal government didn't cause the bubble/meltdown. That certainly convinces me.
 
2013-09-21 02:29:58 AM  

DrPainMD: Diogenes: Once the corruption and extreme business cycles created the mess, most of us were calling for regulations to prevent it from happening again.

Except for the Democrats, who called the attempts to strengthen regulations "a lynching" (2:24 in), and those who were pushing for better regulations were called racist.


Not all Democrats, just the corporate Third-Wayers like Larry Summers and Robert Rubin.  Democrats like Elliot Spitzer and Robin Carnihan tried to do things at the state level but repeatedly found themselves blocked by the Feds.  There's a reason why Larry Summers will never be Fed Chairman and it's because liberal Democrats have long memories.
 
2013-09-21 02:36:59 AM  

DrPainMD: Magorn: It was greed AND a regulatory system so lax that it allowed financial companies to take what they knew were insane risks in pursuit of short term gains.

Even where the regulations weren't lax they were destructive. The FED's web site used to have the transcript of a speech given by the head of one of the FED branches where he was telling banks that giving more no-down-payment loans to "underserved" (e.g., poor) borrowers would help those under the CRA to meet their CRA obligations, and would help those not under the CRA to avoid being forced into the CRA. Of course, the speech is no longer on the FED's web site... the Ministry of Truth scrubbed it.


The problem with your theory is that the majority of subprime loans were refinancings.  By the time the bubble burst, the market for first time buyers had been largely tapped out.  The demand was being driven by house flippers who owned multiple homes and by mortgage companies and investment banks who were so overleveraged that they couldn't stop issuing mortgages even though they knew the crash was coming.

Massive supply of houses + inflated demand + looming recession due to rising commodities prices = *pop*
 
2013-09-21 08:21:46 AM  
i.my.afterdawn.com
 
2013-09-21 02:00:32 PM  
DrPainMD: There was nothing stupid about it; fulfilling the promise that everybody, regardless of income or credit, could buy a house was the most brilliant election strategy the Democrats ever thought of.

No, the stupid was the people who were overextending themselves on ARMs when interest rates on 30 year fixed loans were ~5%.
 
2013-09-21 05:41:37 PM  
Think the NSA is bad? The CFPB's also gearing up to collect every credit card transaction in the country and stick it in a massive database. This government won't stop until it has every piece of data on you that exists. The next Nixon who comes along with an enemies list will have plenty of material to work with in exacting retribution.
 
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