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(Salon)   "In the past 30 years, not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed civilian"   (salon.com) divider line 522
    More: Obvious, making excuses, New York City Police Department  
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10859 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Sep 2013 at 3:27 AM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-17 08:18:52 PM
Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal
 
2013-09-17 08:26:30 PM

SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal


The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?
 
2013-09-17 08:27:31 PM
Well, that's because guns aren't allowed in areas where mass shootings occur.  It's the law.  Guns, outlaws, etc. whatever.
 
2013-09-17 08:31:05 PM
That is simply untrue.

The Clackamas Town Center shooting was stopped by an armed civilian. He however didn't shoot the gunman, the criminal fled after seeing the armed citizen.
Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

Those are the first two I could think of off the top of my head.
 
2013-09-17 08:34:31 PM
Not a single house burned down when an extinguisher was used to put out a small kitchen fire. That follows the same logic. If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting. Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

I know Salon was the first online publication with a paywall. Do they still have it. I'm surprised they still exist. I thought it was about women's hair for the longest time.
 
2013-09-17 08:35:02 PM
With two mass shootings at military installations, it's clear that we need to arm our soldiers.
 
2013-09-17 08:35:03 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-17 08:36:26 PM

feckingmorons: Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.


You might want to refresh your recollection on what this guy did or didn't do with his gun.
 
2013-09-17 08:36:34 PM
I was armed when someone asked me for directions. I was friendly and gave him excellent directions. Little did I know that had I did things a little differently -that guy would have gone on a shooting rampage.
 
2013-09-17 08:39:08 PM

kronicfeld: feckingmorons: Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

You might want to refresh your recollection on what this guy did or didn't do with his gun.


Just taking it out prevented hundreds, nay thousands from dying.  That is the awesome power of the gun.
 
2013-09-17 08:43:41 PM

feckingmorons: Not a single house burned down when an extinguisher was used to put out a small kitchen fire. That follows the same logic.


That's not "logic". That's "retarded grasping". Fire starts in a house. Person sprays it with fire extinguisher. Problem solved. The analogous situation would be person starts shooting the place up, Heroic Armed Republican Citizen then shoots maniac, problem solved. There seems to be a lack of cases of the latter happening.

feckingmorons: If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting.


Oh boy. Yes, please keep going in that direction. Double down.

feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.


[citation needed]
 
2013-09-17 08:48:12 PM

SauronWasFramed: Salon fail.


But then, you repeat yourself.
 
2013-09-17 08:50:27 PM

kronicfeld: feckingmorons: Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

You might want to refresh your recollection on what this guy did or didn't do with his gun.


He didn't shoot anyone. He was armed, when he wrestled with others for the weapon used to shoot everyone. You might want to read the headline.
 
2013-09-17 08:51:13 PM
The fantasy -- that if YOU had been there with your heroic gun, you would have shot the killer and saved everyone -- is for the moment still a fantasy.
 
2013-09-17 08:52:32 PM

kronicfeld: SauronWasFramed: Salon fail. Pearl MS was stopped by an Asst principal

The U.S. Army Reserve Commander assistant principal?




The guy was not in uniform, was he. I suppose if you have to lie like Mother Jones did, facts don't matter.

Nor does the fact that he had to sprint to his car that was parked off campus. Why? Because he would have been arrested for doing so.

As it stands, he had to sprint back and stopped the shooter while he was reloading.

/realizes mother jones has to stretch their story by distorting the facts
 
2013-09-17 08:55:26 PM

feckingmorons: He didn't shoot anyone. He was armed, when he wrestled with others for the weapon used to shoot everyone. You might want to read the headline.


Yes, you are literally correct, given the particular phrasing of the headline: he was an armed civilian who was partially involved in subduing the shooter. Of course, given that the gun in his pocket had no role whatsoever in what transpired, his being armed was utterly meaningless. His being armed had as much relevance as his gender, race, or sexual orientation: none.
 
2013-09-17 08:55:30 PM
The information is that guns are used defensively a lot more than they are used to kill. No idea if showing a gun stopped a mass shooting. Go prove some other negatives Salon.
 
2013-09-17 08:56:24 PM

SauronWasFramed: The guy was not in uniform, was he.


How heavy are those goalposts? And what does Mother Jones have to do with anything?
 
2013-09-17 08:59:28 PM

I_C_Weener: The information is that guns are used defensively a lot more than they are used to kill. No idea if showing a gun stopped a mass shooting. Go prove some other negatives Salon.


Is it true that guns are used defensively more often than to commit homicide?

/not trolling
 
2013-09-17 08:59:50 PM
Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.
 
2013-09-17 09:04:08 PM

2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.


Your Honor, I'd like to enter this into the record as Exhibit A:

i42.tinypic.com
 
2013-09-17 09:11:08 PM

b2theory: I_C_Weener: The information is that guns are used defensively a lot more than they are used to kill. No idea if showing a gun stopped a mass shooting. Go prove some other negatives Salon.

Is it true that guns are used defensively more often than to commit homicide?

/not trolling


The most conservstive estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 uses per year. The NRA number is more like 1 million. What constitutes defensive gun use is determined differently in the various studies. Stuff like showed a holstered gun or yelling that you have a gun counts in some studies but not in others. But the studies are almost all from around the era of the Assault Weapons ban.

But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.
 
2013-09-17 09:11:49 PM

Cagey B: That's not "logic". That's "retarded grasping". Fire starts in a house. Person sprays it with fire extinguisher. Problem solved. The analogous situation would be person starts shooting the place up, Heroic Armed Republican Citizen then shoots maniac, problem solved. There seems to be a lack of cases of the latter happening.


Here you go then, if we can assume all small kitchen fires burn a house down we can also assume that all people who shoot other people will become mass murderers by shooting many people during one crime spree. Here are a few thousand cases of an armed citizen stopping an armed criminal before they could graduate to mass murderer.

I carry a gun because I can. I also carry it because it annoys people who want to deny me that right.

Cagey B: feckingmorons: If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting.Oh boy. Yes, please keep going in that direction. Double down.


If you stop a wildfire with a hose it also won't burn up a subdivision.

Cagey B: feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.[citation needed]


The citations are linked above.

You may also be interested in an interview with Dr. Gary Kleck [FSU department of Criminal Justice] in which he notes private guns stop crimes 2,500,000 times a year in the US.

Even Hemenway's attempt to discredit Kleck's study shows that there are hundreds of thousands of civilian uses of firearms to prevent crime every year, even if we accept every possible statistical error that could be made. Hemenway is an economist not a criminologist.

I've provided both sides of the coin and they both support my assertion. If you want more I can provide them, but I'm not doing your homework for you.
 
2013-09-17 09:12:00 PM
Still relevant

www.ieet.org

/i get called a gun grabber all the time because i'm okay with universal background checks
//we're screwed
 
2013-09-17 09:12:52 PM

2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.


Left got ObamaCare, the Right got their guns

I guess it all works out in the end

/Its a joke
 
2013-09-17 09:14:00 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: I was armed when someone asked me for directions. I was friendly and gave him excellent directions. Little did I know that had I did things a little differently -that guy would have gone on a shooting rampage.


I have almost never been armed when out in public. The lives I could have saved have left me with no will to live. Thank goodness I have a gun.
 
2013-09-17 09:14:07 PM

2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.


I also second this observation.

/Too many Americans love their guns too much.
//Around here, people talk about their guns more than Alabama football at times.
 
2013-09-17 09:16:43 PM

kronicfeld: feckingmorons: He didn't shoot anyone. He was armed, when he wrestled with others for the weapon used to shoot everyone. You might want to read the headline.

Yes, you are literally correct, given the particular phrasing of the headline: he was an armed civilian who was partially involved in subduing the shooter. Of course, given that the gun in his pocket had no role whatsoever in what transpired, his being armed was utterly meaningless. His being armed had as much relevance as his gender, race, or sexual orientation: none.


He was leaving the grocery and ran towards the gunfire. He felt equipped to help someone being robbed, or assaulted or shot because he was on a level playing field. If he just had a carton of eggs and a pack of smokes he probably wouldn't have done that. While he may sound like an internet tough guy in his interview, we can't deny that he ran from the safety of the store to where people were being shot. He put himself in harm's way. Would you do that?

Yes, I am literally correct. My facts are correct, my assertion is valid and supported by evidence. Is there some better way to be correct?
 
2013-09-17 09:20:19 PM
Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed. Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian? And don't say the shooter dumbass
 
2013-09-17 09:22:45 PM

Chariset: The fantasy -- that if YOU had been there with your heroic gun, you would have shot the killer and saved everyone -- is for the moment still a fantasy.


If I were there with my gun I would have herded people to shelter unless there was absolutely no other recourse but to shoot the criminal. I'm not keen on shooting people.

I am not the police. I don't have an obligation to help others (frankly the police don't have an obligation to help you either [Warren v. District of Columbia]). I would certainly hope I would, I sure think I would, however I carry a gun to protect myself an my family. Not to protect the world from lunatics who are intent on murdering people.

If the police and the marines can't protect people from crazed murderers I'm not going to be a lot of help to anyone else.

10 minutes for the police to arrive and three hours to render the criminal incapable of killing anyone else. I'll keep my gun for those 10 minutes while we're waiting for the cops.  I don't depend on the government for my safety, you can if you want to. We see how well that worked.
 
2013-09-17 09:28:18 PM
What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.
 
2013-09-17 09:29:48 PM

NickelP: Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian?


I'm pretty sure you can find quite a few cases of people's weapons being used against them and inflicting even more carnage. Not saying that's a case against self defense, but you're making a pretty stupid statement.

Not that this whole debate hasn't be reduced to absurdity already.

It's like watching crippled kids fight.
 
2013-09-17 09:31:25 PM

2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.


I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.
 
2013-09-17 09:31:28 PM

Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.


The most conservative estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 preventions per year. The Brady Foundation number is more like 1 million.
 
2013-09-17 09:33:23 PM

DoctorCal: Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.

The most conservative estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 preventions per year. The Brady Foundation number is more like 1 million.


I think it is twenty billion. I can make up estimates of things that never happened just as well as anyone else.

What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?
 
2013-09-17 09:33:26 PM

NickelP: Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed. Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian? And don't say the shooter dumbass


Don't know about a civilian, but it looks like the Navy Yard shooter used at least one (and maybe two) guns that he took after shooting armed guards at the start of his rampage.
 
2013-09-17 09:34:16 PM

NewportBarGuy: NickelP: Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian?

I'm pretty sure you can find quite a few cases of people's weapons being used against them and inflicting even more carnage. Not saying that's a case against self defense, but you're making a pretty stupid statement.

Not that this whole debate hasn't be reduced to absurdity already.

It's like watching crippled kids fight.


That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

wtf mods. If I tossed this into the tfd queue id prob get it deleted. Way to troll.
 
2013-09-17 09:34:39 PM

feckingmorons: That is simply untrue.

The Clackamas Town Center shooting was stopped by an armed civilian. He however didn't shoot the gunman, the criminal fled after seeing the armed citizen.
Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

Those are the first two I could think of off the top of my head.


There was also the loony religion of peace guy that started shooting up the Israeli airline (El Al ?) ticket booth at LAX. He got a few shots off and was immediately blasted dead by private security.
 
2013-09-17 09:35:16 PM

feckingmorons: DoctorCal: Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.

The most conservative estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 preventions per year. The Brady Foundation number is more like 1 million.

I think it is twenty billion. I can make up estimates of things that never happened just as well as anyone else.

What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?


It's determined differently in different studies.
 
2013-09-17 09:41:07 PM

feckingmorons: DoctorCal: Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.

The most conservative estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 preventions per year. The Brady Foundation number is more like 1 million.

I think it is twenty billion. I can make up estimates of things that never happened just as well as anyone else.

What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?


Like crimes that don't happen because a civilian had a gun?
 
2013-09-17 09:41:27 PM

DoctorCal: What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?

It's determined differently in different studies.


Is it a crime against women or a minority by a white male the numbers are inflated by a factor of 1732%
 
2013-09-17 09:44:03 PM

NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.


I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.
 
2013-09-17 09:44:56 PM

feckingmorons: 2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence.  Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.

I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.


Thank you for your rather long form agreement.
 
2013-09-17 09:47:17 PM

NewportBarGuy: NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.


I'm not against that. You can probably legitly blame the pro gun folks, but at the moment most mental health budgets are getting decimated. If you can't treat folks who need help I don't see how we are going to fund them to keep guns from them.
 
2013-09-17 09:48:43 PM
The tautology of the argument.. ah.

Define the terms to win the argument. Exclude anything that busts the general idea because it's outside the definition.

b2theory: Is it true that guns are used defensively more often than to commit homicide?

/not trolling


The purpose of a defensive gun use is to stop a crime. Not kill someone. A lot of statistics try and prove guns aren't used defensively by citing the lack of homicides by defensive gun uses. But yes, the estimation puts defensive gun uses higher than homicides.
 
2013-09-17 09:49:49 PM

NewportBarGuy: NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.


OH MY GOD!!1!  GUN GRABBER!!  WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION DOES IT SAY I HAVE TO WAIT!!  I HAVE A RIGHT TO ANY FIREARM NOW NOW NOW!!!

As long as DC is afraid of a lobbying group that takes that position, we're screwed.
 
2013-09-17 09:51:57 PM
I'm not sure you could tell.
 
2013-09-17 09:53:05 PM

Lionel Mandrake: feckingmorons: DoctorCal: Triumph: What a coincidence - not a single mass shooting was stopped by gun control laws.

The most conservative estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 preventions per year. The Brady Foundation number is more like 1 million.

I think it is twenty billion. I can make up estimates of things that never happened just as well as anyone else.

What is the methodology of making up numbers of things that don't happen?

Like crimes that don't happen because a civilian had a gun?


I don't see anyone making up that particular metric. I see plenty of people who were in the midst of the commission of a crime and used a firearm defend themselves or their family. See Also.
 
2013-09-17 09:54:21 PM

NewportBarGuy: NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.


Also not that I think any of that is a bad idea, because I ddon't, but would it of prevented any mass shooting you can think of?
 
2013-09-17 09:54:58 PM

NickelP: Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed.


Yeah.  It's usually the shooter killing himself.
 
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