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(Slate)   Twas circumcision and fringe groups that broke the internet, not those videos of your Mom   (slate.com) divider line 443
    More: Sad, systematic review, marketplace of ideas, penile cancers, male sexuality, circumcisions, amputations, female genital mutilation, mutilation  
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7976 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 5:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 10:41:27 PM  

Jill'sNipple: They shouldn't cut on children, period.


buh.  mountain from mole hills.       I'm cut, so is my dad, grand dads weren't, most of my cousins are uncut.  Health-wise the extended family seems to come out a little easier with being cut from our small unscientific census.  So, my sisters had the kids circumcised.   The pediatrician in the bunch did the deeper literature dive and decided to do so as well with her boy.    The data is not really overwhelming unless you live in an HIV dense setting.

Contrary to most polemics, guys with foreskins do not have healthier cocks. Clinical data is gigantic on the topic.  Really.   stack up the column of morbidity for the two groups and it's in favor or circumcision. That includes the guys that have complications. Foreskin guys get complications as well.  Tight urethra affects both groups at about the same rate with different root pathology.

It seems condoms and foreskin are a tricky combo, and condoms are a fact of life for realistic sexual adults for the foreseeable future.   Of my uncut friends that can manage to talk about this kind of topic, 2 find ejaculation with a condom either impossible, or painful, the other 2 seem to have no issues at all.

Once you are monogamous and she enjoys your cock and you treat your pecker in a manner appropriate for cut or uncut the difference is negligible.   For that period(s) in a man's life where he is with new partners condoms are not optional.  Our genes, and "nature" could care less about condoms.  In fact, natural selection is actively hostile to safe sex.
 
2013-09-18 11:02:26 PM  

hardinparamedic: profplump: We don't give infants pain medication or heavy sedation, but since we have no way to measure pain objectively -- only by patient self-reporting -- that doesn't seem like a reliable statistic to compare between adults and infants.

What are you even talking about?

And yes, in a clinical in-patient setting, a person getting a circumcision as a neonate will get, at the very least, EMLA cream, and in an actual childrens hospital will get versed and Fentanyl.


Lolwut? As an actual RN in an actual NICU in an actual children's hospital, how full of shiat can one person possibly be? You truly think a newborn gets fentanyl and versed for a circumcision? Try 24 hours of Tylenol, some emla, and maybe a nerve block depending on the obstetrician.
 
2013-09-18 11:10:30 PM  
It's just like when we realized dirty hands were making us sick, we started cutting them off...
Or when dirty teeth were killing us... Pull 'em out!
 
2013-09-18 11:12:17 PM  

monstour: It's just like when we realized dirty hands were making us sick, we started cutting them off...
Or when dirty teeth were killing us... Pull 'em out!


Exaggerations like this get us nowhere.
 
2013-09-18 11:16:24 PM  

surrybee: Lolwut? As an actual RN in an actual NICU in an actual children's hospital, how full of shiat can one person possibly be? You truly think a newborn gets fentanyl and versed for a circumcision? Try 24 hours of Tylenol, some emla, and maybe a nerve block depending on the obstetrician.


And as someone who ALSO works in a Level 4 Surgical NICU which has urology and general surgery fellows performing circumcisions, they do get versed and fentanyl, per our facility's pain control policy for procedures.

Anyone outside of the neonatal period, per our facility policy, either ends up in a starlight room (semi-surgical area where conscious sedation procedures are performed) or in an OR.

Also, "actual RN"? I'm curious if you're pointing out your qualifications, or if you're trying to make a subtle insult there.
 
2013-09-18 11:18:24 PM  

MaestroJ: monstour: It's just like when we realized dirty hands were making us sick, we started cutting them off...
Or when dirty teeth were killing us... Pull 'em out!

Exaggerations like this get us nowhere.


sorry, i guess a know a few dudes who got cut later in life, and probably would have preferred having their teeth pulled...
 
2013-09-18 11:22:53 PM  

monstour: MaestroJ: monstour: It's just like when we realized dirty hands were making us sick, we started cutting them off...
Or when dirty teeth were killing us... Pull 'em out!

Exaggerations like this get us nowhere.

sorry, i guess a know a few dudes who got cut later in life, and probably would have preferred having their teeth pulled...


monstour: MaestroJ: monstour: It's just like when we realized dirty hands were making us sick, we started cutting them off...
Or when dirty teeth were killing us... Pull 'em out!

Exaggerations like this get us nowhere.

sorry, i guess a know a few dudes who got cut later in life, and probably would have preferred having their teeth pulled...


you know, instead of brushing them twice a day
 
2013-09-18 11:26:58 PM  
 
2013-09-18 11:28:17 PM  

hardinparamedic: surrybee: Lolwut? As an actual RN in an actual NICU in an actual children's hospital, how full of shiat can one person possibly be? You truly think a newborn gets fentanyl and versed for a circumcision? Try 24 hours of Tylenol, some emla, and maybe a nerve block depending on the obstetrician.

And as someone who ALSO works in a Level 4 Surgical NICU which has urology and general surgery fellows performing circumcisions, they do get versed and fentanyl, per our facility's pain control policy for procedures.

Anyone outside of the neonatal period, per our facility policy, either ends up in a starlight room (semi-surgical area where conscious sedation procedures are performed) or in an OR.

Also, "actual RN"? I'm curious if you're pointing out your qualifications, or if you're trying to make a subtle insult there.


Really? You give versed and fentanyl for circumcisions? So your non-nicu patients...they get this level of pain management as well? I truly find that hard to believe. If all your nicu patients get fentanyl and versed prior to circumcision, then congratulations on being far far ahead of the curve. The simple fact is that the vast majority of infants who are circumcised do not receive that kind of pain relief.
 
2013-09-18 11:30:13 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 11:40:05 PM  
Serious question:  is this like a truther thing?

One theory of 9/11 trutherism is that it attracts people because it's imitation activism:  it allows truthers to see themselves as serious freedom-fighting activist Rage Against The Machiners, but with the comfort of focusing on a compartmentalized issue that doesn't require them to volunteer at a soup kitchen or do anything other than Photoshop red arrows on JPEGs and label them "squibs."

Is this the same for the anti-circumcision crowd?  They can get pretty frothy and incensed about the issue, and even go so far as to organize a ballot initiative now and then, but in the end it's just this isolated thing they can say they stand for, without the emotional obligation of getting incensed about a real thing like poverty.
 
2013-09-18 11:42:33 PM  

surrybee: You give versed and fentanyl for circumcisions?


Our facility is attempting to attain magnet status, so they're pretty progressive and aggressive in their pain control protocols and policies, and much of the pain control policies and standing orders in place are Nurse and Mid-level driven. In NICU and PICU patients, their threshold to administer is pretty low since these patients have concurrent issues. (We don't do well babies/regular OB, period.)

Surgery has a policy that if they're getting a circ (we regularly see kids 2-3 years old who are getting them due to continual UTI or other issues), they do it in general surgery or starlight. They'll snow them, drop an LMA, and keep them snowed through the procedure.

EMLA, if USED CORRECTLY, can provide some pretty powerful pain control (I've seen ER fellows and attendings use it on I&Ds for cutaneous abscesses)

surrybee: The simple fact is that the vast majority of infants who are circumcised do not receive that kind of pain relief.


No, you're absolutely right. I'm sure as a NICU RN, you have the problem working with older neonatologists with the prevailing belief that premies/newborn infants don't feel pain. One of our sister facilities that handles the high risk OB/Delivery deals with this issue all the time - we will see patients on high frequency oscillatory ventilation who are taching away at 180/190 and the doctors still won't order pain control.

I personally think that if you're circumcising a newborn child, you should do so in a manner that the child feels absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be done at home, or in a pediatrician's office. (I've actually seen two patients almost die in the last four years from botched circumcisions and uncontrolled hemorrhage.)
 
2013-09-19 12:08:47 AM  

hardinparamedic: surrybee: You give versed and fentanyl for circumcisions?

Our facility is attempting to attain magnet status, so they're pretty progressive and aggressive in their pain control protocols and policies, and much of the pain control policies and standing orders in place are Nurse and Mid-level driven. In NICU and PICU patients, their threshold to administer is pretty low since these patients have concurrent issues. (We don't do well babies/regular OB, period.)

Surgery has a policy that if they're getting a circ (we regularly see kids 2-3 years old who are getting them due to continual UTI or other issues), they do it in general surgery or starlight. They'll snow them, drop an LMA, and keep them snowed through the procedure.

EMLA, if USED CORRECTLY, can provide some pretty powerful pain control (I've seen ER fellows and attendings use it on I&Ds for cutaneous abscesses)

surrybee: The simple fact is that the vast majority of infants who are circumcised do not receive that kind of pain relief.

No, you're absolutely right. I'm sure as a NICU RN, you have the problem working with older neonatologists with the prevailing belief that premies/newborn infants don't feel pain. One of our sister facilities that handles the high risk OB/Delivery deals with this issue all the time - we will see patients on high frequency oscillatory ventilation who are taching away at 180/190 and the doctors still won't order pain control.

I personally think that if you're circumcising a newborn child, you should do so in a manner that the child feels absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be done at home, or in a pediatrician's office. (I've actually seen two patients almost die in the last four years from botched circumcisions and uncontrolled hemorrhage.)


What my neonatologists do or don't believe about pain control is irrevelent (but your assumption is completely wrong). Our neonatologists aren't surgeons and don't perform circumcision.

Back on topic, how do you make a baby feel absolutely nothing? The procedure is painful. The recovery is painful. Unless you're going to snow a baby for a few days, it just can't be done.
 
2013-09-19 12:10:16 AM  
hardinparamedic: It shouldn't be done at home, or in a pediatrician's office. (I've actually seen two patients almost die in the last four years from botched circumcisions and uncontrolled hemorrhage.)

What's the general rule on hospitals and religious circumcisions?  Will they allow an outside mohel to perform one within a surgical area?  I've only ever been to one bris and it was in someone's home.

I'm pretty sure Manischewitz causes more pain than it blocks, though.  Seriously, why traumatize the kid twice?
 
2013-09-19 12:13:54 AM  

surrybee: how do you make a baby feel absolutely nothing?


By subjecting it to forty years of pointless, soul-crushing wage slavery in a world where out ideals consistently run contrary to our reality.

And booze.
 
2013-09-19 12:16:36 AM  

radarlove: surrybee: how do you make a baby feel absolutely nothing?

By subjecting it to forty years of pointless, soul-crushing wage slavery in a world where out ideals consistently run contrary to our reality.

And booze.


Well played.
 
2013-09-19 12:21:16 AM  

Xcott: Is this the same for the anti-circumcision crowd? They can get pretty frothy and incensed about the issue, and even go so far as to organize a ballot initiative now and then, but in the end it's just this isolated thing they can say they stand for, without the emotional obligation of getting incensed about a real thing like poverty.


I don't believe that a fertilized egg is a fully realized person, and as such I support the right of women to have abortions, but I understand the position of the pro-life crowd. They truly believe that any fertilized egg is now a new, functioning human being, and as such treat abortion as murder. They are incensed about a real, important thing in their minds: the murder of children. Poverty is a terrible thing, but they're thinking in terms of murder, which is a more important issue to them personally.

In the same way, anti-circumcision advocates tend to see circumcision as a mutilation of a child unable to give consent, done by parents for reasons that are ultimately unjustified or unwarranted. At best it is a meaningless exercise with relatively minor health improvements, and at worst causes lifelong medical issues. There is a real "emotional obligation" here. I don't think that parts of a child's anatomy should be amputated for aesthetic reasons or potential medical complications. I wouldn't clip the skin of a child's nose to potentially lessen the risk of prostate cancer. I wouldn't cut off a child's earlobes to potentially reduce its chance of heart disease. And I wouldn't permanently scar a baby's penis to potentially reduce its chance at contracting an STD.

It's a real thing to us. It's tantamount to child abuse. If you wait until the child is old enough to have an understanding of the risks and rewards inherent in the operation, by all means let that child make the decision for themselves. If you're a thirty year-old man who wants the procedure for whatever reason, knock yourself out. I just can't in good faith pretend to not be incensed that parents take amputation and mutilation of their children so casually and with so little respect for their child as its own individual, instead of their own property to do with as they want.
 
2013-09-19 12:37:25 AM  

Xcott: Serious question:  is this like a truther thing?

One theory of 9/11 trutherism is that it attracts people because it's imitation activism:  it allows truthers to see themselves as serious freedom-fighting activist Rage Against The Machiners, but with the comfort of focusing on a compartmentalized issue that doesn't require them to volunteer at a soup kitchen or do anything other than Photoshop red arrows on JPEGs and label them "squibs."

Is this the same for the anti-circumcision crowd?  They can get pretty frothy and incensed about the issue, and even go so far as to organize a ballot initiative now and then, but in the end it's just this isolated thing they can say they stand for, without the emotional obligation of getting incensed about a real thing like poverty.


Well, as you can see in the thread, it can stir emotions up. It got mine for a second on the previous page I'll admit. That is an interesting theory. Sometimes though, a legit cause doesn't necessarily call for marching or pouring money into something. Sometimes, all it takes is discussion and education.

Do I feel this is a legit cause? I do. I don't feel that trying to get something on a ballot will help it by any means, and as we've seen it just made people look insane (and really, I'll say openly that a large group on "my side" are out of their flippin' minds with the things they say).

I feel instead a story like mine is much more productive and educational than the sensationalism that people bring up. Reality's far more useful than the assumptions and characterizations people on both sides make. Half the time I see the stuff that the "intactivist" crowd says, I want to scream at them that they're not helping. But, that's not helped me really all that much. So, I just do my best to talk.

But I'll admit as the previous page shows, I have gotten worked up if it's more or less inferred that my story doesn't exist or doesn't matter.
 
2013-09-19 12:37:39 AM  
I haven't read all the comments, but has anyone yet pointed out that's it's not medically necessary? In fact if you have a boy, and you're on welfare they won't pay for it because it's an option, and not even recommended.
 
2013-09-19 12:52:58 AM  

haolegirl: I haven't read all the comments, but has anyone yet pointed out that's it's not medically necessary? In fact if you have a boy, and you're on welfare they won't pay for it because it's an option, and not even recommended.


It just clicked for me why there are so many uncut black guys...
 
2013-09-19 12:53:50 AM  
Why do people keep comparing the most invasive type of female circumcision with the least invasive type of male circumcision?

Yall do realize there's more than one type of both male and female circumcision, right?
 
2013-09-19 01:02:46 AM  

haolegirl: I haven't read all the comments, but has anyone yet pointed out that's it's not medically necessary? In fact if you have a boy, and you're on welfare they won't pay for it because it's an option, and not even recommended.


Actually, a large part of the problem in the USA is that Medicare pays for infant circumcision in 32 states. Back when the program was started, it was all 50. Although Medicaid wasn't meant to pay for unnecessary procedures, nobody seemed to get the memo on this one.

Insurance coverage  for circumcision was dropped from California's policy about 30 years ago, a few more in the 90s, and about a dozen since the turn of the century. In these states, nowadays doctors just get away with soliciting more money from expectant parents to circumcise the kid, and can then sometimes further profit by selling the discarded foreskins to tissue banks.
 
2013-09-19 01:03:24 AM  
Ah, fark, I meant Medicaid.
 
2013-09-19 01:07:33 AM  
No way did we have our son circ'd when he was a baby. No religious reason to, and I didn't want him in pain. I also don't find uncircumcised penises to be  aesthetically less attractive than cut, even though his dad is cut.  Instead, over time, we taught him to be clean and use condoms. He's grown now, and if he ever wants to get circumcised, he can make the choice himself. He's never intimated that he wants to have it done, but it should be a personal, adult decision. Easy-peasy.

/2 cents
 
2013-09-19 01:10:17 AM  

surrybee: hardinparamedic: surrybee: You give versed and fentanyl for circumcisions?

Our facility is attempting to attain magnet status, so they're pretty progressive and aggressive in their pain control protocols and policies, and much of the pain control policies and standing orders in place are Nurse and Mid-level driven. In NICU and PICU patients, their threshold to administer is pretty low since these patients have concurrent issues. (We don't do well babies/regular OB, period.)

Surgery has a policy that if they're getting a circ (we regularly see kids 2-3 years old who are getting them due to continual UTI or other issues), they do it in general surgery or starlight. They'll snow them, drop an LMA, and keep them snowed through the procedure.

EMLA, if USED CORRECTLY, can provide some pretty powerful pain control (I've seen ER fellows and attendings use it on I&Ds for cutaneous abscesses)

surrybee: The simple fact is that the vast majority of infants who are circumcised do not receive that kind of pain relief.

No, you're absolutely right. I'm sure as a NICU RN, you have the problem working with older neonatologists with the prevailing belief that premies/newborn infants don't feel pain. One of our sister facilities that handles the high risk OB/Delivery deals with this issue all the time - we will see patients on high frequency oscillatory ventilation who are taching away at 180/190 and the doctors still won't order pain control.

I personally think that if you're circumcising a newborn child, you should do so in a manner that the child feels absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be done at home, or in a pediatrician's office. (I've actually seen two patients almost die in the last four years from botched circumcisions and uncontrolled hemorrhage.)

What my neonatologists do or don't believe about pain control is irrevelent (but your assumption is completely wrong). Our neonatologists aren't surgeons and don't perform circumcision.

Back on topic, how do you make a baby f ...


OK, so I just started at the end and am reading backward through the comments here, so I may be missing something. How is it you two are able to objectively discuss an act of unnecessary surgery on a patient?
 
2013-09-19 01:15:10 AM  
Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque:
In the same way, anti-circumcision advocates tend to see circumcision as a mutilation of a child unable to give consent, done by parents for reasons that are ultimately unjustified or unwarranted. At best it is a meaningless exercise with relatively minor health improvements, and at worst causes lifelong medical issues. There is a real "emotional obligation" here. I don't think that parts of a child's anatomy should be amputated for aesthetic reasons or potential medical complications. I wouldn't clip the skin of a child's nose to potentially lessen the risk of prostate cancer. I wouldn't cut off a child's earlobes to potentially reduce its chance of heart disease. And I wouldn't permanently scar a baby's penis to potentially reduce its chance at contracting an STD.

It's a real thing to us. It's tantamount to child abuse. If you wait until the child is old enough to have an understanding of the risks and rewards inherent in the operation, by all means let that child make the decision for themselves. If you're a thirty year-old man who wants the procedure for whatever reason, knock yourself out. I just can't in good faith pretend ...


I understand your point of view, but tell us how you feel about things like this:

i.imgur.com
or this:
i.imgur.com
or this:
i.imgur.com

or ear/lip stretching in Africa, and so on?

Granted many of those start at around 4 or 5 years old, may involve less (or greater) pain and some involve gradual changes; but children that age are no more capable of real informed consent than a baby, in fact they can say 'no' but are still put through the procedures. And except for the ear piercing these are far more 'mutilating' than circumcision, which in the vast majority of cases causes no dysfunction. (Some have told me it improves function, if you know what I mean, but that is of course anecdotal evidence)

Because obviously you're more qualified to make decisions for other children's parents than they are.
 
2013-09-19 01:16:30 AM  

cyberspacedout: haolegirl: I haven't read all the comments, but has anyone yet pointed out that's it's not medically necessary? In fact if you have a boy, and you're on welfare they won't pay for it because it's an option, and not even recommended.

Actually, a large part of the problem in the USA is that Medicare pays for infant circumcision in 32 states. Back when the program was started, it was all 50. Although Medicaid wasn't meant to pay for unnecessary procedures, nobody seemed to get the memo on this one.

Insurance coverage  for circumcision was dropped from California's policy about 30 years ago, a few more in the 90s, and about a dozen since the turn of the century. In these states, nowadays doctors just get away with soliciting more money from expectant parents to circumcise the kid, and can then sometimes further profit by selling the discarded foreskins to tissue banks.


This was were i was going with that thought. It's nothing but a money making scheme within the medical community, and it's been prevalent for so long that people believe it's for the good of the baby. If you have a baby girl, as you potty train her you teach her the proper way to wipe. If you have a boy, let him decide on cosmetic surgery for his penis and in the meantime, teach him proper hygiene.

Having said that...I would imagine little boys with circumcised dads would wonder why they look different.
 
2013-09-19 01:37:16 AM  

haolegirl: Having said that...I would imagine little boys with circumcised dads would wonder why they look different.


It's more that a father might be concerned or even jealous that his own penis is different from his son's. I've met a few fathers who had looked into foreskin restoration for this very reason.
 
2013-09-19 01:41:22 AM  

hardinparamedic: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Circumcision is like cutting off a baby's ears so that it won't have to deal with the hassle of washing behind them later in life.

Yeah, no. No it's not. It's not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

As long as male circumcision is done in a manner that is humane and safe, such as under sedation or general anesthesia, I really don't have a problem with it. It should be the parents personal choice.


Actually, it should be the child's choice, like getting a tat or piercing or other body modifications at 18. You want to clip your junk at 18, sign the waiver and hack away with my blessing.

But infants aren't capable of consent, and their parents are their stewards, not their owners.
 
2013-09-19 02:14:35 AM  

cyberspacedout: haolegirl: Having said that...I would imagine little boys with circumcised dads would wonder why they look different.

It's more that a father might be concerned or even jealous that his own penis is different from his son's. I've met a few fathers who had looked into foreskin restoration for this very reason.


Really? I know it can be done with some success, but I never would have thought this would be an issue father/son.
 
2013-09-19 03:33:48 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: FTFA: The Internet is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas, where human reason leads the best ideas to triumph.

Bwaaaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaa!!!  Oh ... *gasp* ... oh, my sides are aching! Great comedic find, subby!


I'm beginning to think he's serious....
 
2013-09-19 03:39:12 AM  

ciberido: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Circumcision is like cutting off a baby's ears so that it won't have to deal with the hassle of washing behind them later in life.

Personally I think any guy who calls circumcision "genital mutilation" or equates it to female genital mutilation ought to have their penis cut off of, as a way of helping them understand the difference.


Of course you do.
 
2013-09-19 03:41:42 AM  

haolegirl: cyberspacedout: haolegirl: Having said that...I would imagine little boys with circumcised dads would wonder why they look different.

It's more that a father might be concerned or even jealous that his own penis is different from his son's. I've met a few fathers who had looked into foreskin restoration for this very reason.

Really? I know it can be done with some success, but I never would have thought this would be an issue father/son.


Well, you were asking if the kid would be self-conscious about the difference from his father. If anything, it's sometimes the other way around, which makes a bit more sense when you think about it. I would presume that most children don't care about the appearance of their parents' genitalia.

And foreskin restoration can be done with a good deal of success; it's just not exactly something you hear much about in public conversation.
 
2013-09-19 04:20:40 AM  

cyberspacedout: haolegirl: cyberspacedout: haolegirl: Having said that...I would imagine little boys with circumcised dads would wonder why they look different.

It's more that a father might be concerned or even jealous that his own penis is different from his son's. I've met a few fathers who had looked into foreskin restoration for this very reason.

Really? I know it can be done with some success, but I never would have thought this would be an issue father/son.

Well, you were asking if the kid would be self-conscious about the difference from his father. If anything, it's sometimes the other way around, which makes a bit more sense when you think about it. I would presume that most children don't care about the appearance of their parents' genitalia.

And foreskin restoration can be done with a good deal of success; it's just not exactly something you hear much about in public conversation.


Lol, good thing for Fark! And idk...i only have girls, but the little bit of potty training experience I have with boys was always "send him with dad", I ASSuMEd boys would look and wonder why they look different from dad (again I assumed dad would already know why)
 
2013-09-19 07:24:53 AM  

cyberspacedout: surrybee: hardinparamedic: surrybee: You give versed and fentanyl for circumcisions?

Our facility is attempting to attain magnet status, so they're pretty progressive and aggressive in their pain control protocols and policies, and much of the pain control policies and standing orders in place are Nurse and Mid-level driven. In NICU and PICU patients, their threshold to administer is pretty low since these patients have concurrent issues. (We don't do well babies/regular OB, period.)

Surgery has a policy that if they're getting a circ (we regularly see kids 2-3 years old who are getting them due to continual UTI or other issues), they do it in general surgery or starlight. They'll snow them, drop an LMA, and keep them snowed through the procedure.

EMLA, if USED CORRECTLY, can provide some pretty powerful pain control (I've seen ER fellows and attendings use it on I&Ds for cutaneous abscesses)

surrybee: The simple fact is that the vast majority of infants who are circumcised do not receive that kind of pain relief.

No, you're absolutely right. I'm sure as a NICU RN, you have the problem working with older neonatologists with the prevailing belief that premies/newborn infants don't feel pain. One of our sister facilities that handles the high risk OB/Delivery deals with this issue all the time - we will see patients on high frequency oscillatory ventilation who are taching away at 180/190 and the doctors still won't order pain control.

I personally think that if you're circumcising a newborn child, you should do so in a manner that the child feels absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be done at home, or in a pediatrician's office. (I've actually seen two patients almost die in the last four years from botched circumcisions and uncontrolled hemorrhage.)

What my neonatologists do or don't believe about pain control is irrevelent (but your assumption is completely wrong). Our neonatologists aren't surgeons and don't perform circumcision.

Back on topic, how do you mak ...

 
2013-09-19 07:33:09 AM  
cyberspacedout:
OK, so I just started at the end and am reading backward through the comments here, so I may be missing something. How is it you two are able to objectively discuss an act of unnecessary surgery on a patient?

You should start at the beginning and work your way to the end. Short version: I'm a NICU nurse. I'm 100% opposed to circumcision. I refuse to assist with the procedure. Hardinparamedic here has spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense. He got to a particular doozy (suggesting infants are given adequate pain control) and I responded. He responded to me with a giant off topic wall, I responded briefly addressing only the topic at hand.

Staying civil is a better way to get your point across than angry hyperbole and personal attacks, so I stay civil.
 
hej
2013-09-19 07:40:26 AM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Circumcision is like cutting off a baby's ears so that it won't have to deal with the hassle of washing behind them later in life.


It's more like when my parents had my tonsils removed.
 
2013-09-19 07:45:17 AM  

surrybee: You should start at the beginning and work your way to the end. Short version: I'm a NICU nurse. I'm 100% opposed to circumcision. I refuse to assist with the procedure. Hardinparamedic here has spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense. He got to a particular doozy (suggesting infants are given adequate pain control) and I responded. He responded to me with a giant off topic wall, I responded briefly addressing only the topic at hand.

Staying civil is a better way to get your point across than angry hyperbole and personal attacks, so I stay civil.


applause.gif
 
2013-09-19 07:55:01 AM  

super_grass: profplump: hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.

Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?

That argument always intrigued me. Foreskins are about as useful as abstinence or pulling out.


And yet, the statistics claim otherwise. This is one of those Freakonomics-level things, where as far as we can tell, there should be no difference: no mechanism to make any kind of difference. But the numbers persist.
 
2013-09-19 08:39:22 AM  

Millennium: super_grass: profplump: hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.

Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?

That argument always intrigued me. Foreskins are about as useful as abstinence or pulling out.

And yet, the statistics claim otherwise. This is one of those Freakonomics-level things, where as far as we can tell, there should be no difference: no mechanism to make any kind of difference. But the numbers persist.


Nobody ever mentions the culture of adult men who choose to get circumsized in developing African countries versus ones that don't get circumsized.
 
2013-09-19 09:48:50 AM  

Shakin_Haitian: Millennium: super_grass: profplump: hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.

Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?

That argument always intrigued me. Foreskins are about as useful as abstinence or pulling out.

And yet, the statistics claim otherwise. This is one of those Freakonomics-level things, where as far as we can tell, there should be no difference: no mechanism to make any kind of difference. But the numbers persist.

Nobody ever mentions the culture of adult men who choose to get circumsized in developing African countries versus ones that don't get circumsized.


Controlling for cultural differences removes some of the difference, it is true. But even when you control for those behaviors, a significant correlation remains. No one yet knows why.
 
2013-09-19 11:07:26 AM  

Moonlightfox: For the folks mentioning Africa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlsUg0sdAtE

the South Africa study by the numbers:
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html

For those of you still arguing that MGM is a non issue because FGM exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98f3IavuEgQ

For those of you saying the prepuce has no purpose, doesn't matter, or "funnels disease into your peehole" like one moron posted, watch this (medical-grade nsfw material) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_dzeDvx2QA


And before any of this information should come the staple pro-choice mantra: my body, my decision.


hardinparamedicgives peer-reviewed study after peer-reviewed study. You give . . . three youtube videos and a site that presents no evidence of its own, just a poor critique of an actual, case-control, randomized study. The site's main critique seems to be that the people in the study were not a random sample of the population. At worst, if this were true, then this would mean that male circumcision was effective among a subset of the population. It would not necessarily imply that it was ineffective among the rest of the population.

What actual information are you planning to provide parents facing this choice? I'm talking peer-reviewed journal articles, not blogs or youtube videos.
 
2013-09-19 11:17:44 AM  

surrybee: cyberspacedout:
OK, so I just started at the end and am reading backward through the comments here, so I may be missing something. How is it you two are able to objectively discuss an act of unnecessary surgery on a patient?

You should start at the beginning and work your way to the end. Short version: I'm a NICU nurse. I'm 100% opposed to circumcision. I refuse to assist with the procedure. Hardinparamedic here has spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense. He got to a particular doozy (suggesting infants are given adequate pain control) and I responded. He responded to me with a giant off topic wall, I responded briefly addressing only the topic at hand.

Staying civil is a better way to get your point across than angry hyperbole and personal attacks, so I stay civil.


Thanks for your posts, by the way. It's interesting hearing the differences in practice from hospital to hospital.

But I think I'll defend Hardinparamedic a bit. He/she has not spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense." He/she has spent the thread linking to peer-review studies indicating the benefits of circumcision (lowered risks of STDs), the fact that uncircumsized boys and have problems with their foreskins (1/3, IIRC). The closest he/she has come to a rant was about someone who clearly tried to lump male circumcision with FGM.

Would you have any anti-circumcision peer-reviewed studies to cite? Or can you provide more information about why you are 100% opposed to circumcision (I'm assuming you mean infant circumcision without any clear medical indication, of course)?
 
2013-09-19 11:21:55 AM  

maelstrom0370: PunGent: dbaggins: FunkOut: radarlove: All I need to know is that uncut cocks look disgusting and I would never stick one in my mouth.  Up my ass MAYBE, but only if I didn't see it beforehand.

Cut cocks, on the other hand, are sexy as hell.

Men's genitals are no good unless they have been surgically modified? Humans genetics says they're supposed to look a certain way.

human genes do a lot of things that we don't care for or are no longer biologically relevant.    At this point foreskin is vestigial.   You can take it or leave it, up to your style preferences.

With only about a hundred dead babies per year, in the U.S., from botched circumcision.

A small price to pay for style, I'm sure...


I'm curious about your source. A quick Google only turns up biased websites (the "Intaction" movement) and a mommy blog full of conjecture and "we think/can assume"


http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=886c0b2db93c4 62 0a7ac9ea4cc58ae3e&pi=5
 
2013-09-19 11:22:42 AM  
If it's good enough for Ronald Reagan, it's good enough for me.
 
2013-09-19 11:24:18 AM  

surrybee: cyberspacedout:
OK, so I just started at the end and am reading backward through the comments here, so I may be missing something. How is it you two are able to objectively discuss an act of unnecessary surgery on a patient?

You should start at the beginning and work your way to the end. Short version: I'm a NICU nurse. I'm 100% opposed to circumcision. I refuse to assist with the procedure. Hardinparamedic here has spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense. He got to a particular doozy (suggesting infants are given adequate pain control) and I responded. He responded to me with a giant off topic wall, I responded briefly addressing only the topic at hand.

Staying civil is a better way to get your point across than angry hyperbole and personal attacks, so I stay civil.



Actually, he responded to you quite eloquently. Earlier upthread, you pointed out that you were an "actual RN", suggesting he was talking out of his ass, and he responded by pointing out he was also an RN. A NICU RN, to be exact. Then, when that failed, you scoffed at the idea that his hospital provided pain meds for infants. He provided the necessary information to back up his claim. I'm not sure where you see this as off topic, but good on you for being FARK obteuse!
It's great that you're anti-circ, just as it's fine that others are pro-circ. From this thread alone, it seems there's as many medical pros/cons for one as there are the other.
Also, equating the safe and surgical (in this case, "surgical" is meant to imply by a professional in a safe, sterile environment) removal of a vestigal piece of skin to mutilation of any sort is just hyperbolic and histrionic.
 
2013-09-19 11:25:28 AM  

Argyle82: gingerjet: HotWingConspiracy: Argyle82: NEPAman: The author sounds circumcised.

This.

Keep defending your parents archaic decision when you were born, author.  Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.

Why is it so hard for you foreskinists to accept that people really don't give a fark?

I've found that those that obsess over this issue typically have other problems and are just looking for something to blame it on.

/and anyone who calls circumcision "mutilation" is simply not someone you can have a rational discussion with

I can't think of a better word to use than 'mutilation' when it comes to cutting off parts of a human's body for no other reason than the Jews did it thousands of years ago to keep sand out of it....


I don't agree with much of what those ancient monotheistic inbreds did, but having had this happen...I can see their point.
 
2013-09-19 11:25:43 AM  

dbaggins: Jill'sNipple: They shouldn't cut on children, period.

buh.  mountain from mole hills.       I'm cut, so is my dad, grand dads weren't, most of my cousins are uncut.  Health-wise the extended family seems to come out a little easier with being cut from our small unscientific census.  So, my sisters had the kids circumcised.   The pediatrician in the bunch did the deeper literature dive and decided to do so as well with her boy.    The data is not really overwhelming unless you live in an HIV dense setting.

Contrary to most polemics, guys with foreskins do not have healthier cocks. Clinical data is gigantic on the topic.  Really.   stack up the column of morbidity for the two groups and it's in favor or circumcision. That includes the guys that have complications. Foreskin guys get complications as well.  Tight urethra affects both groups at about the same rate with different root pathology.


You mean the clinical data where doctors aren't required to report the babies they kill with botched circumcisions?
Might want to revisit that decision for any future boy children...just saying.

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=886c0b2db93c4 62 0a7ac9ea4cc58ae3e&pi=5
 
2013-09-19 11:26:53 AM  

draypresct: surrybee: cyberspacedout:
OK, so I just started at the end and am reading backward through the comments here, so I may be missing something. How is it you two are able to objectively discuss an act of unnecessary surgery on a patient?

You should start at the beginning and work your way to the end. Short version: I'm a NICU nurse. I'm 100% opposed to circumcision. I refuse to assist with the procedure. Hardinparamedic here has spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense. He got to a particular doozy (suggesting infants are given adequate pain control) and I responded. He responded to me with a giant off topic wall, I responded briefly addressing only the topic at hand.

Staying civil is a better way to get your point across than angry hyperbole and personal attacks, so I stay civil.

Thanks for your posts, by the way. It's interesting hearing the differences in practice from hospital to hospital.

But I think I'll defend Hardinparamedic a bit. He/she has not spent the thread spewing pro-circ nonsense." He/she has spent the thread linking to peer-review studies indicating the benefits of circumcision (lowered risks of STDs), the fact that uncircumsized boys and have problems with their foreskins (1/3, IIRC). The closest he/she has come to a rant was about someone who clearly tried to lump male circumcision with FGM.

Would you have any anti-circumcision peer-reviewed studies to cite? Or can you provide more information about why you are 100% opposed to circumcision (I'm assuming you mean infant circumcision without any clear medical indication, of course)?


Best I could find:  http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=886c0b2db93c46 2 0a7ac9ea4cc58ae3e&pi=5

I'll have to dig into the methodology a bit, if I get time later.
 
2013-09-19 11:27:36 AM  

PunGent: maelstrom0370: PunGent: dbaggins: FunkOut: radarlove: All I need to know is that uncut cocks look disgusting and I would never stick one in my mouth.  Up my ass MAYBE, but only if I didn't see it beforehand.

Cut cocks, on the other hand, are sexy as hell.

Men's genitals are no good unless they have been surgically modified? Humans genetics says they're supposed to look a certain way.

human genes do a lot of things that we don't care for or are no longer biologically relevant.    At this point foreskin is vestigial.   You can take it or leave it, up to your style preferences.

With only about a hundred dead babies per year, in the U.S., from botched circumcision.

A small price to pay for style, I'm sure...


I'm curious about your source. A quick Google only turns up biased websites (the "Intaction" movement) and a mommy blog full of conjecture and "we think/can assume"

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=886c0b2db93c4 62 0a7ac9ea4cc58ae3e&pi=5



FTFA: Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem

Gotcha! So you had no more luck than I did in finding actual numbers. Thanks! Just checking :)
 
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