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(Salon)   "In the past 30 years, not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed civilian"   (salon.com) divider line 522
    More: Obvious, making excuses, New York City Police Department  
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10839 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 3:27 AM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 04:20:43 AM

untaken_name: cars are more than twice as deadly as guns


Per hour of operation?
 
2013-09-18 04:21:00 AM

PunGent: The NRA, obviously. They CLAIM they want better mental health reporting, yet threaten (and succeed in) ousting politicians who actually propose such laws. Your proposal has been part of federal law since 1968; who do you think blocked effective funding for the last forty years?

 
We have the right to privacy in this country, as well as the presumption of innocence.


I'm not part of the NRA, and I don't own guns, but I do have an issue with people who think you should just drop your drawers any time the government says it's for safety.
 
2013-09-18 04:23:30 AM

CujoQuarrel: How could you possibly come up with the correct statistics for this since most mass shooting happen is a place where civilians aren't allowed to have firearms? Kinda throws the numbers


No. Covered in TFA.
 
2013-09-18 04:25:36 AM
How many of you don't care whether a fellow motorist has a valid driver's license or not?
 
2013-09-18 04:27:51 AM

untaken_name: Peter von Nostrand: because i'm okay with universal background checks

Query: How would background checks have helped in this latest massacre, in which the guy got his guns from a Navy weapons cache and from the bodies of people he killed? Do they have a machine that does background checks before you can loot a corpse?


He started off with a shotgun, without that shotgun he doesn't loot bodies for more weapons. If the police had done their job he'd have lost his shotgun after calling them and complaining about hearing voices.

But you knew that.
 
2013-09-18 04:29:25 AM

OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
[api.ning.com image 850x689]


Suicide is not a statistic you wanna bring up if you're anti gun. People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.

In Japan, the sucide rate is INSANE. It's high as the total US murder rate. And yet... not a firearm to be had without serious licensing. If you think firearms regulation will lower suicide rates, you're objectively and demonstratively wrong.
 
2013-09-18 04:33:43 AM

doglover: People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.


Wrong.

And this isn't Japan.
 
2013-09-18 04:39:49 AM
Here's a better question
"What percentage of those who have been the victims in mass shootings were unarmed?"
 
2013-09-18 04:42:09 AM

Ghastly: feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

Wow.... when you put it like that it really makes you think. What a shiat hole of a country you live in.

Seriously, instead of giving every farking nutjob out there an AR-15 and as much ammo as he can carry why don't you as a nation start taking on the root causes that make your citizens want to do harm to one another.


US violent crime rates isn't particularly high compared with other countries. The homicide/suicide rate is, because guns are so lethal.
 
2013-09-18 04:42:16 AM

untaken_name: Ghastly: "why the fark do I live in a country where I need to have a gun to feel safe".

Why do you equate feeling safe with being safe? They aren't connected. Someone can easily feel safe without being so, or be safe without feeling so. What importance does feeling safe have, compared to actually being safe? If ones stays in rural areas in the US, one has very, very little to actually fear. Cities are chock foll of actual danger, but people seem to feel safer there. One of life's little oddities.


Ditto. Managed to live in the US for 44 years without needing to carry a gun to feel safe. Lived in the country, lived in the city, lived in the North, lived in the South, lived in freakin' Bed-Stuy before it got gentrified. If you need a gun to feel safe... a) grow a pair, and b) you need to realize, sad though it may be, that in most case, it's a safe assumption - and from a risk management perspective, the best assumption - that you are average, you are not Chow Yun-Fat in The Killer, you are not going to save somebody with your magical gun, and the person most likely to be killed with that gun is you, or someone you are close to. You may indeed at some point be confronted with an armed criminal. You also may become clinically depressed, or enraged by a cheating partner, or have a psychotic episode, or get really drunk or high - all of these things might happen. I'd bet the latter scenarios are more likely than the former - and a gun is going to hurt, not help, in those situations.

I must be a gun-grabber. I have owned guns in the past - your basics for a guy in the country, a .22, a .410 and a 12-gauge, but I do not now, living in a city in another country. Where I live, pretty much anyone can own a gun, but you have to have a background check, training, and you have to have a reason to own a gun. And self-defense is not considered a valid reason - the two generally recognized reasons are hunting and target shooting. And I think that is smart, and it reduces gun violence - because you have to keep guns locked up in a non-fireable state - trigger lock, or receiver or firing pin removed. So if you are depressed and want to off yourself, or if you're really mad at somebody because their lawn mower is too loud, or they looked at you funny, or you think they're up to no good in your neighborhood, you can't just grab a gun and fire it. Anyone who thinks they need a gun for self-defense will obviously keep it in a state where it can be accessed easily in a ready-to-fire state, or it would be useless for self-defense. So at the same time it's more available for accidentally shooting your foot, or your neighbor, or your child.

Go ahead - yell at me about the 2nd amendment, about some study in American Guntopia magazine that proves that owning a gun makes you 1000% safer and handsomer and awesomer. I believe in rational risk assessment and that tells me not to keep a gun on my person, or in my house.
 
2013-09-18 04:43:52 AM

CujoQuarrel: How could you possibly come up with the correct statistics for this since most mass shooting happen is a place where civilians aren't allowed to have firearms? Kinda throws the numbers


liberal math
 
2013-09-18 04:51:52 AM

Brainsick: I_C_Weener: But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.

Can you post one from say...this month? Difficulty: No NRA Links


Weasel words: How do they work?
 
2013-09-18 04:53:47 AM

doglover: OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
[api.ning.com image 850x689]

Suicide is not a statistic you wanna bring up if you're anti gun. People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.

In Japan, the sucide rate is INSANE. It's high as the total US murder rate. And yet... not a firearm to be had without serious licensing. If you think firearms regulation will lower suicide rates, you're objectively and demonstratively wrong.


Well to start with, the US suicide rate is over double the homicide rate. Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US whereas murder is 16th. And if you want to know how banning something affects suicides, see the reduction rates in suicides after we moved away from gas stoves, which was one of the more popular methods of offing yourself. Course if we could magically eliminate all guns from the US, Canada, and Mexico our murder/suicide rate would be cut in half, and still higher than every other country.

So yes, banning guns would lower the homicide/suicide rate in the same way banning cars would reduce drunk driving. But what would you ban after that, or would we as a nation have reached the acceptable homicide/suicide rate?

As a side note, the recent CDC study on violence said that we could reduce rates of violence by up to 17% if we closed bars an hour earlier. But who wants to limit access to alcohol just to save lives?
 
2013-09-18 04:55:48 AM
Nickel P:
Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed. Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian? And don't say the shooter dumbass

How about two days ago?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732466560457907703268189 9 414.html

Last year, two officers fired 16 times outside the Empire State building at a man, who had killed a co-worker.
Nine bystanders were hit, resulting in lawsuits against the NYPD.
 
2013-09-18 05:00:53 AM
Well wait, when people were using private firearms and returning fire at Charles Whitman were the gun laws in Texas stricter or more relaxed?  Cause I mean if it's just the last 30 years, maybe we need to relax the gun laws more so people will shoot back more often?
 
2013-09-18 05:02:32 AM
so statistics on wikipedia are the end all be all.


if this POS parent's had raised him right, the 12 victims would be breathing and so would his sorry ass.

Five to one, baby
One in five
No one here gets out alive, now
You get yours, baby
I'll get mine
Gonna make it, baby
If we try

The old get old
And the young get stronger
May take a week
And it may take longer
They got the guns
But we got the numbers
Gonna win, yeah
We're takin' over
Come on!
 
2013-09-18 05:02:52 AM
in the past 200 years, not a single mass shooting has ever been stopped by a disarmed citizen either.

And typically, when an armed citizen stops a POTENTIAL situation, it never develops into a mass shooting. if it gets to the point it can be clarified as a "mass shooting" its already well past being stopped.
 
2013-09-18 05:04:07 AM

feckingmorons: Yes, I am literally correct. My facts are correct, my assertion is valid and supported by evidence. Is there some better way to be correct?


theinfosphere.org
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

/gun control means hitting your target
 
2013-09-18 05:04:13 AM
I know everyone has a different opinion about this topic and I try to avoid getting into fights about it, but I will say this... I worked for a corporate law firm that represented gun manufacturers and ammunition manufacturers. You would not believe the kinds of cases nor the enormity of the caseload that these sorts of companies see. I'm sure  you can guess that the caseload's heavy, but I suspect that you have no idea just how heavy it is. Nor how ridiculous the stories are. (bullets regularly go through multiple walls injuring multiple people in the same home) We always hear about "responsible gun owners", but from what I've seen documented firsthand, I am willing to put money on it that the number of "responsible gun owners" is a small fraction of actual gun owners. That we institute some kind of safeguards to reduce the number of irresponsible gun owners is perfectly sensible to me. So many people worry about loss of life from other people with guns, when the statistics prove time and again that the gun in your own hand should be your biggest worry.
 
2013-09-18 05:07:54 AM
found on the internet:
- Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, this week: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.
- Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I'm excluding the shooters' deaths in these examples.)
- Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.
- Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates - as well as the "trained campus supervisor"; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.
- Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman's head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.
- Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/it-true-armed-civilians-have-nev er -stopped-mass-shooting_690808.html
 
2013-09-18 05:10:33 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: doglover: People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.

Wrong.

And this isn't Japan.



In Japan, g is 9.8 m/ss at sea level. But america isn't japan so wear spiked shoes or you'll fly into space.
 
2013-09-18 05:12:11 AM

433: DRTFA, DRTcomments.

A shooting at Smith County Courthouse in Texas was halted by a man with a sidearm.  The shooter had shot several people in the courthouse, several more outside.  A man with a concealed-carry license drew on him, and struck the shooter, mortally wounding him.  The shooter fatally shot the man firing at him, and fled in a pickup.  He wrecked the truck a distance later, dead.

This event may not be considered a mass shooting by some measures, but it was agreed by the witnesses that lives were saved by the man who shot the suspect, by drawing his attention (and fire) away.

I wouldn't expect Salon to consider my hometown of 100k in East Texas in their article. It's likely that the man with the concealed-carry would have been armed even had he been without the license, but really, I don't know.  He did, however make a heroic move against a man who was about to hurt other people.  Without a pistol, he may have rushed the guy, he was said to have been that sort of character.

The thrust of all this is the following: Men like him are the sort of person you want to have a concealed carry license.Determining that kind of character can't be done qualitatively by the government at the public level.  I don't know what to do about that.  However, when it is time for a man or woman to step up, I want that person to be there, in whatever manner they deem fit.


How about not having such a situation to occur to begin with?
 
2013-09-18 05:18:02 AM
gun violence is bad. buying a gun LEGALLY should be hard. showing ID and fingerprints that can be traced. a waiting period to track your record.

just like voting should be.
 
2013-09-18 05:24:24 AM

OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
[api.ning.com image 850x689]


Judging from your numbers, we should be outlawing motor vehicles and ladders before we get to firearms.  It's about saving lives, isn't it?

And don't get me started on cigarettes...
 
2013-09-18 05:26:04 AM

What_Would_Jimi_Do: gun violence is bad. buying a gun LEGALLY should be hard. showing ID and fingerprints that can be traced. a waiting period to track your record.

just like voting should be.


And getting a license to have a child.
 
2013-09-18 05:26:44 AM

doglover: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: doglover: People want to die, they kill themselves. The method doesn't matter.

Wrong.

And this isn't Japan.


In Japan, g is 9.8 m/ss at sea level. But america isn't japan so wear spiked shoes or you'll fly into space.


Japan has high suicide rates without access to guns therefore the US suicide rate would not change if there were no guns.

That's some high quality DERP! right there.
 
2013-09-18 05:27:35 AM
feckingmorons: Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

He also famously admitted that he almost shot one of the people trying to subdue the murderer.
 
2013-09-18 05:29:27 AM

What_Would_Jimi_Do: gun violence is bad. buying a gun LEGALLY should be hard. showing ID and fingerprints that can be traced. a waiting period to track your record.

just like voting should be.


If voting is hard, then those in power can make it harder for anyone opposing them to vote.

See: Grandfather clause, Poll Tax, Poll Test
 
2013-09-18 05:31:59 AM
on the other hand quite a few starter by them though
 
2013-09-18 05:33:55 AM

Peter von Nostrand: /i get called a gun grabber all the time because i'm okay with universal background checks


This right here sums up the "dialogue" entirely. There, as usual, two sides to the debate. On one side we have millions of people promoting intelligent gun reform and then the other side who pretty much exclusively lies about the first side and claims it just wants to "take away all guns." It's the only note the neoconservative movement has anymore, lie about everything to consistently thwart any social progress whatsoever.
 
2013-09-18 05:34:44 AM
"In the past 30 years, not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed civilian"

Really?  Then what do you call all those mass shootings?
 
2013-09-18 05:37:31 AM
An incredibly poorly researched Salon article with inflammatory rhetoric easily disproven?  Why I never heard of such a thing.

Why farkers still insist on posting the absolute garbage from that site I'll never know.

/stopped clicking those links back when a salon article told everyone that there was no way the Boston Marathon bombers could be muslims.
 
2013-09-18 05:55:13 AM
I would just be happy if the criminally insane, felons and assorted, dangerous, crazy, psychotics could actually you know, have some trouble getting that machine gun. But nope, it's about as difficult as ordering a dildo on Amazon.com anymore.

It sucks too, your average gun show 15 years ago wasn't that crazy or insane an affair. Now? Its basically a white power rally where you can trade a bag of meth for an ar15.
 
2013-09-18 06:07:49 AM

neongoats: It sucks too, your average gun show 15 years ago wasn't that crazy or insane an affair. Now? Its basically a white power rally where you can trade a bag of meth for an ar15.


I just went to one in VA.  It was the most polite, civil affair I have ever seen.  Then again, everyone was armed.  It's funny, they're kind of right that if everyone is aware of the real possibility of getting shot, most likely they will be more polite.  The problem lies in the fact that that shouldn't be a point of pride.
 
2013-09-18 06:09:25 AM

VendorXeno: Peter von Nostrand: /i get called a gun grabber all the time because i'm okay with universal background checks

This right here sums up the "dialogue" entirely. There, as usual, two sides to the debate. On one side we have millions of people promoting intelligent gun reform and then the other side who pretty much exclusively lies about the first side and claims it just wants to "take away all guns." It's the only note the neoconservative movement has anymore, lie about everything to consistently thwart any social progress whatsoever.


You conveniently leave out the hoplophobes that don't think any civilian should have a gun.  Pretending they don't exist sort of hints at you being less in desire of intelligent gun reform and more along those lines.

We don't need gun reform. Background checks and mental health screenings, sure.  The latter should probably be worked into schools and apply to everyone, even non-gun buyers.  Then again, I feel the same way about vehicles, there are entirely too many shiatty drivers out there.

*shrugs*

My penny and a half.
 
2013-09-18 06:13:22 AM
Mass Killings Stopped by Armed Citizens

Pearl High School Link

Appalacian Law School Link

Muskegon Shooting Link


New Life Church Link

Santa Clara Gunshop Link

Aniston Shoney's Shooting Link

Golden Food Market Shooting Link

Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link.

AT&T store Link

College Park, GA, May 4, 2009.


College Park Link

Trolley Square Shooting Link

Winnemucca NV shooting, 25 May, 2008

Winnemuca Shooting Link

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting LinK

Destiny Christian Center Shooting, April 24, 2012

Destiny Christian Center Shooting LinK

Tyler Courthouse Shooting Link
 
2013-09-18 06:13:36 AM

thamike: neongoats: It sucks too, your average gun show 15 years ago wasn't that crazy or insane an affair. Now? Its basically a white power rally where you can trade a bag of meth for an ar15.

I just went to one in VA.  It was the most polite, civil affair I have ever seen.  Then again, everyone was armed.  It's funny, they're kind of right that if everyone is aware of the real possibility of getting shot, most likely they will be more polite.  The problem lies in the fact that that shouldn't be a point of pride.


The last one I went to in Ohio(about a year ago) was a terrifying affair if you were anything but a Confederate Flag wielding(in a union state) crazy.(yes, I consider anyone flying a confederate flag as a crazy). So.. ymmv.
 
2013-09-18 06:14:25 AM
Clackamas mall shooter faced man with concealed weapon. After killing 2, he saw the good guy with a gun and promptly killed himself.
 
2013-09-18 06:20:50 AM

thamike: neongoats: It sucks too, your average gun show 15 years ago wasn't that crazy or insane an affair. Now? Its basically a white power rally where you can trade a bag of meth for an ar15.

I just went to one in VA.  It was the most polite, civil affair I have ever seen.  Then again, everyone was armed.  It's funny, they're kind of right that if everyone is aware of the real possibility of getting shot, most likely they will be more polite.  The problem lies in the fact that that shouldn't be a point of pride.


You know, it's not unlike when Christian fundies say that one can't behave morally without God. Like if you're not afraid of eternal punishment, you'll run amok in the streets. I guess the same goes for us being constantly armed to the teeth - it's the only possible way to remain polite. Otherwise, blammo, we all start attacking each other like fast zombies.

Unfortunately, the sort of person who is only kept from acting savagely by the knowledge that everyone around him is armed is EXACTLY who I do not want carrying a gun.
 
2013-09-18 06:25:24 AM

Mentat: With two mass shootings at military installations, it's clear that we need to arm our soldiers.

'If We Had the Ammunition, We Could've Cleared that Building,' Son at Navy Yard Told Dad

Back in 1993, the Clinton administration virtually declared military establishments "gun-free zones." As a result, the policy banned "military personnel from carrying their own personal firearms and mandates that 'a credible and specific threat against [Department of the Army] personnel [exist] in that region" before military personnel 'may be authorized to carry firearms for personal protection." Indeed, most military bases have relatively few military police as they are in heavy demand to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan," according to economist John Lott.

Additionally, Lott discovered that "every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns."

The answer is simple. Murderers pick places where they know their victims will be unarmed. It's time we debate having concealed carry on military bases. After all, there's no evidence showing that firearms owners are more irresponsible than the police, as Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund noted back in December of 2012:

"According to a 2005 to 2007 study by researchers at the University of Wisconsin and Bowling Green State University, police nationwide were convicted of firearms violations at least at a 0.002 percent annual rate. That's about the same rate as holders of carry permits in the states with 'shall issue' laws."

Use to be rifles were kept in the barracks with the Soldier/Marine:

img.fark.net

Now they are kept "secure" in what amount to a locked vault (a practice started before Clinton):

img.fark.net
 
2013-09-18 06:26:47 AM

omeganuepsilon: You conveniently leave out the hoplophobes that don't think any civilian should have a gun. Pretending they don't exist sort of hints at you being less in desire of intelligent gun reform and more along those lines.


Just saying, but googling "hoplophobe" gives roughly the same results as if I'd googled "obamafascist gun grabbing nazi conspiracy liberals hate freedom tranny porn"...
 
2013-09-18 06:29:05 AM

feckingmorons: What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?


Work for Fox News.
 
2013-09-18 06:31:58 AM
How gun owners see themselves:

mobiusband.com

The reality:

hellogiggles.com
 
2013-09-18 06:32:48 AM

hasty ambush: Mass Killings Stopped by Armed Citizens

Pearl High School Link

Appalacian Law School Link

Muskegon Shooting Link


New Life Church Link

Santa Clara Gunshop Link

Aniston Shoney's Shooting Link

Golden Food Market Shooting Link

Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link.

AT&T store Link

College Park, GA, May 4, 2009.


College Park Link

Trolley Square Shooting Link

Winnemucca NV shooting, 25 May, 2008

Winnemuca Shooting Link

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting LinK

Destiny Christian Center Shooting, April 24, 2012

Destiny Christian Center Shooting LinK

Tyler Courthouse Shooting Link


Well if the "Illinois Tactical Blog" says so that's good enough for me.
 
2013-09-18 06:37:59 AM

hasty ambush: according to economist John Lott.


The same John Lott who ruined his academic career by fabricating research data to support a pro-gun agenda and is now reduced to making a living as a talking head on Fox?

Yeah, stopped reading there.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2003/02/09/lottethics/
http://web.archive.org/web/20110606235648/http:/www.cse.unsw.edu.au/ ~l ambert/guns/lindgren.html
 
2013-09-18 06:47:41 AM
Seems we've decided that we'll have this pointless conversation, which solves nothing, every few months or years when some deranged asshole shoots a bunch of people with guns he should have never been allowed to purchase legally... Whatever.

I've owned firearms since I was 18. Was taught how to shoot and be safe with a rifle by my grandfather when I was 12, but honestly, theses days I really want nothing to do with the most vocal of "gun advocates" or their politics. In fact, most of the folks I've heard defending my right to own a firearm disgust me.
 
2013-09-18 06:49:22 AM

SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal


I was more bothered by the "highly trained New York City police officers who discharged their guns in public hit their intended targets only 34 percent of the time"


And I am for background checks for all guns, as well as govt or FFL's tracking all gun sales. As law as expediency and cheapness are built into the law.
 
2013-09-18 06:52:34 AM
Mass shootings almost always occur in legally-mandated gun-free zones. Law-abiding civilians don't bring guns there.

Was Floyd Corkins stopped by armed civilians? I can't remember. Corkins was the only politically-motivated mass murder (albeit prevented) in more than 10 years -- he was a gay marriage advocate. He had something like 15 Chick-fil-A sandwiches with him, which he planned to smear in his victims' faces.

Clearly, left-wing political activists, inspired by the SPLC's list of designated "hate groups," pose the 21st century's biggest political mass-shooting threat.
 
2013-09-18 06:58:41 AM

omeganuepsilon: You conveniently leave out the hoplophobes that don't think any civilian should have a gun. Pretending they don't exist sort of hints at you being less in desire of intelligent gun reform and more along those lines.


Hoplophobes? You mean like most of the rest of the civilised world? Where (weirdly enough) these mass shootings seem to be a lot less frequent?
 
2013-09-18 06:59:36 AM

Cagey B: feckingmorons: Not a single house burned down when an extinguisher was used to put out a small kitchen fire. That follows the same logic.

That's not "logic". That's "retarded grasping". Fire starts in a house. Person sprays it with fire extinguisher. Problem solved. The analogous situation would be person starts shooting the place up, Heroic Armed Republican Citizen then shoots maniac, problem solved. There seems to be a lack of cases of the latter happening.

feckingmorons: If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting.

Oh boy. Yes, please keep going in that direction. Double down.

feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[citation needed]


That's an easy citation to provide. Even the most skeptical estimates puts that number at about 8200 times per months with the average guesstimates at over twice that.

Mass shooting are so rare and usually happen at places that don't allow public carry. Many businesses don't allow employees to carry at work, and forget about it at a school. You should also immediately discount any shooting in a state that openly discourages carrying, like California, DC , etc.

i have no reason to doubt Salons particular argument based on statistical probability. However, that doesn't mean that personal weapons aren't used all the time for self defense.

http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-27/how-often-do-we-us e -guns-in-self-defense

The more you know.
 
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