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(Slate)   Conservatives long awaited Obamacare replacement bill is set to be unveiled, laughed at   (slate.com) divider line 473
    More: Amusing, obamacare  
•       •       •

2819 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2013 at 11:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



473 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-09-18 02:37:20 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?


The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.
 
2013-09-18 02:37:40 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.


Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.
 
2013-09-18 02:38:55 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Certain FARKers have done - and continue to do - an amazing job at holding libs accountable for things they never said.


Libralllllls
Inside my heeeeeaaaaddd
Echoooo
Things no one said....
 
2013-09-18 02:39:37 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.


Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.
 
2013-09-18 02:39:57 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.


hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.
 
2013-09-18 02:40:05 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.


Can you suppose that you might care to hazard a guess as to what those one or two things might be?
 
2013-09-18 02:40:25 PM  

Heliovdrake: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.


Don't you see? It's based on empirical evidence! It's probably lost under the couch.
 
2013-09-18 02:41:03 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.

hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.


What did I erase? I did not modify your post in any way. You can go back and look.  Where's this empirical evidence?
 
2013-09-18 02:42:36 PM  

phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.



Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?
 
2013-09-18 02:43:25 PM  

Heliovdrake: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.


There's a white elephant if I've ever seen one...
 
2013-09-18 02:45:59 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?


It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.
 
2013-09-18 02:46:41 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.

hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.

What did I erase? I did not modify your post in any way. You can go back and look.  Where's this empirical evidence?


You seemed to be treating "empirical" as some sort of magic word.  You realize it simply means "based on observation and experience rather than theory", right?  Sorry if you expected me to keep it all recorded in a notebook.

Of course, we both know you are trying to weasel out of owning up to your logical fallacy in which you said, "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).
 
2013-09-18 02:48:19 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You seemed to be treating "empirical" as some sort of magic word.  You realize it simply means "based on observation and experience rather than theory", right?  Sorry if you expected me to keep it all recorded in a notebook.


Correct. If there is evidence, you should be able to provide it. Where is it?
 
2013-09-18 02:48:23 PM  
Welp, thread just got lots shorter.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:04 PM  

Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).


The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:14 PM  

InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.


As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:45 PM  

gnosis301: Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Republican alternative was single payer health care?


Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Democrats then came out against it?

/not bloody likely, but if it *did* happen, it would be at that point that I would be 100% certain that the universe is trolling us
 
2013-09-18 02:50:15 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Welp, thread just got lots shorter.


Did you get a new ignore, or was it due to the fist of Mod?
 
2013-09-18 02:51:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right


Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?
 
2013-09-18 02:51:26 PM  

born_yesterday: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Welp, thread just got lots shorter.

Did you get a new ignore, or was it due to the fist of Mod?


I just added to my list.

Which I rarely, rarely do.
 
2013-09-18 02:51:41 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).

The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.


Unless you are going to tell me you have a kinder, gentler definition for "leftist" than the one I've been using, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:07 PM  
Lucky seems to define "extreme" as "anyone I disagree with," apparently.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:33 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month


CSB:  We recently got into the federal risk pool for health care, which cut our monthly premium from $1600+ (granted, for a family) to about $300.  Per month.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).

The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.

Unless you are going to tell me you have a kinder, gentler definition for "leftist" than the one I've been using, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.


A leftist is not simply anyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP. You appear to believe that a moderate is someone who disagrees some with the left and some with the right. This is fallacy
 
2013-09-18 02:53:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.

Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough. Seriously.  You guys suck.


As has been said, no matter how much thou doth protest, you fit in this category better than most in this thread.
 
2013-09-18 02:53:24 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right

Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?


Dude.. what's the point?  Your aren't even arguing anymore; you are just grabbing snatches of conversation and imbuing them with as much hate-filled rhetoric as you can manage before sending them out for our amusement.
 
2013-09-18 02:54:54 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.


Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?


Fair enough question. The answer is that I have a son and step-daughter who still live there and the laws do indeed have an impact on them. As a result, I care about how it all plays out.
 
2013-09-18 02:55:19 PM  

xanadian: DROxINxTHExWIND: Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month

CSB:  We recently got into the federal risk pool for health care, which cut our monthly premium from $1600+ (granted, for a family) to about $300.  Per month.


Damn. That is a nice chunk of change.
 
2013-09-18 02:55:37 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: Lucky LaRue: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.

Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough. Seriously.  You guys suck.

As has been said, no matter how much thou doth protest, you fit in this category better than most in this thread.


I'm just here to mock and ridicule extremist.  I'm not sure how that makes me an extremist..
 
2013-09-18 02:56:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right

Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?

Dude.. what's the point?  Your aren't even arguing anymore; you are just grabbing snatches of conversation and imbuing them with as much hate-filled rhetoric as you can manage before sending them out for our amusement.


Hate-filled? Where? You've got to be kidding. Disagreeing is not "hate"
 
2013-09-18 02:58:46 PM  
I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.
 
2013-09-18 02:59:38 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.


So you consider yourself a moderate, then?
 
2013-09-18 03:00:11 PM  

phenn: I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab


Maybe.

- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people

Why?

- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix

For whom?  And how?

- Doesn't address cost of care issues

I'll give you that one.  And is one of my beefs with the plan.

- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships

How?

- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Please explain.
 
2013-09-18 03:01:48 PM  

xanadian: gnosis301: Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Republican alternative was single payer health care?

Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Democrats then came out against it?

/not bloody likely, but if it *did* happen, it would be at that point that I would be 100% certain that the universe is trolling us


Considering the public option was taken out at the request of democrats who were in the insurance companies' pocket, it wouldn't surprise me if they did vote against it.
 
2013-09-18 03:02:12 PM  

phenn: Satan's Bunny Slippers: phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.


Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?

Fair enough question. The answer is that I have a son and step-daughter who still live there and the laws do indeed have an impact on them. As a result, I care about how it all plays out.


Fair enough.
 
2013-09-18 03:03:01 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.


Almost wife-like?
 
2013-09-18 03:05:23 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: OK, a prick is a much more apt description.


Well, I really think that goes without saying, doesn't it?
 
2013-09-18 03:06:30 PM  

2wolves: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Almost wife-like?


This had me laughing to the core.
 
2013-09-18 03:14:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Well, I really think that goes without saying, doesn't it?


Would that it did.  Would that it did.

You seem to revel in the saying of it, over and over.
 
2013-09-18 03:17:37 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: I'm glad to see they finally brought their comprehensive plan to fruition

[api.ning.com image 279x412]


Belated apologies.  I hadn't seen your post when I posted the exact same image a bit later.
 
2013-09-18 03:17:53 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?


I consider myself to be center-left.
 
2013-09-18 03:21:37 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?

I consider myself to be center-left.


So, you ♥ Stalin?
 
2013-09-18 03:23:56 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?

I consider myself to be center-left.

So, you ♥ Stalin?


Obviously. Since I disagree with the GOP 100% of the time, I must be an extreme lefty commie libby lib.
 
2013-09-18 03:24:09 PM  
Flab:

- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
Why?


The mandate itself takes a few options off the table (self-insuring, concierge care) and premiums can end up rather dear if you make a decent living. I know, if you make a decent living, you should be insured. But, the offerings - gold, platinum, etc - are quite costly (according to the online calculator) and coverage percentages and out of pocket expenses don't seem quite worth it to me.

- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
For whom?  And how?


Well, the federal government will now have a hand in managing state medicaid disbursements. Say your state's medicaid is run efficiently. Federal oversight adds another cog. Seems redundant and unnecessary.

- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
How?


Approved vs. unapproved charges for services. I do think it should be between you and your doc and not according to fee schedules. Yes, I realize insurance companies already do this and there's probably no way around it.

- Going to be a fustercluck to manage
Please explain.


See above about medicaid. Add in the IRS to collect fines/taxes on non-compliant people. I'm just not seeing how it possibly could be managed in an efficient manner. This doesn't even take into account hospital reimbursements for patients who are under the radar (homeless, etc.). Look at how screwy Medicare got when they switched things in the early 1990s. It's a confusing, cumbersome process to work through for the patient, the hospital, the doctor and so on.

I'm sure there were tremendously good intentions (for some) that drove health care reform. But, it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.

Take everything I just said and table it for a moment. The core problem - cost of care - still exists and I don't think ACA will do anything but drive it up further.
 
2013-09-18 03:24:29 PM  

phenn: - [Obamacare is] going to be difficult on self-employed people


Huh? Self-employed people are who it helps! None of them can get insurance right now if they have pre-existing conditions (and it doesn't take canceraids - something like sleep apnea can make you uninsurable, and Heaven forbid you're a woman whose uterus is still present).

phenn: - Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships


Does it? I hadn't read of anything in the health policy blogs along those lines. There was a lot of stuff spewing from the noise machine about doctors being required to ask about your sex life, everyone getting implanted with RFIDs, yadda yadda yadda, but nothing based in reality.

Insurers will still have lost of annoying hoops for your doctor to jump through, but if anything that ought to be lessened by Obamacare as insurers are more heavily regulated, and with a regulated minimum medical loss ratio, there's less incentive to just throw up arbirtary utilization barriers.
 
2013-09-18 03:26:50 PM  

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.


Oh so you created a strawman with a false equivalency?

So ... So ....so close to the logical fallacy hat trick.   Better luck next time.
 
2013-09-18 03:28:16 PM  

theknuckler_33: I'll mark you down as considering 40-some votes to repeal/defund Obamacare as time well spent.


I did not say it was, and you know that. I didn't even say anything at all about it.

But by all means, keep on proving my point for me.
 
2013-09-18 03:29:47 PM  

phenn: it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.


Health care's different - there's no functional market for the government to gum up. Consumers are neither rational nor informed about it, principal-agent problems abound, pricing is totally arbirtary and opaque, and it's not even excludable thanks to things like EMTALA and basic humanity.

A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.
 
2013-09-18 03:31:51 PM  

InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.

Oh so you created a strawman with a false equivalency?

So ... So ....so close to the logical fallacy hat trick.   Better luck next time.


Simple disagreement with an observation does not indicate fallacy.  Even if - and this is important, because I know your mom told you you were special - even if it's your opinion.
 
2013-09-18 03:34:46 PM  

Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.


If corporations didn't have legislators in their back pockets, you might see some real competition for premium dollars.

I don't think that's soon to happen, though.  :-(
 
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