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(Salon)   "In the past 30 years, not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed civilian"   (salon.com) divider line 522
    More: Obvious, making excuses, New York City Police Department  
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10839 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 3:27 AM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-18 01:24:09 AM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.
 
2013-09-18 01:28:27 AM

Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.


And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.
 
2013-09-18 01:40:22 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.


So they were ignored then or did the Mother Jones "study" pretended they didn't happen?  What else did Mother intentionally not include or inform us about?
 
2013-09-18 01:42:57 AM

Tyee: TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.

So they were ignored then or did the Mother Jones "study" pretended they didn't happen?  What else did Mother intentionally not include or inform us about?


Could be differing definitions on what counts as a mass shooting.  Of the three involving civilians one was more of a robbery gone bad than a mass shooting, and without knowing the full stories behind the other two it's hard to tell what the motives, targets, etc, were.
 
2013-09-18 01:47:05 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.


Four that I count right off the bat: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8

1 was Myrick, who was the assistant principal at Pearl. While Myrick was a reserve officer, the gun he had, IIRC, was his personal weapon.

4 was Assam and the church shooting - he was a former police officer, but not one at the time of the shooting according to the linked article.

I think 7 and 9 should be included as well, since the police officers were off duty and carrying a firearm as a private citizens.

Unless you're suggesting we disqualify anyone from the list that has ever served in the military or police.

Which, quite frankly, is bullshiat.

I think you're trying to cherry pick the data in your favor (surprise surprise). Actively serving military and police, as well as former military and police, make up a good percentage of the CCW registry. They have a ccw because they want to carry as private citizens.

If we follow the logic of the anti-gun lobby, ccw would not be allowed - who needs it right? - and those off duty officers would not have been allowed to carry their personal weapons as they were not on the job.

So at least 6 of the 9 shooters would not have been stopped without a citizen carrying a gun.
 
2013-09-18 01:47:58 AM
Fark, screwed up my numbers: 5 that I counted right off the bat, plus the two off duty police officers, equals 7 out of 9.

It's late.
 
2013-09-18 01:48:25 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Could be differing definitions on what counts as a mass shooting.


  The point is that the Mother Jones study is less about valid information than it is about spreading misinformation.
 
2013-09-18 01:49:06 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.

So they were ignored then or did the Mother Jones "study" pretended they didn't happen?  What else did Mother intentionally not include or inform us about?

Could be differing definitions on what counts as a mass shooting.  Of the three involving civilians one was more of a robbery gone bad than a mass shooting, and without knowing the full stories behind the other two it's hard to tell what the motives, targets, etc, were.


Mother jones cherry picked the data just like you do.

Big surprise.
 
2013-09-18 01:51:30 AM

Elegy: TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.

Four that I count right off the bat: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8

1 was Myrick, who was the assistant principal at Pearl. While Myrick was a reserve officer, the gun he had, IIRC, was his personal weapon.

4 was Assam and the church shooting - he was a former police officer, but not one at the time of the shooting according to the linked article.

I think 7 and 9 should be included as well, since the police officers were off duty and carrying a firearm as a private citizens.

Unless you're suggesting we disqualify anyone from the list that has ever served in the military or police.

Which, quite frankly, is bullshiat.

I think you're trying to cherry pick the data in your favor (surprise surprise). Actively serving military and police, as well as former military and police, make up a good percentage of the CCW registry. They have a ccw because they want to carry as private citizens.

If we follow the logic of the anti-gun lobby, ccw would not be allowed - who needs it right? - and those off duty officers would not have been allowed to carry their personal weapons as they were not on the job.

So at least 6 of the 9 shooters would not have been stopped without a citizen carrying a gun.


You can lead a horse to water and make him drink easily, but Tute won't listen to a fact and you won't make him. Just relax.
 
2013-09-18 01:53:25 AM

Elegy: TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.

Four that I count right off the bat: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8

1 was Myrick, who was the assistant principal at Pearl. While Myrick was a reserve officer, the gun he had, IIRC, was his personal weapon.

4 was Assam and the church shooting - he was a former police officer, but not one at the time of the shooting according to the linked article.

I think 7 and 9 should be included as well, since the police officers were off duty and carrying a firearm as a private citizens.

Unless you're suggesting we disqualify anyone from the list that has ever served in the military or police.

Which, quite frankly, is bullshiat.

I think you're trying to cherry pick the data in your favor (surprise surprise). Actively serving military and police, as well as former military and police, make up a good percentage of the CCW registry. They have a ccw because they want to carry as private citizens.

If we follow the logic of the anti-gun lobby, ccw would not be allowed - who needs it right? - and those off duty officers would not have been allowed to carry their personal weapons as they were not on the job.

So at least 6 of the 9 shooters would not have been stopped without a citizen carrying a gun.



I'd count off duty and ex law enforcement and military differently than pure civilians. They've all received extensive training with their firearms, gone through rigorous background checks, and have training and experience in handling tense situations with criminals.
 
2013-09-18 02:01:12 AM

TuteTibiImperes: I'd count off duty and ex law enforcement and military differently than pure civilians. They've all received extensive training with their firearms, gone through rigorous background checks, and have training and experience in handling tense situations with criminals.


i.imgur.com

Stop it. You're killing me. Tell another one, please!
 
2013-09-18 02:02:35 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Elegy: TuteTibiImperes: Tyee: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-tha t -were-stopped-by-someone-wit
9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm that the Mother Jones "study" pretended didn't happen or just ignored.

And of all of those only 3 were stopped by an actual non-military, non-law-enforcement, civilian.

Four that I count right off the bat: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8

1 was Myrick, who was the assistant principal at Pearl. While Myrick was a reserve officer, the gun he had, IIRC, was his personal weapon.

4 was Assam and the church shooting - he was a former police officer, but not one at the time of the shooting according to the linked article.

I think 7 and 9 should be included as well, since the police officers were off duty and carrying a firearm as a private citizens.

Unless you're suggesting we disqualify anyone from the list that has ever served in the military or police.

Which, quite frankly, is bullshiat.

I think you're trying to cherry pick the data in your favor (surprise surprise). Actively serving military and police, as well as former military and police, make up a good percentage of the CCW registry. They have a ccw because they want to carry as private citizens.

If we follow the logic of the anti-gun lobby, ccw would not be allowed - who needs it right? - and those off duty officers would not have been allowed to carry their personal weapons as they were not on the job.

So at least 6 of the 9 shooters would not have been stopped without a citizen carrying a gun.


I'd count off duty and ex law enforcement and military differently than pure civilians. They've all received extensive training with their firearms, gone through rigorous background checks, and have training and experience in handling tense situations with criminals.


Aaron Alexis was elite then.
 
2013-09-18 02:02:52 AM

TuteTibiImperes: and have training and experience in handling tense situations with criminals.


So if someone was in the national guard you're fine with them having a gun in public then?  All the criminal training those guard guys get?  I got more tense situation training with a CCW permit but hey I'm sure you know what you're talking about.
 
2013-09-18 02:40:23 AM
Meanwhile, five people were shot in isolated incidents in Chicago while this article was being written.  But those aren't "mass" shootings, the only kind the media cares about.
 
2013-09-18 02:45:52 AM

kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?


Pricipal caught sayof
 
2013-09-18 03:05:44 AM

Mentat: NickelP: Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed.

Yeah.  It's usually the shooter killing himself.


This.
 
2013-09-18 03:11:25 AM
feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

Wow.... when you put it like that it really makes you think. What a shiat hole of a country you live in.

Seriously, instead of giving every farking nutjob out there an AR-15 and as much ammo as he can carry why don't you as a nation start taking on the root causes that make your citizens want to do harm to one another. Why is it that Americans keep saying "Yay! I have a gun" instead of "why the fark do I live in a country where I need to have a gun to feel safe".

Oh that American Exceptionalism.
 
2013-09-18 03:30:36 AM
Am I the first liter? I am honored.
 
2013-09-18 03:35:08 AM
Damn, if  you need to totally ingore facts to make your point, you probably shouldnt be making said point in absolutes.

It is asinine to say that no mass shootings have been stopped by an armed civilian when most people can think of at least one off of the top of their head.

It makes you a liar and no one listens except the full whackjobs who agree with you.  Even they shake their head and take it with a grain of salt.
 
2013-09-18 03:38:17 AM

StopLurkListen: Am I the first liter? I am honored.


It's the calm before the next wave of derp. Get out while you can.
 
2013-09-18 03:40:03 AM

Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.


THIS

What that saying about repeating the same mistakes?
 
2013-09-18 03:41:01 AM
There are, roughly, as many civilian owned firearms in the USA as there are cell phones. It's hard to get exact numbers, but there are more cell phones and more firearms than there are people, so there are enough for everybody. Obviously not every man woman and child has a cell phone or a firearm, some people have several. Sleep well, America.
 
2013-09-18 03:44:23 AM

2wolves: feckingmorons: 2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.

I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.

Thank you for your rather long form agreement.


My takeaway from this thread?

feckingmorons likes to hear himself talk
 
2013-09-18 03:45:38 AM

2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.


Australia managed. Similar "frontier" history, etc. But they got their sh-t together after *one* particularly awful mass shooting.

Of course we have cowardly politicians held hostage by threats, amongst other issues, so I doubt it'll happen here. Though it damn well should.
 
2013-09-18 03:45:42 AM

feckingmorons: He however didn't shoot the gunman, the criminal fled after seeing the armed citizen.


Impossible to prove.

feckingmorons: Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.


Not with a gun he didn't.
 
2013-09-18 03:45:44 AM

dr_blasto: NickelP: Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed. Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian? And don't say the shooter dumbass

Wait wait wait. Hasn't just about every mass shooting ended by the shooter offing himself?


why are libtards so ignorant?
 
2013-09-18 03:46:25 AM

feckingmorons: If I were there with my gun I would have herded people to shelter unless there was absolutely no other recourse but to shoot the criminal. I'm not keen on shooting people.


You were rubbing yourself when you typed that, weren't you?
 
2013-09-18 03:46:40 AM

Tyee: TuteTibiImperes: Could be differing definitions on what counts as a mass shooting.

  The point is that the Mother Jones study is less about valid information than it is about spreading misinformation.


Yes, completely unlike the NRA :)
 
2013-09-18 03:47:06 AM

StopLurkListen: Am I the first liter? I am honored.


Fly, you fools! This derp is beyond any of you!
 
2013-09-18 03:48:31 AM
If nobody had any guns then one person with a gun could kill everyone.

People are crazy and that's why they all need guns.

Are cognitively dissociated yet?
 
2013-09-18 03:49:00 AM
The Trolley Square shooting in Salt Lake was stopped by an off-duty policeman...which has nothing to do with the premise of citizens being in on the action, I know. Bear with me for a second.

Two years later, he was busted for a sexual offense with a 17-year-old girl while on duty. Which leads to my theory: if you stop a mass shooting (citizen or not), you will become a child molester. That should be good enough to enact some gun regulations right there.

/sorry
 
2013-09-18 03:49:44 AM

feckingmorons: Hemenway


Quote: Since only 42% of U.S. households own firearms, and since victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep,  the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100% of the time.

Now what does it say about you that you still give this study enough credence to even bother mentioning it in the first place?


Even Hemenway's attempt to discredit Kleck's study shows that there are hundreds of thousands of civilian uses of firearms to prevent crime every year, even if we accept every possible statistical error that could be made.

The 200,000 number in Hemenway comes from a hypothetical example showing the extreme sensitivity of extrapolations to small errors in the surveying process using error rates that are completely made-up for purposes of illustration.

The fact that you interpreted the 200,000 as some kind of revised figure shows the math involved (basic first-semester college stats) just flew completely over your head.
 
2013-09-18 03:49:53 AM

Chariset: The fantasy -- that if YOU had been there with your heroic gun, you would have shot the killer and saved everyone -- is for the moment still a fantasy.


If people start shooting, I am not going to try and stop an armed gun man, I am going to get the fark out of there as fast I can. I have no training or experience to confront that type of situation, even if I was armed.
 
2013-09-18 03:52:51 AM

feckingmorons: 2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.

I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.


Not sure where you're getting your numbers, first thing off the web says 84 murders in Ireland last year:

http://www.herald.ie/news/dublin-murder-rate-is-one-of-europes-highe st -27897137.html
 
2013-09-18 03:59:20 AM

I_C_Weener: But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.


Can you post one from say...this month? Difficulty: No NRA Links
 
2013-09-18 03:59:39 AM
If you do the maths, the odds of being hit by a bullet is really low.  One quadrillion to one.
 
2013-09-18 04:01:00 AM

feckingmorons: NewportBarGuy: NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.

Just before the Virginia Tech shooting, in which the murderer was so mentally ill that he should not own a gun, 22 states were reporting disqualified persons to the NCIC. The National Instant Criminal Background Check Improvement Act was enacted to encourage states to meet their responsibilities about reporting those disqualified due to commitment or guardianships.

That has obviously failed to be of any significant help. Republican Senator Graham introduced the NICS Reporting Improvement Act of 2013 with bipartisan supporting co-sponsors. It has of course gone nowhere because our elected legislators are do nothing imbeciles.

This is an exceptionally good Bill, it clarifies exactly who must be reported as disqualified as well as including protections for people who may have previously been disqualified but because their medical problems have improved that they no longer present any danger from unjust disqualification.

We heard a lot of BS coming out of Washington, but this bill should have been pushed through despite the political posturing. It is a short Bill, read it and see if you don't agree with everything in it. Republicans, Democrats, Independents... who could possibly object to this ...



The NRA, obviously.   They CLAIM they want better mental health reporting, yet threaten (and succeed in) ousting politicians who actually propose such laws.  Your proposal has been part of federal law since 1968; who do you think blocked effective funding for the last forty years?

PETA?

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2013/4/colorado- me ntal-health-bill-full-of-problems-passes-house-committee-%281%29.aspx? s=%22mental+health%22&st=&ps=
 
2013-09-18 04:01:57 AM
feckingmorons: When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun.

Hmmm, so either Texas has to abolish the death penalty, or stop electing criminals governor...

Yeah, you're right.  We're screwed.
 
2013-09-18 04:05:03 AM
 
2013-09-18 04:07:43 AM

Peter von Nostrand: because i'm okay with universal background checks


Query: How would background checks have helped in this latest massacre, in which the guy got his guns from a Navy weapons cache and from the bodies of people he killed? Do they have a machine that does background checks before you can loot a corpse?
 
2013-09-18 04:10:21 AM
feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

www.renegadepopo.com
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
api.ning.com
 
2013-09-18 04:10:28 AM

untaken_name: Peter von Nostrand: because i'm okay with universal background checks

Query: How would background checks have helped in this latest massacre, in which the guy got his guns from a Navy weapons cache and from the bodies of people he killed? Do they have a machine that does background checks before you can loot a corpse?


Didn't he start with a shotgun?  Which he was licensed for, and probably shouldn't have been?

(I admit I haven't kept up with all the details here, I could be wrong.)
 
2013-09-18 04:10:28 AM

NickelP: Interesting I will read up more on that. fyi iI'm not a pot head, been years since I touched that stuff. I do think its a bit of bullshiat and political vengeance to say someone that maybe has cancer and wants a joint so they can keep food down during chemo is mentally unstable and can't own guns. Way to kill a bill over something that has shiat to do with the subject at hand


It also means fewer people getting 'the card' (because they'll be on a list) or, flip side, they'll get the MJ card and buy their guns somewhere besides a licensed dealer. Hooray Government for encouraging the black market!
 
2013-09-18 04:11:15 AM
If every citizen was required to hold a shotgun in one hand and an automatic weapon in the other at all times then there would be no crime.

That's what the Terminator and Rambo did, and they never got shot at.

Wait, what?
 
2013-09-18 04:12:32 AM

Ghastly: "why the fark do I live in a country where I need to have a gun to feel safe".


Why do you equate feeling safe with being safe? They aren't connected. Someone can easily feel safe without being so, or be safe without feeling so. What importance does feeling safe have, compared to actually being safe? If ones stays in rural areas in the US, one has very, very little to actually fear. Cities are chock foll of actual danger, but people seem to feel safer there. One of life's little oddities.
 
2013-09-18 04:12:35 AM
I dont know what disturbs me more. That this thing keeps on happening or that now we just let this kind of thing happen with a slight shrug without any talk of REASONABLE gun laws to placate the gun lobby and screechers.

You won guys, enjoy the fruits of your labor...Enjoy.
 
2013-09-18 04:14:48 AM

MabalzIzari: http://conservativepost.com/armed-citizens-fight-crime-by-fighting-b ac k/


So, judging by the first clip in that video, society's only hope is fat, elderly men charging through crowded offices firing wildly in the general direction of a baddie?
 
2013-09-18 04:17:47 AM

OrangeSnapper: feckingmorons:Thousands Hundreds of times each month year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

[www.renegadepopo.com image 306x256]
  Thousands Tens of thousands of times each year lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families kill themselves and each other with firearms.
[api.ning.com image 850x689]


Three times as many people kill themselves or others unintentionally with automobiles. Also, there are more than twice as many guns in the US as cars, yet cars are more than twice as deadly as guns. Ban assault vehicles!
 
2013-09-18 04:19:35 AM
They sure start a lot of these shootings though.
 
2013-09-18 04:19:38 AM
How could you possibly come up with the correct statistics for this since most mass shooting happen is a place where civilians aren't allowed to have firearms? Kinda throws the numbers
 
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