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(Talking Points Memo)   You're telling me that a Navy contractor, experiencing mental issues, had a legally bought firearm and went on a rampage on a military base *may* have slipped through the cracks?   (talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Navy Yard, Seattle, Seattle Police, preliminary hearing, navies, firearms  
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653 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2013 at 7:41 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 07:45:09 AM  
Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?

That being said, I WANT TO TAKE YOUR GUNS, MELT THEM DOWN, AND CAST THE METAL INTO A GIANT STATUE OF HITLER!
 
2013-09-18 07:47:31 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?


I heard, at least in this case, that the background checks on contractors are done BY contractors.
 
2013-09-18 07:47:39 AM  
The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.
 
2013-09-18 07:48:26 AM  
images.wikia.com
 
2013-09-18 07:49:23 AM  
Also this headline is on the page...
North Carolina Soldier And Wife Charged With Making Dog Porn  WTF?
 
2013-09-18 07:50:05 AM  
He showed signs, he wasn't diagnosed yet.  So legally, yes, he can still buy firearms.
 
2013-09-18 07:50:10 AM  

Alphax: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?

I heard, at least in this case, that the background checks on contractors are done BY contractors.


That's because the federal government is inept. Obviously, private companies can do it better and cheaper.
 
2013-09-18 07:50:24 AM  

manimal2878: Also this headline is on the page...
North Carolina Soldier And Wife Charged With Making Dog Porn  WTF?


I thought this was a free country.
 
2013-09-18 07:51:01 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?


Knowing what I do about construction workers, it would basically be impossible to staff a job of any decent size if they all had to have records squeaky-clean enough to get military security clearances. Everybody has at least SOME skeletons in their closet...


But to add my contribution to the gun debate wharrgarbl: Maybe if the gun-nuts weren't so focused on prying open those cracks the system would catch more loons.
=Smidge=
 
2013-09-18 07:51:59 AM  

manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.


They always go for the noob cannon. You'd think the Navy would have one guy with a railgun and an aimbot but no...

/too soon?
 
2013-09-18 07:53:15 AM  
That's not senseless mass murder, boy! That's LIBERTY!!!!!
 
2013-09-18 07:54:33 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?


It took about 6 months for me to get my low level clearance, until that time I was basically just getting paid to read and do busy work. I had no access to any USGIS and, therefore, I could not visit Fark.com.

/trick or treat?
 
2013-09-18 07:54:49 AM  
We should have a national database of arrests involving firearms.  If you're arrested for an offense related to illegal use of a gun, your name goes into the database immediately.  Whenever you go to purchase a firearm in the future, whether from a private or commercial seller, it should be required that they check that database.

While a felony conviction immediately invalidates your ability to purchase a gun, if it shows that you've been arrested for firearm related crimes but not convicted, it should flag your application to purchase, and force a review by a judge who can look into the case and determine if it should be approved immediately, or if a psychiatric review needs to be performed first to make sure that you're stable enough to own a firearm.
 
2013-09-18 07:56:55 AM  

SithLord: He showed signs, he wasn't diagnosed yet.  So legally, yes, he can still buy firearms.




www.stevedennie.com

LOL exactly! The only solution for a mentally ill good guy with a gun that decides to become a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun that may one day become a mentally ill good guy with a gun with the potential to become a bad guy with a gun. BANG BANG

 
2013-09-18 07:58:14 AM  
But if I don't carry my daddy issues on my hip then how will people believe my bullshiat story when I stop a mass shooting like Nick Meli.
 
2013-09-18 08:03:29 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: manimal2878: Also this headline is on the page...
North Carolina Soldier And Wife Charged With Making Dog Porn  WTF?

I thought this was a free country.


First, they came for the guns, and I did not speak out, because I was not a gun.  Then they came for the dog porn...
 
2013-09-18 08:03:38 AM  
I work for a top secret government agency and we have developed within a supercomputer and algorithm that can take such variables as statistics about the actor, times, places, heights, weight, etc., and the known facts of the route taken by the actor and all the other data and feed it into the program and create an audio file of what was going through his mind at the time of the crime.  It's highly sophisticated and fairly accurate.
 
2013-09-18 08:04:24 AM  
We replayed the sound file through a vintage Sansui amplifier to filter out unwanted noises and reduce any clicks and pops, then ran it through a mix of Marantz and Audiovox speakers (Wolverines) in order to ensure the fidelity of the sound files in their pure, analog format.
 
2013-09-18 08:11:40 AM  
Or maybe shiat just happens.
 
2013-09-18 08:22:09 AM  

vudukungfu: We replayed the sound file through a vintage Sansui amplifier to filter out unwanted noises and reduce any clicks and pops, then ran it through a mix of Marantz and Audiovox speakers (Wolverines) in order to ensure the fidelity of the sound files in their pure, analog format.


Is that program you were talking about called "zapper-rooter"?

Anyway, as much as I dislike helping the local gun nuts, since they tend to be assholes, this is an indictment of the mental health care of this country, not guns.  Yes he went on a shooting rampage, because he was disturbed and not very smart.  Had he been denied guns or been a little smarter he would have started fires and probably killed more people.

Honestly, that's one thing that's always baffled me, terrorists would get a lot more targets with fires than with bombs and buildings instead of planes.

But I should just thank my lucky stars they're dumb, I suppose.
 
2013-09-18 08:25:44 AM  

TheBigJerk: Honestly, that's one thing that's always baffled me, terrorists would get a lot more targets with fires than with bombs and buildings instead of planes.


Oh I don't know, the combination of buildings and planes seems to have been pretty effective.
 
2013-09-18 08:34:34 AM  
Shocking.
 
2013-09-18 08:43:44 AM  

TheBigJerk: Is that program you were talking about called "zapper-rooter"?



*clicks play*

"SPROING! Coo COO coo COO coo COO! Udayuddaudda yudda. Boiyoinyouingyoingyoing. Quack-quack OWEeeeeeeeeeeoooooo. Coo COO coo COO coo COO"

/And that is where the tape ends, gentlemen
 
2013-09-18 08:48:46 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I WANT TO TAKE YOUR GUNS, MELT THEM DOWN, AND CAST THE METAL INTO A GIANT STATUE OF HITLER!


Hitler and Stalin having Gay Sex on an American Flag bedspread
 
2013-09-18 08:52:47 AM  

Alphax: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Instead of the traditional gun whargarrbl, can we have a discussion on the serious flaws in civilian contracting for the military - like how they pass out low level clearances like Halloween candy?

I heard, at least in this case, that the background checks on contractors are done BY contractors.


As was Snowden's, don't know about Manning's.


So if I have this correctly and to sum up:

1) He had multiple work related background checks

2) Had a security clearance (despite a criminal record and mental issues)

3) He was armed with VP BIden's weapon of choice-a shotgun (purchased legally and going through yet another background check, non-contractor in this case, despite a criminal record)
 
2013-09-18 08:57:40 AM  
FTFA:After he was read his rights, the report said Alexis "confessed to the crime of discharging his weapon for the purpose of shooting out the tires on the car." Police said Alexis told officers the owner of the car had "mocked" and "disrespected" him, leading to "what Alexis described as a 'black-out' fueled by anger."

Im as strongly supportive of the 2nd amendment as any farker but if the above is true it should be enough to bar anyone from owning a gun for life.
 
2013-09-18 09:02:50 AM  

manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun that has never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.


Its not a point anyone on the gun-ban side cares about.

The fact that everyone passed the buck on this guy means he could sail through any number of background checks, bag searches, or firearm design restrictions. He could walk into a gun store or a gun free zone easily because enforcement of the law is selective at best.
When we talk about the failure of written law to provide for security, this is what it looks like.

/That doesn't stop the demand for another law, of course.
/Laws are political victories.
/Obama ordered up two more bans just prior to this.
 
2013-09-18 09:03:32 AM  
It's funny, if this crazed psychopath had a copy of the U.S. Constitution on his person, Farklibs would be in a frenzy painting the NRA and all Teabaggers as dangerous killers.

But, since the Navy Yard Murderer was known to be vocal supporter Obama and member of the democrat party... crickets.
 
2013-09-18 09:05:36 AM  

Aristocles: But, since the Navy Yard Murderer was known to be vocal supporter Obama and member of the democrat party... crickets.


actually we're more of the "what the hell? WHY DOES OUR MENTAL HEALTH CARE SUCK?" variety
 
2013-09-18 09:13:21 AM  

somedude210: Aristocles: But, since the Navy Yard Murderer was known to be vocal supporter Obama and member of the democrat party... crickets.

actually we're more of the "what the hell? WHY DOES OUR MENTAL HEALTH CARE SUCK?" variety


So, IOKIYAD?

If this guy was a Republican, y'alled be in an uproar about the conservative teatardist ideology.
 
2013-09-18 09:21:08 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Or maybe shiat just happens.


Or maybe when he reported to the RI police that he was hearing voices and displaying signs of schizo paranoia and they reported this to the Navy someone should have suspended his privileges while they investigated.
 
2013-09-18 09:21:15 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I WANT TO TAKE YOUR GUNS, MELT THEM DOWN, AND CAST THE METAL INTO A GIANT STATUE OF HITLER!

Hitler and Stalin having Gay Sex on an American Flag bedspread


The real artistic challenge is how to communicate that they're using aborted fetus stem cells and eagle tears for lube without having it completely dominate the aesthetics of the piece.
 
2013-09-18 09:24:34 AM  

way south: manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun that has never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.

Its not a point anyone on the gun-ban side cares about.

The fact that everyone passed the buck on this guy means he could sail through any number of background checks, bag searches, or firearm design restrictions. He could walk into a gun store or a gun free zone easily because enforcement of the law is selective at best.
When we talk about the failure of written law to provide for security, this is what it looks like.


I believe that Mr. Alexis's actions are a consequence of a failure to "enforce the laws already on the books", which is a common cause of advocacy by those who oppose new firearm bans. However, I have also been informed that the National Rifle Association has "blocked" enforcement of existing laws (I therefore await data regarding their involvement in the failure to enforce laws violated by Mr. Alexis prior to his acts of murder) and that enforcing existing laws is too cumbersome and thus that new laws are needed.
 
2013-09-18 09:24:38 AM  
Use to work for an EPA contractor. Just being employed I had to go through a series of background checks. That said, our sub-contractors didn't. Which lead to a hilarious incident where we took a pair of non-citizens onto Camp Pendleton when we had ordnance to explode. Yeah, there were lots of angry phone calls about that one. So at least the Marines take security seriously.

/CSB
 
2013-09-18 09:26:07 AM  

manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.


^^^^^THIS^^^^^

I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting, for a few reasons:

1. As you pointed out, this was a shotgun, not an "assault rifle", nor a handgun with a "high capacity magazine". A shotgun.

2. He tried to buy an assault rifle, but was unable to.

3. We are assured on here EVERY TIME THERE IS A GUN THREAD that NOBODY is proposing an outright ban on guns, so what's the current story? Are these same people suddenly proposing the outright ban on guns that they keep proposing and then lying about?

4. The weapons he used besides the shotgun are what he stole from the armed guard he killed. We are constantly told that it is "OK" for the cops and military to be armed because they are "trained" and will "keep us safe". With armed militarty and police, we are told that we "Don't NEED to worry about armed gunmen".
 
2013-09-18 09:26:21 AM  

Aristocles: If this guy was a Republican, y'alled be in an uproar about the conservative teatardist ideology.


possibly, we'd also be going on about how our mental health care in the country sucks to the point of letting these people get guns. I can see how you'd get them mixed up
 
2013-09-18 09:28:29 AM  

Aristocles: It's funny, if this crazed psychopath had a copy of the U.S. Constitution on his person, Farklibs would be in a frenzy painting the NRA and all Teabaggers as dangerous killers.

But, since the Navy Yard Murderer was known to be vocal supporter Obama and member of the democrat party... crickets.


Is this where you ignore what's actually happening in favor of the fantasy world inside your own head?

The guy was farking crazy and hearing voices. Most sane people look at that and think

a) why the fark are we selling guns to people who are actively seeking mental health care and calling the police because they hear voices
b) why the fark are we allowing people who have reported hearing voices in their head to the police onto military bases
 
2013-09-18 09:30:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.

They always go for the noob cannon. You'd think the Navy would have one guy with a railgun and an aimbot but no...

/too soon?


He had an AWP? Auto shottie is for newbs, too(Or me on a bad night), but pump shottie takes some skills, at least.
 
2013-09-18 09:30:41 AM  

Mikey1969: I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting


I'm not anti-gun but maybe selling firearms to people who have called the police because they are hearing voices and who are actively seeking mental health care might not be the best idea.
 
2013-09-18 09:34:53 AM  

Mikey1969: He had an AWP? Auto shottie is for newbs, too(Or me on a bad night), but pump shottie takes some skills, at least.


I'm showing my age. Pre CS, the shotgun was the noob cannon in Quake until it turned into nothing but aimbotters with the railgun.
 
2013-09-18 09:37:31 AM  
The process is broken, but you stupid f#cks won't budge an inch on fixing it, just so you can have your precious little toys.
Assholes. Eat a bullet.
 
2013-09-18 09:39:40 AM  

way south: Its not a point anyone on the gun-ban side cares about.


Only because it's inconvenient and doesn't fit the anti-gun narrative.
 
2013-09-18 09:40:13 AM  
Shouldn't we just require that all government contractors be armed at all times, so that they can take down bad guys?  I mean, if every government contractor always carried a shotgun, and a rifle, and two or three pistols, and several hundred rounds of ammunition, we could avoid tragedies like this, and also we'd have that many government insiders helping to protect us from the planned UN takeover.
 
2013-09-18 09:40:23 AM  

Mikey1969: manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting, for a few reasons:

1. As you pointed out, this was a shotgun, not an "assault rifle", nor a handgun with a "high capacity magazine". A shotgun.

2. He tried to buy an assault rifle, but was unable to.

3. We are assured on here EVERY TIME THERE IS A GUN THREAD that NOBODY is proposing an outright ban on guns, so what's the current story? Are these same people suddenly proposing the outright ban on guns that they keep proposing and then lying about?

4. The weapons he used besides the shotgun are what he stole from the armed guard he killed. We are constantly told that it is "OK" for the cops and military to be armed because they are "trained" and will "keep us safe". With armed militarty and police, we are told that we "Don't NEED to worry about armed gunmen".


No one has ever said that assault rifle and high capacity magazine bans will end all gun violence, nor even all mass shootings.  They may help lead to fewer deaths in mass shootings however.  A solution doesn't need to be 100% effective to be worth trying.

There were multiple failures that led to this shooting.  He had a record of criminal violations with firearms that were never followed up on or recorded properly in the system, he had a record of mental health issues that were unable to be checked, his background check was apparently poorly done if he was able to get clearance to be on the base in the first place, etc.

It's a tragedy, and we can look back at what went wrong to try to plug those particular holes so that we don't have the same issues again. This particular case is a strong argument for improving our background check process so that people like this don't fall through the cracks.
 
2013-09-18 09:41:37 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Mikey1969: I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting

I'm not anti-gun but maybe selling firearms to people who have called the police because they are hearing voices and who are actively seeking mental health care might not be the best idea.


Possibly not. That's why there's that line item on 4473. Course to get better use out of that we kind of need facilities and a budget to lock up people we feel are dangerous to society, like schizophrenics and raw foodists.
 
2013-09-18 09:59:02 AM  

GodComplex: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Mikey1969: I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting

I'm not anti-gun but maybe selling firearms to people who have called the police because they are hearing voices and who are actively seeking mental health care might not be the best idea.

Possibly not. That's why there's that line item on 4473. Course to get better use out of that we kind of need facilities and a budget to lock up people we feel are dangerous to society, like schizophrenics and raw foodists.


The ATF can't even be bothered to prosecute felons, fugitives, and domestic violence offenders who lie on their 4473. I don't think they'd be arsed to go after people with mental health issues.
 
2013-09-18 10:05:27 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Mikey1969: manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting, for a few reasons:

1. As you pointed out, this was a shotgun, not an "assault rifle", nor a handgun with a "high capacity magazine". A shotgun.

2. He tried to buy an assault rifle, but was unable to.

3. We are assured on here EVERY TIME THERE IS A GUN THREAD that NOBODY is proposing an outright ban on guns, so what's the current story? Are these same people suddenly proposing the outright ban on guns that they keep proposing and then lying about?

4. The weapons he used besides the shotgun are what he stole from the armed guard he killed. We are constantly told that it is "OK" for the cops and military to be armed because they are "trained" and will "keep us safe". With armed militarty and police, we are told that we "Don't NEED to worry about armed gunmen".

No one has ever said that assault rifle and high capacity magazine bans will end all gun violence, nor even all mass shootings.  They may help lead to fewer deaths in mass shootings however.  A solution doesn't need to be 100% effective to be worth trying.

There were multiple failures that led to this shooting.  He had a record of criminal violations with firearms that were never followed up on or recorded properly in the system, he had a record of mental health issues that were unable to be checked, his background check was apparently poorly done if he was able to get clearance to be on the base in the first place, etc.

It's a tragedy, and we can look back at what went wrong to try to plug those particular holes so that we don't have the same issues again. This particular case is a strong argument for improving our b ...


So basically ban everything they dont like in order to possibly save a few lives (since assault weapons are used in the very minority of crimes)? But wouldn't you rather concentrate on the things that would do the most good versus something that would probably do very little little? It's one of those things I'm always confused about. Rifles are rarely used in homicides but seem to take up most of the gun controls proposals. Also if violent crime (including gun crime) has been dropped significantly in the last 20 years shouldn't we look to learn why that is and maybe increase what is working (be it more abortions, lead free gasoline, more people in jail, etc). Why don't we have a nationwide push on that verses banning things like bayonet lugs and pistol grips? If you want to save more lives wouldn't using whats already working be a better solution than that?
 
2013-09-18 10:12:32 AM  
Thanks Fartreagan.
 
2013-09-18 10:20:35 AM  

Tellingthem: TuteTibiImperes: Mikey1969: manimal2878: The best part is he started his rampage with a remington 870 pump shotgun.  A gun thathas never been part of any proposed ban.   This is not an automatic or even semi-automatic gun, it's the gun every  fud hunter has in the closet.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

I don't know that there really is a "best" part, but I'm curious to hear what the anti-gun people say about this shooting, for a few reasons:

1. As you pointed out, this was a shotgun, not an "assault rifle", nor a handgun with a "high capacity magazine". A shotgun.

2. He tried to buy an assault rifle, but was unable to.

3. We are assured on here EVERY TIME THERE IS A GUN THREAD that NOBODY is proposing an outright ban on guns, so what's the current story? Are these same people suddenly proposing the outright ban on guns that they keep proposing and then lying about?

4. The weapons he used besides the shotgun are what he stole from the armed guard he killed. We are constantly told that it is "OK" for the cops and military to be armed because they are "trained" and will "keep us safe". With armed militarty and police, we are told that we "Don't NEED to worry about armed gunmen".

No one has ever said that assault rifle and high capacity magazine bans will end all gun violence, nor even all mass shootings.  They may help lead to fewer deaths in mass shootings however.  A solution doesn't need to be 100% effective to be worth trying.

There were multiple failures that led to this shooting.  He had a record of criminal violations with firearms that were never followed up on or recorded properly in the system, he had a record of mental health issues that were unable to be checked, his background check was apparently poorly done if he was able to get clearance to be on the base in the first place, etc.

It's a tragedy, and we can look back at what went wrong to try to plug those particular holes so that we don't have the same issues again. This particular case is a strong argument fo ...


Violent crime has been going down, but our gun crime rates are still much higher than other developed western nations per capita, so it's worth paying special attention to gun violence.

According to the data assault rifles aren't used in the majority of gun violence, but at the same time, there's no need for someone to own one, or a high capacity magazine, so even if they're only used in a minority of crimes, it isn't a major imposition to ask people to give them up.

Banning handguns would have a much more positive effect, but it would be met with far more opposition and inconvenience many more people.

I see it as picking the battles you can win for now, making some headway, and then going after what matters once you have some momentum.
 
2013-09-18 10:29:20 AM  
President Merkin Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.

General "Buck" Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.

President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!

General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
 
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