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(CNN)   "Another day, another mass shooting in America. More blood, more tears, more knee-jerk rhetoric about finding a solution for a bunch of different problems." LZ Granderson writes the sanest opinion piece about gun control you'll read today   (cnn.com) divider line 215
    More: Interesting, Gay Journalists Association, LZ Granderson, Sandy Hook Elementary School, Wayne LaPierre, Washington Navy Yard, National Association of Black Journalists, NRA, detours  
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12499 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 7:02 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 01:06:04 AM
He raises good points, but no one is going to listen to him.  Pointing out that illegal gun owners are responsible for the most gun homicides just pisses the gun control crowd off.  Pointing out that legal gun owners are responsible for most mass shootings just pisses off the pro-gun crowd.
 
2013-09-18 06:58:05 AM

Lsherm: He raises good points, but no one is going to listen to him.  Pointing out that illegal gun owners are responsible for the most gun homicides just pisses the gun control crowd off.  Pointing out that legal gun owners are responsible for most mass shootings just pisses off the pro-gun crowd.


That's almost exactly what I came to say only it would have been less articulate.
 
2013-09-18 07:10:36 AM
Yeeehaw!  Another gun thread ... dudgummit.
 
2013-09-18 07:12:07 AM

Lsherm: He raises good points, but no one is going to listen to him.  Pointing out that illegal gun owners are responsible for the most gun homicides just pisses the gun control crowd off.  Pointing out that legal gun owners are responsible for most mass shootings just pisses off the pro-gun crowd.


I am not pissed about facts at all, provided they are, in fact, facts.  I fail to see why gun safety advocates would be pissed about the fact that illegal gun owners are responsible for the most gun homicides. Gun safety advocates do not want anyone to have illegal guns. Their position, which seems logical enough, is that if the criminals didn't have ready access to illegal guns, there would be fewer gun murders.

I can see why the fact that legal gun owners are the ones who commit mass killings upsets gun nuts, though. But then most gun nuts appear to be regular nuts as well.
 
2013-09-18 07:12:41 AM
Poverty?  Mental health?  WTF is this shiat??  This is America!  We try to fix problems at the wrong end, thankyouverymuch.
 
2013-09-18 07:15:09 AM
Ah, it's just a tired old "we should wait for more information" puff piece.
 
2013-09-18 07:17:40 AM
Stopped reading at lz granderson
 
2013-09-18 07:18:19 AM
I don't understand why on military bases, where people have been trained to use guns for defense, that everybody is not armed.  Would've helped twice now.  Change the rules.
 
2013-09-18 07:19:12 AM

Lsherm: He raises good points, but no one is going to listen to him.  Pointing out that illegal gun owners are responsible for the most gun homicides just pisses the gun control crowd off.  Pointing out that legal gun owners are responsible for most mass shootings just pisses off the pro-gun crowd.


Yea, pretty much

He said what I've been thinking for awhile now but since it's not an extreme opinion, no one will listen.
 
2013-09-18 07:19:23 AM
Naw, this is idiotic. Once again, an imbecile appeals to the ,"but Chicago had a gun ban," while ignoring the well established counter that it's useless surrounded by a nation with. A mish mash of alternatives.

This argument is very well known and understood. Both writer and subby willfully ignored it. That makes this a dishonest opinion piece.

Do we need more data? No. We need uniform standards of regulation, including background checks and gun usage and safety training.  Instead, as is typical, we have morons trying to ignore this fact and scuttle this very good idea by lying about reality.
 
2013-09-18 07:21:20 AM
10 people with 10 different solutions to the same problem, and every one will finish their argument with some derivation of, "And you are a moron if you don't agree."

Which is why peeps stop even listening.
 
2013-09-18 07:22:57 AM
The nutter crowd has already settled on video games being the real problem here.
 
2013-09-18 07:25:10 AM
From today's other gun thread:
"Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind." - 2wolves
 
2013-09-18 07:25:26 AM
The problem is that he was able to kill some guards and take their guns. If they had squishy nerf hammers instead of guns, a lot more peopel would be alive today. It's time we rid ourself of fire arms and replace them with squishy nerf hammers. If you self protection nuts feel the need to defend yourself, you can get your own nerf hammer. Now of course this will be usless if we can't stem the tide of weapons coming in from Mexico. So we just need to convince them to do the same. If they refuse, we simply make them using our nerf hammers.
 
2013-09-18 07:28:08 AM
This is a very good thought out article.

The right needs to compromise on this. You don't have to have your guns taken away, but you need to allow more money to go into mental health and poverty reduction.
 
2013-09-18 07:33:56 AM

VendorXeno: Naw, this is idiotic. Once again, an imbecile appeals to the ,"but Chicago had a gun ban," while ignoring the well established counter that it's useless surrounded by a nation with. A mish mash of alternatives.

This argument is very well known and understood. Both writer and subby willfully ignored it. That makes this a dishonest opinion piece.

Do we need more data? No. We need uniform standards of regulation, including background checks and gun usage and safety training.  Instead, as is typical, we have morons trying to ignore this fact and scuttle this very good idea by lying about reality.


He's only talking about the kneejerk reactions regarding banning that has so far been the only solutions brought up.

That's what he was addressing.
 
2013-09-18 07:35:44 AM
cman [TotalFark]

This is a very good thought out article.

The right needs to compromise on this.

There are numerous years in recent history where the USA has had a democrat president, a democrat controlled Senate and a democrat controlled House of Rep's. Your finger pointing is denial, nothing more. If the dims cared about mental health issues they would have done something then.... and would stop calling for violence.
 
2013-09-18 07:36:02 AM
I'll reserve my opinion until Alex Jones tells us who he's working for and what type of false-flag operation it is.
 
2013-09-18 07:37:20 AM

Tat'dGreaser: VendorXeno: Naw, this is idiotic. Once again, an imbecile appeals to the ,"but Chicago had a gun ban," while ignoring the well established counter that it's useless surrounded by a nation with. A mish mash of alternatives.

This argument is very well known and understood. Both writer and subby willfully ignored it. That makes this a dishonest opinion piece.

Do we need more data? No. We need uniform standards of regulation, including background checks and gun usage and safety training.  Instead, as is typical, we have morons trying to ignore this fact and scuttle this very good idea by lying about reality.

He's only talking about the kneejerk reactions regarding banning that has so far been the only solutions brought up.

That's what he was addressing.


That's impossible because what you're saying is a lie.
 
2013-09-18 07:38:05 AM

HotWingConspiracy: That's impossible because what you're saying is a lie.


Lulz, ok good talk!

What?
 
2013-09-18 07:38:16 AM
Sane? Not the word I would use. He makes valid points that mental health care and poverty are large root causes of urban violence. He says we need to approach it from all angles then says we should give up on gun control thus completely contradicting himself.

The fact is that presence if a legally owned gun in a home Increases odds if suicide and violence against women. This cuts all racial and income boundaries. Also states with lax gun laws have higher rates of gun violence and most illegal guns used in crimes were purchased legally in states with lax gun laws

What the real problem is is the culture. I don't have s problem with gun ownership. I support gun rights. I support the right to hunt. But I find it odd that you can't get a driver license without passing a written test and and a road test but in some states you can legally ken a gun without doing either. Background checks have stopped thousands of firearms from being purchased by people with criminal backgrounds yet we don't check private sales. 70% of NRA members support universal background checks but the NRA treats the idea as if someone was coming to take their guns away.

Sensible gun ownership and sensible gun laws are worthy of pursuit and enforcement. The author would appear to disagree and I don't understand why.
 
2013-09-18 07:38:23 AM

VendorXeno: Naw, this is idiotic. Once again, an imbecile appeals to the ,"but Chicago had a gun ban," while ignoring the well established counter that it's useless surrounded by a nation with. A mish mash of alternatives.

This argument is very well known and understood. Both writer and subby willfully ignored it. That makes this a dishonest opinion piece.

Do we need more data? No. We need uniform standards of regulation, including background checks and gun usage and safety training.  Instead, as is typical, we have morons trying to ignore this fact and scuttle this very good idea by lying about reality.


I don't think you actually read and/or understood the article.
 
2013-09-18 07:39:00 AM

SpdrJay: I'll reserve my opinion until Alex Jones tells us who he's working for and what type of false-flag operation it is.


Already did, I think this false flag was designed specifically to discredit him personally.
 
2013-09-18 07:39:36 AM

Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: That's impossible because what you're saying is a lie.

Lulz, ok good talk!

What?


"banning" hasn't been the only solution brought up. You're lying.
 
2013-09-18 07:40:02 AM
VendorXeno


Naw, this is idiotic. Once again, an imbecile appeals to the ,"but Chicago had a gun ban," while ignoring the well established counter that it's useless surrounded by a nation with. A mish mash of alternatives.

You're right of course. Lets look at an island with very strict bans.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade.

If one wanted to take your ad hominem approach one could reply to your post with Once again, an imbecile calls to ban inanimate objects rather than addressing the PEOPLE that make the choices to be evil.
 
2013-09-18 07:40:50 AM

HotWingConspiracy: "banning" hasn't been the only solution brought up. You're lying.


Not by the people in charge. Conversations people have on websites haven't been brought forth as solutions.
 
2013-09-18 07:41:32 AM
I'm always amazed how this is generalized as People who hate guns vs. People who love guns.

The truth is, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone in the USA who is truly anti-guns.  More likely, they're anti-insane-people-with-guns or anti-completely-irresponsible-people-with-guns.   Sadly, quite a few gun owners fall into that latter category.  I always think of that Simpsons episode where Homer gets a gun -- it pretty much sums up the problem nicely.
 
2013-09-18 07:42:31 AM
FTA: "Not all deaths involving guns are the same -- therefore trying to address each incident from the same point of view is futile . . .[shootings] will keep continue to happen until the advocates accept that ridding the country of guns is a hopeless -- and unconstitutional mission -- and that the real goal should be addressing the factors that lead to the various forms of gun violence: factors such as poverty, mental health and failing schools."

Three points:
1. The article was not as stupid as I expected.

2. However, I stopped caring when I got to that second quote and realized he actually thinks that gun advocates are (A) all the same, and (B) interested in the most extreme solution.

3. That should be ". . . hopeless -- and unconstitional -- mission, and that . . ."

Apparently Mr. Granderson attended a school that taught neither grammar nor irony.
 
2013-09-18 07:43:28 AM

Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: "banning" hasn't been the only solution brought up. You're lying.

Not by the people in charge. Conversations people have on websites haven't been brought forth as solutions.


Even allowing for the drastically expanded definition of banning that gun rights people use, this still isn't true.
 
2013-09-18 07:43:56 AM
SpdrJay
2013-09-18 07:36:02 AM


I'll reserve my opinion until Alex Jones tells us who he's working for and what type of false-flag operation it is.

As nutty as A.J. is, at least that fool waited till the blood clotted to start his shiat.

As the bullets were flying, total farkers were blaming right wing tea party conspiracies.

diane feinstein has called for AR bans (a gun this man did not use)

and the democrat DC Mayor has blamed the republicans and the sequester.

So yes, marginalized (rightly so) a.j. is a nut. Yet democrat leaders do the same thing and keep their positions of respect.
 
2013-09-18 07:45:05 AM
Mass shootings are simply the price we as a country are willing to pay for some people who want to fetishize their guns. I can't even summon up sympathy anymore. We had the debate about whether the mentally ill should have access to assault rifles, and we lost that debate. We collectively said that preventing periodic mass shootings aren't worth the loss of fun some idiot feels while plinking cans in his backyard.

I'm not outraged. I'm just sad. Every death from here on out should be buried on the grounds of the NRA and their supporters, both civilian and government. This is what you wanted. Welcome to the new normal.
 
2013-09-18 07:45:16 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Even allowing for the drastically expanded definition of banning that gun rights people use, this still isn't true.


I feel like you had an argument with someone on here, are pissed about it and now you're yelling at me.

I have no idea what the f*ck you're talking about. I have a feeling you have no idea what my opinion is on this and you're just projecting.
 
2013-09-18 07:46:28 AM
His proposed ways to help with reducing gun violence: better education and mental health care.

But many of the people that scream loudest about 'you can't take our guns away' are also the ones willing to let education and mental health go underfunded.They need to start thinking about how to preserve their rights because a tipping point on this is coming. In the next 20 years or so I suspect there will be a push for a constitutional amendment that removes or reduces the Second Amendment and puts the right to own guns the hands of the states.

Only about 30% of the US population reports owning a gun, and a large majority are reportedly neutral on the subject of gun control. But let's be honest, which does a better job of recruiting people to their side: mass shootings, or a successful home defense?

For the record, I support gun ownership, but unless we take real action to help get things like this under control we are going to loose our right, and no amount of screaming, "Constitutional Rights!" is going to save it.
 
2013-09-18 07:46:46 AM

That's not saying the NRA has won -- in fact, I think LaPierre should step down because each time he opens his mouth, he steps in it -- but at the end of the day the organization is more of an agitator than the enemy.


This is a point that is not mentioned often enough. I say that as a gun owner who will not join the NRA for the same basic reason.
 
2013-09-18 07:47:01 AM

OnlyM3: SpdrJay
2013-09-18 07:36:02 AM


I'll reserve my opinion until Alex Jones tells us who he's working for and what type of false-flag operation it is.
As nutty as A.J. is, at least that fool waited till the blood clotted to start his shiat.

As the bullets were flying, total farkers were blaming right wing tea party conspiracies.

diane feinstein has called for AR bans (a gun this man did not use)

and the democrat DC Mayor has blamed the republicans and the sequester.

So yes, marginalized (rightly so) a.j. is a nut. Yet democrat leaders do the same thing and keep their positions of respect.


Consider the body of work, Jones think the wealthy eat stolen fetuses wrapped in gold. Like, he really said that.
 
2013-09-18 07:48:07 AM
Blink
2013-09-18 07:41:32 AM


I'm always amazed how this is generalized as People who hate guns vs. People who love guns.

The truth is, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone in the USA who is truly anti-guns. More likely, they're anti-insane-people-with-guns or anti-completely-irresponsible-people-with-guns.
That's not true at all. The democrat party is full of quotes calling for all out bans (see diane feinstein, kennedy). Fark had several people calling for the shotgun this fool used to be banned. Yes a 2 shot shotgun is "too far" for them. When you deny these people are calling for all out bans you don't help your cause.
 
2013-09-18 07:48:19 AM

Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: Even allowing for the drastically expanded definition of banning that gun rights people use, this still isn't true.

I feel like you had an argument with someone on here, are pissed about it and now you're yelling at me.

I have no idea what the f*ck you're talking about. I have a feeling you have no idea what my opinion is on this and you're just projecting.


I'm merely replying to your words, as you can see I quoted you directly. You said something that is obviously false.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-18 07:50:01 AM
We need to allow victims to sue gun manufacturers and dealers.  The only reason we don't have decent gun control legislation is because of our politicians are easily manipulated by money.  Take the money out of the equation, and the NRA loses it's power.
 
2013-09-18 07:51:11 AM

HotWingConspiracy: I'm merely replying to your words, as you can see I quoted you directly. You said something that is obviously false.


Ummmm nope, I don't think so
 
2013-09-18 07:53:01 AM
I don't know that more spending on social programs is the answer, either.

But it's inarguable that tougher gun control wouldn't have done squat to the Navy yard shootings... this guy had a SECRET clearance for crying out loud. Getting a gun under any conceivable gun control laws would have been easy peasy for him.

Which also brings up the point that it was cuts to Defense spending that contributed to this, by the inability to follow through on the warning report from the PD and to better vet clearances.

Even the arguments that we need to change society's culture don't really stick... for one, it's several different cultures (you can't say that rural America and inner cities have even close to the same culture, but both could be said to have a gun problem with armed violence resulting)... for another, this guy wasn't in any of those cultures; he was fairly respectable, etc.

Not sure there is one answer, or if there's even any answer.  Ultimately it's just a sad situation, both the immediate in DC and the general state of society.
 
2013-09-18 07:55:13 AM
OnlyM3:
........Yet democrat leaders do the same thing and keep their positions of respect.

Positions of respect??!?
Bwaaahahahaahahahahaha! Now that's a good one.
 
2013-09-18 07:55:29 AM
vpb

We need to allow victims to sue gun manufacturers and dealers. The only reason we don't have decent gun control legislation is because of our politicians are easily manipulated by money.

And if someone steals your car the bank they rob and the old lady they run over should be able to sue obama since he runs GM.
 
2013-09-18 07:56:21 AM
Sanest piece?  No, subby...he just re-hashes "It's too soon to talk about gun control" which is the weakest argument on the pro-gun side.

Followed only by his use of "Chicago has a gun ban, still has gun violence", which is the SECOND weakest argument on the pro-gun side...Chicago ain't a walled city.

Author's intellectually weak, and subby should feel bad for linking to him.
 
2013-09-18 07:57:45 AM
Yes. Good thing we have the Republicans ready to fight poverty (by taking away their food stamps), metal health ( by replacing Obamacare with...), and poor education (by defunding public schools and trying to route money into Christian-based teaching charter schools).
 
2013-09-18 07:58:05 AM
Every left wing jagoff talks about gun control when when what we need is people control. You cannot allow schizophrenics to walk around free. This guy had demonstrated he was a danger and he still wasn't institutionalized. That's not acceptable in any case but especially so if you're going to take people's basic human right to defend themselves away from them. Unfortunately the left wing judiciary has sided with the nuts at the ACLU so it would take a constitutional amendment to get him and Lanza and Holmes and the Korean guy and the guy who shot Giffords institutionalized but there isn't another reasonable solution.
 
2013-09-18 07:58:12 AM

Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: I'm merely replying to your words, as you can see I quoted you directly. You said something that is obviously false.

Ummmm nope, I don't think so


I know that's what you think, I was being helpful and correcting you.
 
2013-09-18 07:59:32 AM

HotWingConspiracy: I know that's what you think, I was being helpful and correcting you.


Well have fun with that, you crazy person
 
2013-09-18 08:00:13 AM

Xenomech: Poverty?  Mental health?  WTF is this shiat??  This is America!  We try to fix problems at the wrong end, thankyouverymuch.


And how do you plan on fixing those items?  Whatever your solution is, that solution will certainly cost money.  So great, your solution sounds like it should work.  Lets raise some money (taxes) to try and fix it.  Lets build up some low income areas (entitlement programs) so they have a better quality of living.  Oh wait?  You don't want to raise taxes?  You don't want to fund more entitlement programs?  I see, so why did you present a solution that you aren't willing to attempt?

/that's the way i see the pro gun argument at least, not necessarily your own.
 
2013-09-18 08:01:54 AM
The guy was a subcontractor for HP - Meg Whitman clearly has blood on her hands.
 
2013-09-18 08:02:26 AM
"This is why gun-control advocates need to abandon the routine of using mass shootings to turn law-abiding citizens into social pariahs and instead focus on something that could work."

Like, turning all gun owners into social pariahs?
 
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