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(Slate)   Conservatives long awaited Obamacare replacement bill is set to be unveiled, laughed at   (slate.com) divider line 122
    More: Amusing, obamacare  
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2813 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2013 at 11:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2013-09-18 10:52:18 AM  
8 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


So, they want to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage without inflated rates, but they want to do away with the individual mandate?

I love that idea.  If implemented well it has the potential to bankrupt the health insurance companies within several years.  Then we can install a universal single payer system like we should have to begin with.
2013-09-18 10:51:26 AM  
6 votes:
point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.
2013-09-18 12:16:56 PM  
5 votes:
Has any Republican advocated for repealing the law that forces hospitals to treat people in an emergency regardless of their ability to pay? Because you can scream all you want about the free market, that law proves that there is a greater moral imperative to provide health care to people. It's a pretty significant mandate that's overlooked in these arguments.

Until you're ready to let people die on the streets because a hospital ran their credit first, there can't be any meaningful cost savings from free market solutions. It's already an inherently socialistic system. We're just paying for it in the most inefficient way.
2013-09-18 10:56:52 AM  
4 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?
2013-09-18 01:15:57 PM  
3 votes:

Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.


I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.
2013-09-18 11:41:13 AM  
3 votes:
The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.
2013-09-18 11:00:44 AM  
3 votes:

FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.


Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.
2013-09-18 03:57:30 PM  
2 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?


This guy, for one:

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.
2013-09-18 02:45:59 PM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?


It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.
2013-09-18 02:25:12 PM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.


Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash

And, we're through the looking glass, here, people.
2013-09-18 12:45:25 PM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.


My dogmatic indoctrination?  what would that be?

For what it's worth, I get what you're trying to say about Politics-as-a-football-game, where anything one team does is good and everything the other team does is bad, being bad for the country in general.

But you're bad at getting the point across because you make assumptions about the people you interact with in this thread and succomb to the same "Us vs. Them" logic, and put everyone who finds a fault with your reasoning in the "Them" category.
2013-09-18 12:32:24 PM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.


Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.


so which is it?
2013-09-18 12:26:40 PM  
2 votes:
The problem for conservatives is that, for political reasons, they've made it impossible to come up with a health plan. Obamcare is, pretty much, the conservative way to ensure universal health insurance coverage. All the other options either (i) don't cover everyone or (ii) are more liberal. So they are screwed.
2013-09-18 12:01:03 PM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.

Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.


Go ahead, name something of value that the GOP as a whole has done in the last 4.5 years.

And no, we will not accept trying (and failing) to repeal the ACA 41 (it may be more by now) times.

Pencils Ready...

BEGIN!
2013-09-18 11:50:33 AM  
2 votes:

Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.


I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.

Also, IMHO, I strongly suspect that the GOP leaders are terrified when the majority of American people realize what President Obama has done with creating ObamaCare, that majority will realize an African-American could be a great President for all the people.
2013-09-18 11:48:06 AM  
2 votes:

Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.


That's pretty typical of the ODS crowd.  Didn't like a third of LA Republicans recently blame the poor response to Hurricane Katrina on Obama?

These people are just insane.  They are literally separated from sanity.
2013-09-18 11:26:31 AM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


The bill was passed and is now law. Anyone going against that is probably doing so because they have an obstructionist goal, and would fark the country rather than do what is right.

A Republican, in other words.
2013-09-18 11:26:05 AM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.


Says the guy who thinks he knows what all libs WILL do when this plan, whatever it is, is unveiled.

This is either utter stupidity or brilliant trolling.
2013-09-18 10:58:54 AM  
2 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.
2013-09-18 10:39:44 AM  
2 votes:

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


or the same thing with half the benefits
2013-09-18 11:25:51 PM  
1 votes:

phenn: The mandate itself takes a few options off the table (self-insuring, concierge care) and premiums can end up rather dear if you make a decent living. I know, if you make a decent living, you should be insured. But, the offerings - gold, platinum, etc - are quite costly (according to the online calculator) and coverage percentages and out of pocket expenses don't seem quite worth it to me.


Also, I should just mention - the alternatives you've offered in this thread and others are in fact cheaper, but they're cheaper for the same reason that a rusted-out 1977 Gremlin with 300,000 miles on it and a wrecked transmission is going to be cheaper than a new car - you get what you pay for.

Even bronze health plans are better than what 50% of the country has today.  Silver plans would put you in the top 15% of today's market and gold would put you in the top 2%.  The alternatives you mention are far, far below bronze - they can offer a low cost because they also offer low coverage.
2013-09-18 06:25:49 PM  
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: To keep the plan they had under their former employers group plan, they will need to forever be tied to that former employer.


I think the missed some of the preceding conversation about what we are actually discussing. (Or you are fuzzy about how employer subsidies work). Here is the prior steps in the discussion:

BojanglesPaladin: 1) Detach Health insurance from employment and allow insurance plans with the same provider to be carried across state lines.

BojanglesPaladin: Employers can still offer a great plans as an incentive. The "trick" is that an employee can keep that plan at the same price when they leave employment. No COBRA shiat, nio getting gouged on the individual plan market - just the same person paying the same insurance for the same coverage. It is utter nonsense that an Insurance providers "risk" for health coverage changes because the name on their insured's paycheck changes.

If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.



So.. Yeah... That is the exact thing that needs to be fixed. Employment and Insurance should not be tied together like they are. And the easiest way to do that is to say that people can take it with them. (After a suitable eligibility period, of course).
2013-09-18 06:23:21 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people

Why?

The person STAYS in that same group. That person is the exact same person, with the exact same risk as they were 24 hours before. The ONLY thing that changes is who is making the payment to the Insurance company. They STAY in the SAME PLAN and the SAME RISK POOL.

Employment is an arbitrary and absurd differentiator for health insurance and a change in employment should have no bearing at all.


Well, you do realize that employers plans/rates are only good for one year. They have to renegotiate them every single year because, you know, the employers change over time. They might get older or younger overall, healthier or sicker. For this reason alone, it will be impossible for the former employee to keep his 'old' plan because the employer might drop that at the next annual open enrollment when they renegotiate their rates/plan with the insurance company. The insurance company will certainly not allow a former employer keep a plan that is no longer in existence and I highly doubt employers want their group demographics to effected by people that no longer work for them anymore.
2013-09-18 06:17:05 PM  
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people


Why?

The person STAYS in that same group. That person is the exact same person, with the exact same risk as they were 24 hours before. The ONLY thing that changes is who is making the payment to the Insurance company. They STAY in the SAME PLAN and the SAME RISK POOL.

Employment is an arbitrary and absurd differentiator for health insurance and a change in employment should have no bearing at all.
2013-09-18 06:10:38 PM  
1 votes:

Witty_Retort: But what if the next job has crappy insurance and the first company I worked for had a great plan that they subsidized heavily?


Your question suggests that you may not have a deep understanding of that 'subsidy', It's just splitting who pays the bill. I don't know how well you understand the system, or if you have been through a couple of these but now, You get what they gives ya.

Today:
Let's say AwesomeInc has a great plan and they subsidize 100% of the $485/month they pay for your awesome insurance. You pay not a penny. But you leave and take a job at MehCo where they subsidize 50% of the $385/month they pay for your mediocre insurance. Now you pay $192.50 more a month, and the insurance is not as good (higher deductible, higher copays, smaller network, etc).

You have no choice. Your awesome insurance is only available to AwesomeInc employees and you ain't one anymore. You get what your employer offers. Or you go get individual insurance and get ass-raped for lousy coverage. God help you if you are a woman and want maternity or anything.

After the Magic Wand:

(Allowing for a minimum time like 6 months or a year of employment before the plan is portable)


If you want you can keep the awesome insurance, and you pay exactly what AwesomeInc was paying for it. ($485/month). The insurance gets paid exactly the same for providing exactly the same insurance to exactly the same person at exactly the same risk.

Now you might say $485 a month? No way! Maybe you can get MehCo to pay you that $192 on your salary instead of subsidizing your insurance, so now it's only $293 a month )and only $100 a month more than MehCo's plan. Maybe not. Maybe you just decide to take Gimme MehCo's cheaper but crappier insurance, since you never get sick and you want the money more. Your call. But once you let go of the awesome plan, it's gone. But you can keep the mediocre plan, even if you go somewhere else.

Three years later you take a job with AmazeBros. and their plan is super awesome. It covers everything from Lasik to liposuction with full visual and dental and a $10 copay with a $500 deductible. And the company pays 100% of the $200/month. That's a p-lan that you would keep, and the insurance companies will want to be offering THAT plan, because that plan will get the keepers, and the crappier plans will get left in the dust.

Market pressures! The Aristocrats!
2013-09-18 04:32:16 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.


And that's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's good you understand that.
2013-09-18 04:32:07 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.


Please point out the duplicity in my statements. You are the one who made the claim, once again. Will you back it up this time? Probably not. Again, I ask. How is that a variation? I happen to disagree with 100% of Republican ideas, but not simply because Republicans are for them. Can you explain why that would be a variation on "If a Republican is for it, I'm against it"?
2013-09-18 04:29:11 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Believe it or not, there are people that have been engaged in this thread all day and, while your attempts to jump on the table in the last hour and drop a steaming pile of shiat on it are amusing


You know, it's funny. You've got  what? Like 50-60posts in this thread, and every single one of them is either "both sides are bad" trolling, or personal insults and flamebait. But I gotta hand it to you - accusing someone else, anyone else of shiatting all over this thread is the corn peanut topping on the giant shiat sundae you've dumped on us here.

Not one single post out of 60 that is actually on topic. but, yeah, it's other people who are shiatting on the thread.
2013-09-18 04:27:35 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession


How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.
2013-09-18 04:24:59 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?

So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?


Ah, now we see why it took you so long to respond in any way to the question posed. You were busy hooking up the trailer hitch to move the goalposts.
2013-09-18 04:23:18 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Thrag: Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it.

Oh Thrag. Thanks so much for the 'advice'. I haven't white-kinighted anyone, nor have I opined on anyone being "right". And speaking of white knighting and throwing your gat into someone else's ring, Cameron's a big boy and if he has an issue with my observations, then I'm sure he has a working keyboard that will serve him just fine without your assistance. All you Fark Kids TM with your funny little notions about this being some sort of combat with 'winners and losers' are just the cutest.


Do you even know what the fark you are on about? I didn't say anything about winners or losers. You are the one who mentioned "winner". And this broad brush "fark kids" crap? Really now. You are starting to engage in the same ridiculous smug strawman based ranting that Lucky is entertaining us by engaging in.

I like Cameron1984 because he's not a complete idiot slapfighter. That's why despite sometimes being at odds, he's not on my ignore list, but he does have a tendency to beat dead horses to a pulp, and sometimes gets caught up on arguing over extraneous incidentals in lieu of the actual topic.
 And as I pointed out, none of that is actually happening here. He asked a simple question, requesting someone to back an assertion. You interjected to make a personal attack based threadjack over that simple asking of "who". While I know that you also like to do exactly what you accuse Cameron of, never back down from even the most ridiculous of arguments, you might want to stop yourself this time.
2013-09-18 04:22:58 PM  
1 votes:

Thrag: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.

Once again, the only appropriate reply is:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

You are so worked up you can't put forth anything to support your statement and you can only throw insults and smugly celebrate your imagined victory against the strawman you created. A hypocritical projection trifecta.

Please proceed.


The funny part is, that was his response to:   [ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]

/I guess I was so overwrought with laughter. . .
2013-09-18 04:18:07 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?

So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?


That wasn't your claim. Your claim was that people in this thread were saying that if Republicans are for it, they are against it. Keep in mind, that is a different claim than those (including myself) who state that they disagree with 100% of Republican ideas. Just because you disagree with an idea does not mean that you disagree with it because a Republican is for it.
2013-09-18 04:16:36 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country.

Sure there is:

1a) Detach Health insurance from employment


Why would you deny a company from offering health insurance as part of their benefits in order to attract employees?  Secondly, the employers can usually get group rates from the insurers, thereby lowering premiums for the employees.

This solution benefits the insurance companies, and no one else.

1b) and allow insurance plans with the same provider to be carried across state lines.

While this may not be immediate.  In the medium term, this will cause most insurance companies to stop doing business from the more regulated states and only offer policies that come from the states with the less regulations.  Why do you think they can offer lower premiums in some states?

This solution benefits the insurance companies, and no one else.

2) Kill all HMOs and collusion between providers and insurance companies.
3) Ensure that "cash price" and "insurance price" are the same.


Laudable ideal, but impractical.  How can you prevent to private companies from entering into a business deal that is mutually beneficial to both of them?  The amount of legislation required and the manpower to enforce it would be astronomical.

4) Simplify coverage plans so they are more easily understood by a lay person.

Again laudable, but highly unlikely.  Insurance contracts are complex because legal terminology needs to be precise.  I'm sure there are cases where it's overly complex to discourage Joe Q. Public from reading the fine print, but in general, there are good reasons why they are written that way.  The solution you are recommending would also require heavy legislation to make sure that the insurers comply.

5) Require that pricing for all medical procedures is presented directly to the end user prior to or at the time of treatment.

What would that accomplish?  You can't really ask the ambulance to turn around because the price list is too high.

6) Remove restrictions on importation of exactly same medicines and medical equipment.

Importing medicine from Canada or Western Europe may not be a big safety risk, but importing from countries where the standards of production or storage and transportation conditions can be lacking could pose seirous risks ranging from medicine that's ineffective medicine to downright dangerous.

7) Keep the ACA's Pre-Existing condition and lifetime cap bans


And enjoy the prices soaring through the roof.

With those reforms in place, while not perfect, you would largely enable the functioning of market pressures.

But, of course, this won't actually happen.
2013-09-18 04:12:13 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.


Once again, the only appropriate reply is:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


You are so worked up you can't put forth anything to support your statement and you can only throw insults and smugly celebrate your imagined victory against the strawman you created. A hypocritical projection trifecta.

Please proceed.
2013-09-18 04:12:11 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.


MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?
2013-09-18 04:08:34 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.


Aw, you can't even name ONE name? Come on. Just one person who said that. You have 378 comments to choose from, why can't you provide even one that backs up your claim?
2013-09-18 04:06:59 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: HighOnCraic: Gee, and I'd always been fairly civil in discussions with you.

We have. Just busting your chops mostly. (.... but you do sometimes argue in circles when the spirit is in you :)


I usually have lengthy citations backing up what I post, but hey, we can agree to disagree.  The circle is now broken.
2013-09-18 04:05:43 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"


I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.
2013-09-18 04:02:08 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: Man, I am really starting to worry about you. Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since. Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

Cameron is fine, but after a certain point, he can't stop at "agree to disagree". Give him his two free internets so he can declare himself winnah and move on.


Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it. You are not doing yourself any favors. Asking someone to back up a very simple and direct claim like "people in the thread as saying X", with "who?" is hardly an example of someone who refuses to disagree to a ridiculous extent. While was you say about the poster may or may not be true in other circumstances, you have really thrown you hat into the wrong ring here.
2013-09-18 03:59:07 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"


How should one respond to a pathetic dodge like that? Let's see, how about:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

2013-09-18 03:54:48 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Thrag: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.

Oh.. never mind.  I didn't realize you were just a troll grabbing words out of context to make them fit your own,  twisted perceptions.


More projection. This is really great stuff. Dig on brother!
2013-09-18 03:54:19 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: Chummer45: So is the draft, jury duty, taxes, death, and crippling disease. But it's all stuff that's a fact of life and that we as a society have to deal with.

I'll give you jury duty. We have a volunteer military now, and death and disease are, indeed facts of life, but they're not affronts to liberty.


Two things (1) the government undoubtedly has the authority to institute the draft, and (2) are taxes an affront to liberty?

If your answer is "yes," which I suspect it may be, then it shows some deep and not at all oversimplistic thinking on your part.
2013-09-18 03:53:47 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Thrag: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.

Oh.. never mind.  I didn't realize you were just a troll grabbing words out of context to make them fit your own,  twisted perceptions.


Oh, there's that old "out of context argument" from you! When all else fails, try that!
2013-09-18 03:52:12 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".


Who?
2013-09-18 03:50:51 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.


This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.
2013-09-18 03:46:51 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


I hate to break it to you, but you are projecting hard.

You came here to assign people strawman views that were not expressed in the thread and now you have proceeded to declare how superior you are to the strawmen.
2013-09-18 03:43:56 PM  
1 votes:

phenn: Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.

If corporations didn't have legislators in their back pockets, you might see some real competition for premium dollars.

I don't think that's soon to happen, though.  :-(


The problem there is "confusopoly" - it's one Obamacare actually tries to make progress on by standardizing on coverages so that "bronze", "silver" etc. are roughly comparable.

In today's market, insurers have all kinds of tools to hide costs, exclusions, etc. in the plan. Insurers tend to treat their exclusion policies like nuclear secrets - trying to find out ahead of time if speech therapy will be covered in your situation? Good luck!

Customers often don't pick the best insurance plan for them during employers' open enrollment, when there are limited choices, the difference in impacts is easy to calculate, and the employer usually isn't actively trying to hide costs.
2013-09-18 03:35:01 PM  
1 votes:
Lucky LaRue: Simple disagreement with an observation does not indicate fallacy.

An "observation" isn't "something I just made up to support my argument."
2013-09-18 03:29:47 PM  
1 votes:

phenn: it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.


Health care's different - there's no functional market for the government to gum up. Consumers are neither rational nor informed about it, principal-agent problems abound, pricing is totally arbirtary and opaque, and it's not even excludable thanks to things like EMTALA and basic humanity.

A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.
2013-09-18 03:26:50 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.


Oh so you created a strawman with a false equivalency?

So ... So ....so close to the logical fallacy hat trick.   Better luck next time.
2013-09-18 02:56:02 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right

Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?

Dude.. what's the point?  Your aren't even arguing anymore; you are just grabbing snatches of conversation and imbuing them with as much hate-filled rhetoric as you can manage before sending them out for our amusement.


Hate-filled? Where? You've got to be kidding. Disagreeing is not "hate"
2013-09-18 02:53:02 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.

Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough. Seriously.  You guys suck.


As has been said, no matter how much thou doth protest, you fit in this category better than most in this thread.
2013-09-18 02:52:55 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).

The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.

Unless you are going to tell me you have a kinder, gentler definition for "leftist" than the one I've been using, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.


A leftist is not simply anyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP. You appear to believe that a moderate is someone who disagrees some with the left and some with the right. This is fallacy
2013-09-18 02:52:07 PM  
1 votes:
Lucky seems to define "extreme" as "anyone I disagree with," apparently.
2013-09-18 02:49:04 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).


The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.
2013-09-18 02:48:19 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: You seemed to be treating "empirical" as some sort of magic word.  You realize it simply means "based on observation and experience rather than theory", right?  Sorry if you expected me to keep it all recorded in a notebook.


Correct. If there is evidence, you should be able to provide it. Where is it?
2013-09-18 02:41:03 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.

hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.


What did I erase? I did not modify your post in any way. You can go back and look.  Where's this empirical evidence?
2013-09-18 02:40:25 PM  
1 votes:

Heliovdrake: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.


Don't you see? It's based on empirical evidence! It's probably lost under the couch.
2013-09-18 02:40:05 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.


Can you suppose that you might care to hazard a guess as to what those one or two things might be?
2013-09-18 02:39:37 PM  
1 votes:

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.


Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.
2013-09-18 02:37:40 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.


Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.
2013-09-18 02:37:20 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?


The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.
2013-09-18 02:31:40 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Your logic skills are truly amazing.  Farcical, yes, but amazing nonetheless.


Come on, where's all this empiric evidence that makes you so superior to us? Is it a pdf or Excel spreadsheet?
2013-09-18 02:30:49 PM  
1 votes:

Wasteland: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".

...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.


That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP.
2013-09-18 02:26:07 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!



What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".


...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.
2013-09-18 02:21:15 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!

That's not a strawman, that's straight-up empirical observation.  And, you are right - when it comes to the extremist on the left and on the right, my political views are superior.


You mean the ones that basically only exist in your head. If it's empirical observation, where is your data?
2013-09-18 02:16:40 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Again, name me these Liberals. Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.

Uh.. "pseudo-conservative" would imply a "false" conservative.  I'm pretty sure you were going for something else, so I'll let you have another go at it, if you'd like.


Not at all.  There is a definition that has been around since the late sixties.

Would you like to know more?


/anyone else smelling internet dentist?
2013-09-18 02:15:22 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: straight-up empirical observation


Bushwa.  Take a look at the last national election and see the number of votes for the Socialist party or the Communist party in the U.S..

You're lying.
2013-09-18 02:12:44 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Liberals who


Again, name me these Liberals.  Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.
2013-09-18 02:11:54 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: Soup4Bonnie: Tax cuts so you can buy insurance
Tort reform
HSA
Purchase insurance across state lines


The whole thing is weak, old, tried, and late.  They even trot out the old "increased competition will lower costs".  It stinks on ice.

Yeah, unless we give the Federal Government more authority in our daily lives, it's gonna flop! hurrrrrrrrrrrr!


You can always opt out.
2013-09-18 02:04:37 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue:  I am pretty sure I applauded the democrats who said they would be thrilled if the GOP put forward ObamaCare as their own.  It's not them I have a problem with, is it?  It's the extremist who give example after example of why they should feel justified being against any GOP proposal regardless of its content.

Liberals who oppose the imaginary "Republicans proposing policy currently proposed by Democrats" are extremists.

Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.

Well done.  You get an A.


I support Obamacare because it's coming from Democrats.

I would oppose Obamacare if it was coming from Republicans.

I would oppose it were it coming from Republicans because I would at that time be supporting the more liberal and even better plan that would be coming from Democrats were Obamacare actually being proposed and supported by conservatives.

My lack of supporting Obamacare were it being put forth by the Republicans isn't an example of extremism, it's an example of realism.

Realistically, were your hypothetical Republicans doing what you're postulating, there *would be a better option* than that being put forth by those hypothetical Republicans. Generally speaking, Republicans put forth shiatty ideas when compared to all the ideas available at any single moment and Democrats put forth slightly less shiatty ideas.
2013-09-18 02:01:55 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Triple Oak: Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.

I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?

Republicans have been lying through their teeth regarding their intents in Congress. "Laser-like focus on jobs", etc. Proof is there, they're trying a 42nd time to repeal a plan they created without putting a serious contender for a replacement, or an argument as to why it's so bad it needs repealing with the aforementioned laser-like effort (or lazer, if you prefer). If they came out and said they have a plan for the people to consider, and it was a serious, thought-out plan to help all Americans, it would be very easy to look at the plan without judgment for the offeree and at the very least see what their idea is. Nope, needs repealing, government shutdown looming but still pushing "priorities" around, no serious budget balancing discussions to be had.

I'll take your argument about everything bad Republicans have done prima facie.  Just don't tell me how open minded you are and how willing you are to listen to their points of view while making that argument, ok?


I'm one of the people who will watch what you do and compare it to what you say. It's hard to forget history but it's not impossible for someone to have a change of heart. What I see from the Republicans now is more baseless party support and spinning wheels. If an individual Republican came out and said something intelligent about a policy or suggested a change that would be more beneficial than what's out there, I'll stop and listen. Even if it's just a moment of clarity, it's still worthy of discussion. It's easy to make blanket statements about a party or political movement when there aren't any individuals who are making a positive difference. That's the beauty of free-thinking human beings; we can have these discussions intelligently when we choose to. I'm very open-minded, but I prefer to see results or at least proposed steps in the right direction.
2013-09-18 02:00:06 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative. I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

I forgot.  Finding anyone owning up to being conservative on Fark is about as rare as a conservative proposing legislation that isn't related to your religion, their religion, or your reproductive system.

You make me think of the teahadist that call Mitch McConnell a RINO.  It's like anyone that disagrees with your dogma must be your opposite.  It's sad that you and the 'baggers are so blinded by hatred that you can't envision an point of view that looks on both of your political views with disdain and contempt.


Who said I was blinded by hatred?  Oh, right, you, Capt. Hyperbole.  If you are going to argue that I am making extremist comments you probably shouldn't use the same tactic, ace.
2013-09-18 01:39:32 PM  
1 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Grungehamster: So question: if we give every individual a $7,000 deduction for health insurance (or $20,000 deduction per household). What will the 47% 43% of households that don't have a federal income tax liability increase to?

I asked the same question basically.

The cognitive dissonance train has left the station apparently.



... crickets....
2013-09-18 01:32:36 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Close2TheEdge: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

The poor ones? I don't think too many tears would be shed by the GOP. When you promote policies with that very purpose at the core, you can't claim ignorance later.


It's very hard to compromise with people when they think you want to kill their grandma.  I don't understand how the extreme left can't see that, or is it's sole purpose just a foil to the extreme right?  If so, that's cool, just don't expect people to respect your opinions.

I recall the GOP crowd cheered at a primary debate when "LET HIM DIE" was shouted during a debate surrounding a hypothetical coma patient with no insurance.

Well, yeah.  Those would be the bat-shiat insane tea baggers I've been comparing the extreme left to.  I seem to recall members of the GOP (both on stage and in the audience) cringing at the applause and cheering.
2013-09-18 01:27:26 PM  
1 votes:

Close2TheEdge: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

The poor ones? I don't think too many tears would be shed by the GOP. When you promote policies with that very purpose at the core, you can't claim ignorance later.


I recall the GOP crowd cheered at a primary debate when "LET HIM DIE" was shouted during a debate surrounding a hypothetical coma patient with no insurance.
2013-09-18 01:16:45 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


Yeah, you know how liberals think!

/No, you don't, you are hallucinating.
2013-09-18 01:13:38 PM  
1 votes:

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

I've been reading the thread a while and have yet to see you articulate what a good health care plan might be, just a lot of both sides are bad, and thank heaven I'm not one of them.

Care to put up or shut up?

Either would do, really.

BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?

This?  Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.


Give 'em a break.  It's much easier to argue with what the imaginary liberal said than what people in this thread are saying.

Thus, "Obamacare isn't perfect, but it's better than doing nothing" becomes either

a) "Obamacare sucks ass, but it pisses off Republicans so I'm for it," or
b) "Obamacare is flawless and perfect in every way."

Aren't those much easier to argue against?
2013-09-18 01:10:34 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.

I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?


Republicans have been lying through their teeth regarding their intents in Congress. "Laser-like focus on jobs", etc. Proof is there, they're trying a 42nd time to repeal a plan they created without putting a serious contender for a replacement, or an argument as to why it's so bad it needs repealing with the aforementioned laser-like effort (or lazer, if you prefer). If they came out and said they have a plan for the people to consider, and it was a serious, thought-out plan to help all Americans, it would be very easy to look at the plan without judgment for the offeree and at the very least see what their idea is. Nope, needs repealing, government shutdown looming but still pushing "priorities" around, no serious budget balancing discussions to be had.
2013-09-18 01:10:26 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.


Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.
2013-09-18 01:09:39 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


^^^ This is why conservatives should not be invited to the grown-ups table. They don't even have the barest scrap of wit to understand why they sound so foolish.
2013-09-18 01:09:15 PM  
1 votes:
The main problem here is how to get as much money as possible into the hands of the insurance companies. Until this is addressed, nothing will change.
2013-09-18 01:05:45 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Witty_Retort: For the previous 2 years, the increase has drastically slowed. From 01 to 10, it was climbing over 8% per year, last 2 years only 5%.

Those numbers do not at all seem to

jive with what I have seen, including my own experience which is double digit increases 5 years running and an 11% increase fro 2014. (Of course you ARE seeing more companies drop to worse plans to stave off these increases).

But I'm happy to see where you got those numbers from.


http://kff.org/report-section/2013-summary-of-findings/
Health Insurance Company Requests For Double Digit Premium Increases Plummeting

BojanglesPaladin: Witty_Retort: Shouldn't you be saying no to linkbait?

I don't have an issue with Slate like I do with ThinkProgress, NewsBusters, American Thinker, etc.


Just yanking your chain. Links from The Blaze are still good? Breitbart? Alex Jones?
FOX News?

Buried deep in the derp is:
"a forecast of sharply dropping premiums for individual health insurance in New York"

"meaning that by adding the federal requirement that all humans* not covered by a government program purchase insurance, the risk pool will expand and rates will drop."

But then they herped off to the debunked 88% rate hike in Ohio
2013-09-18 01:05:35 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: ....and Look. As predicted, there is your " 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!' comment exactly as predicted. Right on queue.

Don't let me stop you from proving me right.


I'll mark you down as considering 40-some votes to repeal/defund Obamacare as time well spent. *check*

Calling people juvenile for being Republican (or Democrat for that matter) is pretty stupid.
Calling people juvenile for being juvenile is accurate.
2013-09-18 01:01:46 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


I've been reading the thread a while and have yet to see you articulate what a good health care plan might be, just a lot of both sides are bad, and thank heaven I'm not one of them.

Care to put up or shut up?

Either would do, really.

BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?


This?  Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.
2013-09-18 12:58:03 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: "The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!


Well except even you now are admitting that the Republicans saying they had a plan all these years was a big lie.
2013-09-18 12:57:47 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.

If you are going to be offensive, at least put some ideas behind it.  "Hurr!  I made a joke at your expense!" is not really what you want to be going for, is it?


So you're done with making your points and you're now settled into "Trying to make fun of you for making fun of me" banter... fascinating. So, can you recap what your points in the thread were?
2013-09-18 12:54:48 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system

Granted. Now review the contents of this thread and see how much of it is a rational discussion of the ways in which such a seemingly contradictory set of objectives could be reconciled, and how much is "herpderp Republicans are the sux0r!"

And even if we were having a discussion of viable, workable alternatives to ACA, it's ultimately blindly speculative and moot because we have no real sense of what is being proposed. So sure, we COULD have a grand time playing the guessing game, but it's not really tied to any actual proposal from the Republicans, and few here are doing that anyway.


None of which makes your comment that there is 'nothing to discuss' any more valid.

And, considering the GOP has spent 3 years in a juvenile display of footstomping by holding repeated and futile repeal/defund votes without any kind of serious proposal of their own, until now (even though this one is still being kept under wraps for some reason), saying that the GOP sucks on this issue is pretty much a bullseye.
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:53:56 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican

What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.

This is a stupid, nilhist argument.  "You can't be making sense because your using a word in a way that I disagree with!"


That's not the argument being made.  The argument is, in a nutshell, that "liberal" doesn't simply mean something you don't like.  It's valid (though right now with the idiocy of the debate useless) to point out that words actually have meanings and can't be reformed to fit what you want them to mean.
2013-09-18 12:45:02 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican


What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.
2013-09-18 12:32:37 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.

Then you aren't very good at reading comprehension.


I'm willing to admit I might have missed a post like that, but I doubt I read it and didn't realize it. Perhaps you could point one of them out for me. It's easy, just quote it like you did me.
2013-09-18 12:31:26 PM  
1 votes:
MadHatter500:

You are a complete ass.  Good thing you can be an ITG.  At a bar you'd be beaten bloody with this attitude.

See, I don't get ITG at all....I totally get foppish dandy

who would scream and tremble and the mere thought of fisticuffs.  While sniffing snuff from a tiny laquer box with his elegant, yet freakishly female fingers.
2013-09-18 12:29:55 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative. I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.


I forgot.  Finding anyone owning up to being conservative on Fark is about as rare as a conservative proposing legislation that isn't related to your religion, their religion, or your reproductive system.
2013-09-18 12:26:51 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?

The important thing is that both sides are bad.

I think this may be the most cogent thing a liberal has said in this thread.  Yes, both sides *are* bad, which is the unfortunate outcome whenever both sides are extremist only interested in demonizing the other.


...said the guy complaining about the behavior of imaginary liberals in his head.
2013-09-18 12:25:00 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Everyone's insurance continues to go up year over year,


For the previous 2 years, the increase has drastically slowed. From 01 to 10, it was climbing over 8% per year, last 2 years only 5%.
2013-09-18 12:23:12 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

Haha! The Farklibs are eating their own again! Real funny stuff... angels and whatnot!


Im starting to miss skinnyhead..

At least he was amusing,
2013-09-18 12:22:23 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: vpb: Aristocles: No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.

Fark individual freedom.  People created society for a reason, because anarchy sucks.

Besides, you're "individual freedom" is more about scamming the rest of us into paying for your health care.

Obamacare will force the well-to-do to pay for my health care. But I believe that freedom is more important.

btw, I'm somewhat of an anarchist... or so I've been told.


Anarchists tend not to march in lockstep, no matter what your mom told you.
2013-09-18 12:17:20 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "

At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.


Your 'idea' was to predict future behavior by 'all the liberals' and then criticize them for that as-yet-to-happen behavior? I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:16:41 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Also, you might want to review the teabagger 2010 election results which were among other things, a response to ACA. Also worth reviewing that while you can get numbers if you ask about a particular piece of ACA (and there ARE some really good reforms in the turdpile), the overall popularity is not exactly overwhelming.


Yes, you can pretty much get the numbers for EACH piece of the ACA.  The reason people are worried about is is that they keep hearing about all the bad things in it.  Of course, those bad things don't exist, but that's how spin works.

It was the same with Social Security and Medicare.  Once the law comes into effect it will become a political third rail like Social security.
2013-09-18 12:16:32 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.


Looks like the House GOP plan is ... get ready for it ... tax cuts!

Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.

Myself, I would rather see a single payer system, but looks like the ACA is the better path for now.
2013-09-18 12:14:33 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: "The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!


Scalise didn't give a lot of details during that phone call , but said the bill would include protections for people with pre-existing conditions - one of the main benefits of Obamacare.
"We address that to make sure that people with pre-existing conditions cannot be discriminated against," he said.
He promised, however, that it would not "put in place mandates that increase the costs of health care and push people out of the insurance that they like."


Plenty to discuss.
2013-09-18 12:08:15 PM  
1 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Without having seen the bill I still feel I can confidently predict the language will include some, if not all, of the following:

Corporate tax cuts
Replacing Medicaid and Medicare with vouchers that will be massively useful when a 77-year-old with diabetes and congestive heart failure goes shopping on the free market for insurance
Requirements that anyone applying for said vouchers must register as a Republican and give proxy to a panel comprised of Karl Rove, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh and Snuggle, the Fabric Softener Bear
Corporate tax cuts. Different ones, but still.
$1.5 trillion in direct payments to defense contractors to invent a gun that fires poor people at Muslins


Actually, from what I've read, it's more like this:

Open up interstate sales (meaning I can buy insurance from Delaware even though it doesn't meet Kansas's regulatory requirements)
Spend a little money on high-risk pools for people with PREX
Cap non-economic losses in medical malpractice suits
Give everyone buying individual insurance a big tax deduction
Expanding HSAs
Let small businesses pool together for purchasing health insurance

It's an absolutely atrocious plan that is, in my mind, worse than what we had pre-ObamaCare.
2013-09-18 12:07:05 PM  
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)


I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.
2013-09-18 12:05:58 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "
2013-09-18 12:03:58 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.

Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.


You do realize that is how you lose elections and lose faith, right?  By being a worthless sack of obstructionist douchebags for 4.5 years.  I mean, we'll take a look and listen to what they have to say, but ultimately why would we think - without seeing it yet - that it would do anything but help HMOs and doctors more and regular people less?  They have done nothing for anyone in the lower classes except sh*t on their faces.

Why do you enjoy having your face sh*t upon?
2013-09-18 12:03:39 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.

Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.


You are a complete ass.  Good thing you can be an ITG.  At a bar you'd be beaten bloody with this attitude.
2013-09-18 12:01:02 PM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]

This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


Your basic premise was proved incorrect in previous posts.  At this point, I don't think you believe the stuff you're posting.
2013-09-18 11:59:38 AM  
1 votes:
Mr. Whiteman, paging Mr. Whiteman! Mr. Whiteman to the Caucasian courtesy phone!

Tell me the difference between this group and a secret Klan rally?

www.slate.com
2013-09-18 11:55:32 AM  
1 votes:

AirForceVet: Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.

I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.

Also, IMHO, I strongly suspect that the GOP leaders are terrified when the majority of American people realize what President Obama has done with creating ObamaCare, that majority will realize an African-American could be a great President for all the people.


Meanwhile at the GOP HQ

static.squarespace.com

http://nooooooooooooooo.com
2013-09-18 11:53:41 AM  
1 votes:
Without having seen the bill I still feel I can confidently predict the language will include some, if not all, of the following:

Corporate tax cuts
Replacing Medicaid and Medicare with vouchers that will be massively useful when a 77-year-old with diabetes and congestive heart failure goes shopping on the free market for insurance
Requirements that anyone applying for said vouchers must register as a Republican and give proxy to a panel comprised of Karl Rove, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh and Snuggle, the Fabric Softener Bear
Corporate tax cuts. Different ones, but still.
$1.5 trillion in direct payments to defense contractors to invent a gun that fires poor people at Muslins
2013-09-18 11:52:51 AM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.
2013-09-18 11:37:27 AM  
1 votes:
I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.
2013-09-18 11:33:17 AM  
1 votes:

vpb: Diogenes: Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.

I think pretty much everyone sees this as a first step, not the ultimate solution.


I would hope so.  But I'm really leery about half measures.  By their very nature they're prone to failure, which prevents us from getting to the ultimate goal.  People use the failure of the step as evidence that the goal is bad.
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 11:24:28 AM  
1 votes:
I strongly suspect that the Republican plan will be written by lobbyists from the insurance industry.

I can't imagine that there will be anything for ordinary citizens in it.
2013-09-18 11:22:42 AM  
1 votes:

Carn: They don't like the mandate, originally a conservative idea, so they'll probably surprise everyone and replace it with single payer.  Ha! Take that Obama!


Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.
2013-09-18 11:21:35 AM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.


[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]
2013-09-18 11:15:45 AM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.
2013-09-18 11:13:18 AM  
1 votes:

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...
2013-09-18 10:48:00 AM  
1 votes:

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.
2013-09-18 10:47:50 AM  
1 votes:
Too little, too late, assholes.
2013-09-18 10:37:11 AM  
1 votes:
Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.
 
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