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(The Newspaper)   Cities ask Ohio Supreme Court to waive due process for camera tickets because "the financial impact upon cities could be significant" if drivers have the right to a fair trial   (thenewspaper.com) divider line 109
    More: Followup, Ohio Supreme Court, Ohio, fair trial, due process, Redflex, amicus brief, waive, speed cameras  
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8246 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Sep 2013 at 2:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-19 02:34:05 PM  
Do they have a permit to run a racket?
 
2013-09-19 02:38:53 PM  
Due Process? I thought we got rid of that when the PATRIOT act was passed.
 
2013-09-19 02:39:42 PM  
New Rome approves.
 
2013-09-19 02:40:12 PM  
New Miami approves.
 
2013-09-19 02:41:27 PM  
I would like to think that the Ohio Supreme Court would tell the cities that maybe, perhaps, they should have looked into the constitutionality of red light cameras and kangaroo courts BEFORE investing in them.

But then I realized this is the same court that ruled cops can determine how fast you were going using just their eyes, and don't need any of those pesky radar doo-hickeys.
 
2013-09-19 02:41:49 PM  
It might cost the cities millions but the tickets were already issued.  I assume that the issuing of tickets made everyone safer because that's what tickets do.  That's all the cities really wanted, right?  Then we're all good.  Case closed.
 
2013-09-19 02:42:06 PM  

Kygz: New Miami approves.


Did the company that owns the cameras they HAD ever get them back after the judge ordered the Sheriff to confiscate them? I would love to have seen them take them down in broad daylight.
 
2013-09-19 02:42:29 PM  
But...but...the red light cameras are there for public safety reasons!
 
2013-09-19 02:42:31 PM  
"Dumbass" tag waiting at the courthouse?
 
2013-09-19 02:42:59 PM  

ThoughtSpy: kangaroo courts


FTFA:  Redflex Traffic Systems of Australia

*snicker*
 
2013-09-19 02:43:08 PM  
Stupid Constitution, costing us money.

So, how does this work with the tea party republitards? On the one hand, you're making it easier for authority to screw people (which is good) but on the other hand the money goes to the government (which is bad).
 
2013-09-19 02:43:36 PM  
A few well-placed campaign donations should clear this mess right up.
 
2013-09-19 02:45:40 PM  

hitlersbrain: Stupid Constitution, costing us money.

So, how does this work with the tea party republitards? On the one hand, you're making it easier for authority to screw people (which is good) but on the other hand the money goes to the government (which is bad).


Duh oh! I forgot the cardinal rule! Only fine poor people and minorities. Silly me.
 
2013-09-19 02:47:44 PM  
Yeah, it would be unfair to return the money to people who had it unfairly taken from them.
 
2013-09-19 02:47:47 PM  
Why does the amount of financial damage have  anything to do with what's legal?

Toss 'em out on their dollar-padded asses!
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-09-19 02:47:50 PM  

majestykelf: But...but...the red light cameras are there for public safety reasons!


^THIS^
 
2013-09-19 02:47:51 PM  
I think the fine should go to the maker of the Red light cameras.
 
2013-09-19 02:48:19 PM  
We need to stop allowing poor people to have trials. Just ship them off to a work camp.
 
2013-09-19 02:50:55 PM  
$afety
 
2013-09-19 02:51:28 PM  
Hope they remember who elected them into office to begin with, and if a bunch of people got tickets and were deprived of their due process of law... then they'll sure as hell come back November and vote them out. This is politics at the local level in a swing state, we Ohioans have very little issue voting D to R, or R to D if the previous guys pissed us off. And we have no issues charging our own governors with crimes and convicting them, like Bob Taft.

Money doesn't speak all that loudly in a state like Ohio. Not loudly enough to drown out pissed off citizens with fines issued from a red light camera at any rate.
 
2013-09-19 02:53:12 PM  
To these people and any fascists that support them.   FARK YOU!
 
2013-09-19 02:53:54 PM  

mcreadyblue: We need to stop allowing poor people to have trials. Just ship them off to a work camp.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-09-19 02:54:55 PM  

Weatherkiss: Money doesn't speak all that loudly in a state like Ohio


If it didn't you wouldn't have these cameras to begin with.
 
2013-09-19 02:57:35 PM  

Headso: Weatherkiss: Money doesn't speak all that loudly in a state like Ohio

If it didn't you wouldn't have these cameras to begin with.


And if it did, we wouldn't have this brought to court to begin with, or numerous cities in Ohio overturning red light cameras and subsequent incumbent politicians replaced the following election.
 
2013-09-19 03:00:35 PM  
I propose the monies for refunds be garnished from the wages of every asshole city official that aided the implementation of the program.
 
2013-09-19 03:01:04 PM  
So if the cities prevail on this, it should okay to take money from anyone through whatever means and then claim hardship when you have to give it back, right?
 
2013-09-19 03:01:09 PM  
That's farking awesome!
 
2013-09-19 03:01:40 PM  
they are taking all the red light cams here in SoCal.... too many problems .... saved the city nothing.
 
2013-09-19 03:01:49 PM  
Make the Cities and local counties give the fine money up to the state.  Then we'll see how much these cameras are about safety and if the cities keep running them or not.
 
2013-09-19 03:02:48 PM  
Once got pulled over after going through a stop-light intersection. I know that the light was green, because the CD I wanted to listen to had fallen by my feet and I desperately wanted a red light at the intersection in question so I could pick the damn thing up. No flash-bulb fired (which it wouldn't have because it was a green light).

Lo and behold a mile and a half past the intersection I get pulled over and written a ticket for running the red light.

I then tried to get the photo-proof that should exist, given that it was a red-light camera via the local version of the freedom of information act. I was told the photo no longer existed because the issuing officer would have overwritten the entry when they manually issued the ticket. So I said, fine, I'll need the database records that audit such transactions. But was told they didn't exist either.

So I figured I'd go to my court date and ask for an extension, explaining that the Hoffman Estates police had failed to adhere to my request for information. After all, if the red-light camera can prove my guilt, why shouldn't I be able to use it to prove my innocence.

When I got to court the Judge gave a little sermon before traffic court praising the gallant crime-fighters of the Hoffman Estates police department and effectively saying that it was effectively useless to contradict them in his court as he finds them infallible heroes and instruments of justice, blah blah blah.

At the end of the day the only solace I had was in knowing I'd caused the city to spend money on my presence at traffic court and offset ever so slightly the completely bogus fine I had to pay.

/CSB?
 
2013-09-19 03:02:50 PM  
Redflex in its court briefs claims a loss in the case could cost cities $100 million. Optotraffic, a competing camera vendor, predicted "copy-cat lawsuits" would be filed in every jurisdiction. Walker's lawyers insisted these concerns are overblown.

No, they're not overblown.  What they are, or should be considered to be, are  farking non-concerns.  The fact that your behavior being found unconstitutional would be  expensive for you isn't a farking mitigating factor.
 
2013-09-19 03:03:31 PM  

Weatherkiss: Headso: Weatherkiss: Money doesn't speak all that loudly in a state like Ohio

If it didn't you wouldn't have these cameras to begin with.

And if it did, we wouldn't have this brought to court to begin with, or numerous cities in Ohio overturning red light cameras and subsequent incumbent politicians replaced the following election.


Headso has a point, though. Ohio has a well-earned reputation as a place where cops issue frequent and ridiculous traffic tickets for anything they can.
 
2013-09-19 03:03:40 PM  
Some road toll systems(automated) removed due process to be able to avoid the courts with all those tickets that were errors(thousands of errors per day).
Dispute a ticket? Call the toll operator customer service, then get bumped to manager, then to the in-house Arbitrator(completely biased) and then finally if you still are in dispute, they cancel renewals on your drivers license and insurance.
Next stage is filing a court case all yourself against the tolling company for that error ticket $3 toll, plus trying to get all court costs for your time and hardship.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

/1 example is British Columbia, where due process has disappeared from 'certain' traffic tickets, cause due process costs money.
//Washington State even has your old license plates on file from 19 years ago.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Vancouver-WA-man-gets-520-toll-bill- bu t-never-drove-on-the-bridge--147056275.html
///Even a 1% error rate could be 1,000 vehicles per day in error.
 
2013-09-19 03:03:53 PM  
img2-2.timeinc.net

It's all about the benjamins
 
2013-09-19 03:05:55 PM  
They should send all the officials who signed the deal with Redflex Traffic Systems of Australian to a penis colony in that country for 10 years.
 
2013-09-19 03:06:01 PM  

bighairyguy: So if the cities prevail on this, it should okay to take money from anyone through whatever means and then claim hardship when you have to give it back, right?


If the cities prevail on this, you can expect a large number of incumbent politicians who supported the measure to not only lose the next election, but to quietly fade into obscurity and to never have an elected position in Ohio government for the rest of their life (or at least a good 10-20 years depending on who and where). Nothing brings out voter turn-out in an election year like a bunch of pissed off citizens who were fined by a red light camera, or know someone who was fined by a red light camera. People who have never voted before will make a point to go to the election booth just to give a big "fark You" to the politicians who supported that kind of thing.

It's one thing to get some of that sweet money from the red light cameras, but it's another to lose your job and any hope of a future campaign based on that. You don't shiat where you eat.
 
2013-09-19 03:10:28 PM  

stewbert: Weatherkiss: Headso: Weatherkiss: Money doesn't speak all that loudly in a state like Ohio

If it didn't you wouldn't have these cameras to begin with.

And if it did, we wouldn't have this brought to court to begin with, or numerous cities in Ohio overturning red light cameras and subsequent incumbent politicians replaced the following election.

Headso has a point, though. Ohio has a well-earned reputation as a place where cops issue frequent and ridiculous traffic tickets for anything they can.


It does. And it sucks. But it comes down to how much Ohio can tolerate. We can tolerate speed traps and bullshiat the police officers and staties give us.

That tolerance slips when it comes to automated red light cameras.
 
2013-09-19 03:12:45 PM  

johnny_vegas: [img2-2.timeinc.net image 400x300]

It's all about the benjamins


Pentiums
 
2013-09-19 03:16:03 PM  
Just call it a tax.  You see, it's not illegal to run a red light, or to speed your honor, we just tax people for the extra special privilege of doing so.  Just don't pay attention to the points system, where we also take their license away.

You can take everyone's rights away, if you call it a tax.
 
2013-09-19 03:16:36 PM  
Ohio... needs it's own tag. It is a near-featureless expanse of farm fields broken up only by corrupt jurisdictions. Famous for it's speed traps and the Drew Carey Show.

api.ning.com
 
2013-09-19 03:17:07 PM  

ThoughtSpy: But then I realized this is the same court that ruled cops can determine how fast you were going using just their eyes, and don't need any of those pesky radar doo-hickeys.


California does the same thing.
 
2013-09-19 03:19:45 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: Ohio... needs it's own tag. It is a near-featureless expanse of farm fields broken up only by corrupt jurisdictions. Famous for it's speed traps and the Drew Carey Show.

[api.ning.com image 338x338]


We're famous for our astronauts too.

i.imgur.com

/fark you, NASA. Dayton deserved one of the shuttles for all we've given you.
 
2013-09-19 03:20:37 PM  
This is going to get worse in the next five years as automated cars will destroy these honey pots for the police force. Safety my ass. We should all paint giant middle fingers on the side of our cars.
 
2013-09-19 03:22:56 PM  

JPINFV: ThoughtSpy: But then I realized this is the same court that ruled cops can determine how fast you were going using just their eyes, and don't need any of those pesky radar doo-hickeys.

California does the same thing.


I don't know how California or Ohio does it, but in nearly every state you can give a speeding ticket by timing a car move between two landmarks that you have measured off, then calculating their average speed in order to do so in the measured time.  This is considered eyeballing, and it is what cops use to have to do before radar guns were invented.  I knew an old school trooper that liked to still do it that way, because radar detectors don't pick up stop watches and binoculars.  Of course you have to be good at math to pull this off...
 
2013-09-19 03:23:03 PM  
The real winner with all of these cameras are the companies that make them. They don't give a fark about right or wrong. They want the money from their cut of the fine. That is their free money stream. They own the equipment, and issue the "fine" and give the city a cut.

It could be stopped by making it illegal for a private company to profit from traffic violations, or a law that says the city must own the equipment that issues the ticket for accountability and transparency.
 
2013-09-19 03:23:16 PM  
All is strange and vague. Are we dead, or is this Ohio?
 
2013-09-19 03:23:23 PM  

GWSuperfan: Due Process? I thought we got rid of that when the PATRIOT act was passed.


Hey man, don't think about that.  You're safe and that's all that matters right?  It's ok if Uncle Sam has a little peek into your life to make you safe right?  Carry on citizen.  You don't need guns either, btw.
 
2013-09-19 03:23:43 PM  
Fark them, fark them all and this red light camera crap. I got tagged by one here in Florida last year. A $264 ticket for making a right turn on red without coming to a complete stop. I went to fight the ticket as Florida law is quite clear: You don't have to stop at a red light when making a right turn if it is safe and prudent to do so. I thought my defense was airtight as there was video of it. The video shows that I braked to what appeared to be under ten miles an hour, then proceeded to make the turn. The video also shows that there was no traffic at the intersection nor did any traffic enter the intersection after my turn or to the end of the video (about ten seconds).

 I went in front of the Magistrate, cited the law and point out that you could clearly see in the video that there was no traffic. The magistrate looked at me and said "guilty, you were not safe nor prudent. There could have been a car making a uturn."  WHAT IN THE HOLY FRIGGIN HELL, WE HAD VIDEO THAT WAS PROOF THERE WASN'T ANOTHER CAR AROUND......ARGGGGGGGGGGGG.

  The moral of my story is that the magistrate wasn't interested in the law, his only job was to deny an appeal by anyone, pass Go and collect the counties $264. While I waited to be called I watched about thirty people go up before me, most using the same defense. Not one was found innocent, not one. I can't tell you how much it tickles my heart every time I read a story that someone shot out one if their precious little cameras. Screw these people, screw em hard.
 
2013-09-19 03:23:58 PM  

JPINFV: ThoughtSpy: But then I realized this is the same court that ruled cops can determine how fast you were going using just their eyes, and don't need any of those pesky radar doo-hickeys.

California does the same thing.


I believe visual speed estimation is acceptable in most states as probable cause as long as the officer estimates you are more than slightly exceeding the speed limit.
 
2013-09-19 03:24:24 PM  
DC is the mecca for this red light & speed camera shiate.

/the only department in the DC government that functions efficiently is parking enforcement. Try doing anything else like have a building permit issued and you'd be well advised to pack a lunch and plan on taking the whole day to take care of bidness.
 
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