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(Slate)   Conservatives long awaited Obamacare replacement bill is set to be unveiled, laughed at   (slate.com) divider line 473
    More: Amusing, obamacare  
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2816 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2013 at 11:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 12:35:18 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: Plenty to discuss.

Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, it's all just speculative partisan poo slinging. (Personally, I'm dubious that they have somehow formulated a winning alternative just now that somehow evaded them for the last 6 years).


No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system. I think that's a subject worthy of discussion in an online forum about politics... even if it is just speculative.
 
2013-09-18 12:36:01 PM  

Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?


I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.
 
2013-09-18 12:36:06 PM  

Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?


i159.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:36:27 PM  
i601.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:37:01 PM  

meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Just as soon as Republicans stop being evil and Democrats stop being spineless nematodes.
 
2013-09-18 12:38:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.


For once, I can't argue with you (I'm only talking about that last sentence).
 
2013-09-18 12:38:45 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

[i159.photobucket.com image 500x375]


Knuckle-dragging humor is rarely an effective means to defend your opinion, though it's sure to get a few laughs in your echo-chamber.
 
2013-09-18 12:38:47 PM  

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


i.istockimg.com
 
2013-09-18 12:39:16 PM  
www.cognitivedissident.org
Scalise's plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:17 PM  

Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior


I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:22 PM  
Not one person has used the word "unicorn" in their discussions, like the headline did. I think we need to refer to this more.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.


Maybe the great lesson in all of this is that there is no difference between dems and pubs. Perhaps they are all on the same side - theirs - and you and I don't enter into the equation inasmuch as decision making is concerned.

You and I are just cash cows to those in power.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:45 PM  

meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?



Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry
 
2013-09-18 12:40:46 PM  
imgick.nola.com

Scalise said that by tying the plan's tax breaks to the cost of insurance the RSC is encouraging "people to shop around," and choose their coverage more carefully because they get "more money in their pockets" by doing so.

My Momma told me...
You'd better shop around!
 
2013-09-18 12:41:11 PM  
I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 12:41:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue:
I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.



i865.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:42:01 PM  

theknuckler_33: No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system


Granted. Now review the contents of this thread and see how much of it is a rational discussion of the ways in which such a seemingly contradictory set of objectives could be reconciled, and how much is "herpderp Republicans are the sux0r!"

And even if we were having a discussion of viable, workable alternatives to ACA, it's ultimately blindly speculative and moot because we have no real sense of what is being proposed. So sure, we COULD have a grand time playing the guessing game, but it's not really tied to any actual proposal from the Republicans, and few here are doing that anyway.
 
2013-09-18 12:42:07 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.


If you are going to be offensive, at least put some ideas behind it.  "Hurr!  I made a joke at your expense!" is not really what you want to be going for, is it?
 
2013-09-18 12:42:45 PM  
Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."
 
2013-09-18 12:43:11 PM  
Five years too late you dummies.

/willing to take a look
 
2013-09-18 12:43:36 PM  

phenn: Voiceofreason01: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.

Maybe the great lesson in all of this is that there is no difference between dems and pubs. Perhaps they are all on the same side - theirs - and you and I don't enter into the equation inasmuch as decision making is concerned.

You and I are just cash cows to those in power.


My issue with this line of thinking is that the ACA is having a real effect on peoples lives--most immediately, those with pre-existing conditions, and would have had more of one had single-payer been left in.  The Republicans have (until today, two weeks before implementation) proposed nothing.

The idea that there is no difference between the two parties does not hold up on the issue of health care.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:05 PM  
I see that the plan calls for patients to put the lime in the coconut and drink them both up.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:33 PM  

Maud Dib: Lucky LaRue:
I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[i865.photobucket.com image 360x450]


I am a labor Democrat, and I have voted for Democrat presidential nominees for the last 22 years, but don't let the facts stop you.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:59 PM  

Chummer45: Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."


Tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican


What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.


My dogmatic indoctrination?  what would that be?

For what it's worth, I get what you're trying to say about Politics-as-a-football-game, where anything one team does is good and everything the other team does is bad, being bad for the country in general.

But you're bad at getting the point across because you make assumptions about the people you interact with in this thread and succomb to the same "Us vs. Them" logic, and put everyone who finds a fault with your reasoning in the "Them" category.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:39 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.


What, do you think your own political views are inferior or something? That's happened to be a few times. I changed my mind though, instead of calling other people smug for not being stupid on purpose.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:48 PM  
The bill from the Republican Study Committee would fully repeal the 2010 law and replace it with an expansion of health savings accounts, medical liability reform and the elimination of restrictions on purchasing insurance across state lines.

Scalise: "Warmed up shiatloaf! Get yer warmed up shiatloaf here!"
 
2013-09-18 12:46:24 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


Agreed.
 
2013-09-18 12:46:27 PM  

physt: Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.

[i.istockimg.com image 380x380]



So is the draft, jury duty, taxes, death, and crippling disease.  But it's all stuff that's a fact of life and that we as a society have to deal with.

Most people shouting "individual freedom!" nowadays just think that word means being allowed to live in society without contributing to it in any way, shape or form.  Those people tend to be very eager to take advantage of government benefits when they suddenly need them.

The tea partiers need to grow up intellectually, and move beyond their childish "f everyone else, I have mine" mentality.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:06 PM  

LincolnLogolas: Chummer45: Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."

Tax cuts.



Seriously - I think that the GOP's magic wand consists of (1) tax cuts (2) deregulation (3) cutting spending (except on things they like, i.e., the military).
 
2013-09-18 12:48:14 PM  
Yeah, it's going to be free market healthcare. Because, as anyone who has dealt with them can tell you, insurance companies are outstanding models of efficiency and service.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:24 PM  

error 303: Obamacare is the conservative/Republican alternative to a liberal/Democrat healthcare solution. Altneratives include the status quo, which all seem to agree has failed, "Medicare for all", single payer, or public option. The only real conservative alternative healthcare solution I see is continue with the health care policies we've had in this country that got us to this point in the first place, with some handy wavey notion of "tort reform" and lip service to "personal responsibility".

It's really frustrating that Republican's haven't claimed this as a victory. They won the health care debate and now are activly trying to bring us to a system that has been showed to fail.


Apparently Republicans are admitting that their beloved AEI was full of shiat in the 1990s.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:35 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


I getcha. Can we replace those pictures with appropriately Photoshopped pictures of McConnell wearing a shell, or Boehner with his eyes way closer together? I would like those better.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:49:01 PM  

Poopspasm: I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.


static.guim.co.uk

Part 3. is an integral part of the 5 year tax cut plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:50:25 PM  
I'm starting to wish Obama had proposed Hillarycare.  Then we'd have gotten exactly what we wanted out of the Republicans.
 
2013-09-18 12:51:05 PM  

2wolves: Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican

What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.


This is a stupid, nilhist argument.  "You can't be making sense because your using a word in a way that I disagree with!"
 
2013-09-18 12:51:33 PM  

odinsposse: Yeah, it's going to be free market healthcare. Because, as anyone who has dealt with them can tell you, insurance companies are outstanding models of efficiency and service.


And we can certainly trust insurance companies to act with the best interests of their customers in mind, rather than acting to increase profits.  A government agency, on the other hand.....
 
2013-09-18 12:53:40 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry


And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:53:56 PM  

Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican

What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.

This is a stupid, nilhist argument.  "You can't be making sense because your using a word in a way that I disagree with!"


That's not the argument being made.  The argument is, in a nutshell, that "liberal" doesn't simply mean something you don't like.  It's valid (though right now with the idiocy of the debate useless) to point out that words actually have meanings and can't be reformed to fit what you want them to mean.
 
2013-09-18 12:54:48 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system

Granted. Now review the contents of this thread and see how much of it is a rational discussion of the ways in which such a seemingly contradictory set of objectives could be reconciled, and how much is "herpderp Republicans are the sux0r!"

And even if we were having a discussion of viable, workable alternatives to ACA, it's ultimately blindly speculative and moot because we have no real sense of what is being proposed. So sure, we COULD have a grand time playing the guessing game, but it's not really tied to any actual proposal from the Republicans, and few here are doing that anyway.


None of which makes your comment that there is 'nothing to discuss' any more valid.

And, considering the GOP has spent 3 years in a juvenile display of footstomping by holding repeated and futile repeal/defund votes without any kind of serious proposal of their own, until now (even though this one is still being kept under wraps for some reason), saying that the GOP sucks on this issue is pretty much a bullseye.
 
2013-09-18 12:54:53 PM  
i194.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:55:19 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

[i.imgur.com image 373x330]


i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 12:56:03 PM  

meat0918: DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry

And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?



Exactly.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:56:25 PM  
meat0918:
I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?

In Indiana we've got a Governor and a U.S. Senator that are putting forth the "...but you can always go to the emergency room" claim with a straight face.  They effectively represent the insurance lobby, not their constituencies.  It's one of the stupidest arguments one can make in the entire debate.
 
2013-09-18 12:56:35 PM  
Just because I can't post this enough:

Mitt Romney asking for Obama to pass pretty much exactly what "Obamacare" turned out to be, before Obama made it the plan then Romney and Republicans were massively against it:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20090730/column30_s t. art.htm
 
2013-09-18 12:56:39 PM  

d23: Poopspasm: I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

Part 3. is an integral part of the 5 year tax cut plan.


It took way too long for someone to post that.
 
2013-09-18 12:56:56 PM  
$20k deduction ?

That will swell the EITC rolls by how many million households?
 
2013-09-18 12:57:02 PM  

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


In a country of 300 million plus, you should chillax on the whole individual freedom thing. Feel free to jump on that raft with the religious family.
 
2013-09-18 12:57:42 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: TuteTibiImperes: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

So, they want to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage without inflated rates, but they want to do away with the individual mandate?

I love that idea.  If implemented well it has the potential to bankrupt the health insurance companies within several years.   Then we can install a universal single payer system like we should have to begin with.

In that case, I'll start screaming about how good it is for the country!

Hooray retarded Republican last-minute half-assed effort!!


That would be hilarious, but I would immediately start verifying known constants and laws of physics.
 
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