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(Slate)   Twas circumcision and fringe groups that broke the internet, not those videos of your Mom   (slate.com) divider line 443
    More: Sad, systematic review, marketplace of ideas, penile cancers, male sexuality, circumcisions, amputations, female genital mutilation, mutilation  
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7975 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 5:17 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 05:48:59 PM
This isn't even worth talking about.

How about you do what you're gonna do, and I do what I'm gonna do, and we not talk about it as if you have any influence on the choices I make.

Ultimately, this seems to come down to the foreskin-having guys and their girlfriends trying desperately to justify the ugliness of their penis in western society. We get it: You're self-conscious about your unattractive smeggy penis. We just don't care.
 
2013-09-18 05:49:01 PM

thisisyourbrainonFark: I was circumcised. I got over it.

/so will my daughter


super_grass: In b4 comparisons with female circumcision.


God dammit.
 
2013-09-18 05:49:07 PM

super_grass: In b4 comparisons with female circumcision.


lolnope

look one post up
 
2013-09-18 05:50:28 PM
I always felt that it was up to the kid when he got older.  I guess saying:  "My body my right" is cool but saying: "my cock my tip" isn't so cool.
 
2013-09-18 05:51:14 PM

thisisyourbrainonFark: I was circumcised. I got over it.

/so will my daughter


Ummm... Wha... But...
 
2013-09-18 05:51:15 PM

gingerjet: HotWingConspiracy: Argyle82: NEPAman: The author sounds circumcised.

This.

Keep defending your parents archaic decision when you were born, author.  Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.

Why is it so hard for you foreskinists to accept that people really don't give a fark?

I've found that those that obsess over this issue typically have other problems and are just looking for something to blame it on.

/and anyone who calls circumcision "mutilation" is simply not someone you can have a rational discussion with


I can't think of a better word to use than 'mutilation' when it comes to cutting off parts of a human's body for no other reason than the Jews did it thousands of years ago to keep sand out of it....
 
2013-09-18 05:52:09 PM

HairBolus: Step 1 in cutting down on clutter in circumcision debate:
 Ignore any pro-circumcision author with a Jewish sounding last name.

(likewise for debate over nosejobs)


Clearly you have never felt the comfort of a bedsheet made from stitched-together foreskins.
 
2013-09-18 05:52:16 PM

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: I know two guys who were circumcised as adults.

They both LOVED it.


As soon as I can afford the procedure, I'm going to have a foreskin attached so I can get circumcised again.
 
2013-09-18 05:52:20 PM

hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.


Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?
 
2013-09-18 05:52:45 PM

hardinparamedic: As long as male circumcision is done in a manner that is humane and safe, such as under sedation or general anesthesia, I really don't have a problem with it. It should be the parents personal choice.


I'm just not really down with the idea of preventative genital mutilation. If the kid later wants to become circumcised in order to reap those medical benefits, that should be his choice. It's not like there's any rush, considering babies aren't having much sexual activity. Later in life the parents can have the sex talk, lay out both sides, and let him decide. Treat it like ear piercing. There's really no point in doing it until the child is of age where they're capable of asking about it.
 
2013-09-18 05:52:56 PM

thisisyourbrainonFark: I was circumcised. I got over it.

/so will my daughter


i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 05:53:15 PM

Smoking GNU: How about just leaving the damn kids penises alone whydoncha?


Because the bibble. Or tradition. Or both.

/regardless, don't really care terribly much
//still wouldn't do it to my son if I was unfortunate enough to have one, though
 
2013-09-18 05:53:48 PM

ZeroCorpse: This isn't even worth talking about.

How about you do what you're gonna do, and I do what I'm gonna do, and we not talk about it as if you have any influence on the choices I make.

Ultimately, this seems to come down to the foreskin-having guys and their girlfriends trying desperately to justify the ugliness of their penis in western society. We get it: You're self-conscious about your unattractive smeggy penis. We just don't care.


Nope. If That were the case we'd just go get it snipped, as we are adults capable of making decisions. It's about forcing this procedure on babies.
 
2013-09-18 05:53:56 PM

Magnanimous_J: blatz514: How do I tell my wife that It really gets on my nerves when she nibbles on my foreskin?

She thinks that I like it, but honestly, I just wish that I'd thrown it away after the circumcision.

hahaha. gross.

As for you anti-circumcision crowd, I'll make you a deal. For every circumcision you talk people out of, I'm going to declaw 5 cats.


I've been snipped. I'm good with it. I heard the joke I posted awhile ago but I had to do some searching to get it worded correctly.
 
2013-09-18 05:54:01 PM

Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: 

Why is it so hard for you foreskinists to accept that people really don't give a fark?

Obviously the author does give a fark.

That's not what the article was about.

I guess we just can't understand why people wouldn't give a fark that its acceptable to a large number of people to sever a piece of newborn baby.


Right, but you also have this notion that everyone that is circumcised is traumatized and just lying about it, no matter how many times you're told otherwise.

You could just accept it and not have any of your sons circumcised if that's your thing, but instead you act like fanatical weirdos bent on telling people how they really feel and imagining you know better.
 
2013-09-18 05:54:14 PM

TheDirtyNacho: hardinparamedic: Fafai: Obviously the author does give a fark.

Actually, had you RTFA, you'd have realized it was calling out people who are using anti-abortion like guro tactics, appeals to fear, and pseudoscience to argue against circumcision, even going as far as to honestly compare it to FGM.


It's pretty obvious though.  It's like claiming "there's crazy people at the mental hospital!" and writing a 4000 word essay about it.


25.media.tumblr.com

"Colonics for everyone! All right! You dumbasses. I'm a mental patient. I'm *supposed* to act out!"
 
2013-09-18 05:54:17 PM

profplump: hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.

Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?


Because it's memorable when you're an adult. You don't remember it if it's done as an infant.

I am THANKFUL that my parents made that choice for me, because now I have a beautiful, much-loved penis and I didn't have to undergo any pain to get it. At least, none that I personally remember.
 
2013-09-18 05:54:51 PM

Mein Fuhrer I Can Walk: As one who ended up having to undergo painful surgery to correct a stricture caused by lack of protection of the glans - I can say I am fully on the side of not having any theoretical male kids of mine circumcised.


Except that meatal stenosis is a rare but known side effect of circumcision, and is most common occurring in patients who have their circumcision performed outside of a high-volume facility by someone who is not trained as a surgeon.

I'm sorry you're one of the 0.5% of people (Not 5%, but 0.5%) who had to have corrective surgery, but your anecdote does not invalidate the informed choices of parents. Circumcision is NOT mandatory, and is only done at the request of the parents.
 
2013-09-18 05:55:35 PM

profplump: hardinparamedic: It should be the parents personal choice.

Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?


That argument always intrigued me. Foreskins are about as useful as abstinence or pulling out.
 
2013-09-18 05:55:59 PM

Argyle82: I can't think of a better word to use than 'mutilation' when it comes to cutting off parts of a human's body for no other reason than the Jews did it thousands of years ago to keep sand out of it....


I think it was more about tribal unity.  The assumption being that you were less likely to ditch if your manhood looks different.

/same goes for most of what's in those early Old Testament books
 
2013-09-18 05:56:57 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: 

Right, but you also have this notion that everyone that is circumcised is traumatized and just lying about it, no matter how many times you're told otherwise.

You could just accept it and not have any of your sons circumcised if that's your thing, but instead you act like fanatical weirdos bent on telling people how they really feel and imagining you know better.


Show me where I've done this.
 
2013-09-18 05:57:19 PM

profplump: Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?


Circumcision performed as an adult requires general anesthesia, including the probability of being intubated, and has a severely painful recovery period, including the possibility of incontinence and having to relearn bladder control. Circumcision performed in the neonatal period has a very low rate of complications, can be done with procedural sedation meaning less risk to the patient, and has a rapid recovery time.

In addition, it's not just protection from STDs, 1/3 of uncircumcised children will suffer from some form of medical issue related to their foreskin.
 
2013-09-18 05:58:07 PM

Argyle82: I can't think of a better word to use than 'mutilation' when it comes to cutting off parts of a human's body for no other reason than the Jews did it thousands of years ago to keep sand out of it....


Actually it was victorian doctors that pushed it as a way to decrease masturbation. It's a farked up practice which we barbarically perform on newborns.
 
2013-09-18 05:58:15 PM
profplump
Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?
You haven't been reading the 'hot' teacher posts have you?
 
2013-09-18 05:58:55 PM
Is it time for another one of these threads already?
 
2013-09-18 05:59:11 PM

Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: Fafai: HotWingConspiracy: 

Right, but you also have this notion that everyone that is circumcised is traumatized and just lying about it, no matter how many times you're told otherwise.

You could just accept it and not have any of your sons circumcised if that's your thing, but instead you act like fanatical weirdos bent on telling people how they really feel and imagining you know better.

Show me where I've done this.


You lumped yourself in with them. They're your brethren, your PR issues aren't my problem.
 
2013-09-18 05:59:13 PM

hardinparamedic: Mein Fuhrer I Can Walk: As one who ended up having to undergo painful surgery to correct a stricture caused by lack of protection of the glans - I can say I am fully on the side of not having any theoretical male kids of mine circumcised.

Except that meatal stenosis is a rare but known side effect of circumcision, and is most common occurring in patients who have their circumcision performed outside of a high-volume facility by someone who is not trained as a surgeon.

I'm sorry you're one of the 0.5% of people (Not 5%, but 0.5%) who had to have corrective surgery, but your anecdote does not invalidate the informed choices of parents. Circumcision is NOT mandatory, and is only done at the request of the parents.


That's my point, bucko. I am never going to request it, should I sire an heir.
 
2013-09-18 05:59:54 PM

hardinparamedic: profplump: Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?

Circumcision performed as an adult requires general anesthesia, including the probability of being intubated, and has a severely painful recovery period, including the possibility of incontinence and having to relearn bladder control. Circumcision performed in the neonatal period has a very low rate of complications, can be done with procedural sedation meaning less risk to the patient, and has a rapid recovery time.

In addition, it's not just protection from STDs, 1/3 of uncircumcised children will suffer from some form of medical issue related to their foreskin.


I lol'd at the random, self manufactured stat.... well done.

4/10
 
2013-09-18 05:59:58 PM

hardinparamedic: profplump: Is there some reason it can't be the post-pubecent male's own choice? Exactly what 7-year-olds need protection from STDs?

Circumcision performed as an adult requires general anesthesia, including the probability of being intubated, and has a severely painful recovery period, including the possibility of incontinence and having to relearn bladder control. Circumcision performed in the neonatal period has a very low rate of complications, can be done with procedural sedation meaning less risk to the patient, and has a rapid recovery time.

In addition, it's not just protection from STDs, 1/3 of uncircumcised children will suffer from some form of medical issue related to their foreskin.


Well if they'd stop playing with it.

/okay, so that's never gonna happen.
 
2013-09-18 06:00:09 PM

HotWingConspiracy: You could just accept it and not have any of your sons circumcised if that's your thing, but instead you act like fanatical weirdos bent on telling people how they really feel and imagining you know better.


It's like those "activists" who don't want to do the work and lose weight, so they rail on about how society should change its standard of beauty to better accommodate them.
 
2013-09-18 06:00:13 PM

Argyle82: I can't think of a better word to use than 'mutilation' when it comes to cutting off parts of a human's body for no other reason than the Jews did it thousands of years ago


But since then we've reverse-engineered some reasons why it's beneficial to some adults, so we MUST continue doing it to all children shortly after they are born. Ignore the fact that none of the claimed benefits impact pre-pubecent children -- we have to do it to them anyway.

If you had incontrovertible evidence that surgically removing your fingernails halved your lifetime risk of skin cancer I bet you'd still have a hard time getting people to do it to infants; the reason circumcision is popular has nothing to do with any medical benefits and it's as much a lie to claim it's being done to in the US to prevent the spread of HIV as it is to claim that it reduces sensitivity.
 
2013-09-18 06:00:27 PM

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I'm just not really down with the idea of preventative genital mutilation. If the kid later wants to become circumcised in order to reap those medical benefits, that should be his choice. It's not like there's any rush, considering babies aren't having much sexual activity. Later in life the parents can have the sex talk, lay out both sides, and let him decide. Treat it like ear piercing. There's really no point in doing it until the child is of age where they're capable of asking about it.


First off, it's not "genital mutilation", unless you're disingenuously trying to compare it to FGM, which involves brutally removing the ability for a woman to have sexual function period.

Secondly, many of those medical benefits, including decreased chances of a UTI or Cystitis and elimination of the probability of having a phymosis or paraphymosis are bypassed in adulthood. In addition, the procedure is FAR MORE traumatic and dangerous as the child gets older, and has a higher rate of complications.
 
2013-09-18 06:00:33 PM
And the same thing is happening with vaccination.
 
2013-09-18 06:02:11 PM

meat0918: And the same thing is happening with vaccination.


Oh god, you just caused another 20 posts.
 
2013-09-18 06:02:20 PM

Argyle82: I lol'd at the random, self manufactured stat.... well done.

4/10


I LOL'd at you making an ass out of yourself by calling a statistic manufactured. But since you don't believe me, let's asked the Journal of AIDS Care.
 
2013-09-18 06:02:29 PM
hardinparamedic:

Yeah, no. No it's not. It's not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

As long as male circumcision is done in a manner that is humane and safe, such as under sedation or general anesthesia, I really don't have a problem with it. It should be the parents personal choice.


And that's the most that needs saying.
 
2013-09-18 06:02:51 PM

ZeroCorpse: This isn't even worth talking about.

How about you do what you're gonna do, and I do what I'm gonna do, and we not talk about it as if you have any influence on the choices I make.

Ultimately, this seems to come down to the foreskin-having guys and their girlfriends trying desperately to justify the ugliness of their penis in western society. We get it: You're self-conscious about your unattractive smeggy penis. We just don't care.


This
/I hate women who are use to trunk dick, and think it's okay to pull on mine like I got excess skin to be pulled on
//That shiat hurts
 
2013-09-18 06:03:52 PM
Possibly relevant

photos1.blogger.com
 
2013-09-18 06:03:53 PM
I just wish both sides would stop making the other feel ashamed about their bodies. We have enough of that.
 
2013-09-18 06:04:13 PM
 
2013-09-18 06:05:41 PM

ZeroCorpse: Because it's memorable when you're an adult. You don't remember it if it's done as an infant.


I suspect you could be sedated so that you don't remember it as an adult either -- we seem to be able to work that out for all sorts of other surgeries.

It's also a stretch to claim that it won't be remembered -- all you know is as an adult you don't remember. But you might have really hated it for the first 4 years of your life.

Regardless, the possible existence of a memory is hardly an excuse to preclude someone the right of free choice -- if you found a sleeping person with a non-urgent medical issue (let's say head lice) would it be ethical to treat them without their consent, or would you wait until they woke up to ask them to consent?
 
2013-09-18 06:06:13 PM

meat0918: And the same thing is happening with vaccination.


Can we just preemptively give the anti-vaxxers shots of polio and whatever else so they die and leave the rest of us alone?

\Give those same shots to the anti-circumcision nuts while you're at it.
\\And the anti-abortion crowd, and militant vegans, and...
\\\I could make a list.
 
2013-09-18 06:07:23 PM

hardinparamedic: In addition, it's not just protection from STDs, 1/3 of uncircumcised children will suffer from some form of medical issue related to their foreskin.


That seems a bit unlikely given that huge portions of the world do not routinely circumcise children. The article doesn't make any claims on that point -- could you elaborate?
 
2013-09-18 06:07:48 PM

profplump: Regardless, the possible existence of a memory is hardly an excuse to preclude someone the right of free choice -- if you found a sleeping person with a non-urgent medical issue (let's say head lice) would it be ethical to treat them without their consent, or would you wait until they woke up to ask them to consent?


You're comparing apples (i.e. a minor unable to even vocalize consent, but for whom a procedure has a clear benefit with a low risk of side effects or complications, which is explained to the parents who consent to it) to oranges (an adult patient who is unconscious)
 
2013-09-18 06:07:54 PM

NEPAman: The author sounds circumcised.


Why? I'm snipped, but I'm against nonconsensual circumcision.
 
2013-09-18 06:09:09 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: ZeroCorpse: 
/I hate women who are use to trunk dick, and think it's okay to pull on mine like I got excess skin to be pulled on
//That shiat hurts


Evidence ITT that circumcision interferes with sexual pleasure. And that's not even my angle, you just volunteered that info.
 
2013-09-18 06:09:32 PM

hardinparamedic: I LOL'd at you making an ass out of yourself by calling a statistic manufactured. But since you don't believe me, let's asked the Journal of AIDS Care.


Let's see how that article stands up under the general rule of thumb of "ignore pro-circumcision authors with Jewish sounding names"

Review: a critical evaluation of arguments opposing male circumcision for HIV prevention in developed countries.

Morris BJ, Bailey RC, Klausner JD, Leibowitz A, Wamai RG, Waskett JH, Banerjee J, Halperin DT, Zoloth L, Weiss HA, Hankins CA.
 
2013-09-18 06:09:43 PM

hardinparamedic: profplump: Regardless, the possible existence of a memory is hardly an excuse to preclude someone the right of free choice -- if you found a sleeping person with a non-urgent medical issue (let's say head lice) would it be ethical to treat them without their consent, or would you wait until they woke up to ask them to consent?

You're comparing apples (i.e. a minor unable to even vocalize consent, but for whom a procedure has a clear benefit with a low risk of side effects or complications, which is explained to the parents who consent to it) to oranges (an adult patient who is unconscious)


When one does suffer those "side effects or complications," they last for life, and those "benefits" suddenly become quite hard to justify at a logical level.
 
2013-09-18 06:10:03 PM

profplump: That seems a bit unlikely given that huge portions of the world do not routinely circumcise children. The article doesn't make any claims on that point -- could you elaborate?


Critical Review of Circumcision from the Journal of AIDS Care, published in 2012.

Specifically, it mentions how anti-circumcision groups in the United States have tried to pass laws and restrict the insurance of people who choose to circumcise their children.

Hmm. Restrictions on choice of healthcare. Wonder who that sounds like.

www.indigojournal.com
 
2013-09-18 06:10:45 PM

hardinparamedic: I really don't have a problem with it. It should be the parents personal choice.


But not the baby's.
 
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