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(Salon)   "In the past 30 years, not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed civilian"   (salon.com) divider line 522
    More: Obvious, making excuses, New York City Police Department  
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10864 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 3:27 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 07:07:12 AM
That is because they stopped it before it became a mass shooting.
 
2013-09-18 07:07:51 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: CujoQuarrel: How could you possibly come up with the correct statistics for this since most mass shooting happen is a place where civilians aren't allowed to have firearms? Kinda throws the numbers

No. Covered in TFA.


You mean the article that spouts bogus info about gunmen being stopped by armed citizens?

The article that repeats a claim about the shooter "reportedly" having an AR-15, even though at the time of publication it was known that he didn't?

That article? That article is also wrong about where most mass shootings take place.
 
2013-09-18 07:10:06 AM
The more restrictions placed on guns, other contraband, and etc the more powerful organized crime becomes. Its no different from how black market abortion clinics flourished in the past. If anything all children should receive education on firearms and the dangers of them. A firearms free zone is nothing but a target to these crazies.
 
2013-09-18 07:13:33 AM
The fact that most mass shootings occur at locations where the carrying of firearms is illegal wasn't considered?  How could anyone stop the Navy Yard shooting when -- and I can't believe I'm typing this -- people in the military there are NOT allowed to be armed!!!

Thanks Klintoon.
 
2013-09-18 07:14:18 AM

SauronWasFramed: kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?

The guy was not in uniform, was he. I suppose if you have to lie like Mother Jones did, facts don't matter.

Nor does the fact that he had to sprint to his car that was parked off campus. Why? Because he would have been arrested for doing so.

As it stands, he had to sprint back and stopped the shooter while he was reloading.




So the shooting took place anyway. Got it. The MJ article got it right; no mass shooters were stopped from killing people by another armed citizen. But that won't stop the gun nuts from claiming they have.
 
2013-09-18 07:17:02 AM
 
2013-09-18 07:17:37 AM

Maledeus: The more restrictions placed on guns, other contraband, and etc the more powerful organized crime becomes. Its no different from how black market abortion clinics flourished in the past. If anything all children should receive education on firearms and the dangers of them. A firearms free zone is nothing but a target to these crazies.


Yup, that's why Norway here is run by the gun running gangs from Finland... or something.
 
2013-09-18 07:18:30 AM

Brainsick: I_C_Weener: But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.

Can you post one from say...this month? Difficulty: No NRA Links


How about a simple Google News search? 

A witness told police that Stevens fired first and Rozgonyi returned fire

Kansas City home owner shoots, kills intruder with shotgun

Would-be robber fatally shot by homeowner

With wife and baby upstairs, Northland homeowner fatally shoots intruder

Missouri Liquor Store Clerk, Veteran, Pulls Gun on Armed Robber

Robbery victim: 'Instead of pulling my wallet, I pulled my gun'

I could probably pull a couple dozen more from the last month if I looked harder.
 
2013-09-18 07:19:32 AM
Why is it that all of them start out with 3 shooters.  Then there is only 1.  That one is either dead or so drug addled so that he cannot speak.
 
2013-09-18 07:19:54 AM

Bendal: SauronWasFramed: kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?

The guy was not in uniform, was he. I suppose if you have to lie like Mother Jones did, facts don't matter.

Nor does the fact that he had to sprint to his car that was parked off campus. Why? Because he would have been arrested for doing so.

As it stands, he had to sprint back and stopped the shooter while he was reloading.

So the shooting took place anyway. Got it. The MJ article got it right; no mass shooters were stopped from killing people by another armed citizen. But that won't stop the gun nuts from claiming they have.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MYUdPrs2Ls
 
2013-09-18 07:20:05 AM
FTFA      The fact is that 12 more Americans are dead because of the all-too-easy availability of dangerous weapons to dangerous people.  This statement is a mass killing for all other statements in this article.
 
2013-09-18 07:23:26 AM

GreenAdder: [i.imgur.com image 300x562]

[i.imgur.com image 440x324]


Pawn to Queen four.
 
2013-09-18 07:25:41 AM
They're pretty good at picking the wrong target though.
 
2013-09-18 07:34:04 AM
Isn't the headline blatently retarded?  If it was stopped it didn't become a mass shooting.
 
2013-09-18 07:34:28 AM

SmackLT: Brainsick: I_C_Weener: But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.

Can you post one from say...this month? Difficulty: No NRA Links

How about a simple Google News search?
A witness told police that Stevens fired first and Rozgonyi returned fire

Kansas City home owner shoots, kills intruder with shotgun

Would-be robber fatally shot by homeowner

With wife and baby upstairs, Northland homeowner fatally shoots intruder

Missouri Liquor Store Clerk, Veteran, Pulls Gun on Armed Robber

Robbery victim: 'Instead of pulling my wallet, I pulled my gun'

I could probably pull a couple dozen more from the last month if I looked harder.


Obvious paid NRA shills.

Sarcasm aside people in this day and age who still try and pretend that robberies and home invasions aren't routinely stopped with guns are as bad as the people who think the UN is going to take their guns.
 
2013-09-18 07:39:15 AM

Ghastly: feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

Wow.... when you put it like that it really makes you think. What a shiat hole of a country you live in.

Seriously, instead of giving every farking nutjob out there an AR-15 and as much ammo as he can carry why don't you as a nation start taking on the root causes that make your citizens want to do harm to one another. Why is it that Americans keep saying "Yay! I have a gun" instead of "why the fark do I live in a country where I need to have a gun to feel safe".

Oh that American Exceptionalism.


That's been one of the points I've tried to make multiple times.  It's like we looked at the Cold War arms race and the rise of MAD as a means of security and thought 'wow, we should implement that at the household level!'.
 
2013-09-18 07:44:26 AM

manimal2878: Isn't the headline blatently retarded?  If it was stopped it didn't become a mass shooting.


Right.  Just like how the fact that no one's ever found any evidence of a scandal involving Benghazi proves the existence of a massive coverup.
 
2013-09-18 07:54:14 AM
Headline is misleading.  Should read:   In the past 30 years every single mass shooting occurred by mentally deranged people.
 
2013-09-18 07:56:39 AM

Mentat: With two mass shootings at military installations, it's clear that we need to arm our soldiers.


I never understood why people think that everyone on a military base is walking around with their assigned firearm. There are firearms lockers and folks need a reason to carry firearms around base. It's been that way for decades.
 
2013-09-18 07:59:44 AM

legion_of_doo: PunGent: The NRA, obviously. They CLAIM they want better mental health reporting, yet threaten (and succeed in) ousting politicians who actually propose such laws. Your proposal has been part of federal law since 1968; who do you think blocked effective funding for the last forty years?

We have the right to privacy in this country, as well as the presumption of innocence.


I'm not part of the NRA, and I don't own guns, but I do have an issue with people who think you should just drop your drawers any time the government says it's for safety.


Yes, we have both those things.  Do YOU think mentally ill folks should have guns?  Even our founding fathers supported mad houses with their taxes...and for damned sure took away the guns of those incarcerated therein.

Personally, I apply the golden rule here:  If I went nuts, I'd hope nobody would sell ME a gun.

Yes, it's an infringement on my Second Amendment rights...but it's one I can live with.

NO rights are absolute, and, if you think about it, they mostly shouldn't be, if you want a functioning society of more than one person.
 
2013-09-18 08:00:08 AM

gocary50: FTFA      The fact is that 12 more Americans are dead because of the all-too-easy availability of dangerous weapons to dangerous people.  This statement is a mass killing for all other statements in this article.


How many people are alive today because of the availabity of a gun for defensive use? More than 12.

How many deaths would be prevented by a national speed limit of 3 mph? A lot more than 12. As a bonus, a speed limit change would not violate people's Constitutional right to firearms, nor would it infringe on their basic human right to self-defense.
 
2013-09-18 08:00:49 AM
Yes, thank you very much anti-gun people who insist anyone who wants to carry a firearm must be some sort of paranoid idiot so it's only reasonable that nobody carry guns. Thank you very much people who freak out and call the cops when people openly carry guns where it is legal to do so.

We couldn't create target rich environments in which nobody can fight back without you.
 
2013-09-18 08:01:29 AM

Fista-Phobia: How many of you don't care whether a fellow motorist has a valid driver's license or not?


Having had my car dented by an unlicensed hit-and-run guy a few years back near the Tappan Zee bridge, I care.
 
2013-09-18 08:03:43 AM

Phinn: gocary50: FTFA      The fact is that 12 more Americans are dead because of the all-too-easy availability of dangerous weapons to dangerous people.  This statement is a mass killing for all other statements in this article.

How many people are alive today because of the availabity of a gun for defensive use? More than 12.

How many deaths would be prevented by a national speed limit of 3 mph? A lot more than 12. As a bonus, a speed limit change would not violate people's Constitutional right to firearms, nor would it infringe on their basic human right to self-defense.


It's almost like there is some difference between a gun massacre and a traffic accident.
 
2013-09-18 08:04:22 AM

feckingmorons: I also carry it because it annoys people who want to deny me that right.


Got to stick it to the LIBS!

That's why so many voted for Hitler, too!
 
2013-09-18 08:06:54 AM

doglover: OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
[api.ning.com image 850x689]

Suicide is not a statistic you wanna bring up if you're anti gun. People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.

In Japan, the sucide rate is INSANE. It's high as the total US murder rate. And yet... not a firearm to be had without serious licensing. If you think firearms regulation will lower suicide rates, you're objectively and demonstratively wrong.


jackass also provided a graph that counts only incidents that resulted in death, thereby leaving out the majority of all incidents...
 
2013-09-18 08:07:26 AM

randomjsa: Yes, thank you very much anti-gun people who insist anyone who wants to carry a firearm must be some sort of paranoid idiot so it's only reasonable that nobody carry guns. Thank you very much people who freak out and call the cops when people openly carry guns where it is legal to do so.

We couldn't create target rich environments in which nobody can fight back without you.


Personally, I think if you want to carry a firearm when you're not hunting or on the firing range, you are indeed some kind of paranoid idiot, and you're putting us all in danger by having a deadly bang stick on you for no good reason. A bunch of people walking around is not a TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENT unless you are a paranoid idiot and you see normal people walking around as A BUNCH OF TARGETS.
 
2013-09-18 08:12:05 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Phinn: gocary50: FTFA      The fact is that 12 more Americans are dead because of the all-too-easy availability of dangerous weapons to dangerous people.  This statement is a mass killing for all other statements in this article.

How many people are alive today because of the availabity of a gun for defensive use? More than 12.

How many deaths would be prevented by a national speed limit of 3 mph? A lot more than 12. As a bonus, a speed limit change would not violate people's Constitutional right to firearms, nor would it infringe on their basic human right to self-defense.

It's almost like there is some difference between a gun massacre and a traffic accident.


Yeah, the difference is that traffic deaths occur almost entirely on government property, where government organizations enforce the government's rules, as people drive cars that are built to government safety standards.

If any other property owner had that level of control over the people who die on their premises, and it kept happening about 80 or 90 times per day, there'd be some changes made, I think.

Changes that don't happen to also violate Constituional rights.
 
2013-09-18 08:14:50 AM

Shostie: [i.imgur.com image 239x300]


For a second I thought it was a raptor claw feeding Jesus popcorn.

/I require more coffee.
 
2013-09-18 08:15:02 AM

Carl Scroot: Well if the "Illinois Tactical Blog" says so that's good enough for me.


As opposed to the firearm experts at Salon.com
 
2013-09-18 08:17:41 AM

Phinn: Yeah, the difference is that traffic deaths occur almost entirely on government property, where government organizations enforce the government's rules, as people drive cars that are built to government safety standards.


Hmm, so stricter automotive safety standards to go along with our reasonable gun restrictions you say? Sounds reasonable.  Let's see what our freedom-loving, free market, regulation-hating friends in the tea party have to say about that...
 
2013-09-18 08:20:08 AM

liam76: Sarcasm aside people in this day and age who still try and pretend that robberies and home invasions aren't routinely stopped with guns are as bad as the people who think the UN is going to take their guns.


Guns CAN be used to stop crime.
Guns can also be used to commit them.

How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner had larger magazines?
How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner had an 'assault weapon'?
How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner skipped a background check?

There is room for reasonable gun regulations and crime prevention as well.
 
2013-09-18 08:24:20 AM
Good thing the claim has been debunked or the 2nd amendment would be automatically void and nobody could own a gun for self-protection any more.

dookdookdook: manimal2878: Isn't the headline blatently retarded?  If it was stopped it didn't become a mass shooting.

Right.  Just like how the fact that no one's ever found any evidence of a scandal involving Benghazi proves the existence of a massive coverup.


The government telling tales they knew to be lies for days or weeks isn't a scandal?  Pretty sure we've heard and read the evidence.  CNN has a timeline if you need it.  After everyone knew the youtube video claim was bogus, Hilbillary Clinton told a dead marine's father we would do everything in our power to get the mean old youtube video maker - and we did.  Not scandalous at all?  "Scandal" doesn't mean someone necessarily gets fired or goes to jail.  They might just get a little red in the face - which is quite a reaction for someone with the conscience of an attorney.
 
2013-09-18 08:24:33 AM

hasty ambush: Carl Scroot: Well if the "Illinois Tactical Blog" says so that's good enough for me.

As opposed to the firearm experts at Salon.com


Your ambushes have all been rather hasty as of late, maybe its time to sit down and plan one out.
 
2013-09-18 08:27:36 AM

NewportBarGuy: But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.


There was a proposal in Obamacare that would have started a national medical record data base, so that if you were admitted to a hospital or seen anywhere in the country by a doctor, all your information would be easily accessible.  It also would have been perfectly for flagging the mentally ill, among other things.

It was the first part of the package to be thrown out.
 
2013-09-18 08:29:06 AM

doglover: In Japan, the sucide rate is INSANE. It's high as the total US murder rate.


Might be a simpler reason for that.

Pulled out a knife where the cops saw it? Suicide. Embarrassed her family so they stabbed her to death? Suicide. Tried to sing a Sinatra song at a karaoke bar? You'd better believe that's a suicide.
 
2013-09-18 08:29:43 AM

Mentat: NickelP: Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed.

Yeah.  It's usually the shooter killing himself.


When someone with a gun shows up and ruins their fun.

(Recent shooting excluded because part of his plan was to "upgrade")
 
2013-09-18 08:31:49 AM

kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?


Do I count as a civilian or ex military? Can I be both?
 
2013-09-18 08:32:09 AM

dookdookdook: Phinn: Yeah, the difference is that traffic deaths occur almost entirely on government property, where government organizations enforce the government's rules, as people drive cars that are built to government safety standards.

Hmm, so stricter automotive safety standards to go along with our reasonable gun restrictions you say? Sounds reasonable.  Let's see what our freedom-loving, free market, regulation-hating friends in the tea party have to say about that...


The roads are not a free-market area. They are the State's property. The scope of government authority in that context can't get any higher.

Yet while simple life-saving measures are ignored, which could be easily and effectively enforced, and would quickly reduce the 35,000 or so annual road deaths, in a context where the State already has plenary authority, there is a huge political push, by the Left, to exercise control over a new facet of life, which is Constitutionally off-limits, virtually impossible to enforce, all to (supposedly) respond to dangers that pose a far smaller threat to innocent life, and which would also result in an increase in people's vulnerability to violent crime.

In light of these facts, you should not be surprised when people conclude that gun control proponents are untrustworthy and acting in bad faith.
 
2013-09-18 08:35:14 AM

SmackLT: Brainsick: I_C_Weener: But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.

Can you post one from say...this month? Difficulty: No NRA Links

How about a simple Google News search? 

A witness told police that Stevens fired first and Rozgonyi returned fire

Kansas City home owner shoots, kills intruder with shotgun

Would-be robber fatally shot by homeowner

With wife and baby upstairs, Northland homeowner fatally shoots intruder

Missouri Liquor Store Clerk, Veteran, Pulls Gun on Armed Robber

Robbery victim: 'Instead of pulling my wallet, I pulled my gun'

I could probably pull a couple dozen more from the last month if I looked harder.


Of course, the other side of this coin to this is that it REALLY debunks the theory that gun-toting civilians prevents crime, it simply rewards you with a greater sense of vengeance against the criminal.

if I see someone in my mirror flying up the expressway at 100 mph cutting people off left-and-right, can I "defensively drive" into his path cutting him off, with the hopes that he'll wipe out? That's sort of the vibe I'm getting here.
 
2013-09-18 08:35:38 AM

badhatharry: Bendal: SauronWasFramed: kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?

The guy was not in uniform, was he. I suppose if you have to lie like Mother Jones did, facts don't matter.

Nor does the fact that he had to sprint to his car that was parked off campus. Why? Because he would have been arrested for doing so.

As it stands, he had to sprint back and stopped the shooter while he was reloading.

So the shooting took place anyway. Got it. The MJ article got it right; no mass shooters were stopped from killing people by another armed citizen. But that won't stop the gun nuts from claiming they have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MYUdPrs2Ls


From the actual Mother Jones article: "We excluded cases involving armed robberies or gang violence; dropping the number of fatalities by just one, or including those motives, would add many, many more cases. (More about our criteria here.)"
 
2013-09-18 08:36:55 AM

NewportBarGuy: NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.


You would need to have a government appointed Mental Health Judge.  Imagine the can of worms that opens.
 
2013-09-18 08:37:40 AM

dookdookdook: manimal2878: Isn't the headline blatently retarded?  If it was stopped it didn't become a mass shooting.

Right.  Just like how the fact that no one's ever found any evidence of a scandal involving Benghazi proves the existence of a massive coverup.


I'm talking about what defines a mass shooting, you are talking about something stupid.
 
2013-09-18 08:38:18 AM

Big_Fat_Liar: The government telling tales they knew to be lies for days or weeks isn't a scandal? Pretty sure we've heard and read the evidence. CNN has a timeline if you need it. After everyone knew the youtube video claim was bogus, Hilbillary Clinton told a dead marine's father we would do everything in our power to get the mean old youtube video maker - and we did. Not scandalous at all? "Scandal" doesn't mean someone necessarily gets fired or goes to jail. They might just get a little red in the face - which is quite a reaction for someone with the conscience of an attorney.


See.
 
2013-09-18 08:38:28 AM

Deep Contact: Clackamas mall shooter faced man with concealed weapon. After killing 2, he saw the good guy with a gun and promptly killed himself.


Absolutely no evidence shooter saw your good guy.
 
2013-09-18 08:39:13 AM

Without Fail: liam76: Sarcasm aside people in this day and age who still try and pretend that robberies and home invasions aren't routinely stopped with guns are as bad as the people who think the UN is going to take their guns.

Guns CAN be used to stop crime.
Guns can also be used to commit them.

How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner had larger magazines?
How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner had an 'assault weapon'?

How many crimes were prevented because the gun owner skipped a background check?

There is room for reasonable gun regulations and crime prevention as well.


I am for universal background checks and tracking the sale of all guns.

But the bolded above aren't reasonable.
You are going after things because you fear or don't understand them.
Larger magazines have no correlation to 99.9% of gun violence. "Assault weapons" is a meaningless term, and laws based off it boil down to "looks scary".
Mkaing a law limiting the rights of others because you don't think they need it based off flimsy claims of safety gains isn't reasonable.


/doesn't own an "assault weapon" doesn't own a "large capacity magazine"
 
2013-09-18 08:39:23 AM
Salon Fail: If it was prevented, it wasn't a "mass shooting" and, therefore, there's no way to confirm or disprove it would have happened.

derpity herp
 
2013-09-18 08:41:05 AM

Big_Fat_Liar: The government telling tales they knew to be lies for days or weeks isn't a scandal? Pretty sure we've heard and read the evidence. CNN has a timeline if you need it. After everyone knew the youtube video claim was bogus, Hilbillary Clinton told a dead marine's father we would do everything in our power to get the mean old youtube video maker - and we did. Not scandalous at all? "Scandal" doesn't mean someone necessarily gets fired or goes to jail. They might just get a little red in the face - which is quite a reaction for someone with the conscience of an attorney.


Seriously?  Is that really it?  I mean, I know I don't pay much attention so I don't consider myself fully infromed on the matter, but is this really the totality of what the Fox/Rove crowd is red-faced in outrage over?  Someone may or may not have went on a political talk show and said something not exactly true for some unknown political reason?  Has there been a single day in the history of political talk shows when that didn't happen?

And Hillary tried to comfort a grieving father?  OH THE OUTRAGE!

How many millions of taxpayer dollars has Darryl Issa wastedwisely spent unearthing these egregious acts of treason and terror?
 
2013-09-18 08:46:07 AM

OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]


If all defensive uses of firearms resulted in death, your graph would constitute a meaningful rebuttal. However, they do not, so yours is not.
 
2013-09-18 08:47:13 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Deep Contact: Clackamas mall shooter faced man with concealed weapon. After killing 2, he saw the good guy with a gun and promptly killed himself.

Absolutely no evidence shooter saw your good guy.


The good guy says he did.
 
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