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(Slate)   Conservatives long awaited Obamacare replacement bill is set to be unveiled, laughed at   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, obamacare  
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2821 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2013 at 11:50 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



473 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-18 10:37:11 AM  
Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.
 
2013-09-18 10:39:44 AM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


or the same thing with half the benefits
 
2013-09-18 10:47:07 AM  
Reading from the text of the proposed bill: "Oo ee oo ah ah, ting, tang, walla walla bing bang"
 
2013-09-18 10:47:50 AM  
Too little, too late, assholes.
 
2013-09-18 10:48:00 AM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.
 
2013-09-18 10:49:05 AM  
Will it have three circles with words in them, and lines connecting those circles.
 
2013-09-18 10:50:49 AM  
They don't like the mandate, originally a conservative idea, so they'll probably surprise everyone and replace it with single payer.  Ha! Take that Obama!
 
2013-09-18 10:51:26 AM  
point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.
 
2013-09-18 10:52:18 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


So, they want to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage without inflated rates, but they want to do away with the individual mandate?

I love that idea.  If implemented well it has the potential to bankrupt the health insurance companies within several years.  Then we can install a universal single payer system like we should have to begin with.
 
2013-09-18 10:52:40 AM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


You were just using me
And there is no one you can use now

/Only time will tell if this is a good idea. . .
 
2013-09-18 10:56:52 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?
 
2013-09-18 10:57:26 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

So, they want to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage without inflated rates, but they want to do away with the individual mandate?

I love that idea.  If implemented well it has the potential to bankrupt the health insurance companies within several years.   Then we can install a universal single payer system like we should have to begin with.


In that case, I'll start screaming about how good it is for the country!

Hooray retarded Republican last-minute half-assed effort!!
 
2013-09-18 10:58:54 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.
 
2013-09-18 11:00:44 AM  

FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.


Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.
 
2013-09-18 11:03:48 AM  
Ahh, yes, the "If they would rather die they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population" Act of 2013
 
2013-09-18 11:07:57 AM  

mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.


Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.
 
2013-09-18 11:13:18 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...
 
2013-09-18 11:15:45 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.
 
2013-09-18 11:18:30 AM  

mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...


I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.
 
2013-09-18 11:21:35 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.


[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]
 
2013-09-18 11:21:38 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.


Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.
 
2013-09-18 11:22:42 AM  

Carn: They don't like the mandate, originally a conservative idea, so they'll probably surprise everyone and replace it with single payer.  Ha! Take that Obama!


Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.
 
2013-09-18 11:24:02 AM  
Seeing how the exchanges are going online like tomorrow, the timing of this alternative proposal is just marvy.
 
2013-09-18 11:24:03 AM  

HighOnCraic: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]


This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 11:24:28 AM  
I strongly suspect that the Republican plan will be written by lobbyists from the insurance industry.

I can't imagine that there will be anything for ordinary citizens in it.
 
2013-09-18 11:24:48 AM  
"We've obviously fought very hard to repeal the bill, to unravel different pieces on it that are falling on its own weight, anyway," Scalise said in a brief phone interview at the time. "But we've also been working to put together a true alternative that would lower market costs and fix some real problems that existed before Obamacare that are made worse with it."

i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 11:25:22 AM  

Diogenes: Carn: They don't like the mandate, originally a conservative idea, so they'll probably surprise everyone and replace it with single payer.  Ha! Take that Obama!

Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.


That would be like some serious fourth dimensional chess and would change him from "ok" to "greatest presidential strategist evar" in my book.
 
2013-09-18 11:25:37 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.

Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.


I don't want to talk to you because you're full of shiat.  Bye!
 
2013-09-18 11:26:05 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.


Says the guy who thinks he knows what all libs WILL do when this plan, whatever it is, is unveiled.

This is either utter stupidity or brilliant trolling.
 
2013-09-18 11:26:07 AM  

vpb: I strongly suspect that the Republican plan will be written by lobbyists from the insurance industry.

I can't imagine that there will be anything for ordinary citizens in it.


I believe the insurance industry *loves* the idea of a system that mandates everyone sign up (and pay) for insurance.
 
2013-09-18 11:26:31 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.


The bill was passed and is now law. Anyone going against that is probably doing so because they have an obstructionist goal, and would fark the country rather than do what is right.

A Republican, in other words.
 
2013-09-18 11:27:38 AM  

Lucky LaRue: vpb: I strongly suspect that the Republican plan will be written by lobbyists from the insurance industry.

I can't imagine that there will be anything for ordinary citizens in it.

I believe the insurance industry *loves* the idea of a system that mandates everyone sign up (and pay) for insurance.


Probably hates the idea of a system with mandatory 15% or lower overhead, though.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 11:28:26 AM  

Diogenes: Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.


I think pretty much everyone sees this as a first step, not the ultimate solution.
 
2013-09-18 11:29:25 AM  

sprawl15: "We've obviously fought very hard to repeal the bill, to unravel different pieces on it that are falling on its own weight, anyway," Scalise said in a brief phone interview at the time. "But we've also been working to put together a true alternative that would lower market costs and fix some real problems that existed before Obamacare that are made worse with it."

[i.imgur.com image 396x303]


Ok, I used to be a Latin geek (been too long, forgotten most of it) but I had to look up to see if indeed there was a latin word potato.  There is a very close word and I can now say with utmost veracity: "Potator sum".

potator, potatoris
noun
declension:  3rd declension
gender:  masculine
Definitions:
1. drinker, one who drinks
2. tippler, drinker of intoxicants
 
2013-09-18 11:30:52 AM  

vpb: Diogenes: Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.

I think pretty much everyone sees this as a first step, not the ultimate solution.


Step 2: destroy America with socialisms

...if I understand the conservative logic correctly
 
2013-09-18 11:30:57 AM  

Generation_D: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

The bill was passed and is now law. Anyone going against that is probably doing so because they have an obstructionist goal, and would fark the country rather than do what is right.

A Republican, in other words.


This is just the kind of clap-trap I am talking about.  In your world-view, anyone opposed to your agenda is an obstructionist who would rather f*ck the country than do what is right.  In the tea-baggers world-view, anyone opposed to their agenda is an unpatriotic socialist who would rather f*ck the country than stand up for freedom.

Both world views make for great entertainment, but are pretty f*cking ridiculous when it comes to governance.
 
2013-09-18 11:33:11 AM  
this is less than two weeks before enrollment starts...way to be on-the-ball GOP!
 
2013-09-18 11:33:17 AM  

vpb: Diogenes: Point Obama?  It would be awesome if that was his plan all along.

I don't believe that's the case at all.  But it would be delicious if it were true.

I think pretty much everyone sees this as a first step, not the ultimate solution.


I would hope so.  But I'm really leery about half measures.  By their very nature they're prone to failure, which prevents us from getting to the ultimate goal.  People use the failure of the step as evidence that the goal is bad.
 
2013-09-18 11:35:01 AM  

Carn: sprawl15: "We've obviously fought very hard to repeal the bill, to unravel different pieces on it that are falling on its own weight, anyway," Scalise said in a brief phone interview at the time. "But we've also been working to put together a true alternative that would lower market costs and fix some real problems that existed before Obamacare that are made worse with it."

[i.imgur.com image 396x303]

Ok, I used to be a Latin geek (been too long, forgotten most of it) but I had to look up to see if indeed there was a latin word potato.  There is a very close word and I can now say with utmost veracity: "Potator sum".

potator, potatoris
noun
declension:  3rd declension
gender:  masculine
Definitions:
1. drinker, one who drinks
2. tippler, drinker of intoxicants


I typed 'potato' into Google translate and got 'solanum' but I am pretty sure that is not correct.
 
2013-09-18 11:37:27 AM  
I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.
 
2013-09-18 11:39:12 AM  

Mike_LowELL: I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.


OK...that was funny
 
2013-09-18 11:39:21 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Too little, too late, assholes.


I'm against anything that makes my asshole late or smaller.
 
2013-09-18 11:40:01 AM  

sprawl15: Carn: sprawl15: "We've obviously fought very hard to repeal the bill, to unravel different pieces on it that are falling on its own weight, anyway," Scalise said in a brief phone interview at the time. "But we've also been working to put together a true alternative that would lower market costs and fix some real problems that existed before Obamacare that are made worse with it."

[i.imgur.com image 396x303]

Ok, I used to be a Latin geek (been too long, forgotten most of it) but I had to look up to see if indeed there was a latin word potato.  There is a very close word and I can now say with utmost veracity: "Potator sum".

potator, potatoris
noun
declension:  3rd declension
gender:  masculine
Definitions:
1. drinker, one who drinks
2. tippler, drinker of intoxicants

I typed 'potato' into Google translate and got 'solanum' but I am pretty sure that is not correct.


I saw another that has solanum tuberosum but I can't find solanum by itself.  But potato sum has a nice ring to it.
 
2013-09-18 11:41:13 AM  
The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.
 
2013-09-18 11:48:06 AM  

Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.


That's pretty typical of the ODS crowd.  Didn't like a third of LA Republicans recently blame the poor response to Hurricane Katrina on Obama?

These people are just insane.  They are literally separated from sanity.
 
2013-09-18 11:50:33 AM  

Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.


I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.

Also, IMHO, I strongly suspect that the GOP leaders are terrified when the majority of American people realize what President Obama has done with creating ObamaCare, that majority will realize an African-American could be a great President for all the people.
 
2013-09-18 11:52:51 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.
 
2013-09-18 11:53:41 AM  
Without having seen the bill I still feel I can confidently predict the language will include some, if not all, of the following:

Corporate tax cuts
Replacing Medicaid and Medicare with vouchers that will be massively useful when a 77-year-old with diabetes and congestive heart failure goes shopping on the free market for insurance
Requirements that anyone applying for said vouchers must register as a Republican and give proxy to a panel comprised of Karl Rove, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh and Snuggle, the Fabric Softener Bear
Corporate tax cuts. Different ones, but still.
$1.5 trillion in direct payments to defense contractors to invent a gun that fires poor people at Muslins
 
2013-09-18 11:55:32 AM  

AirForceVet: Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.

I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.

Also, IMHO, I strongly suspect that the GOP leaders are terrified when the majority of American people realize what President Obama has done with creating ObamaCare, that majority will realize an African-American could be a great President for all the people.


Meanwhile at the GOP HQ

static.squarespace.com

http://nooooooooooooooo.com
 
2013-09-18 11:56:36 AM  

coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.


Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.
 
2013-09-18 11:57:41 AM  
Is it tax cuts?

I bet it's tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 11:58:34 AM  
Obamacare is the conservative/Republican alternative to a liberal/Democrat healthcare solution. Altneratives include the status quo, which all seem to agree has failed, "Medicare for all", single payer, or public option. The only real conservative alternative healthcare solution I see is continue with the health care policies we've had in this country that got us to this point in the first place, with some handy wavey notion of "tort reform" and lip service to "personal responsibility".

It's really frustrating that Republican's haven't claimed this as a victory. They won the health care debate and now are activly trying to bring us to a system that has been showed to fail.
 
2013-09-18 11:58:55 AM  
"The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!
 
2013-09-18 11:59:17 AM  
I love snarky Yglesias.
 
2013-09-18 11:59:38 AM  
Mr. Whiteman, paging Mr. Whiteman! Mr. Whiteman to the Caucasian courtesy phone!

Tell me the difference between this group and a secret Klan rally?

www.slate.com
 
2013-09-18 12:00:47 PM  

minnesotaboy: Mr. Whiteman, paging Mr. Whiteman! Mr. Whiteman to the Caucasian courtesy phone!

Tell me the difference between this group and a secret Klan rally?

[www.slate.com image 568x346]


Better dressed.
 
2013-09-18 12:01:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]

This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


Your basic premise was proved incorrect in previous posts.  At this point, I don't think you believe the stuff you're posting.
 
2013-09-18 12:01:03 PM  

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.

Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.


Go ahead, name something of value that the GOP as a whole has done in the last 4.5 years.

And no, we will not accept trying (and failing) to repeal the ACA 41 (it may be more by now) times.

Pencils Ready...

BEGIN!
 
2013-09-18 12:01:03 PM  
Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Republican alternative was single payer health care?
 
2013-09-18 12:01:25 PM  

AirForceVet: I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now.


And I believe that ACA is much more like "No Child Left Behind" - well intentioned, utterly ineffective, too expensive to actually implement, and with enough bureaucratic nonsense for everyone on any side of the aisle to hate it. And once in place, very difficult to remove or replace.
 
2013-09-18 12:01:36 PM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


It's worse than that. His plan would 3x the current cost of most health care plans. It sounds as if he does not understand how insurance works.
 
2013-09-18 12:02:35 PM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


The pretend Liberal behavior described here is equal to with the real Conservative behavior.
 
2013-09-18 12:03:39 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.

Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.


You are a complete ass.  Good thing you can be an ITG.  At a bar you'd be beaten bloody with this attitude.
 
2013-09-18 12:03:42 PM  
So their health care bill is like Romney's economic plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:03:49 PM  

HighOnCraic: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

When did I stand in opposition? Where is the plan?

YOU are the one saying what "will" happen in the future. I'm pointing out what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Are you trolling? Seriously. How do you claim to "prove a point" about something non-existent?

Oh. I GET IT. You are one of those "I'm above it all" people...

I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]

This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Your basic premise was proved incorrect in previous posts.  At this point, I don't think you believe the stuff you're posting.


What is it that you assume my basic premise is, exactly, that it has been dis-proven?  I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.
 
2013-09-18 12:03:58 PM  

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.

Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.


You do realize that is how you lose elections and lose faith, right?  By being a worthless sack of obstructionist douchebags for 4.5 years.  I mean, we'll take a look and listen to what they have to say, but ultimately why would we think - without seeing it yet - that it would do anything but help HMOs and doctors more and regular people less?  They have done nothing for anyone in the lower classes except sh*t on their faces.

Why do you enjoy having your face sh*t upon?
 
2013-09-18 12:04:07 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Mike_LowELL: I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.

OK...that was funny


he's one of our best, along with PN.
 
2013-09-18 12:04:10 PM  

Mike_LowELL: I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.


Well played.
 
2013-09-18 12:04:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Generation_D: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

The bill was passed and is now law. Anyone going against that is probably doing so because they have an obstructionist goal, and would fark the country rather than do what is right.

A Republican, in other words.

This is just the kind of clap-trap I am talking about.  In your world-view, anyone opposed to your agenda is an obstructionist who would rather f*ck the country than do what is right.  In the tea-baggers world-view, anyone opposed to their agenda is an unpatriotic socialist who would rather f*ck the country than stand up for freedom.

Both world views make for great entertainment, but are pretty f*cking ridiculous when it comes to governance.


Says the guy who started the partisan attacks in this thread. You are worse than the people you claim to hate, because you erroneously place yourself above the fray.
 
2013-09-18 12:04:43 PM  

Ah, taking on the Fredo role in American Politics


nilesfiles.files.wordpress.comI can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

 
2013-09-18 12:04:45 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.


I see you just met HighonCraic :)
 
2013-09-18 12:05:31 PM  

Lucky LaRue: This is just the kind of clap-trap I am talking about.  In your world-view, anyone opposed to your agenda is an obstructionist who would rather f*ck the country than do what is right.  In the tea-baggers world-view, anyone opposed to their agenda is an unpatriotic socialist who would rather f*ck the country than stand up for freedom.

Both world views make for great entertainment, but are pretty f*cking ridiculous when it comes to governance.


"Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to both."
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:05:39 PM  

minnesotaboy: Mr. Whiteman, paging Mr. Whiteman! Mr. Whiteman to the Caucasian courtesy phone!

Tell me the difference between this group and a secret Klan rally?


No hoods?
 
2013-09-18 12:05:58 PM  

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "
 
2013-09-18 12:06:02 PM  

Heliovdrake: Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

The GOP has done nothing of value in the last 4.5 years.  This would be just extrapolation from the trending data.

Thanks for serving as yet another example that proves the point.

Go ahead, name something of value that the GOP as a whole has done in the last 4.5 years.

And no, we will not accept trying (and failing) to repeal the ACA 41 (it may be more by now) times.

Pencils Ready...

BEGIN!


So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican even if it is exactly what s/he wants, simply because it was put forward by a Republican?  Because, you know, that is what I am observing just now - I haven't opined on what the GOP has or has not done in the last 4.5 years.
 
2013-09-18 12:06:07 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: AirForceVet: I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now.

And I believe that ACA is much more like "No Child Left Behind" - well intentioned, utterly ineffective, too expensive to actually implement, and with enough bureaucratic nonsense for everyone on any side of the aisle to hate it. And once in place, very difficult to remove or replace.


I know right?

Really hard, the GOPs had like not one but 2 national elections, and even then another 41 shots... no joy there either.

It's almost like America wants the ACA.
 
2013-09-18 12:06:26 PM  
Holy shiat, this thread is on 5 popped collar alert.
 
2013-09-18 12:06:44 PM  

FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.


No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.
 
2013-09-18 12:07:05 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)


I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.
 
2013-09-18 12:07:34 PM  
Here comes the latest 3-page document extolling the virtues of the Free Market that everyone will pretend is an actual proposal for a bill.
 
2013-09-18 12:07:40 PM  

MadHatter500: Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

No such point was proved.  He said liberals aren't thrilled with the ACA, but it's better than nothing, not "It sucks but it pisses the right off so I'm for it"

If you can't see the difference, it's probably best to avoid trying to converse with you.

Listen, I'm not at all perturbed that you don't want to talk to me simply because I refuse to narrow my world-view down with the black-and-white filters you put on every day to make your hatred for the other side seem more righteous.

You are a complete ass.  Good thing you can be an ITG.  At a bar you'd be beaten bloody with this attitude.


Ah, yes.  When all else fails, turn your righteous anger towards violence and threats of violence.  You really *are* the opposite side of the teabagger coin, aren't you?
 
2013-09-18 12:08:15 PM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Without having seen the bill I still feel I can confidently predict the language will include some, if not all, of the following:

Corporate tax cuts
Replacing Medicaid and Medicare with vouchers that will be massively useful when a 77-year-old with diabetes and congestive heart failure goes shopping on the free market for insurance
Requirements that anyone applying for said vouchers must register as a Republican and give proxy to a panel comprised of Karl Rove, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh and Snuggle, the Fabric Softener Bear
Corporate tax cuts. Different ones, but still.
$1.5 trillion in direct payments to defense contractors to invent a gun that fires poor people at Muslins


Actually, from what I've read, it's more like this:

Open up interstate sales (meaning I can buy insurance from Delaware even though it doesn't meet Kansas's regulatory requirements)
Spend a little money on high-risk pools for people with PREX
Cap non-economic losses in medical malpractice suits
Give everyone buying individual insurance a big tax deduction
Expanding HSAs
Let small businesses pool together for purchasing health insurance

It's an absolutely atrocious plan that is, in my mind, worse than what we had pre-ObamaCare.
 
2013-09-18 12:09:56 PM  

balthan: Lucky LaRue: This is just the kind of clap-trap I am talking about.  In your world-view, anyone opposed to your agenda is an obstructionist who would rather f*ck the country than do what is right.  In the tea-baggers world-view, anyone opposed to their agenda is an unpatriotic socialist who would rather f*ck the country than stand up for freedom.

Both world views make for great entertainment, but are pretty f*cking ridiculous when it comes to governance.

"Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to both."


There are a lot of people in the world whose political views I respect, admire, and attempt to emulate.  But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.
 
2013-09-18 12:09:56 PM  
I am going to keep an open mind and give them the benefit of doubt.


/Ha! Not really.
 
2013-09-18 12:11:07 PM  
I hear that a Republican governor from Massachusetts had some pretty good ideas about healthcare reform.  What was his name again?
 
2013-09-18 12:11:59 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: I love snarky Yglesias.


Thanks for the heads up, now I know not to click.

--

It seems like the Farklib view is "If those darn teahadicans er fer it.... aaaaahm agin' it!" It's like dems and Farklibs don't really care about the problem at all, they just want to defeat their political opponents no matter the cost.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:12:18 PM  

Aristocles: No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


Fark individual freedom.  People created society for a reason, because anarchy sucks.

Besides, you're "individual freedom" is more about scamming the rest of us into paying for your health care.
 
2013-09-18 12:12:28 PM  

Heliovdrake: Really hard, the GOPs had like not one but 2 national elections, and even then another 41 shots... no joy there either.

It's almost like America wants the ACA.


The one is not evidence of the other, and I don't think one can say that "America wants ACA". Everyone's insurance continues to go up year over year, and most of the 'negative' parts have been delayed, so it's too early to say what America thinks about an implemented ACA.

Also, you might want to review the teabagger 2010 election results which were among other things, a response to ACA. Also worth reviewing that while you can get numbers if you ask about a particular piece of ACA (and there ARE some really good reforms in the turdpile), the overall popularity is not exactly overwhelming.
 
2013-09-18 12:13:14 PM  

theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "


At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.
 
2013-09-18 12:13:47 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: And I believe that ACA is much more like "No Child Left Behind" - well intentioned, utterly ineffective, too expensive to actually implement, and with enough bureaucratic nonsense for everyone on any side of the aisle to hate it. And once in place, very difficult to remove or replace.


[citation needed]
 
2013-09-18 12:14:12 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Reading from the text of the proposed bill: "Oo ee oo ah ah, ting, tang, walla walla bing bang"


I read it more as:

Pee ppo kro ha ha
Pee ppo kro ha ha
Pee ppo kro ha ha
And that means oh go screw
 
2013-09-18 12:14:30 PM  

coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.


They've got their projectors on at full strength!
 
2013-09-18 12:14:33 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: "The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!


Scalise didn't give a lot of details during that phone call , but said the bill would include protections for people with pre-existing conditions - one of the main benefits of Obamacare.
"We address that to make sure that people with pre-existing conditions cannot be discriminated against," he said.
He promised, however, that it would not "put in place mandates that increase the costs of health care and push people out of the insurance that they like."


Plenty to discuss.
 
2013-09-18 12:14:45 PM  
I'm glad to see they finally brought their comprehensive plan to fruition

api.ning.com
 
2013-09-18 12:14:59 PM  
Wouldn't the appropriate time to reveal this plan be back when ACA was being drafted and debated?  Or even in the run-up to the 2012 election?  How is this supposed to come across as anything but a hastily thrown-together opportunity to take yet another baseless pot-shot at the President?
 
2013-09-18 12:15:19 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Reading from the text of the proposed bill: "Oo ee oo ah ah, ting, tang, walla walla bing bang"


The new bill speaks in tongues, praise Jesus.
 
2013-09-18 12:15:39 PM  

vpb: Aristocles: No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.

Fark individual freedom.  People created society for a reason, because anarchy sucks.

Besides, you're "individual freedom" is more about scamming the rest of us into paying for your health care.


Obamacare will force the well-to-do to pay for my health care. But I believe that freedom is more important.

btw, I'm somewhat of an anarchist... or so I've been told.
 
2013-09-18 12:15:44 PM  
www.balloon-juice.com

So, are we back to this, yet?
 
2013-09-18 12:15:57 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Heliovdrake: Really hard, the GOPs had like not one but 2 national elections, and even then another 41 shots... no joy there either.

It's almost like America wants the ACA.

The one is not evidence of the other, and I don't think one can say that "America wants ACA". Everyone's insurance continues to go up year over year, and most of the 'negative' parts have been delayed, so it's too early to say what America thinks about an implemented ACA.

Also, you might want to review the teabagger 2010 election results which were among other things, a response to ACA. Also worth reviewing that while you can get numbers if you ask about a particular piece of ACA (and there ARE some really good reforms in the turdpile), the overall popularity is not exactly overwhelming.


Sure, if you mean they were a response to people like Sarah Palin repeatedly lighting their pants on fire about what was in the bill.
 
2013-09-18 12:16:32 PM  

Lucky LaRue: At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.


Looks like the House GOP plan is ... get ready for it ... tax cuts!

Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.

Myself, I would rather see a single payer system, but looks like the ACA is the better path for now.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 12:16:41 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Also, you might want to review the teabagger 2010 election results which were among other things, a response to ACA. Also worth reviewing that while you can get numbers if you ask about a particular piece of ACA (and there ARE some really good reforms in the turdpile), the overall popularity is not exactly overwhelming.


Yes, you can pretty much get the numbers for EACH piece of the ACA.  The reason people are worried about is is that they keep hearing about all the bad things in it.  Of course, those bad things don't exist, but that's how spin works.

It was the same with Social Security and Medicare.  Once the law comes into effect it will become a political third rail like Social security.
 
2013-09-18 12:16:44 PM  

HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!


Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.
 
2013-09-18 12:16:56 PM  
Has any Republican advocated for repealing the law that forces hospitals to treat people in an emergency regardless of their ability to pay? Because you can scream all you want about the free market, that law proves that there is a greater moral imperative to provide health care to people. It's a pretty significant mandate that's overlooked in these arguments.

Until you're ready to let people die on the streets because a hospital ran their credit first, there can't be any meaningful cost savings from free market solutions. It's already an inherently socialistic system. We're just paying for it in the most inefficient way.
 
2013-09-18 12:17:20 PM  

Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "

At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.


Your 'idea' was to predict future behavior by 'all the liberals' and then criticize them for that as-yet-to-happen behavior? I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.
 
2013-09-18 12:18:59 PM  
AirForceVet:

I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.

Also, IMHO, I strongly suspect that the GOP leaders are terrified when the majority of American people realize what President Obama has done with creating ObamaCare, that majority will realize an African-American could be a great President for all the people.


i1002.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:19:08 PM  

theknuckler_33: BojanglesPaladin: "The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!

Scalise didn't give a lot of details during that phone call , but said the bill would include protections for people with pre-existing conditions - one of the main benefits of Obamacare.
"We address that to make sure that people with pre-existing conditions cannot be discriminated against," he said.
He promised, however, that it would not "put in place mandates that increase the costs of health care and push people out of the insurance that they like."


Plenty to discuss.


From what I've read so far, they want to allow people with PREX who already have insurance to be able to go to another company if they want to. Basically every state already allows this. It really does nothing to help the people who already lack insurance, and it will probably hurt them since interstate sales will encourage insurance companies to consolidate in a state like Nebraska that can permanently ban coverage for people with PREX that happened at any point in their lifetime.
 
2013-09-18 12:19:15 PM  

Mentat: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?


The important thing is that both sides are bad.
 
2013-09-18 12:19:42 PM  

vpb: It was the same with Social Security and Medicare. Once the law comes into effect it will become a political third rail like Social security.


Keep your government hands off my Obamacare.
 
2013-09-18 12:19:54 PM  

Voiceofreason01: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

or the same thing with half the benefits


Offer the same thing only get rid of a good part of the benefit for poor people then call it a GOP masterpiece.
 
2013-09-18 12:20:12 PM  

theknuckler_33: I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.


Then you aren't very good at reading comprehension.
 
2013-09-18 12:20:29 PM  

Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.


Haha! The Farklibs are eating their own again! Real funny stuff... angels and whatnot!
 
2013-09-18 12:21:17 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 12:21:38 PM  

theknuckler_33: Your 'idea' was to predict future behavior by 'all the liberals' and then criticize them for that as-yet-to-happen behavior? I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.


There would be lots of liberals that would hate Obamacare if put forth by Republicans. 'Course, those same liberals also hate Obamacare as put forth by Obama. In my experience, most liberals realize Obamacare is better than what we had before, but not as good as what we really should have.

And the reason we don't have what we really should have is Derp.
 
2013-09-18 12:22:04 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?

The important thing is that both sides are bad.


I think this may be the most cogent thing a liberal has said in this thread.  Yes, both sides *are* bad, which is the unfortunate outcome whenever both sides are extremist only interested in demonizing the other.
 
2013-09-18 12:22:09 PM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


They'd be right.
 
2013-09-18 12:22:13 PM  

theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "

At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing.  I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.

Your 'idea' was to predict future behavior by 'all the liberals' and then criticize them for that as-yet-to-happen behavior? I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.


*raises hand*  Actually, one guy did say what he would do if the Republicans proposed single-payer universal coverage, but he said he would support them.  Does that count for partial credit?

Lucky LaRue: Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits


We'll have to settle on you being "a person whose opinion is different from ours".
 
2013-09-18 12:22:23 PM  

Aristocles: vpb: Aristocles: No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.

Fark individual freedom.  People created society for a reason, because anarchy sucks.

Besides, you're "individual freedom" is more about scamming the rest of us into paying for your health care.

Obamacare will force the well-to-do to pay for my health care. But I believe that freedom is more important.

btw, I'm somewhat of an anarchist... or so I've been told.


Anarchists tend not to march in lockstep, no matter what your mom told you.
 
2013-09-18 12:22:25 PM  
I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack
 
2013-09-18 12:22:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits


oh holy sh*t you can't be for real
 
2013-09-18 12:22:56 PM  

AirForceVet: I believe the real issue is the Democrats have introduced the ACA that, once implemented, will become popular like Social Security and Medicare are now. That's why the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from full deployment. ObamaCare will make the GOP look like fools.


There you go.  It will become the standard and they have gone down adamantly against it.  See also gay marriage, global climate change and other things I don't feel like listing because I want to go get coffee.
 
2013-09-18 12:23:12 PM  

Aristocles: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

Haha! The Farklibs are eating their own again! Real funny stuff... angels and whatnot!


Im starting to miss skinnyhead..

At least he was amusing,
 
2013-09-18 12:24:41 PM  

Mike_LowELL: I am in full support of this bill.  I can't wait to see what they propose in the bill.


I've missed you.

+1
 
2013-09-18 12:24:52 PM  

born_yesterday: theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

Says the person whose boobies was "The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country. "

At least it was an *idea*, and not this inarticulate shiat-slinging that you guys have been doing. I've seen a lot of posts in here where people have claimed they'd be thrilled if the Republicans put forward a bill that's exactly like Obamacare, and that's pretty cool. Unfortunately, I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits, listening to you argue why you would be justified hating conservatives, no matter what they did.

Your 'idea' was to predict future behavior by 'all the liberals' and then criticize them for that as-yet-to-happen behavior? I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.

*raises hand* Actually, one guy did say what he would do if the Republicans proposed single-payer universal coverage, but he said he would support them. Does that count for partial credit?


I would shiat a solid gold brick if the Republicans in Congress proposed Medicare for All, and I guarantee you I would be calling all of my federal representatives repeatedly to let them know I supported that plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:25:00 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Everyone's insurance continues to go up year over year,


For the previous 2 years, the increase has drastically slowed. From 01 to 10, it was climbing over 8% per year, last 2 years only 5%.
 
2013-09-18 12:25:54 PM  

Wooly Bully: Lucky LaRue: I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits

oh holy sh*t you can't be for real


He's got to be trolling.  Reelin' the bites tho.
 
2013-09-18 12:26:40 PM  
The problem for conservatives is that, for political reasons, they've made it impossible to come up with a health plan. Obamcare is, pretty much, the conservative way to ensure universal health insurance coverage. All the other options either (i) don't cover everyone or (ii) are more liberal. So they are screwed.
 
2013-09-18 12:26:51 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?

The important thing is that both sides are bad.

I think this may be the most cogent thing a liberal has said in this thread.  Yes, both sides *are* bad, which is the unfortunate outcome whenever both sides are extremist only interested in demonizing the other.


...said the guy complaining about the behavior of imaginary liberals in his head.
 
2013-09-18 12:27:29 PM  
1. Don't get sick.
2. If you do, pull yourself up to health with your own bootstraps.
3. Tax cuts.

/Step 3 is ALWAYS tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 12:28:05 PM  
PS: I look forward to paying less that $100 per month for health care.
 
2013-09-18 12:28:35 PM  

AirForceVet: [citation needed]


Citation is that I said it. I believe it to be so. You do not have to agree, but you should not have to have "opinion" explained to you.

theknuckler_33: Plenty to discuss.


Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, it's all just speculative partisan poo slinging. (Personally, I'm dubious that they have somehow formulated a winning alternative just now that somehow evaded them for the last 6 years).

vpb: Of course, those bad things don't exist, but that's how spin works.


Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system? I just want to know so I can identify if I am dealing with a rational actor here.

AirForceVet: Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.


[Cite needed] Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, you are just saying "I hate republicans, and whatever republicans are offering, I'm again' it!"
 
2013-09-18 12:29:15 PM  
TAZED
ENOUGH
ALREADY
 
2013-09-18 12:29:25 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Wooly Bully: Lucky LaRue: I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits

oh holy sh*t you can't be for real

He's got to be trolling.  Reelin' the bites tho.


I like the profile pic! Don't think I've ever seen a troll put one of those up before.
 
2013-09-18 12:29:32 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


It's frankly insulting to people with Down Syndrome, which at least in my experience are better people than any Republican I've ever met.
 
2013-09-18 12:29:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative. I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.


I forgot.  Finding anyone owning up to being conservative on Fark is about as rare as a conservative proposing legislation that isn't related to your religion, their religion, or your reproductive system.
 
2013-09-18 12:31:09 PM  
BojanglesPaladin:
Shouldn't you be saying no to linkbait?
 
2013-09-18 12:31:26 PM  
MadHatter500:

You are a complete ass.  Good thing you can be an ITG.  At a bar you'd be beaten bloody with this attitude.

See, I don't get ITG at all....I totally get foppish dandy

who would scream and tremble and the mere thought of fisticuffs.  While sniffing snuff from a tiny laquer box with his elegant, yet freakishly female fingers.
 
2013-09-18 12:31:28 PM  

DamnYankees: The problem for conservatives is that, for political reasons, they've made it impossible to come up with a health plan. Obamcare is, pretty much, the conservative way to ensure universal health insurance coverage. All the other options either (i) don't cover everyone or (ii) are more liberal. So they are screwed.


Yup.  It was Nixon's before it was Romney's.  What's now called Obamacare is based on a series of policies that has always been the conservative alternative to healthcare reform.
 
2013-09-18 12:32:05 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


Victim of circumstances my ass. He knew what he was getting into when he followed Frodo into Mordor.
 
2013-09-18 12:32:19 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

fark tossed the damn url.....
 
2013-09-18 12:32:24 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.


Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.


so which is it?
 
2013-09-18 12:32:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue: theknuckler_33: I have yet to see one post from anyone suggesting that if Republicans put forward a bill that was exactly like Obamacare that they would hate it.

Then you aren't very good at reading comprehension.


I'm willing to admit I might have missed a post like that, but I doubt I read it and didn't realize it. Perhaps you could point one of them out for me. It's easy, just quote it like you did me.
 
2013-09-18 12:33:03 PM  

coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative. I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

I forgot.  Finding anyone owning up to being conservative on Fark is about as rare as a conservative proposing legislation that isn't related to your religion, their religion, or your reproductive system.


You make me think of the teahadist that call Mitch McConnell a RINO.  It's like anyone that disagrees with your dogma must be your opposite.  It's sad that you and the 'baggers are so blinded by hatred that you can't envision an point of view that looks on both of your political views with disdain and contempt.
 
2013-09-18 12:33:12 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Wooly Bully: Lucky LaRue: I'm down here in the mud with you nit-wits

oh holy sh*t you can't be for real

He's got to be trolling.  Reelin' the bites tho.


To be fair, even his computer is probably ready to punch him off his pompous holier than thou high horse.
 
2013-09-18 12:33:23 PM  

Witty_Retort: For the previous 2 years, the increase has drastically slowed. From 01 to 10, it was climbing over 8% per year, last 2 years only 5%.


Those numbers do not at all seem to jive with what I have seen, including my own experience which is double digit increases 5 years running and an 11% increase fro 2014. (Of course you ARE seeing more companies drop to worse plans to stave off these increases).

But I'm happy to see where you got those numbers from.
 
2013-09-18 12:33:31 PM  

DarnoKonrad: DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack

It's frankly insulting to people with Down Syndrome, which at least in my experience are better people than any Republican I've ever met.


Down syndrome-capable people are also wildly more intelligent than basically every Republican in Congress today.
 
2013-09-18 12:33:48 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Victim of circumstances my ass. He knew what he was getting into when he followed Frodo into Mordor.


And for not previewing my post, and seeing that the Samwise Gamgee po-ta-to animated gif was too big and would be thrown away, it looks like it is I who is potatoed.
 
2013-09-18 12:34:02 PM  

Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?


Both, and also neither. It's whatever makes you pay attention to him.
 
2013-09-18 12:34:05 PM  
Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?
 
2013-09-18 12:34:15 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack

Victim of circumstances my ass. He knew what he was getting into when he followed Frodo into Mordor.


Lol
 
2013-09-18 12:34:33 PM  

Witty_Retort: Shouldn't you be saying no to linkbait?


I don't have an issue with Slate like I do with ThinkProgress, NewsBusters, American Thinker, etc.
 
2013-09-18 12:35:18 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: Plenty to discuss.

Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, it's all just speculative partisan poo slinging. (Personally, I'm dubious that they have somehow formulated a winning alternative just now that somehow evaded them for the last 6 years).


No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system. I think that's a subject worthy of discussion in an online forum about politics... even if it is just speculative.
 
2013-09-18 12:36:01 PM  

Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?


I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.
 
2013-09-18 12:36:06 PM  

Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?


i159.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:36:27 PM  
i601.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:37:01 PM  

meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Just as soon as Republicans stop being evil and Democrats stop being spineless nematodes.
 
2013-09-18 12:38:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.


For once, I can't argue with you (I'm only talking about that last sentence).
 
2013-09-18 12:38:45 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

[i159.photobucket.com image 500x375]


Knuckle-dragging humor is rarely an effective means to defend your opinion, though it's sure to get a few laughs in your echo-chamber.
 
2013-09-18 12:38:47 PM  

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


i.istockimg.com
 
2013-09-18 12:39:16 PM  
www.cognitivedissident.org
Scalise's plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:17 PM  

Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior


I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:22 PM  
Not one person has used the word "unicorn" in their discussions, like the headline did. I think we need to refer to this more.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.


Maybe the great lesson in all of this is that there is no difference between dems and pubs. Perhaps they are all on the same side - theirs - and you and I don't enter into the equation inasmuch as decision making is concerned.

You and I are just cash cows to those in power.
 
2013-09-18 12:40:45 PM  

meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?



Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry
 
2013-09-18 12:40:46 PM  
imgick.nola.com

Scalise said that by tying the plan's tax breaks to the cost of insurance the RSC is encouraging "people to shop around," and choose their coverage more carefully because they get "more money in their pockets" by doing so.

My Momma told me...
You'd better shop around!
 
2013-09-18 12:41:11 PM  
I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 12:41:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue:
I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.



i865.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:42:01 PM  

theknuckler_33: No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system


Granted. Now review the contents of this thread and see how much of it is a rational discussion of the ways in which such a seemingly contradictory set of objectives could be reconciled, and how much is "herpderp Republicans are the sux0r!"

And even if we were having a discussion of viable, workable alternatives to ACA, it's ultimately blindly speculative and moot because we have no real sense of what is being proposed. So sure, we COULD have a grand time playing the guessing game, but it's not really tied to any actual proposal from the Republicans, and few here are doing that anyway.
 
2013-09-18 12:42:07 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.


If you are going to be offensive, at least put some ideas behind it.  "Hurr!  I made a joke at your expense!" is not really what you want to be going for, is it?
 
2013-09-18 12:42:45 PM  
Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."
 
2013-09-18 12:43:11 PM  
Five years too late you dummies.

/willing to take a look
 
2013-09-18 12:43:36 PM  

phenn: Voiceofreason01: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.

Maybe the great lesson in all of this is that there is no difference between dems and pubs. Perhaps they are all on the same side - theirs - and you and I don't enter into the equation inasmuch as decision making is concerned.

You and I are just cash cows to those in power.


My issue with this line of thinking is that the ACA is having a real effect on peoples lives--most immediately, those with pre-existing conditions, and would have had more of one had single-payer been left in.  The Republicans have coontil today, two weeks before implementation) proposed nothing.

The idea that there is no difference between the two parties does not hold up on the issue of health care.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:05 PM  
I see that the plan calls for patients to put the lime in the coconut and drink them both up.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:33 PM  

Maud Dib: Lucky LaRue:
I'm not "above it all", certainly.  I just use rationality and logic to guide my political views, which is something that the far-left and far-right are incapable of.  The teahadist and the herbal tea baggers only care about their games of one-upmanship, and that's fine because it keeps you entertained, but what you are doing isn't politics and it doesn't help the country.

[i865.photobucket.com image 360x450]


I am a labor Democrat, and I have voted for Democrat presidential nominees for the last 22 years, but don't let the facts stop you.
 
2013-09-18 12:44:59 PM  

Chummer45: Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."


Tax cuts.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican


What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Flab: Lucky LaRue: I'm not "above it all", certainly.

Lucky LaRue: But, really, it's not hard to feel superior to two tribes of warring morons.

so which is it?

I know it's hard for someone who only sees black-and-white to understand, but there is an entire world of politics besides "yer either fer us or agin us!"  So, yes, I think my political views are far, far superior to whatever your dogmatic indoctrination has taught you.  But, there are many, many thinkers who are far better at rationalizing and arguing their beliefs than I will ever be.


My dogmatic indoctrination?  what would that be?

For what it's worth, I get what you're trying to say about Politics-as-a-football-game, where anything one team does is good and everything the other team does is bad, being bad for the country in general.

But you're bad at getting the point across because you make assumptions about the people you interact with in this thread and succomb to the same "Us vs. Them" logic, and put everyone who finds a fault with your reasoning in the "Them" category.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:39 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.


What, do you think your own political views are inferior or something? That's happened to be a few times. I changed my mind though, instead of calling other people smug for not being stupid on purpose.
 
2013-09-18 12:45:48 PM  
The bill from the Republican Study Committee would fully repeal the 2010 law and replace it with an expansion of health savings accounts, medical liability reform and the elimination of restrictions on purchasing insurance across state lines.

Scalise: "Warmed up shiatloaf! Get yer warmed up shiatloaf here!"
 
2013-09-18 12:46:24 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


Agreed.
 
2013-09-18 12:46:27 PM  

physt: Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.

[i.istockimg.com image 380x380]



So is the draft, jury duty, taxes, death, and crippling disease.  But it's all stuff that's a fact of life and that we as a society have to deal with.

Most people shouting "individual freedom!" nowadays just think that word means being allowed to live in society without contributing to it in any way, shape or form.  Those people tend to be very eager to take advantage of government benefits when they suddenly need them.

The tea partiers need to grow up intellectually, and move beyond their childish "f everyone else, I have mine" mentality.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:06 PM  

LincolnLogolas: Chummer45: Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."

Tax cuts.



Seriously - I think that the GOP's magic wand consists of (1) tax cuts (2) deregulation (3) cutting spending (except on things they like, i.e., the military).
 
2013-09-18 12:48:14 PM  
Yeah, it's going to be free market healthcare. Because, as anyone who has dealt with them can tell you, insurance companies are outstanding models of efficiency and service.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:24 PM  

error 303: Obamacare is the conservative/Republican alternative to a liberal/Democrat healthcare solution. Altneratives include the status quo, which all seem to agree has failed, "Medicare for all", single payer, or public option. The only real conservative alternative healthcare solution I see is continue with the health care policies we've had in this country that got us to this point in the first place, with some handy wavey notion of "tort reform" and lip service to "personal responsibility".

It's really frustrating that Republican's haven't claimed this as a victory. They won the health care debate and now are activly trying to bring us to a system that has been showed to fail.


Apparently Republicans are admitting that their beloved AEI was full of shiat in the 1990s.
 
2013-09-18 12:48:35 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm not a fan of the "potato" pics that are posted to show how stupid someone is. The guy in the photo is a human being. He had no control over his circumstances.


/My $.02
//end threadjack


I getcha. Can we replace those pictures with appropriately Photoshopped pictures of McConnell wearing a shell, or Boehner with his eyes way closer together? I would like those better.
 
2013-09-18 12:49:01 PM  

Poopspasm: I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.


static.guim.co.uk

Part 3. is an integral part of the 5 year tax cut plan.
 
2013-09-18 12:50:25 PM  
I'm starting to wish Obama had proposed Hillarycare.  Then we'd have gotten exactly what we wanted out of the Republicans.
 
2013-09-18 12:51:05 PM  

2wolves: Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican

What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.


This is a stupid, nilhist argument.  "You can't be making sense because your using a word in a way that I disagree with!"
 
2013-09-18 12:51:33 PM  

odinsposse: Yeah, it's going to be free market healthcare. Because, as anyone who has dealt with them can tell you, insurance companies are outstanding models of efficiency and service.


And we can certainly trust insurance companies to act with the best interests of their customers in mind, rather than acting to increase profits.  A government agency, on the other hand.....
 
2013-09-18 12:53:40 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry


And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?
 
2013-09-18 12:53:56 PM  

Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Lucky LaRue: So, you are ready to concede that liberals will hate anything put forward by a Republican

What liberals?  There is NO viable liberal movement in the U.S..    You have "Liberalism" programmed into nearly all your comments and no where does it actually work as a valid usage.

This is a stupid, nilhist argument.  "You can't be making sense because your using a word in a way that I disagree with!"


That's not the argument being made.  The argument is, in a nutshell, that "liberal" doesn't simply mean something you don't like.  It's valid (though right now with the idiocy of the debate useless) to point out that words actually have meanings and can't be reformed to fit what you want them to mean.
 
2013-09-18 12:54:48 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: No I don't, but don't act like there's nothing to discuss. Objectives that seem to want to keep the ability for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage while abandoning the individual mandate seem to be goals that are counter-productive to each other in an otherwise free-market health care system

Granted. Now review the contents of this thread and see how much of it is a rational discussion of the ways in which such a seemingly contradictory set of objectives could be reconciled, and how much is "herpderp Republicans are the sux0r!"

And even if we were having a discussion of viable, workable alternatives to ACA, it's ultimately blindly speculative and moot because we have no real sense of what is being proposed. So sure, we COULD have a grand time playing the guessing game, but it's not really tied to any actual proposal from the Republicans, and few here are doing that anyway.


None of which makes your comment that there is 'nothing to discuss' any more valid.

And, considering the GOP has spent 3 years in a juvenile display of footstomping by holding repeated and futile repeal/defund votes without any kind of serious proposal of their own, until now (even though this one is still being kept under wraps for some reason), saying that the GOP sucks on this issue is pretty much a bullseye.
 
2013-09-18 12:54:53 PM  
i194.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-18 12:55:19 PM  

DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative.  I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

[i.imgur.com image 373x330]


i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-18 12:56:03 PM  

meat0918: DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry

And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?



Exactly.
 
2013-09-18 12:56:25 PM  
meat0918:
I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?

In Indiana we've got a Governor and a U.S. Senator that are putting forth the "...but you can always go to the emergency room" claim with a straight face.  They effectively represent the insurance lobby, not their constituencies.  It's one of the stupidest arguments one can make in the entire debate.
 
2013-09-18 12:56:35 PM  
Just because I can't post this enough:

Mitt Romney asking for Obama to pass pretty much exactly what "Obamacare" turned out to be, before Obama made it the plan then Romney and Republicans were massively against it:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20090730/column30_s t. art.htm
 
2013-09-18 12:56:39 PM  

d23: Poopspasm: I'm guessing the plan will be requiring everyone to own guns so that they can kill themselves when they get sick.

Oh, and tax cuts.

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

Part 3. is an integral part of the 5 year tax cut plan.


It took way too long for someone to post that.
 
2013-09-18 12:56:56 PM  
$20k deduction ?

That will swell the EITC rolls by how many million households?
 
2013-09-18 12:57:02 PM  

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


In a country of 300 million plus, you should chillax on the whole individual freedom thing. Feel free to jump on that raft with the religious family.
 
2013-09-18 12:57:42 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: TuteTibiImperes: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

So, they want to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage without inflated rates, but they want to do away with the individual mandate?

I love that idea.  If implemented well it has the potential to bankrupt the health insurance companies within several years.   Then we can install a universal single payer system like we should have to begin with.

In that case, I'll start screaming about how good it is for the country!

Hooray retarded Republican last-minute half-assed effort!!


That would be hilarious, but I would immediately start verifying known constants and laws of physics.
 
2013-09-18 12:57:47 PM  

Lucky LaRue: DarnoKonrad: Lucky LaRue: my political views are far, far superior

I nominate you mayor of the Politics Tab.  Should you be elected, you'll receive a top hat, monocle, and monogrammed butt plug.

If you are going to be offensive, at least put some ideas behind it.  "Hurr!  I made a joke at your expense!" is not really what you want to be going for, is it?


So you're done with making your points and you're now settled into "Trying to make fun of you for making fun of me" banter... fascinating. So, can you recap what your points in the thread were?
 
2013-09-18 12:57:48 PM  
So question: if we give every individual a $7,000 deduction for health insurance (or $20,000 deduction per household). What will the 47% 43% of households that don't have a federal income tax liability increase to?
 
2013-09-18 12:58:03 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: "The RSC press release announcing the bill's introduction included no hints of what the legislation might contain."

Until then, there is nothing to discuss. Just threads full of 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!


Well except even you now are admitting that the Republicans saying they had a plan all these years was a big lie.
 
2013-09-18 12:58:35 PM  

theknuckler_33: None of which makes your comment that there is 'nothing to discuss' any more valid.


OK. Tell you what. You just disregard my comment, and go on and have all the discussion you like. You don't actually need me to approve that, but I am approving it anyway. Discuss all you want.

theknuckler_33: And, considering the GOP has spent 3 years in a juvenile display of footstomping by holding repeated and futile repeal/defund votes without any kind of serious proposal of their own, until now (even though this one is still being kept under wraps for some reason), saying that the GOP sucks on this issue is pretty much a bullseye.


....and Look. As predicted, there is your " 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!' comment exactly as predicted. Right on queue.

Don't let me stop you from proving me right.
 
2013-09-18 12:59:58 PM  

born_yesterday: phenn: Voiceofreason01: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

Not to mention that Mitt Romney as a Republican Governor implemented as nearly identical plan in Massachusetts then campaigned against it a few years later when running for President.

Maybe the great lesson in all of this is that there is no difference between dems and pubs. Perhaps they are all on the same side - theirs - and you and I don't enter into the equation inasmuch as decision making is concerned.

You and I are just cash cows to those in power.

My issue with this line of thinking is that the ACA is having a real effect on peoples lives--most immediately, those with pre-existing conditions, and would have had more of one had single-payer been left in.  The Republicans have coontil today, two weeks before implementation) proposed nothing.

The idea that there is no difference between the two parties does not hold up on the issue of health care.


Well, the point was made earlier that pubs have proposed the same model. My grief with ACA is that is smells like a premium grab and doesn't (IMO) address the core of the health care delivery problem. The core of the problem being cost of care.

As far as the republican efforts to defund ACA, I think we can all agree it's nothing more than theatrics intended to rouse the base. You are correct that they've proposed little of any value. My take is that's for a reason.They wanted ACA as badly as the dems did because it benefits their corporate buddies.

As always, I'm happy to be wrong. Just my $.02.
 
2013-09-18 01:00:09 PM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.
 
2013-09-18 01:01:16 PM  

meat0918: DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry

And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?


I winced a little reading that. I remember when I was young, I fell off my bike on a gravel path and a rock got caught in my knee. When the rock was removed, some of the parts inside the wound were white. I was confused at the time as to why there was white showing between blood gushes but it made sense over time. And that's creepy, that I most likely ripped my skin open to bone and it healed, with some Neosporin and a bandage, into a scar.
 
2013-09-18 01:01:46 PM  

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


I've been reading the thread a while and have yet to see you articulate what a good health care plan might be, just a lot of both sides are bad, and thank heaven I'm not one of them.

Care to put up or shut up?

Either would do, really.

BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?


This?  Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.
 
2013-09-18 01:02:31 PM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


They'll offer Hillary Clinton's plan.
 
2013-09-18 01:02:33 PM  

InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.


I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?
 
2013-09-18 01:03:52 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: The bill from the Republican Study Committee would fully repeal the 2010 law and replace it with an expansion of health savings accounts, medical liability reform and the elimination of restrictions on purchasing insurance across state lines.

Scalise: "Warmed up shiatloaf! Get yer warmed up shiatloaf here!"


"
Roe said Scalise came to him a few months ago with a set of marching orders. "He said you can't have any mandates in this bill. You can't raise taxes. You've got to reform the tax code, but there can't be any subsidies involved," Roe recalled. "That's pretty limited in what we can do. I think within those parameters, we came up with a pretty good bill." "

Nice.
 
2013-09-18 01:05:30 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

I've been reading the thread a while and have yet to see you articulate what a good health care plan might be, just a lot of both sides are bad, and thank heaven I'm not one of them.

Care to put up or shut up?

Either would do, really.

BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?

This?  Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.


You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.
 
2013-09-18 01:05:35 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: ....and Look. As predicted, there is your " 'OMG I hate repubs'!!elevenses!!1!!' comment exactly as predicted. Right on queue.

Don't let me stop you from proving me right.


I'll mark you down as considering 40-some votes to repeal/defund Obamacare as time well spent. *check*

Calling people juvenile for being Republican (or Democrat for that matter) is pretty stupid.
Calling people juvenile for being juvenile is accurate.
 
2013-09-18 01:05:45 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Witty_Retort: For the previous 2 years, the increase has drastically slowed. From 01 to 10, it was climbing over 8% per year, last 2 years only 5%.

Those numbers do not at all seem to jive with what I have seen, including my own experience which is double digit increases 5 years running and an 11% increase fro 2014. (Of course you ARE seeing more companies drop to worse plans to stave off these increases).

But I'm happy to see where you got those numbers from.


http://kff.org/report-section/2013-summary-of-findings/
Health Insurance Company Requests For Double Digit Premium Increases Plummeting

BojanglesPaladin: Witty_Retort: Shouldn't you be saying no to linkbait?

I don't have an issue with Slate like I do with ThinkProgress, NewsBusters, American Thinker, etc.


Just yanking your chain. Links from The Blaze are still good? Breitbart? Alex Jones?
FOX News?

Buried deep in the derp is:
"a forecast of sharply dropping premiums for individual health insurance in New York"

"meaning that by adding the federal requirement that all humans* not covered by a government program purchase insurance, the risk pool will expand and rates will drop."

But then they herped off to the debunked 88% rate hike in Ohio
 
2013-09-18 01:05:52 PM  

Grungehamster: So question: if we give every individual a $7,000 deduction for health insurance (or $20,000 deduction per household). What will the 47% 43% of households that don't have a federal income tax liability increase to?


I asked the same question basically.

The cognitive dissonance train has left the station apparently.
 
2013-09-18 01:06:28 PM  

Chummer45: Seriously - I think that the GOP's magic wand consists of (1) tax cuts (2) deregulation (3) cutting spending (except on things they like, i.e., the military).


Well they never actually cut spending, they always increase it, it just looks like they are cutting it because the budgets of things that help people get cut, and then that and more is shuffled off to their cronies (as you say, often via the military) - as most people don't see any benefit from the new spending they generally assume government spending must have gone down.
 
2013-09-18 01:07:10 PM  
Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!
 
2013-09-18 01:07:46 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: DROxINxTHExWIND: meat0918: Can we just get rid of health insurance altogether and just get a national healthcare system going?


Dear meat0918,

No. We like collecting premiums from MILLIONS of Americans who don't go to the doctor anywhere near as much as they should. Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month and they only go to the doctor a few times per year. But, we love to sell the notion that everybody in America is swimming with illness and that it will require an infinite amount of money to heal them all. biatch, don't kill our vibe.

Sincerely,

The Insurance Industry

And then when I did farking go, the ER didn't even charge my insurance, meaning I got the full $900 bill.

1 farking stitch in my finger from cutting it very deep but not very wide on a can (you could see tendon or at least something stringy looking) and they charge you $900 ($600 from the ER, ~$140 for the stitch, then ~$160 for the doctor), and I've been paying premiums for years, YEARS, without actually using the damn insurance, but my company requires me to pay the premiums for the group plan.

Once insurance processes it, it'll be about $300-$400.  $75 insurance copay, plus about $100 to meet my deductible, plus 20% of the remaining balance on the bill.

I can see paying the $160 for the doc, that's my smallest portion of the complaint.  The single stitch though?!?!! WTF?


Exactly.


To make matters more infuriating, we found out our employer choose to stay with a grandfathered insurance plan.

So we get most of it, but preventative care still isn't covered, among other things

They were really, REALLY vague about whether or not we still have to participate in the group plan when I asked for clarification regarding the notice we got from them about the state exchanges.
 
2013-09-18 01:08:41 PM  

Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!


I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?
 
2013-09-18 01:08:47 PM  

Deucednuisance: BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?

This? Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.


In every Israel thread there's the mosquito dude with his crazy David Duke rantings, and in every ACA thread there's this "independent" moaning for the thousandth time about what a disaster is befalling us all.

But there was some funny sh*t in this thread, and I guess that's why some of us put up with all the other crap.
 
2013-09-18 01:09:15 PM  
The main problem here is how to get as much money as possible into the hands of the insurance companies. Until this is addressed, nothing will change.
 
2013-09-18 01:09:39 PM  

Aristocles: FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.

No one cares who came up with the idea, the problem is that it's an affront to individual freedom.


^^^ This is why conservatives should not be invited to the grown-ups table. They don't even have the barest scrap of wit to understand why they sound so foolish.
 
2013-09-18 01:10:26 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.


Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.
 
2013-09-18 01:10:30 PM  

Chummer45: So is the draft, jury duty, taxes, death, and crippling disease. But it's all stuff that's a fact of life and that we as a society have to deal with.


I'll give you jury duty. We have a volunteer military now, and death and disease are, indeed facts of life, but they're not affronts to liberty.
 
2013-09-18 01:10:34 PM  

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.

I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?


Republicans have been lying through their teeth regarding their intents in Congress. "Laser-like focus on jobs", etc. Proof is there, they're trying a 42nd time to repeal a plan they created without putting a serious contender for a replacement, or an argument as to why it's so bad it needs repealing with the aforementioned laser-like effort (or lazer, if you prefer). If they came out and said they have a plan for the people to consider, and it was a serious, thought-out plan to help all Americans, it would be very easy to look at the plan without judgment for the offeree and at the very least see what their idea is. Nope, needs repealing, government shutdown looming but still pushing "priorities" around, no serious budget balancing discussions to be had.
 
2013-09-18 01:11:05 PM  
AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE! - Brought to you by the party of magical budgets with tax cuts and increased Defense spending.
 
2013-09-18 01:12:49 PM  

Chummer45: Seriously, what could the GOP possibly propose that would even come close to addressing the rising cost of health care, or the pre existing condition issue?  It seems to me their primary opposition to Obamacare has always been (1) it was proposed by a democrat, and (2) it was enacted by a democrat.

I mean, what are they going to propose?  "Free market" health care?  Ok... if they're serious about that notion, then they'd have to do away with medicaid and medicare and privatize the entire system.  That'll go over well.  And it will totally reign in costs and improve health care in the US.

It's funny to watch the GOP struggle when asked what their own ideas are.  I remember Romney's response was "oh, well, we'll make sure pre existing conditions are covered, and kids can stay on their parents' plans, and (basically all the popular elements of the ACA), but we're going to do away with the individual mandate.

Yes, that's the GOP - the party of "personal responsibility."


My guess is something like the following:
- Eliminate corporate and personal income taxes
- Everybody now has a job
- Employer-sponsored insurance already bans pre-existing-condition discrimination

More seriously, it'll probably just be the usual claptrap about interstate insurance sales, tort reform and whatnot, in an attempt to bring the magic of the free market to an industry that exhibits every market failure in the book (and a few specific to it).
 
2013-09-18 01:13:37 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.

That's pretty typical of the ODS crowd.  Didn't like a third of LA Republicans recently blame the poor response to Hurricane Katrina on Obama?

These people are just insane.  They are literally separated from sanity.


They've still never forgiven Obama for betraying the Confederacy during the War of Northern Aggression.
 
2013-09-18 01:13:38 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot.  You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

I've been reading the thread a while and have yet to see you articulate what a good health care plan might be, just a lot of both sides are bad, and thank heaven I'm not one of them.

Care to put up or shut up?

Either would do, really.

BojanglesPaladin: Really? You genuinely believe there are NO bad parts of ACA? You honestly think that ACA is flawless, and will fix all that was broken with the healthcare system?

This?  Again?

Really?

Spare us, please.


Give 'em a break.  It's much easier to argue with what the imaginary liberal said than what people in this thread are saying.

Thus, "Obamacare isn't perfect, but it's better than doing nothing" becomes either

a) "Obamacare sucks ass, but it pisses off Republicans so I'm for it," or
b) "Obamacare is flawless and perfect in every way."

Aren't those much easier to argue against?
 
2013-09-18 01:14:35 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?


The poor ones? I don't think too many tears would be shed by the GOP. When you promote policies with that very purpose at the core, you can't claim ignorance later.
 
2013-09-18 01:15:57 PM  

Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.


I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.
 
2013-09-18 01:16:01 PM  

COMALite J: Lionel Mandrake: Mentat: The state-level exchanges aren't advertising the exchanges as ObamaCare.  They have different names for them that intentionally separate from ObamaCare.  When they explain to customers what plans are available, most people are pretty happy.  In Kentucky, there was one instance of a customer remarking, "This is better than ObamaCare!"  It's one of the weirdest disconnects I've ever seen.

That's pretty typical of the ODS crowd.  Didn't like a third of LA Republicans recently blame the poor response to Hurricane Katrina on Obama?

These people are just insane.  They are literally separated from sanity.

They've still never forgiven Obama for betraying the Confederacy during the War of Northern Aggression.


Or plotting to surrender West Point to the hated British
 
2013-09-18 01:16:45 PM  

Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.


Yeah, you know how liberals think!

/No, you don't, you are hallucinating.
 
2013-09-18 01:17:23 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.


Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough.  Seriously.  You guys suck.
 
2013-09-18 01:18:17 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.

I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.


Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.

Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
 
2013-09-18 01:20:09 PM  

Triple Oak: Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.

I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?

Republicans have been lying through their teeth regarding their intents in Congress. "Laser-like focus on jobs", etc. Proof is there, they're trying a 42nd time to repeal a plan they created without putting a serious contender for a replacement, or an argument as to why it's so bad it needs repealing with the aforementioned laser-like effort (or lazer, if you prefer). If they came out and said they have a plan for the people to consider, and it was a serious, thought-out plan to help all Americans, it would be very easy to look at the plan without judgment for the offeree and at the very least see what their idea is. Nope, needs repealing, government shutdown looming but still pushing "priorities" around, no serious budget balancing discussions to be had.


I'll take your argument about everything bad Republicans have done prima facie.  Just don't tell me how open minded you are and how willing you are to listen to their points of view while making that argument, ok?
 
2013-09-18 01:23:43 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.

I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.


I thought you told me you had read this thread, and here I find you setting up more straw men.  I am pretty sure I applauded the democrats who said they would be thrilled if the GOP put forward ObamaCare as their own.  It's not them I have a problem with, is it?  It's the extremist who give example after example of why they should feel justified being against any GOP proposal regardless of its content.
 
2013-09-18 01:24:01 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah, you know how liberals think!

/No, you don't, you are hallucinating.


Define "liberal."
And no, "Someone who disagrees with me" doesn't count.
 
2013-09-18 01:24:55 PM  

d23: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.

I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.

Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.

Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.


No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".
 
2013-09-18 01:24:55 PM  

d23: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.

I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.

Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.

Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.


You think every idea the GOP has is total crap and you think they call you a leftist for merely not marching in lockstep?

Errrm. Does believing both of those at the same time ever make your brain itch?
 
2013-09-18 01:25:03 PM  
My strong suspicion is that Rep. Scalise is not in fact some kind of public policy prodigy

unfortunately he is my representative and i can attest to the above. he is a lock step republican who now courts the tea party as well. he's all about spouting the current line -- period. why he got put forward on this is a mystery.
 
2013-09-18 01:25:45 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I'll take your argument about everything bad Republicans have done prima facie. Just don't tell me how open minded you are and how willing you are to listen to their points of view while making that argument, ok?


People in the U.S. have been doing NOTHING BUT listening the GOP point of view since Obama was elected.  I don't think I'm only speaking for myself when I say I've listened to their opinions out the ying yang.  I don't agree with their opinions, especially since their point of view is locked up in doing absolutely nothing but protecting their buddies right now.  The positions on GOP are lacking in facts and just plain humanity at this point in history.  Listening to the GOP point of view, despite their constant whine to contrary, doesn't automatically mean they win the day.
 
2013-09-18 01:26:38 PM  

Lucky LaRue: d23: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.

I feel so dirty for doing this, but:

Have you somehow missed the fact that many of your so-called left extremists have countered that point in this very thread and said (for instance) they would support single-payer heartily if put forth by the GOP?

I count myself among them.  I'm a fanboi, but I can applaud when the other side gets something right.

You're trenchant observation reeks of confirmation bias.

Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.

Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.

No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".


The "...right now" was implied.  Sorry that you're unable to see that.
 
2013-09-18 01:27:26 PM  

Close2TheEdge: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

The poor ones? I don't think too many tears would be shed by the GOP. When you promote policies with that very purpose at the core, you can't claim ignorance later.


I recall the GOP crowd cheered at a primary debate when "LET HIM DIE" was shouted during a debate surrounding a hypothetical coma patient with no insurance.
 
2013-09-18 01:28:05 PM  

Ned Stark: You think every idea the GOP has is total crap and you think they call you a leftist for merely not marching in lockstep?

Errrm. Does believing both of those at the same time ever make your brain itch?


I think their ideas are bad right now.  That doesn't imply I think every "leftist" idea is good either.  It looks like you're the one with the two sided thinking, not me.
 
2013-09-18 01:28:44 PM  

FlashHarry: point of order: obamacare - and specifically, the individual mandate - IS a conservative idea, having originated at the heritage foundation in the 1990s.


That is double-bad speak.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.
 
2013-09-18 01:32:19 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah, you know how liberals think!

/No, you don't, you are hallucinating.

Define "liberal."
And no, "Someone who disagrees with me" doesn't count.


The ideological core of the Democratic party. Generally desire a free market with limited government intervention, preserving the new deal, aggressive forigen policy, and making exclusionary social institutions more inclusive(e.g. gay marriage)
 
2013-09-18 01:32:36 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Close2TheEdge: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

The poor ones? I don't think too many tears would be shed by the GOP. When you promote policies with that very purpose at the core, you can't claim ignorance later.


It's very hard to compromise with people when they think you want to kill their grandma.  I don't understand how the extreme left can't see that, or is it's sole purpose just a foil to the extreme right?  If so, that's cool, just don't expect people to respect your opinions.

I recall the GOP crowd cheered at a primary debate when "LET HIM DIE" was shouted during a debate surrounding a hypothetical coma patient with no insurance.

Well, yeah.  Those would be the bat-shiat insane tea baggers I've been comparing the extreme left to.  I seem to recall members of the GOP (both on stage and in the audience) cringing at the applause and cheering.
 
2013-09-18 01:32:40 PM  
 
2013-09-18 01:34:49 PM  
"We're going to continue to do everything we can to repeal the president's failed health care law," Boehner said.

I love how something the GOP has desperately tried (partially successfully) to delay can, at the same time, be declared a "failed" law.
 
2013-09-18 01:35:29 PM  
Oops, forgot the link.
 
2013-09-18 01:36:21 PM  

d23: Ned Stark: You think every idea the GOP has is total crap and you think they call you a leftist for merely not marching in lockstep?

Errrm. Does believing both of those at the same time ever make your brain itch?

I think their ideas are bad right now.  That doesn't imply I think every "leftist" idea is good either.  It looks like you're the one with the two sided thinking, not me.


I didn't claim they were right that you were a leftist(though you should be, we have great parties) I was questioning your reasoning about their reasoning. Having literally nothing in common is not at all similar to not marching in lockstep.
 
2013-09-18 01:38:14 PM  

coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.


Haha plus eleventy
 
2013-09-18 01:38:43 PM  

Leader O'Cola: Grungehamster: So question: if we give every individual a $7,000 deduction for health insurance (or $20,000 deduction per household). What will the 47% 43% of households that don't have a federal income tax liability increase to?

I asked the same question basically.

The cognitive dissonance train has left the station apparently.


More than 50% of households with zero federal income tax liability make less than $20K a year and are primarily able to do this due to the earned income tax credit (which is a little over $3,000 for one kid and tops out at less than $6,000 if you have three or more kids). Adding another $20,000 credit on top of that would be astounding: I'm curious if anyone will do the math on that. I'd say think of the cost, but I've been told if you suggest that a tax cut costs money you betray yourself as believing the government owns projected revenues: any future revenues are inherently a tax increase by virtue of it suggesting people will be expected to pay taxes next year too.

And that's not even including government subsides of high risk pools the proposal also apparently suggests.
 
2013-09-18 01:39:32 PM  

Leader O'Cola: Grungehamster: So question: if we give every individual a $7,000 deduction for health insurance (or $20,000 deduction per household). What will the 47% 43% of households that don't have a federal income tax liability increase to?

I asked the same question basically.

The cognitive dissonance train has left the station apparently.



... crickets....
 
2013-09-18 01:41:49 PM  
Roe, and his conservative cohorts, have dubbed their alternative the Healthcare Flexibility and Choices for Families Act. The bill is 200 pages compared to the Affordable Care Act's 2,700 pages.
heh. Yes, that's noteworthy.
 
2013-09-18 01:43:15 PM  
Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.
 
2013-09-18 01:43:49 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: AirForceVet: Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.

[Cite needed] Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, you are just saying "I hate republicans, and whatever republicans are offering, I'm again' it!"



Here's the best I can find immediately. Alas, the House GOP didn't provide details other than simple paragraphs.

See, TAX CUTS! With vague statements included of what their plan should provide, not WILL provide.

/Sounds like more smoke & mirrors to me, dude.
 
2013-09-18 01:44:49 PM  

freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.


images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-09-18 01:47:23 PM  
Lucky LaRue:  I am pretty sure I applauded the democrats who said they would be thrilled if the GOP put forward ObamaCare as their own.  It's not them I have a problem with, is it?  It's the extremist who give example after example of why they should feel justified being against any GOP proposal regardless of its content.

Liberals who oppose the imaginary "Republicans proposing policy currently proposed by Democrats" are extremists.
 
2013-09-18 01:47:49 PM  

AirForceVet: BojanglesPaladin: AirForceVet: Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.

[Cite needed] Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, you are just saying "I hate republicans, and whatever republicans are offering, I'm again' it!"


Here's the best I can find immediately. Alas, the House GOP didn't provide details other than simple paragraphs.

See, TAX CUTS! With vague statements included of what their plan should provide, not WILL provide.

/Sounds like more smoke & mirrors to me, dude.


I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.
 
2013-09-18 01:48:01 PM  

freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.


You get the same response when you ask people to name three Amendments other than the second, and to define of socialism.

...in my experience, anyway.
 
2013-09-18 01:52:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

You mean like the Republicans did when Obama implemented their plan?

The important thing is that both sides are bad.


I'm sorry, I thought we were comparing something liberals might do to something the GOP actually did.  I wasn't aware hypotheticals were equal to tangibles.
 
2013-09-18 01:55:13 PM  

jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue:  I am pretty sure I applauded the democrats who said they would be thrilled if the GOP put forward ObamaCare as their own.  It's not them I have a problem with, is it?  It's the extremist who give example after example of why they should feel justified being against any GOP proposal regardless of its content.

Liberals who oppose the imaginary "Republicans proposing policy currently proposed by Democrats" are extremists.


Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.

Well done.  You get an A.
 
2013-09-18 01:55:44 PM  

freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.


Insufficient downward pressure on healthcare prices and no alternative to private coverage for most people. It pretty much leaves the blodsuckers who wrecked the industry for fun and profit in charge only now its illegal not to buy their product and the state is on the hook to subsidize anyone who literally CANT pay. Its a recipe to be back at the health reform table again in 15 years trying to fix the same old budgetary and moral disaster only this time the Republicans have "a decade of gub'mint failure!!!" To wave in the air.
 
2013-09-18 01:57:56 PM  
Ok, since it doesn't seem most people are talking the numbers, this AP article mentions the tax deductions. $7.5K for an individual, $20K for a family. Note this isn't some sort of cap: even if your plan costs a fraction of the deduction you get a deduction for the full amount.

Here is the breakdown of households who don't pay income tax by quintile in 2011 (the 47% year.) Even eying the numbers you can see how significantly non-payment rates would spike if taxable income dropped $20K for the average family.
 
2013-09-18 01:58:29 PM  

Mentat: I'm sorry, I thought we were comparing something liberals might do to something the GOP actually did. I wasn't aware hypotheticals were equal to tangibles.


Hell if I know man.  All know is that Lucky thinks both sides are bad and that everyone disagreeing with him on anything is a liberal.
 
2013-09-18 02:00:06 PM  

Lucky LaRue: coeyagi: Lucky LaRue: HighOnCraic: coeyagi: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

They've got their projectors on at full strength!

Your mistake is thinking I am a conservative. I think they are just as ridiculous as you are, though.  And, yes, before you trot out that tired trope, I *do* think my political views are superior to both yours and the teahadists.

I forgot.  Finding anyone owning up to being conservative on Fark is about as rare as a conservative proposing legislation that isn't related to your religion, their religion, or your reproductive system.

You make me think of the teahadist that call Mitch McConnell a RINO.  It's like anyone that disagrees with your dogma must be your opposite.  It's sad that you and the 'baggers are so blinded by hatred that you can't envision an point of view that looks on both of your political views with disdain and contempt.


Who said I was blinded by hatred?  Oh, right, you, Capt. Hyperbole.  If you are going to argue that I am making extremist comments you probably shouldn't use the same tactic, ace.
 
2013-09-18 02:00:16 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: I'm sorry, I thought we were comparing something liberals might do to something the GOP actually did. I wasn't aware hypotheticals were equal to tangibles.

Hell if I know man.  All know is that Lucky thinks both sides are bad and that everyone disagreeing with him on anything is a liberal.


I wonder who he thinks you should vote for, party wise.
 
2013-09-18 02:01:32 PM  

Grungehamster: Ok, since it doesn't seem most people are talking the numbers, this AP article mentions the tax deductions. $7.5K for an individual, $20K for a family. Note this isn't some sort of cap: even if your plan costs a fraction of the deduction you get a deduction for the full amount.

Here is the breakdown of households who don't pay income tax by quintile in 2011 (the 47% year.) Even eying the numbers you can see how significantly non-payment rates would spike if taxable income dropped $20K for the average family.


but but but... it's "budget-neutral"

lmao.
 
2013-09-18 02:01:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Triple Oak: Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

 I'm  listening to any serious proposal or solution with an open mind.     I've just yet to hear a serious proposal.

It's a shame too, because the catastrophy of a healthcare system we have in this country is a very complex problem that needs a lot of different voices looking at it from a lot of different points of view and offering a lot of different solutions.    Too bad the GOP couldn't put on their big boy pants and come to the table like grownups in 2009.

I don't get it.  You say you are listening with an open mind, but in the next breath you are antagonizing your opponents.  Would you want to sit down across the table with someone who talks down to you like you're a child?

Republicans have been lying through their teeth regarding their intents in Congress. "Laser-like focus on jobs", etc. Proof is there, they're trying a 42nd time to repeal a plan they created without putting a serious contender for a replacement, or an argument as to why it's so bad it needs repealing with the aforementioned laser-like effort (or lazer, if you prefer). If they came out and said they have a plan for the people to consider, and it was a serious, thought-out plan to help all Americans, it would be very easy to look at the plan without judgment for the offeree and at the very least see what their idea is. Nope, needs repealing, government shutdown looming but still pushing "priorities" around, no serious budget balancing discussions to be had.

I'll take your argument about everything bad Republicans have done prima facie.  Just don't tell me how open minded you are and how willing you are to listen to their points of view while making that argument, ok?


I'm one of the people who will watch what you do and compare it to what you say. It's hard to forget history but it's not impossible for someone to have a change of heart. What I see from the Republicans now is more baseless party support and spinning wheels. If an individual Republican came out and said something intelligent about a policy or suggested a change that would be more beneficial than what's out there, I'll stop and listen. Even if it's just a moment of clarity, it's still worthy of discussion. It's easy to make blanket statements about a party or political movement when there aren't any individuals who are making a positive difference. That's the beauty of free-thinking human beings; we can have these discussions intelligently when we choose to. I'm very open-minded, but I prefer to see results or at least proposed steps in the right direction.
 
2013-09-18 02:04:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue: jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue:  I am pretty sure I applauded the democrats who said they would be thrilled if the GOP put forward ObamaCare as their own.  It's not them I have a problem with, is it?  It's the extremist who give example after example of why they should feel justified being against any GOP proposal regardless of its content.

Liberals who oppose the imaginary "Republicans proposing policy currently proposed by Democrats" are extremists.

Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.

Well done.  You get an A.


I support Obamacare because it's coming from Democrats.

I would oppose Obamacare if it was coming from Republicans.

I would oppose it were it coming from Republicans because I would at that time be supporting the more liberal and even better plan that would be coming from Democrats were Obamacare actually being proposed and supported by conservatives.

My lack of supporting Obamacare were it being put forth by the Republicans isn't an example of extremism, it's an example of realism.

Realistically, were your hypothetical Republicans doing what you're postulating, there *would be a better option* than that being put forth by those hypothetical Republicans. Generally speaking, Republicans put forth shiatty ideas when compared to all the ideas available at any single moment and Democrats put forth slightly less shiatty ideas.
 
2013-09-18 02:05:24 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mentat: I'm sorry, I thought we were comparing something liberals might do to something the GOP actually did. I wasn't aware hypotheticals were equal to tangibles.

Hell if I know man.  All know is that Lucky thinks both sides are bad and that everyone disagreeing with him on anything is a liberal.


The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.  Both of these sides are bad.  Bad for the country, bad for society, and probably the reason prime-time TV sucks, too.  Fortunately, this is a contrived dichotomy and there is a superior way to approach politics that doesn't include a primary-school understanding of good-vs-evil and right-vs-wrong.

And, I am sorry if you think I am lumping people who disagree with this assessment as "liberal", but if you encourage some teahadist to come in to this thread, I'll show my contempt for them, too.
 
2013-09-18 02:07:49 PM  
Tax cuts so you can buy insurance
Tort reform
HSA
Purchase insurance across state lines


The whole thing is weak, old, tried, and late.  They even trot out the old "increased competition will lower costs".  It stinks on ice.
 
2013-09-18 02:09:28 PM  

Heliovdrake: Go ahead, name something of value that the GOP as a whole has done in the last 4.5 years.


Largely responsible for the first black two-term President.  That's pretty cool.   Also boosted the ratings of the Daily Show and Colbert Report.  Increase in atheism in the US, maybe?

//Oh, did you mean intentionally done?
 
2013-09-18 02:09:37 PM  

coeyagi: Who said I was blinded by hatred? Oh, right, you, Capt. Hyperbole. If you are going to argue that I am making extremist comments you probably shouldn't use the same tactic, ace.


My bad.. you exude love

I love it when ConservaTrolls high five on Fark.  An angel gets its wings.... ripped the f*ck off and sold to a Chinese pillow manufacturer.

You do realize that is how you lose elections and lose faith, right?  By being a worthless sack of obstructionist douchebags for 4.5 years.  I mean, we'll take a look and listen to what they have to say, but ultimately why would we think - without seeing it yet - that it would do anything but help HMOs and doctors more and regular people less?  They have done nothing for anyone in the lower classes except sh*t on their faces.

Why do you enjoy having your face sh*t upon?
 
2013-09-18 02:10:11 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Tax cuts so you can buy insurance
Tort reform
HSA
Purchase insurance across state lines


The whole thing is weak, old, tried, and late.  They even trot out the old "increased competition will lower costs".  It stinks on ice.


Yeah, unless we give the Federal Government more authority in our daily lives, it's gonna flop! hurrrrrrrrrrrr!
 
2013-09-18 02:10:39 PM  

Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.


Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!
 
2013-09-18 02:11:54 PM  

Aristocles: Soup4Bonnie: Tax cuts so you can buy insurance
Tort reform
HSA
Purchase insurance across state lines


The whole thing is weak, old, tried, and late.  They even trot out the old "increased competition will lower costs".  It stinks on ice.

Yeah, unless we give the Federal Government more authority in our daily lives, it's gonna flop! hurrrrrrrrrrrr!


You can always opt out.
 
2013-09-18 02:12:44 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Liberals who


Again, name me these Liberals.  Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.
 
2013-09-18 02:12:51 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


That's not a strawman, that's straight-up empirical observation.  And, you are right - when it comes to the extremist on the left and on the right, my political views are superior.
 
2013-09-18 02:14:59 PM  

2wolves: Again, name me these Liberals. Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.


Uh.. "pseudo-conservative" would imply a "false" conservative.  I'm pretty sure you were going for something else, so I'll let you have another go at it, if you'd like.
 
2013-09-18 02:15:21 PM  
Lucky LaRue:
Sorry, man - you're starting to ramble and I couldn't make out your point there.  Could you tighten up your argument a little?

Favorited!
 
2013-09-18 02:15:22 PM  

Lucky LaRue: straight-up empirical observation


Bushwa.  Take a look at the last national election and see the number of votes for the Socialist party or the Communist party in the U.S..

You're lying.
 
2013-09-18 02:16:23 PM  

freak7: What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obama care can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.


/ftfy
 
2013-09-18 02:16:40 PM  

Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Again, name me these Liberals. Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.

Uh.. "pseudo-conservative" would imply a "false" conservative.  I'm pretty sure you were going for something else, so I'll let you have another go at it, if you'd like.


Not at all.  There is a definition that has been around since the late sixties.

Would you like to know more?


/anyone else smelling internet dentist?
 
2013-09-18 02:20:21 PM  

2wolves: Lucky LaRue: 2wolves: Again, name me these Liberals. Then we'll match them up to their voting records and see how much water you're carrying for the pseudo-conservatives.

Uh.. "pseudo-conservative" would imply a "false" conservative.  I'm pretty sure you were going for something else, so I'll let you have another go at it, if you'd like.

Not at all.  There is a definition that has been around since the late sixties.

Would you like to know more?


/anyone else smelling internet dentist?


Seriously, dude.  I think you might be having a stroke or something.  If you have friends or family around, ask them to take you to see a doctor.
 
2013-09-18 02:20:47 PM  

2wolves: Lucky LaRue: straight-up empirical observation

Bushwa.  Take a look at the last national election and see the number of votes for the Socialist party or the Communist party in the U.S..

You're lying.


The Communist party endorsed Obama, so you could say that they won.
 
2013-09-18 02:21:15 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!

That's not a strawman, that's straight-up empirical observation.  And, you are right - when it comes to the extremist on the left and on the right, my political views are superior.


You mean the ones that basically only exist in your head. If it's empirical observation, where is your data?
 
2013-09-18 02:22:24 PM  

Lucky LaRue: AirForceVet: BojanglesPaladin: AirForceVet: Sorry, Lucky LaRue, but the bill put up by the House Republicans sucks.

[Cite needed] Do you have any details on the promised plan? Two sentences hinting at some objectives? It May well be a pile of fail, but until we have some tangible details, you are just saying "I hate republicans, and whatever republicans are offering, I'm again' it!"


Here's the best I can find immediately. Alas, the House GOP didn't provide details other than simple paragraphs.

See, TAX CUTS! With vague statements included of what their plan should provide, not WILL provide.

/Sounds like more smoke & mirrors to me, dude.

I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.


That would require the Republicans to work with the Democrats to improve ACA. They have stated time and time again that they have no interest in doing so. To paraphrase YOU, it is pretty hard to find common ground with a side that believes it is their purpose in life to kill off your signature legislation. Once again, your argument is invalid.
 
2013-09-18 02:25:12 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.


Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash

And, we're through the looking glass, here, people.
 
2013-09-18 02:26:07 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!



What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".


...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.
 
2013-09-18 02:26:14 PM  

freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.


Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.
 
2013-09-18 02:27:16 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: Well.. yes, that's the gist of it, anyway, though I would say "hypothetical" rather than "imaginary".  Liberals who oppose hypothetical GOP proposals that support Democrat policy are extremists.

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash

And, we're through the looking glass, here, people.


You don't even try, do you?
 
2013-09-18 02:29:27 PM  

Wasteland: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".

...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.


Your logic skills are truly amazing.  Farcical, yes, but amazing nonetheless.
 
2013-09-18 02:29:30 PM  

Wasteland: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".

...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.


It's like a mobius strip of ass-biting.

/I'm getting an acid flashback here
 
2013-09-18 02:30:49 PM  

Wasteland: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".

...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.


That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP.
 
2013-09-18 02:31:40 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Your logic skills are truly amazing.  Farcical, yes, but amazing nonetheless.


Come on, where's all this empiric evidence that makes you so superior to us? Is it a pdf or Excel spreadsheet?
 
2013-09-18 02:35:20 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Wasteland: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: The most unfortunate part of this whole discussion is that people with your mindset seem to think there are only two sides:  Extreme Left and Extreme Right.

Awesome, you light that strawman on fire, dude! Kick its imaginary ass! You're so superior to it!


What's particularly amusing is that the above line follows this exchange:

Lucky LaRue: d23:
Right now I am considered a dirty leftist because I think that every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap.
Again, being a "leftist" to these folks means I don't agree with their point of view in lockstep.
No, you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap".

...which is, itself, an explicit statement that being opposed to either side makes one necessarily of the other.  No third option given; mere categorical disagreement is sufficient.  He's managed to chase the argument full circle, to the point of biting his own ass.

That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP.


Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.
 
2013-09-18 02:35:46 PM  
Certain FARKers have done - and continue to do - an amazing job at holding libs accountable for things they never said.

Please join me in awarding their non-partisan excellence...

static.wixstatic.com
 
2013-09-18 02:37:20 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?


The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.
 
2013-09-18 02:37:40 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.


Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.
 
2013-09-18 02:38:55 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Certain FARKers have done - and continue to do - an amazing job at holding libs accountable for things they never said.


Libralllllls
Inside my heeeeeaaaaddd
Echoooo
Things no one said....
 
2013-09-18 02:39:37 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.


Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.
 
2013-09-18 02:39:57 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.


hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.
 
2013-09-18 02:40:05 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.


Can you suppose that you might care to hazard a guess as to what those one or two things might be?
 
2013-09-18 02:40:25 PM  

Heliovdrake: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.


Don't you see? It's based on empirical evidence! It's probably lost under the couch.
 
2013-09-18 02:41:03 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.

hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.


What did I erase? I did not modify your post in any way. You can go back and look.  Where's this empirical evidence?
 
2013-09-18 02:42:36 PM  

phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.



Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?
 
2013-09-18 02:43:25 PM  

Heliovdrake: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Don't forget the amazing job hes been doing to win the hearts and minds of everyone in this thread.

Well, he won Aristocles heart at least.


There's a white elephant if I've ever seen one...
 
2013-09-18 02:45:59 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?


It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.
 
2013-09-18 02:46:41 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Wow.. you really are reaching, now.  At least take my comment out of your reply before you manipulate it to make it say something that supports your argument, dude.

Please share where this happens. I'm pretty certain at this point you don't even know what your argument is, other than you're SO INCREDIBLY superior to everyone else because of this empirical evidence that no one can see.

hahaha.. That's good.  At least you are learning to erase damning evidence against yourself before posting follow-ups.

What did I erase? I did not modify your post in any way. You can go back and look.  Where's this empirical evidence?


You seemed to be treating "empirical" as some sort of magic word.  You realize it simply means "based on observation and experience rather than theory", right?  Sorry if you expected me to keep it all recorded in a notebook.

Of course, we both know you are trying to weasel out of owning up to your logical fallacy in which you said, "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).
 
2013-09-18 02:48:19 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You seemed to be treating "empirical" as some sort of magic word.  You realize it simply means "based on observation and experience rather than theory", right?  Sorry if you expected me to keep it all recorded in a notebook.


Correct. If there is evidence, you should be able to provide it. Where is it?
 
2013-09-18 02:48:23 PM  
Welp, thread just got lots shorter.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:04 PM  

Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).


The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:14 PM  

InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.


As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.
 
2013-09-18 02:49:45 PM  

gnosis301: Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Republican alternative was single payer health care?


Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Democrats then came out against it?

/not bloody likely, but if it *did* happen, it would be at that point that I would be 100% certain that the universe is trolling us
 
2013-09-18 02:50:15 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Welp, thread just got lots shorter.


Did you get a new ignore, or was it due to the fist of Mod?
 
2013-09-18 02:51:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right


Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?
 
2013-09-18 02:51:26 PM  

born_yesterday: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Welp, thread just got lots shorter.

Did you get a new ignore, or was it due to the fist of Mod?


I just added to my list.

Which I rarely, rarely do.
 
2013-09-18 02:51:41 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).

The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.


Unless you are going to tell me you have a kinder, gentler definition for "leftist" than the one I've been using, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:07 PM  
Lucky seems to define "extreme" as "anyone I disagree with," apparently.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:33 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month


CSB:  We recently got into the federal risk pool for health care, which cut our monthly premium from $1600+ (granted, for a family) to about $300.  Per month.
 
2013-09-18 02:52:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: "That is a very good point. According to his logic, you cannot disagree with the GOP without being liberal, and yet HE HIMSELF states that he disagrees with the GOP."  Which was a perversion of my statement, "you are a "leftist" because you think "every idea (or lack of) of the GOP is total crap"." (Emphasis added to drive home the point of your blathering).

The logical fallacy lies in the fact that you think everyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP is a leftist.

Unless you are going to tell me you have a kinder, gentler definition for "leftist" than the one I've been using, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.


A leftist is not simply anyone who disagrees 100% with the GOP. You appear to believe that a moderate is someone who disagrees some with the left and some with the right. This is fallacy
 
2013-09-18 02:53:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.

Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough. Seriously.  You guys suck.


As has been said, no matter how much thou doth protest, you fit in this category better than most in this thread.
 
2013-09-18 02:53:24 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right

Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?


Dude.. what's the point?  Your aren't even arguing anymore; you are just grabbing snatches of conversation and imbuing them with as much hate-filled rhetoric as you can manage before sending them out for our amusement.
 
2013-09-18 02:54:54 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.


Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?


Fair enough question. The answer is that I have a son and step-daughter who still live there and the laws do indeed have an impact on them. As a result, I care about how it all plays out.
 
2013-09-18 02:55:19 PM  

xanadian: DROxINxTHExWIND: Most people are paying about $80/ per person, per month

CSB:  We recently got into the federal risk pool for health care, which cut our monthly premium from $1600+ (granted, for a family) to about $300.  Per month.


Damn. That is a nice chunk of change.
 
2013-09-18 02:55:37 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: Lucky LaRue: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You haven't read enough of this thread if that's the conclusion you've drawn.  My only observation is that both extremists (left and right) are bad for the country, and they will disagree with their own ideas if the other side puts it forward.  I've not made any effort to opine on the ACA.

Great!  You may consider that point thoroughly rendered into equine form, worked unto exhaustion and expiration, and being put through the indignities of repeated blows in attempts to rouse its lifeless form into action.

"Say something once, why say it again?" - David Byrne

"Say something once, why say it fifty more times with an air of snotty condescension?" - The Rest of Fark.

Seriously, man.  Give it a rest unless you have something to say.

Ha!  So, since I am not arguing against your straw man, you'd rather I just shut up and go away so you can feel the warm, secure embrace of your echo-chamber?  I am sorry if you think it's snotty condescension, but the observation that extremist are destroying America can't be made enough. Seriously.  You guys suck.

As has been said, no matter how much thou doth protest, you fit in this category better than most in this thread.


I'm just here to mock and ridicule extremist.  I'm not sure how that makes me an extremist..
 
2013-09-18 02:56:02 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right

Also known as "those who voted in the Presidential election." Or did you think that only the bat-shiat insane extreme right attended debates and cheered? Is this that empirical observation of yours again?

Dude.. what's the point?  Your aren't even arguing anymore; you are just grabbing snatches of conversation and imbuing them with as much hate-filled rhetoric as you can manage before sending them out for our amusement.


Hate-filled? Where? You've got to be kidding. Disagreeing is not "hate"
 
2013-09-18 02:58:46 PM  
I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.
 
2013-09-18 02:59:38 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.


So you consider yourself a moderate, then?
 
2013-09-18 03:00:11 PM  

phenn: I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab


Maybe.

- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people

Why?

- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix

For whom?  And how?

- Doesn't address cost of care issues

I'll give you that one.  And is one of my beefs with the plan.

- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships

How?

- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Please explain.
 
2013-09-18 03:01:48 PM  

xanadian: gnosis301: Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Republican alternative was single payer health care?

Wouldn't it just be so fun if the Democrats then came out against it?

/not bloody likely, but if it *did* happen, it would be at that point that I would be 100% certain that the universe is trolling us


Considering the public option was taken out at the request of democrats who were in the insurance companies' pocket, it wouldn't surprise me if they did vote against it.
 
2013-09-18 03:02:12 PM  

phenn: Satan's Bunny Slippers: phenn: freak7: Not everybody is going to be in favor of a particular course of action, that's cool with me. What pisses me the fark off is that not one person I've talked to that's against Obamacare can even begin to speak halfway intelligently on what it is they have a problem with.

Maybe you're running into people who oppose it because they dislike the president. That's bound to happen from time to time.

I'll give you my headaches with it:

- It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

Having said that, no, I don't have a solution. Wish I did.


Don't I remember you saying that you don't live here, and won't come back?  So why would you even care about a solution?

Fair enough question. The answer is that I have a son and step-daughter who still live there and the laws do indeed have an impact on them. As a result, I care about how it all plays out.


Fair enough.
 
2013-09-18 03:03:01 PM  

Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.


Almost wife-like?
 
2013-09-18 03:05:23 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: OK, a prick is a much more apt description.


Well, I really think that goes without saying, doesn't it?
 
2013-09-18 03:06:30 PM  

2wolves: Deucednuisance: Lucky LaRue: You don't even try, do you?

The way you try everyone's patience?

No, I do not.

You just keep showing everyone how you're superior to all of us.

It's very convincing.

Almost wife-like?


This had me laughing to the core.
 
2013-09-18 03:14:55 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Well, I really think that goes without saying, doesn't it?


Would that it did.  Would that it did.

You seem to revel in the saying of it, over and over.
 
2013-09-18 03:17:37 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: I'm glad to see they finally brought their comprehensive plan to fruition

[api.ning.com image 279x412]


Belated apologies.  I hadn't seen your post when I posted the exact same image a bit later.
 
2013-09-18 03:17:53 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?


I consider myself to be center-left.
 
2013-09-18 03:21:37 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?

I consider myself to be center-left.


So, you ♥ Stalin?
 
2013-09-18 03:23:56 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: I like the idea that you have to agree with some of the supposed extremist's ideas in order to be considered a moderate.

So you consider yourself a moderate, then?

I consider myself to be center-left.

So, you ♥ Stalin?


Obviously. Since I disagree with the GOP 100% of the time, I must be an extreme lefty commie libby lib.
 
2013-09-18 03:24:09 PM  
Flab:

- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
Why?


The mandate itself takes a few options off the table (self-insuring, concierge care) and premiums can end up rather dear if you make a decent living. I know, if you make a decent living, you should be insured. But, the offerings - gold, platinum, etc - are quite costly (according to the online calculator) and coverage percentages and out of pocket expenses don't seem quite worth it to me.

- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
For whom?  And how?


Well, the federal government will now have a hand in managing state medicaid disbursements. Say your state's medicaid is run efficiently. Federal oversight adds another cog. Seems redundant and unnecessary.

- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
How?


Approved vs. unapproved charges for services. I do think it should be between you and your doc and not according to fee schedules. Yes, I realize insurance companies already do this and there's probably no way around it.

- Going to be a fustercluck to manage
Please explain.


See above about medicaid. Add in the IRS to collect fines/taxes on non-compliant people. I'm just not seeing how it possibly could be managed in an efficient manner. This doesn't even take into account hospital reimbursements for patients who are under the radar (homeless, etc.). Look at how screwy Medicare got when they switched things in the early 1990s. It's a confusing, cumbersome process to work through for the patient, the hospital, the doctor and so on.

I'm sure there were tremendously good intentions (for some) that drove health care reform. But, it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.

Take everything I just said and table it for a moment. The core problem - cost of care - still exists and I don't think ACA will do anything but drive it up further.
 
2013-09-18 03:24:29 PM  

phenn: - [Obamacare is] going to be difficult on self-employed people


Huh? Self-employed people are who it helps! None of them can get insurance right now if they have pre-existing conditions (and it doesn't take canceraids - something like sleep apnea can make you uninsurable, and Heaven forbid you're a woman whose uterus is still present).

phenn: - Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships


Does it? I hadn't read of anything in the health policy blogs along those lines. There was a lot of stuff spewing from the noise machine about doctors being required to ask about your sex life, everyone getting implanted with RFIDs, yadda yadda yadda, but nothing based in reality.

Insurers will still have lost of annoying hoops for your doctor to jump through, but if anything that ought to be lessened by Obamacare as insurers are more heavily regulated, and with a regulated minimum medical loss ratio, there's less incentive to just throw up arbirtary utilization barriers.
 
2013-09-18 03:26:50 PM  

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.


Oh so you created a strawman with a false equivalency?

So ... So ....so close to the logical fallacy hat trick.   Better luck next time.
 
2013-09-18 03:28:16 PM  

theknuckler_33: I'll mark you down as considering 40-some votes to repeal/defund Obamacare as time well spent.


I did not say it was, and you know that. I didn't even say anything at all about it.

But by all means, keep on proving my point for me.
 
2013-09-18 03:29:47 PM  

phenn: it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.


Health care's different - there's no functional market for the government to gum up. Consumers are neither rational nor informed about it, principal-agent problems abound, pricing is totally arbirtary and opaque, and it's not even excludable thanks to things like EMTALA and basic humanity.

A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.
 
2013-09-18 03:31:51 PM  

InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.

Oh so you created a strawman with a false equivalency?

So ... So ....so close to the logical fallacy hat trick.   Better luck next time.


Simple disagreement with an observation does not indicate fallacy.  Even if - and this is important, because I know your mom told you you were special - even if it's your opinion.
 
2013-09-18 03:34:46 PM  

Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.


If corporations didn't have legislators in their back pockets, you might see some real competition for premium dollars.

I don't think that's soon to happen, though.  :-(
 
2013-09-18 03:35:01 PM  
Lucky LaRue: Simple disagreement with an observation does not indicate fallacy.

An "observation" isn't "something I just made up to support my argument."
 
2013-09-18 03:43:56 PM  

phenn: Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country. That's why everyone else has more fiat in their health care systems.

If corporations didn't have legislators in their back pockets, you might see some real competition for premium dollars.

I don't think that's soon to happen, though.  :-(


The problem there is "confusopoly" - it's one Obamacare actually tries to make progress on by standardizing on coverages so that "bronze", "silver" etc. are roughly comparable.

In today's market, insurers have all kinds of tools to hide costs, exclusions, etc. in the plan. Insurers tend to treat their exclusion policies like nuclear secrets - trying to find out ahead of time if speech therapy will be covered in your situation? Good luck!

Customers often don't pick the best insurance plan for them during employers' open enrollment, when there are limited choices, the difference in impacts is easy to calculate, and the employer usually isn't actively trying to hide costs.
 
2013-09-18 03:46:51 PM  

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


I hate to break it to you, but you are projecting hard.

You came here to assign people strawman views that were not expressed in the thread and now you have proceeded to declare how superior you are to the strawmen.
 
2013-09-18 03:49:37 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

I see you just met HighonCraic :)


Gee, and I'd always been fairly civil in discussions with you.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day!
 
2013-09-18 03:49:40 PM  

Thrag: Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

I hate to break it to you, but you are projecting hard.

You came here to assign people strawman views that were not expressed in the thread and now you have proceeded to declare how superior you are to the strawmen.


You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".
 
2013-09-18 03:50:51 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.


This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.
 
2013-09-18 03:50:52 PM  

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.  Still, I hope the Democrats give it consideration; there may be one or two things that can be integrated into ObamaCare to make it a better law.


I completey agree with you that Democrats should give serious consideration to what could be better ideas and/or approaches from the Republicans, Libertarians, space aliens, etc. I did the same as a supervisor where someone working for me came up with a good idea, we implemented and I gave credit to the idea's originator. Makes the tone of the workcenter more fun, you know.

I just don't think we're going to see that from this House of Representatives in the immediate/near future.
 
2013-09-18 03:50:58 PM  

phenn: Flab:

- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
Why?

The mandate itself takes a few options off the table (self-insuring, concierge care) and premiums can end up rather dear if you make a decent living. I know, if you make a decent living, you should be insured. But, the offerings - gold, platinum, etc - are quite costly (according to the online calculator) and coverage percentages and out of pocket expenses don't seem quite worth it to me.


I don't get this part of your argument.  Are you honestly complaining that payment on your beemer are expensive?  Why don't you go for the lower brackets if the gold or platinum coverage is too expensive?

- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
For whom?  And how?

Well, the federal government will now have a hand in managing state medicaid disbursements. Say your state's medicaid is run efficiently. Federal oversight adds another cog. Seems redundant and unnecessary.


Well, yeah.  The Federal government is injecting more money in the states' programs.It follows that it should have oversight in the spending of that money.  If your state's medicaid program was already well managed, then they shouldn't need this addtitional money and wont' need the addtitional oversight either.

- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
How?

Approved vs. unapproved charges for services. I do think it should be between you and your doc and not according to fee schedules. Yes, I realize insurance companies already do this and there's probably no way around it.


So you're saying the "business as usual" is now the fault of the government?

- Going to be a fustercluck to manage
Please explain.

See above about medicaid. Add in the IRS to collect fines/taxes on non-compliant people. I'm just not seeing how it possibly could be managed in an efficient manner. This doesn't even take into account hospital reimbursements for patients who are under the radar (homeless, etc.). Look at how screwy Medicare got when they switched things in the early 1990s. It's a confusing, cumbersome process to work through for the patient, the hospital, the doctor and so on.


You will have one extra box to fill on your tax forms, and may have to submit an extra receipt.  Those that don't will have a new fine to pay.  since the tax code changes every year and extra boxes to fill are added and removed every year, I don't see why this particular requirment would be more or less burdensome than the other ones.

As far as hospital reimbursement for homeless people and the others that are under the radar, things won't change all that much.  If they, by some incredible fluke, manage to get insurance, their insurance company will pick up the tab.  If they don't - like today - then the government will end up footing the bill, like it does today.  Nothing changes there.

I'm sure there were tremendously good intentions (for some) that drove health care reform. But, it seems to me, every time the federal government puts their collective hands into something, they make it more expensive, less efficient and confusing.

Take everything I just said and table it for a moment. The core problem - cost of care - still exists and I don't think ACA will do anything but drive it up further.


You can't complain about cost of care being too high AND about bureaucrats making lists of approved charges and services at the same time.  You either biatch about healtchare being too expensive, or you biatch about the Feddle Gummint forcing soshulizm down our troats.  Pick one.
 
2013-09-18 03:51:56 PM  

Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country.


Sure there is:

1) Detach Health insurance from employment and allow insurance plans with the same provider to be carried across state lines.
2) Kill all HMOs and collusion between providers and insurance companies.
3) Ensure that "cash price" and "insurance price" are the same.
4) Simplify coverage plans so they are more easily understood by a lay person.
5) Require that pricing for all medical procedures is presented directly to the end user prior to or at the time of treatment.
6) Remove restrictions on importation of exactly same medicines and medical equipment.
7) Keep the ACA's Pre-Existing condition and lifetime cap bans

With those reforms in place, while not perfect, you would largely enable the functioning of market pressures.

But, of course, this won't actually happen.
 
2013-09-18 03:52:12 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".


Who?
 
2013-09-18 03:53:08 PM  

Thrag: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.


Oh.. never mind.  I didn't realize you were just a troll grabbing words out of context to make them fit your own,  twisted perceptions.
 
2013-09-18 03:53:18 PM  

HighOnCraic: Gee, and I'd always been fairly civil in discussions with you.


We have. Just busting your chops mostly. (.... but you do sometimes argue in circles when the spirit is in you :)
 
2013-09-18 03:53:47 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Thrag: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.

Oh.. never mind.  I didn't realize you were just a troll grabbing words out of context to make them fit your own,  twisted perceptions.


Oh, there's that old "out of context argument" from you! When all else fails, try that!
 
2013-09-18 03:54:19 PM  

Aristocles: Chummer45: So is the draft, jury duty, taxes, death, and crippling disease. But it's all stuff that's a fact of life and that we as a society have to deal with.

I'll give you jury duty. We have a volunteer military now, and death and disease are, indeed facts of life, but they're not affronts to liberty.


Two things (1) the government undoubtedly has the authority to institute the draft, and (2) are taxes an affront to liberty?

If your answer is "yes," which I suspect it may be, then it shows some deep and not at all oversimplistic thinking on your part.
 
2013-09-18 03:54:48 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Thrag: Lucky LaRue: I am beginning to suspect you just talk in circles until people get tired of trying to extract reason from you.

This is some more really high grade projection. Keep going. It should make for an fun diversion until some details about the plan get released for people to discuss.

Oh.. never mind.  I didn't realize you were just a troll grabbing words out of context to make them fit your own,  twisted perceptions.


More projection. This is really great stuff. Dig on brother!
 
2013-09-18 03:55:02 PM  

Flab: You either biatch about healtchare being too expensive, or you biatch about the Feddle Gummint forcing soshulizm down our troats. Pick one.


What makes you think the two are mutually exclusive?
 
2013-09-18 03:55:26 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?


Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"
 
2013-09-18 03:57:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Man, I am really starting to worry about you. Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since. Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"


Cameron is fine, but after a certain point, he can't stop at "agree to disagree". Give him his two free internets so he can declare himself winnah and move on.
 
2013-09-18 03:57:30 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?


This guy, for one:

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.
 
2013-09-18 03:59:07 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"


How should one respond to a pathetic dodge like that? Let's see, how about:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

 
2013-09-18 04:00:14 PM  

sprawl15: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

This guy, for one:

Lucky LaRue: I don't doubt the GOP bill is a pile of trash - I would be surprised if it was anything more than a rally-post for their base as they gear up for primary season.


It's almost as if you said to yourself, "What is the quickest and most sure way and can demonstrate my ineptitude in this thread."
 
2013-09-18 04:02:08 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: Man, I am really starting to worry about you. Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since. Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

Cameron is fine, but after a certain point, he can't stop at "agree to disagree". Give him his two free internets so he can declare himself winnah and move on.


Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it. You are not doing yourself any favors. Asking someone to back up a very simple and direct claim like "people in the thread as saying X", with "who?" is hardly an example of someone who refuses to disagree to a ridiculous extent. While was you say about the poster may or may not be true in other circumstances, you have really thrown you hat into the wrong ring here.
 
2013-09-18 04:02:16 PM  

Lucky LaRue: "What is the quickest and most sure way and can demonstrate my ineptitude in this thread."


could you please diagram that sentence
 
2013-09-18 04:03:11 PM  

Flab: You can't complain about cost of care being too high AND about bureaucrats making lists of approved charges and services at the same time. You either biatch about healtchare being too expensive, or you biatch about the Feddle Gummint forcing soshulizm down our troats. Pick one.


;-)

Believe it or not, I'm not actually biatching. I want to have the conversation and I'm interested in hearing all sides. I know. Welcome to FARK.

I think it's natural to have some discomfort with ACA. Jeebs, the bill itself is massive. My previous points still stand and, let's face it: Neither you nor I truly know how the whole thing will shake out in the end.

The one thing I do know is that cost of care is too high and quality is too low.
 
2013-09-18 04:05:43 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"


I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.
 
2013-09-18 04:06:40 PM  

Thrag: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: Man, I am really starting to worry about you. Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since. Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

Cameron is fine, but after a certain point, he can't stop at "agree to disagree". Give him his two free internets so he can declare himself winnah and move on.

Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it. You are not doing yourself any favors. Asking someone to back up a very simple and direct claim like "people in the thread as saying X", with "who?" is hardly an example of someone who refuses to disagree to a ridiculous extent. While was you say about the poster may or may not be true in other circumstances, you have really thrown you hat into the wrong ring here.


Believe it or not, there are people that have been engaged in this thread all day and, while your attempts to  jump on the table in the last hour and drop a steaming pile of shiat on it are amusing, it isn't something I am taking with any degree of seriousness.
 
2013-09-18 04:06:59 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: HighOnCraic: Gee, and I'd always been fairly civil in discussions with you.

We have. Just busting your chops mostly. (.... but you do sometimes argue in circles when the spirit is in you :)


I usually have lengthy citations backing up what I post, but hey, we can agree to disagree.  The circle is now broken.
 
2013-09-18 04:07:48 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.


I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.
 
2013-09-18 04:08:16 PM  

phenn: The one thing I do know is that cost of care is too high and quality is too low.


When it comes to the high costs, here's an article I tried to submit this when it first was published, but sadly it wasn't good enough flamebait for fark.

How does a few dollars of salt water get billed to a patient at around $500?
 
2013-09-18 04:08:32 PM  

Thrag: Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it.


Oh Thrag. Thanks so much for the 'advice'. I haven't white-kinighted anyone, nor have I opined on anyone being "right". And speaking of white knighting and throwing your gat into someone else's ring, Cameron's a big boy and if he has an issue with my observations, then I'm sure he has a working keyboard that will serve him just fine without your assistance. All you Fark Kids TM with your funny little notions about this being some sort of combat with 'winners and losers' are just the cutest.

I like Cameron1984 because he's not a complete idiot slapfighter. That's why despite sometimes being at odds, he's not on my ignore list, but he does have a tendency to beat dead horses to a pulp, and sometimes gets caught up on arguing over extraneous incidentals in lieu of the actual topic.

YMMV.
 
2013-09-18 04:08:34 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.


Aw, you can't even name ONE name? Come on. Just one person who said that. You have 378 comments to choose from, why can't you provide even one that backs up your claim?
 
2013-09-18 04:11:17 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.

Aw, you can't even name ONE name? Come on. Just one person who said that. You have 378 comments to choose from, why can't you provide even one that backs up your claim?


Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.
 
2013-09-18 04:11:20 PM  

HighOnCraic: I usually have lengthy citations backing up what I post, but hey, we can agree to disagree.


Yep. And often pretty useful ones. Which I particularly like when they contradict my own assessments. I usually only come here to have my own thoughts and analysis challenged and sharpened.
 
2013-09-18 04:12:11 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.


MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?
 
2013-09-18 04:12:13 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.


Once again, the only appropriate reply is:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."


You are so worked up you can't put forth anything to support your statement and you can only throw insults and smugly celebrate your imagined victory against the strawman you created. A hypocritical projection trifecta.

Please proceed.
 
2013-09-18 04:14:44 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?


So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?
 
2013-09-18 04:14:50 PM  

Thrag: phenn: The one thing I do know is that cost of care is too high and quality is too low.

When it comes to the high costs, here's an article I tried to submit this when it first was published, but sadly it wasn't good enough flamebait for fark.

How does a few dollars of salt water get billed to a patient at around $500?


Holy crap. That's enough to make you want to eat your own head.  :-(
 
2013-09-18 04:16:36 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Gaseous Anomaly: A market would do better, but there's no good way to get a functional market for healthcare in a first-world country.

Sure there is:

1a) Detach Health insurance from employment


Why would you deny a company from offering health insurance as part of their benefits in order to attract employees?  Secondly, the employers can usually get group rates from the insurers, thereby lowering premiums for the employees.

This solution benefits the insurance companies, and no one else.

1b) and allow insurance plans with the same provider to be carried across state lines.

While this may not be immediate.  In the medium term, this will cause most insurance companies to stop doing business from the more regulated states and only offer policies that come from the states with the less regulations.  Why do you think they can offer lower premiums in some states?

This solution benefits the insurance companies, and no one else.

2) Kill all HMOs and collusion between providers and insurance companies.
3) Ensure that "cash price" and "insurance price" are the same.


Laudable ideal, but impractical.  How can you prevent to private companies from entering into a business deal that is mutually beneficial to both of them?  The amount of legislation required and the manpower to enforce it would be astronomical.

4) Simplify coverage plans so they are more easily understood by a lay person.

Again laudable, but highly unlikely.  Insurance contracts are complex because legal terminology needs to be precise.  I'm sure there are cases where it's overly complex to discourage Joe Q. Public from reading the fine print, but in general, there are good reasons why they are written that way.  The solution you are recommending would also require heavy legislation to make sure that the insurers comply.

5) Require that pricing for all medical procedures is presented directly to the end user prior to or at the time of treatment.

What would that accomplish?  You can't really ask the ambulance to turn around because the price list is too high.

6) Remove restrictions on importation of exactly same medicines and medical equipment.

Importing medicine from Canada or Western Europe may not be a big safety risk, but importing from countries where the standards of production or storage and transportation conditions can be lacking could pose seirous risks ranging from medicine that's ineffective medicine to downright dangerous.

7) Keep the ACA's Pre-Existing condition and lifetime cap bans


And enjoy the prices soaring through the roof.

With those reforms in place, while not perfect, you would largely enable the functioning of market pressures.

But, of course, this won't actually happen.
 
2013-09-18 04:17:04 PM  
This thread has gone from funny, to boring, back to funny, back to boring.

Too bad.  There was some good potential discussion that was overshadowed by all the noise.
 
2013-09-18 04:18:07 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?

So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?


That wasn't your claim. Your claim was that people in this thread were saying that if Republicans are for it, they are against it. Keep in mind, that is a different claim than those (including myself) who state that they disagree with 100% of Republican ideas. Just because you disagree with an idea does not mean that you disagree with it because a Republican is for it.
 
2013-09-18 04:20:03 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: They even trot out the old "increased competition will lower costs".


You mean like insurance exchanges?
 
2013-09-18 04:22:58 PM  

Thrag: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it".

Who?

Man, I am really starting to worry about you.  Your arguments started out well reasoned but you've just gone down hill ever since.  Now, you seem to just be grabbing at anything I say and replying, "Nuh-uh!"

I didn't say "nuh uh," I simply asked for you to back up your assertion. It appears you can't even do that.

I am pretty sure that if you are incapable of reading this thread for yourself, then there is nothing I can say or do to convince you of your stupidity.

Once again, the only appropriate reply is:

Lucky LaRue: This is what I least enjoy about talking with your lot. You get so overwrought you can't even put forward ideas; you just start throwing out insults and celebrating a "score."

You are so worked up you can't put forth anything to support your statement and you can only throw insults and smugly celebrate your imagined victory against the strawman you created. A hypocritical projection trifecta.

Please proceed.


The funny part is, that was his response to:   [ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg]

/I guess I was so overwrought with laughter. . .
 
2013-09-18 04:23:18 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Thrag: Be very careful who you decide to white knight for and when you choose to do it.

Oh Thrag. Thanks so much for the 'advice'. I haven't white-kinighted anyone, nor have I opined on anyone being "right". And speaking of white knighting and throwing your gat into someone else's ring, Cameron's a big boy and if he has an issue with my observations, then I'm sure he has a working keyboard that will serve him just fine without your assistance. All you Fark Kids TM with your funny little notions about this being some sort of combat with 'winners and losers' are just the cutest.


Do you even know what the fark you are on about? I didn't say anything about winners or losers. You are the one who mentioned "winner". And this broad brush "fark kids" crap? Really now. You are starting to engage in the same ridiculous smug strawman based ranting that Lucky is entertaining us by engaging in.

I like Cameron1984 because he's not a complete idiot slapfighter. That's why despite sometimes being at odds, he's not on my ignore list, but he does have a tendency to beat dead horses to a pulp, and sometimes gets caught up on arguing over extraneous incidentals in lieu of the actual topic.
 And as I pointed out, none of that is actually happening here. He asked a simple question, requesting someone to back an assertion. You interjected to make a personal attack based threadjack over that simple asking of "who". While I know that you also like to do exactly what you accuse Cameron of, never back down from even the most ridiculous of arguments, you might want to stop yourself this time.
 
2013-09-18 04:24:59 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?

So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?


Ah, now we see why it took you so long to respond in any way to the question posed. You were busy hooking up the trailer hitch to move the goalposts.
 
2013-09-18 04:25:10 PM  
Well.  It seems that things that quack, waddle, fly, and yearn for rabbit season can not be called ducks.
 
2013-09-18 04:25:14 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: Are you seriously trying to argue that, if I don't do your research for you, then your point is proven?  Really?  And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

Ok.  Congratulations.  You win the internet.

MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?

So, you are suggesting that if I were to find an example of someone claiming that they disagree with everything the Republicans put forth all the time, you would concede that you are a dumbass?

That wasn't your claim. Your claim was that people in this thread were saying that if Republicans are for it, they are against it. Keep in mind, that is a different claim than those (including myself) who state that they disagree with 100% of Republican ideas. Just because you disagree with an idea does not mean that you disagree with it because a Republican is for it.


At least you are learning and did not have to be reminded to remove statements that directly contradict your assertions this time.  Still, however, the comment I made is still there and fairly easy to find:  You're delusional if you think that people have not expressed in this thread some variation of "If Republicans are for it, then I'm against it". (again, emphasis has been added to drive home the point of your ineptitude). And the one you made (and so valiantly tried to change just now) is still there, too:  I disagree with the GOP 100% of the time

If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession.
 
2013-09-18 04:27:35 PM  

Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession


How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.
 
2013-09-18 04:28:06 PM  

Thrag: phenn: The one thing I do know is that cost of care is too high and quality is too low.

When it comes to the high costs, here's an article I tried to submit this when it first was published, but sadly it wasn't good enough flamebait for fark.

How does a few dollars of salt water get billed to a patient at around $500?


How else would they be able to pay for the live pianist in the lobby?
 
2013-09-18 04:29:11 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Believe it or not, there are people that have been engaged in this thread all day and, while your attempts to jump on the table in the last hour and drop a steaming pile of shiat on it are amusing


You know, it's funny. You've got  what? Like 50-60posts in this thread, and every single one of them is either "both sides are bad" trolling, or personal insults and flamebait. But I gotta hand it to you - accusing someone else, anyone else of shiatting all over this thread is the corn peanut topping on the giant shiat sundae you've dumped on us here.

Not one single post out of 60 that is actually on topic. but, yeah, it's other people who are shiatting on the thread.
 
2013-09-18 04:30:24 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.


When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.
 
2013-09-18 04:32:07 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.


Please point out the duplicity in my statements. You are the one who made the claim, once again. Will you back it up this time? Probably not. Again, I ask. How is that a variation? I happen to disagree with 100% of Republican ideas, but not simply because Republicans are for them. Can you explain why that would be a variation on "If a Republican is for it, I'm against it"?
 
2013-09-18 04:32:16 PM  

Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.


And that's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's good you understand that.
 
2013-09-18 04:39:06 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Lucky LaRue: Believe it or not, there are people that have been engaged in this thread all day and, while your attempts to jump on the table in the last hour and drop a steaming pile of shiat on it are amusing

You know, it's funny. You've got  what? Like 50-60posts in this thread, and every single one of them is either "both sides are bad" trolling, or personal insults and flamebait. But I gotta hand it to you - accusing someone else, anyone else of shiatting all over this thread is the corn peanut topping on the giant shiat sundae you've dumped on us here.

Not one single post out of 60 that is actually on topic. but, yeah, it's other people who are shiatting on the thread.


I think the gist of my 50-60 comments have been arguing the point that both extremes are bad, yes.  Taken in whole, though (and with all the responses), that makes up probably near 1/2 of this thread.  Hardly what you can call thread-shiatting, I think, whatever you may think of the argument.
 
2013-09-18 04:40:56 PM  

Thrag: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.

And that's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's good you understand that.


Thrag - the next time there's an politics argument, I'll make sure to invite you early enough to participate.  This time, though, you came in too late in the conversation, and I just don't care what your opinion is.
 
2013-09-18 04:43:55 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: MY research? I'm not the one who made the claim. YOU made it. Why is it suddenly MY responsibility to back up YOUR claim?


Study it out, buddy.
 
2013-09-18 04:47:15 PM  

mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.


It really comes as no surprise to find that they planned it all along.
 
2013-09-18 04:55:47 PM  

Trivia Jockey: You mean like insurance exchanges?


No, I meant by being allowed to sell across state lines, as I mentioned in the same post, but I was probably unclear.  Sorry.
 
2013-09-18 04:58:09 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Generation_D: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Lucky LaRue: mediablitz: Offer the same thing. Call it something different. Claim victory.

The sad thing is that all the liberals would immediately start screaming about how bad the bill was for the country.

Yeah. Okay. Because liberals haven't been saying this bill is crappy, but better than the sh*t sandwich we had before already.

Are you pretending conservatives aren't screaming non-stop about AHA now? All while supporting when not called "Obamacare"? Supporting it when you go issue by issue?

I'll stick with what HAS happened. You can live by what you believe WILL happen.

Thanks for proving my point.

It isn't what's good or bad for the country that people like you (and your counterparts on the far right) care about.  It's about standing in direct opposition to anything the other side proposes.

The bill was passed and is now law. Anyone going against that is probably doing so because they have an obstructionist goal, and would fark the country rather than do what is right.

A Republican, in other words.

This is just the kind of clap-trap I am talking about.  In your world-view, anyone opposed to your agenda is an obstructionist who would rather f*ck the country than do what is right.  In the tea-baggers world-view, anyone opposed to their agenda is an unpatriotic socialist who would rather f*ck the country than stand up for freedom.

Both world views make for great entertainment, but are pretty f*cking ridiculous when it comes to governance.


You're making a complete ass of yourself. You're argueing against no one, and painting everybody in a broad brush. How can you consider yourself rational or reasonable when you can't even make a point? It's people like you who are the problem with this country.

I get it, both sides are bad, so vote republican. I getcha.
 
2013-09-18 05:00:44 PM  
I find it interesting that I could not find a single thread about this new Republican alternative on Freerepublic. I guess they haven't been told how they feel about it yet, so can't post a story about it.
 
2013-09-18 05:03:45 PM  

Dedmon: You're making a complete ass of yourself. You're argueing against no one, and painting everybody in a broad brush. How can you consider yourself rational or reasonable when you can't even make a point? It's people like you who are the problem with this country.

I get it, both sides are bad, so vote republican. I getcha.


My god, you don't know how much I hate this trope.  If we are going to look at the political spectrum through your black-and-white filters, then, Yes. Absolutely.  Both extremes are bad.  They are f*cking horrible.

In the real world, though, there aren't just teahadist and herbal teabaggers flinging shiat back and forth at each other.  In the real world, rational, educated people see the nuances of political theory and work together to get shiat done.

But, go on with your bad self and tell me how you are right and the conservatives are all bad men and women who don't care about the poor, uneducated, and hungry, asshole.
 
2013-09-18 05:03:51 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Trivia Jockey: You mean like insurance exchanges?

No, I meant by being allowed to sell across state lines, as I mentioned in the same post, but I was probably unclear.  Sorry.


I was making a joke.
 
2013-09-18 05:06:00 PM  

Flab: Why would you deny a company from offering health insurance as part of their benefits in order to attract employees?


I wouldn't. Employers can still offer a great plans as an incentive. The "trick" is that an employee can keep that plan at the same price when they leave employment. No COBRA shiat, nio getting gouged on the individual plan market - just the same person paying the same insurance for the same coverage. It is utter nonsense that an Insurance providers "risk" for health coverage changes because the name on their insured's paycheck changes.

If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.

Flab: In the medium term, this will cause most insurance companies to stop doing business from the more regulated states and only offer policies that come from the states with the less regulations.


Someone will fill that gap. And the multi-state ones will have to offer plans that meet standard requirements across multiple states. Also note that I don't mean they must be precisely the same, but that they should be comparable, so there is some wiggle room for state variation in regulation.

Flab: How can you prevent to private companies from entering into a business deal that is mutually beneficial to both of them?


They are free to do so. But they must offer the same price to the end user cash payer as they do the insurance companies. This is largely a moot point because few people pay cash for any treatment of any significance. What we want to avoid is the "$42k for heart surgery, except we really mean $14K once insurance negotiates the price, and it's only $12K if it's Medicare/medicaid". It should be the "real price" regardless of who's paying the bill.

Flab: I'm sure there are cases where it's overly complex to discourage Joe Q. Public from reading the fine print, but in general, there are good reasons why they are written that way. The solution you are recommending would also require heavy legislation to make sure that the insurers comply.


Sure. But I think we can do something like we did for the Credit Card industry. It doesn't have to be written so Honey Boo Boo's mom can grasp it, but I read these things, and even my attorney is scratching his head sometimes. This is doable without "heavy legislation". (And of course, States could do it themselves right now anyway. Some do).

Flab: What would that accomplish? You can't really ask the ambulance to turn around because the price list is too high.


Market pressure. The overwhelming majority of medical costs are not ambulances, (though since you mention it, that is an area rife with problems because people get overcharged after the fact). But if I need my bloodwork done, And Quest wants $175 to run the tests, and Kelsey Seibold want $135, then I'll go to Kelsey. And eventually Quest will meet market price pressures. And since the insured themselves need t be exposed to the actual costs of the care. Believe me, if they see that the Gloriana hospitals are charging $2,000 for an X-ray and blowing the entire year's deductible, but City Central system is charging $750, then City Central will get more business and Gloriana will have to compete.

The point here was to illustrate that it IS possible to have market pressures in a modern healthcare system. After all, we had them up until the 1970s when Nixon passed the HMO bill, and they have been climbing radically ever since.
 
2013-09-18 05:06:25 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Thrag: Lucky LaRue: cameroncrazy1984: Lucky LaRue: If you are saying now that you were wrong and would like to change your argument to "disagreeing with 100% of Republican ideas", then I am more than happy to accept your concession

How is that a variation of "if a Republican is for it then I'm against it"?

It's demonstrably not the same thing.

When you start being intentionally duplicitous with your own words, then there is no way you can expect people to take you seriously.

And that's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's good you understand that.

Thrag - the next time there's an politics argument, I'll make sure to invite you early enough to participate.  This time, though, you came in too late in the conversation, and I just don't care what your opinion is.


Lucky, you aren't having a political argument. You are masturbating in public and people are mocking you for it.
 
2013-09-18 05:08:46 PM  

Lucky LaRue: InmanRoshi: Lucky LaRue: Solid Muldoon: Republican Plan: If we just stop feeding old people and giving them medicine, they'll die off. Social Security and Health Care saved! It's a win/win!

I'm curious.. do you really believe the Republicans want to kill off America's elderly?

It would be hard to conclude otherwise when they literally stand and cheer hypoteheticals about letting  uninsured die at the Republican Presidential debates.

As I said elsewhere, those cheering would be the bat-shiat insane extreme right.  Those are the very people, coincidentally, I am suggesting the extreme left so markedly resemble in behavior and attitude.


And not a single candidate on the stage called them on it.
 
2013-09-18 05:09:22 PM  

Thrag: Do you even know what the fark you are on about?


Dude. No one was even talking to you or about you. This is an AB conversation, etc...Let the bone go, Wilma.
 
2013-09-18 05:12:57 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Thrag: Do you even know what the fark you are on about?

Dude. No one was even talking to you or about you. This is an AB conversation, etc...Let the bone go, Wilma.


Wait, so when you quoted my posted and addressed me directly, you weren't talking to or about me? Fascinating.

The only bone here is the one in your mouth.
 
2013-09-18 05:14:04 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Trivia Jockey: You mean like insurance exchanges?

No, I meant by being allowed to sell across state lines, as I mentioned in the same post, but I was probably unclear.  Sorry.


How will that lower costs?  Considering it's the same 5 or 6 big names that have subsidiaries in most the states,  For example, United Health of New York will not compete against United Health of Delaware.  United Health Group LLC, will simply close all its subsidiaries and start offering policies out of Delaware or North Dakota, or American Samoa, wherever the law is more lenient.

This cost saving initiative will not be reflected in lower prices to the customer, but in increased earnings per share for the shareholders.
 
2013-09-18 05:16:09 PM  

Lucky LaRue: conservatives are all bad men and women who don't care about the poor, uneducated, and hungry.


Empirical observation holds the above to be true.
 
2013-09-18 05:18:12 PM  

Solid Muldoon: And not a single candidate on the stage called them on it.


Both sides are bad as demonstrated by the empirical evidence of the Democrats not having someone yell something like "Let the uninsured die" and not having any Democratic candidates call them out either.

Study it out.
 
2013-09-18 05:24:27 PM  

phenn: - It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage


- How?
- In this case, a little oversight is a good thing
- Not sure on that, you might be correct
- How?
- Can't be any worse than the current system
 
2013-09-18 05:27:31 PM  

jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue: conservatives are all bad men and women who don't care about the poor, uneducated, and hungry.

Empirical observation holds the above to be true.


I feel bad for you if you believe this to be true.  If you need examples of where this kind of good-vs-evil dichotomy lead, just look to the evangelical Christians in this country and what harm they've caused, because you are just the other side of that coin.
 
2013-09-18 05:27:55 PM  

freak7: phenn: - It played out like a premium grab
- It's going to be difficult on self-employed people
- Added a layer of bureaucracy to the mix
- Doesn't address cost of care issues
- Intrudes on Doctor/Patient relationships
- Going to be a fustercluck to manage

- How?
- In this case, a little oversight is a good thing
- Not sure on that, you might be correct
- How?
- Can't be any worse than the current system


I actually answered same up thread a bit. It might have gotten buried with all the cawk waving going on in here.  ;-)
 
2013-09-18 05:28:41 PM  

Thrag: Wait, so when you quoted my posted and addressed me directly, you weren't talking to or about me?


I posted to Lucky LaRue regarding Cameron1984. You saw fit to jump in on a conversation that did not involve or relate to you, which is certainly fine, but at this point you are just being a boor. I acknowledged your comment, as is polite, and that should be the end of it. But I am certain you have more to say. Since you are being a boor.

In 5...4...3...
 
2013-09-18 05:31:05 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: The "trick" is that an employee can keep that plan at the same price when they leave employment. No COBRA shiat, nio getting gouged on the individual plan market


So the former employer is permanently on the hook for the insurance?
 
2013-09-18 05:32:37 PM  

Lucky LaRue: jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue: conservatives are all bad men and women who don't care about the poor, uneducated, and hungry.

Empirical observation holds the above to be true.

I feel bad for you if you believe this to be true.  If you need examples of where this kind of good-vs-evil dichotomy lead, just look to the evangelical Christians in this country and what harm they've caused, because you are just the other side of that coin.


I feel bad for you if you have an inability to judge the differences in outcome between competing governmental philosophies. I'm sorry you believe that equality of outcome and effect is demonstrated via a "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.

But I understand that you arrived at your belief empirically, so it cannot be argued against. Both sides are equal because of your empirical studies.
 
2013-09-18 05:38:25 PM  
Were a I less-empirical man, I'd be tempted to say that it's almost as if "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is some kind of good-vs-evil dichotomy that leads to damaging the country like the evangelical Christians.

Thankfully, I'm empirical enough to label both sides as equal without judging the outcomes of both sides. Definitional equality is the best equality.
 
2013-09-18 05:38:50 PM  

Witty_Retort: So the former employer is permanently on the hook for the insurance?


uhh. no. See, you just have to read the part right after the part you excerpted:

BojanglesPaladin: The "trick" is that an employee can keep that plan at the same price when they leave employment. No COBRA shiat, nio getting gouged on the individual plan market - just the same person paying the same insurance for the same coverage. It is utter nonsense that an Insurance providers "risk" for health coverage changes because the name on their insured's paycheck changes.

If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.

 
2013-09-18 05:41:00 PM  

jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue: jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue: conservatives are all bad men and women who don't care about the poor, uneducated, and hungry.

Empirical observation holds the above to be true.

I feel bad for you if you believe this to be true.  If you need examples of where this kind of good-vs-evil dichotomy lead, just look to the evangelical Christians in this country and what harm they've caused, because you are just the other side of that coin.

I feel bad for you if you have an inability to judge the differences in outcome between competing governmental philosophies. I'm sorry you believe that equality of outcome and effect is demonstrated via a "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.

But I understand that you arrived at your belief empirically, so it cannot be argued against. Both sides are equal because of your empirical studies.


You are the second person today to treat "empirical" like some sort of magical talisman.  Are you sure you understand its meaning?

As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.
 
2013-09-18 05:44:09 PM  

Lucky LaRue: As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.


Get a clue! it's only a Radical binary poiltico worldview when the OTHER team does it!
 
2013-09-18 05:44:25 PM  

jgbrowning: Were a I less-empirical man, I'd be tempted to say that it's almost as if "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is some kind of good-vs-evil dichotomy that leads to damaging the country like the evangelical Christians.

Thankfully, I'm empirical enough to label both sides as equal without judging the outcomes of both sides. Definitional equality is the best equality.


Oh.  I see, now.  I hurt your feelings by comparing your patterns of belief to those of the evangelicals, didn't I?  Well, I am sure if you study it out, you'll see the correlations.  Don't take it so hard, though.  You have been brought up in a society steeped with that kind of thinking; it's only natural that you adopt some of it to form your own world view.
 
2013-09-18 05:45:40 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.

Get a clue! it's only a Radical binary poiltico worldview when the OTHER team does it!


Thanks for helping me today!  It was fun (and a little brutal), but I have to go home and be retarded there for a while, now... :)
 
2013-09-18 05:45:51 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.


But what if the next job has crappy insurance and the first company I worked for had a great plan that they subsidized heavily?
That was my question: will they have to subsidize for all eternity if they are dumb enough to offer good services for a good price?

What if insurance companies collude like oil companies, phone companies and airlines and just refuse to compete*. If they agree to totally ignore market pressures, it has no effect.

*I know they technically don't, they just happen to charge the same.
 
2013-09-18 05:46:57 PM  

phenn: I actually answered same up thread a bit. It might have gotten buried with all the cawk waving going on in here.  ;-)


The one I'm really curious about is your claim that it's going to hurt self employed people. They'll have access to health care plans at the same price as any other person would pay through an exchange. If they choose not to carry insurance, they'll pay the same penalty as anybody else would. How are they going to suffer?
 
2013-09-18 05:47:01 PM  

Lucky LaRue: You are the second person today to treat "empirical" like some sort of magical talisman.  Are you sure you understand its meaning?

As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.


I'm glad to see you're addressing my language choice now, we're getting to the heart of the matter. I do understand its meaning. Precisely understand it.

I'm also glad to see you understand that things rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy as evangelicals adhere too results in exactly the same outcomes when implemented. I feel that you really do understand that "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is the same good-vs-evil philosophy since you're willing to make that comparison.

I feel like we're accomplishing a lot with this discussion.
 
2013-09-18 05:48:57 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Oh.  I see, now.  I hurt your feelings by comparing your patterns of belief to those of the evangelicals, didn't I?  Well, I am sure if you study it out, you'll see the correlations.  Don't take it so hard, though.  You have been brought up in a society steeped with that kind of thinking; it's only natural that you adopt some of it to form your own world view.


Oh no, no, no, please don't get the wrong impression. You didn't hurt my feelings at all. I'm just gladdened that you understand how the two "two-sides-of-the-same-coin" metaphors work as precisely equal to each other because they're definitional defined to work that way.

Like I said earlier, I'm glad we're talking about this and that you're seeing new things.
 
2013-09-18 05:52:54 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.

Get a clue! it's only a Radical binary poiltico worldview when the OTHER team does it!


Don't be so harsh on him. Like he said to me, he's been brought up in a society steeped with that kind of thinking; it's only natural that he adopts some of it to form his own world view.

He can't help that "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is the same good-vs-evil philosophy he's trying to fight against.

I think if just keep talking he'll see that and he'll come around to judging governmental philosophies by their outcomes instead of via pecuniary metaphors.
 
2013-09-18 06:01:09 PM  

freak7: phenn: I actually answered same up thread a bit. It might have gotten buried with all the cawk waving going on in here.  ;-)

The one I'm really curious about is your claim that it's going to hurt self employed people. They'll have access to health care plans at the same price as any other person would pay through an exchange. If they choose not to carry insurance, they'll pay the same penalty as anybody else would. How are they going to suffer?


Suffer is a strong word. My thought is that it would be difficult on them.

So, we checked out the premium calculator online and it would be quite dear for my husband and myself. Both of us are self-employed. I also mentioned that, because of the mandate, we would be fined if we didn't participate and chose to do something else - such as self-insuring or concierge care.

When I talked about that in a previous thread, a lot of responses were that the premiums didn't seem that high. Ours would have been close to 20% of our total income and I just don't see that as being affordable.

Hubs and I have some small advantages in that we aren't in hock up to our eyeballs, no car payments, credit card debt, etc. But, the average family has those expenses to deal with and 20% of total income could be rather hefty to swing.

The calculator was published by the Kaiser Foundation and you can check it out here.
 
2013-09-18 06:10:22 PM  

Trivia Jockey: I was making a joke.


I tend to work and Fark and sometimes that's not a good combination for getting the humor.    mea culpa.

Flab: How will that lower costs?


It doesn't, but Steve Scalise is proposing that it would.
 
2013-09-18 06:10:38 PM  

Witty_Retort: But what if the next job has crappy insurance and the first company I worked for had a great plan that they subsidized heavily?


Your question suggests that you may not have a deep understanding of that 'subsidy', It's just splitting who pays the bill. I don't know how well you understand the system, or if you have been through a couple of these but now, You get what they gives ya.

Today:
Let's say AwesomeInc has a great plan and they subsidize 100% of the $485/month they pay for your awesome insurance. You pay not a penny. But you leave and take a job at MehCo where they subsidize 50% of the $385/month they pay for your mediocre insurance. Now you pay $192.50 more a month, and the insurance is not as good (higher deductible, higher copays, smaller network, etc).

You have no choice. Your awesome insurance is only available to AwesomeInc employees and you ain't one anymore. You get what your employer offers. Or you go get individual insurance and get ass-raped for lousy coverage. God help you if you are a woman and want maternity or anything.

After the Magic Wand:

(Allowing for a minimum time like 6 months or a year of employment before the plan is portable)


If you want you can keep the awesome insurance, and you pay exactly what AwesomeInc was paying for it. ($485/month). The insurance gets paid exactly the same for providing exactly the same insurance to exactly the same person at exactly the same risk.

Now you might say $485 a month? No way! Maybe you can get MehCo to pay you that $192 on your salary instead of subsidizing your insurance, so now it's only $293 a month )and only $100 a month more than MehCo's plan. Maybe not. Maybe you just decide to take Gimme MehCo's cheaper but crappier insurance, since you never get sick and you want the money more. Your call. But once you let go of the awesome plan, it's gone. But you can keep the mediocre plan, even if you go somewhere else.

Three years later you take a job with AmazeBros. and their plan is super awesome. It covers everything from Lasik to liposuction with full visual and dental and a $10 copay with a $500 deductible. And the company pays 100% of the $200/month. That's a p-lan that you would keep, and the insurance companies will want to be offering THAT plan, because that plan will get the keepers, and the crappier plans will get left in the dust.

Market pressures! The Aristocrats!
 
2013-09-18 06:13:32 PM  

Witty_Retort: BojanglesPaladin: If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.

But what if the next job has crappy insurance and the first company I worked for had a great plan that they subsidized heavily?
That was my question: will they have to subsidize for all eternity if they are dumb enough to offer good services for a good price?

What if insurance companies collude like oil companies, phone companies and airlines and just refuse to compete*. If they agree to totally ignore market pressures, it has no effect.

*I know they technically don't, they just happen to charge the same.


The other problem is that the rate the former employer is paying for the insurance they originally got from that employer is based on the underwriting for that group of employees. Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people... a group of people that almost certainly will not have the same plan. To keep the plan they had under their former employers group plan, they will need to forever be tied to that former employer. I can't see that kind of arrangement flying for employers OR insurance companies.
 
2013-09-18 06:14:19 PM  

jgbrowning: Don't be so harsh on him.


You may not have noticed the tongue firmly in cheek there.
 
2013-09-18 06:17:05 PM  

theknuckler_33: Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people


Why?

The person STAYS in that same group. That person is the exact same person, with the exact same risk as they were 24 hours before. The ONLY thing that changes is who is making the payment to the Insurance company. They STAY in the SAME PLAN and the SAME RISK POOL.

Employment is an arbitrary and absurd differentiator for health insurance and a change in employment should have no bearing at all.
 
2013-09-18 06:18:04 PM  

jgbrowning: BojanglesPaladin: Lucky LaRue: As for the "two-sides of the same coin" metaphor.. well, since your ideology is rooted in the same good-vs-evil philosophy that the evangelicals adhere so tightly too, it really isn't that huge a leap to draw that particular comparison.

Get a clue! it's only a Radical binary poiltico worldview when the OTHER team does it!

Don't be so harsh on him. Like he said to me, he's been brought up in a society steeped with that kind of thinking; it's only natural that he adopts some of it to form his own world view.

He can't help that "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is the same good-vs-evil philosophy he's trying to fight against.

I think if just keep talking he'll see that and he'll come around to judging governmental philosophies by their outcomes instead of via pecuniary metaphors.


Now I am almost positive you don't have a clue what you are talking about, man. Keep nursing your wounded ego, though, and you'll get through the confusion.
 
2013-09-18 06:22:59 PM  
It looks like they released an actual bill this time, not just some vague circles and arrows.

The bill
 
2013-09-18 06:23:21 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people

Why?

The person STAYS in that same group. That person is the exact same person, with the exact same risk as they were 24 hours before. The ONLY thing that changes is who is making the payment to the Insurance company. They STAY in the SAME PLAN and the SAME RISK POOL.

Employment is an arbitrary and absurd differentiator for health insurance and a change in employment should have no bearing at all.


Well, you do realize that employers plans/rates are only good for one year. They have to renegotiate them every single year because, you know, the employers change over time. They might get older or younger overall, healthier or sicker. For this reason alone, it will be impossible for the former employee to keep his 'old' plan because the employer might drop that at the next annual open enrollment when they renegotiate their rates/plan with the insurance company. The insurance company will certainly not allow a former employer keep a plan that is no longer in existence and I highly doubt employers want their group demographics to effected by people that no longer work for them anymore.
 
2013-09-18 06:25:18 PM  

theknuckler_33: BojanglesPaladin: theknuckler_33: Once he leaves the group, his rate has to be based on some other group of people

Why?

The person STAYS in that same group. That person is the exact same person, with the exact same risk as they were 24 hours before. The ONLY thing that changes is who is making the payment to the Insurance company. They STAY in the SAME PLAN and the SAME RISK POOL.

Employment is an arbitrary and absurd differentiator for health insurance and a change in employment should have no bearing at all.

Well, you do realize that employers plans/rates are only good for one year. They have to renegotiate them every single year because, you know, the employers employEEs change over time. They might get older or younger overall, healthier or sicker. For this reason alone, it will be impossible for the former employee to keep his 'old' plan because the employer might drop that at the next annual open enrollment when they renegotiate their rates/plan with the insurance company. The insurance company will certainly not allow a former employer keep a plan that is no longer in existence and I highly doubt employers want their group demographics to effected by people that no longer work for them anymore.


FTFM
 
2013-09-18 06:25:41 PM  

jgbrowning: Lucky LaRue: Oh.  I see, now.  I hurt your feelings by comparing your patterns of belief to those of the evangelicals, didn't I?  Well, I am sure if you study it out, you'll see the correlations.  Don't take it so hard, though.  You have been brought up in a society steeped with that kind of thinking; it's only natural that you adopt some of it to form your own world view.

Oh no, no, no, please don't get the wrong impression. You didn't hurt my feelings at all. I'm just gladdened that you understand how the two "two-sides-of-the-same-coin" metaphors work as precisely equal to each other because they're definitional defined to work that way.

Like I said earlier, I'm glad we're talking about this and that you're seeing new things.


I am sorry, you were just about to reach your triumphant conclusion that your empirical observations that all republicans want to kill the poor and the elderly could not possibly be refuted by men of reason when I so rudely interrupted to observe how similar your thinking is to evangelical Christians.

Do go on.
 
2013-09-18 06:25:49 PM  

theknuckler_33: To keep the plan they had under their former employers group plan, they will need to forever be tied to that former employer.


I think the missed some of the preceding conversation about what we are actually discussing. (Or you are fuzzy about how employer subsidies work). Here is the prior steps in the discussion:

BojanglesPaladin: 1) Detach Health insurance from employment and allow insurance plans with the same provider to be carried across state lines.

BojanglesPaladin: Employers can still offer a great plans as an incentive. The "trick" is that an employee can keep that plan at the same price when they leave employment. No COBRA shiat, nio getting gouged on the individual plan market - just the same person paying the same insurance for the same coverage. It is utter nonsense that an Insurance providers "risk" for health coverage changes because the name on their insured's paycheck changes.

If the next job has a better plan, then they can switch to that one, or keep the one they have. This way, Insurance companies lose that "group lock" that ties the actual consumer to a plan and a price point they have no control or say over. And when the INDIVIDUALS can decide which plan they want... market pressure.



So.. Yeah... That is the exact thing that needs to be fixed. Employment and Insurance should not be tied together like they are. And the easiest way to do that is to say that people can take it with them. (After a suitable eligibility period, of course).
 
2013-09-18 06:26:22 PM  

Thrag: It looks like they released an actual bill this time, not just some vague circles and arrows.

The bill


They actually used the word 'ObamaCare' in the titles? *smashes head on desk*

Thanks for the link. I'll take a looky-loo.
 
2013-09-18 06:27:31 PM  

phenn: freak7: phenn: I actually answered same up thread a bit. It might have gotten buried with all the cawk waving going on in here.  ;-)

The one I'm really curious about is your claim that it's going to hurt self employed people. They'll have access to health care plans at the same price as any other person would pay through an exchange. If they choose not to carry insurance, they'll pay the same penalty as anybody else would. How are they going to suffer?

Suffer is a strong word. My thought is that it would be difficult on them.

So, we checked out the premium calculator online and it would be quite dear for my husband and myself. Both of us are self-employed. I also mentioned that, because of the mandate, we would be fined if we didn't participate and chose to do something else - such as self-insuring or concierge care.

When I talked about that in a previous thread, a lot of responses were that the premiums didn't seem that high. Ours would have been close to 20% of our total income and I just don't see that as being affordable.

Hubs and I have some small advantages in that we aren't in hock up to our eyeballs, no car payments, credit card debt, etc. But, the average family has those expenses to deal with and 20% of total income could be rather hefty to swing.

The calculator was published by the Kaiser Foundation and you can check it out here.


Right, but you're not being treated any differently than anybody else. You're at a bit of a disadvantage because there's no employer insurance available, but the rules aren't being applied to you any differently than anybody else.
 
2013-09-18 06:31:51 PM  

freak7: Right, but you're not being treated any differently than anybody else. You're at a bit of a disadvantage because there's no employer insurance available, but the rules aren't being applied to you any differently than anybody else.


I understand that. No one is intentionally out to get the self employed. However, it does create some new issues for them.
 
2013-09-18 06:35:30 PM  

phenn: freak7: Right, but you're not being treated any differently than anybody else. You're at a bit of a disadvantage because there's no employer insurance available, but the rules aren't being applied to you any differently than anybody else.

I understand that. No one is intentionally out to get the self employed. However, it does create some new issues for them.


It creates an issue for anybody that would rather go without insurance.
 
2013-09-18 06:37:22 PM  

Lucky LaRue: Now I am almost positive you don't have a clue what you are talking about, man. Keep nursing your wounded ego, though, and you'll get through the confusion.


I do admit that I'm a bit confused as to why you think I'm upset or wounded. I assure you that I know you don't intend to hurt my feelings and that I'm feeling good on this breezy afternoon.

I think that as long as we can keep talking, I won't be confused about that forever. What I'm talking about is how you're finally agreeing with the fact that both "both-sides-of-extremism-are-bad" and "the moderate middle is good" is the same good-vs-evil philosophy that you're trying to fight against because they're both sides of the same coin. The metaphor allows me to focus on the important part (the part where I've defined them as equally bad because they're oppositional binary belief systems according to how the metaphor works).

Thankfully, no one is arguing that I'm wrong. Because that would just prove my point even more! But look at me, preaching to the choir a bit here: you already know that those who argue against your empirical points just make your points even more right because that's how the argument has been metaphored. Even when they don't know it.