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(AP)   Navy Yard shooter suffered from mental health issues, heard voices. Gee, where have I heard that before?   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 537
    More: Obvious, mental healths  
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3613 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2013 at 1:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-17 02:25:56 PM  
SSRI
 
2013-09-17 02:26:12 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: You've mis-labeled your fallatial straw-boater hat: He's not bringing a knife to a gun-fight. He goes stabby before the fight starts. Hell, he might even go stabby before the cop even realizes the guy's there. Altogether different.


The straw man argument is: He'd go on a mass homicidal rage with a knife, in order to gain access to a gun. That's absurdity and obfuscation at it's finest.

He brought a gun because of it's ease of use. The point and click interface is so easy, even a cavemen can do it.
 
2013-09-17 02:26:13 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: birdmanesq: dittybopper: One problem: He exploited the Castle Wolfenstein Loophole (ie., he appears to have taken guns off of the guards he killed). What would have stopped him from, say, killing a guard manually with a knife or bludgeon of some sort and then taking the gun and killing others?

Isn't there some useful old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight that might be applicable here?

You've mis-labeled your fallatial straw-boater hat: He's not bringing a knife to a gun-fight. He goes stabby before the fight starts. Hell, he might even go stabby before the cop even realizes the guy's there. Altogether different.


Yeah, I'm going to be real honest here, I'm not willing to do what it takes to prevent stealth ninja attacks on law-enforcement officers in order to steal their guns in order to go on a shooting rampage.

I'm just going to draw the line there as being to remote in probability to really be worried about.
 
2013-09-17 02:27:20 PM  

mediablitz: He worked for a subcontractor to HP. He had a secret clearance. That's how he got on the base.


Is there a newer article that spelled this out? I had heard that he still had his secret clearance, but it was my understanding (from a possibly out of date article) that the stolen ID that he had is what actually got him through the gate.
 
2013-09-17 02:27:25 PM  

mediablitz: He worked for a subcontractor to HP. He had a secret clearance. That's how he got on the base.


you understand that you don't necessarily need a "secret" level of clearance to make it onto the naval yard. you will need identification, but in order to get that identification, you need to have a background check and brief investigation to make sure you're not lying or a threat, right?
 
2013-09-17 02:28:41 PM  

stovepipe: LOL

[i.imgur.com image 850x441]


Proof positive that when gun crimes happen, the first thing the gun nutters do is muddy the waters in an attempt to sway the argument into absurdity before continuing. If they can derail the argument from it's core principles, we sway far from the actual argument.

People hate me because I keep directing it all back to the real arguments, pointing out their fallacies and flacidities.
 
2013-09-17 02:28:46 PM  
jumping on the bandwagon of blaming "crazy people" seems to be really popular, but I have a better idea.
follow the logical line of reasoning that anyone who would commit a mass shooting like that is probably stupid, so I think it's a better idea to ban people with an IQ below 100 from owning guns
who's with me?
 
2013-09-17 02:29:01 PM  

somedude210: mediablitz: He had a secret clearance. Are you nitpicking the term "military base"?

he had clearance. But is this what the military defines as "secret" (most DoD researchers need this) or "top secret" (few peons need/have this, mostly an exec. thing) or simply the initial background checks and whatnot so you can be given access to a military installation (everybody goes though this)

or what the media defines as clearance: "he worked for the military and it says he had a background check...OMG HE KNEW ABOUT AREA 51 STUFF!!!!"

like the media and their understanding of different firearms, they also don't fully grasp the understanding of how clearance works in the military.


I have no idea why your are rambling on with your "check out how cool I think I am" shiat. I was in the military 6 years. Submarines. Sonar Sup. Blab on to impress someone else.

He had a secret clearance. It gave him access to the base for the work he was doing as a sub contractor. No one is saying it's some sort of James Bond shiat. Just they GAVE HIM CLEARANCE.

Good enough? Jesus...
 
2013-09-17 02:29:24 PM  
pretty sure the solution is more guns
 
2013-09-17 02:29:44 PM  

ahab: Oh goody, now YOU need to get your facts straight. There was no rifle involved according to the most recent reports (shotgun and two handguns),


So not only did he not have an automatic rifle, he didn't have a rifle period? I'm still not seeing how that show he was allowed to buy automatic weapons.

The clearance item I'm looking up. Sounds like there's an updated article somewhere I missed.
 
2013-09-17 02:29:50 PM  

Panatheist: jumping on the bandwagon of blaming "crazy people" seems to be really popular, but I have a better idea.
follow the logical line of reasoning that anyone who would commit a mass shooting like that is probably stupid, so I think it's a better idea to ban people with an IQ below 100 from owning guns
who's with me?


The NRA nutriders would be without their preciouses if this were true.
 
2013-09-17 02:31:07 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: ahab: Oh goody, now YOU need to get your facts straight. There was no rifle involved according to the most recent reports (shotgun and two handguns),

So not only did he not have an automatic rifle, he didn't have a rifle period? I'm still not seeing how that show he was allowed to buy automatic weapons.

The clearance item I'm looking up. Sounds like there's an updated article somewhere I missed.


You said he stole a rifle.  He did no such thing.  As for the clearance/CAC issue, here's a link for you.
 
2013-09-17 02:31:08 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: ikanreed: Owning a gun increases the likelihood that you will kill someone illegally, rather substantially.

How much is 'rather substantially'?


2.7 times more likely according to Kellermann, et al. (1993).
 
2013-09-17 02:33:04 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: PsiChick: Maybe we could try educating the public on schizophrenia symptoms and advising them to see mental health professionals\doctors.

Nothing like telling the uneducated masses about symptoms to watch for to explain someone's behavior. I mean, it worked so well for Salem, what could go wrong?


Yes, education on the symptoms of depression has led to nothing but witchhunts.

/Seriously. No, that does not always happen.
 
2013-09-17 02:33:08 PM  

mediablitz: It gave him access to the base for the work he was doing as a sub contractor.


Presumably the guys at the gate perform a check somewhat more stringent than "Are you allowed to be here?", and he had to show some sort of ID. All the reports I've seen so far say he stole the ID, but apparently that's wrong.
 
2013-09-17 02:33:42 PM  

mediablitz: ahab: I haven't seen any reports that he had a criminal record.

Yeah. He had a noise dispute with his downstairs neighbor in Texas and shot through his floor (her roof) while she was home. They could only charge him with unlawful discharge of a firearm.


He also shot the tires out of some guy's car in Seattle, but the cops "lost" the paperwork and didn't file charges.
How convenient.
Farker should have lost his license AND guns after the second incident.
 
2013-09-17 02:33:47 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Obviously his legal access to guns isn't the problem. Right?

No, his legal access to guns IS the problem, coupled with lack of reporting of dangerous behavior and poor treatment of said individuals.


He knifes his neighbor, whom he knows owns several unsecured firearms (let's say the neighbor's a bachelor; no kids in the house ever).  He then uses those guns to go on the rampage.

So, do we go so far as to alert all the neighbors about this guy?  I'm sure most already knew.
 
2013-09-17 02:34:09 PM  

birdmanesq: But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.


How about no fees? Once they are in place, there would be nothing to stop some shiatbag politician from raising the fees to a "more reasonable" level to institute a backdoor ban. If you don't believe such a thing would ever happen, just take a look at cigarette taxes. The government couldn't ban them either, so they did the next best thing.
 
2013-09-17 02:34:10 PM  

I_C_Weener: lewismarktwo: HST's Dead Carcass: Kit Fister: See you all on TFD/another TF-only thread. The liters are here.

Dude, I value your opinion in these matters. Without your level headed approach, it's gonna be a madhouse around these parts.

/but I do understand why you want to jettison into the ricepaddies.

The best thing about these posts is that some TFers think that their bullshiat forum talk means something.


Don't forget to try out Totalfark Discussion.  Stay away from the Spam though.  I think its spoiled.


blogs.phillymag.com Thanks for the free upgrade!
 
2013-09-17 02:34:48 PM  

Maud Dib: mediablitz: ahab: I haven't seen any reports that he had a criminal record.

Yeah. He had a noise dispute with his downstairs neighbor in Texas and shot through his floor (her roof) while she was home. They could only charge him with unlawful discharge of a firearm.

He also shot the tires out of some guy's car in Seattle, but the cops "lost" the paperwork and didn't file charges.
How convenient.
Farker should have lost his license AND guns after the second incident.


So what you're saying is, he had no criminal record.  There were two arrests, 6 years apart, and neither one led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.
 
2013-09-17 02:34:51 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Fissile: You splain it, John Galt.

I'll get right on that, right after you 'splain how buying a shotgun and stealing a rifle means he was allowed to buy automatic weapons, and how stealing an ID means he was allowed into the facility.

/I'm assuming you mean 'legally allowed', as in he had permission. If not, never mind, I misread something.


============

Here's the BBC version of the story:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24129442   He had access to the base.  It's known that he stole one of the handguns, so presumably, he possessed the other guns legally.   All the while this was a guy who had a leprechaun on his shoulder who was whispering in his ear, "Burn 'em!  Burn them all!"    Unless you you wanna believe that the BBC is part of Obama's Murican hatin conspiracy, I mean Alex Jones says so.
 
2013-09-17 02:35:31 PM  

ahab: You said he stole a rifle. He did no such thing. As for the clearance/CAC issue, here's a link for you.


Thanks for that article. Seems I was wrong on the rifle, and the ID card.

birdmanesq: Kellermann


Oh dear lord. That study was as farked up as the Brady report.
 
2013-09-17 02:35:41 PM  

doyner: Ennuipoet: This thread is dangerously close to being a rational discussion of the issue.  That should last about eight seconds into hitting the Main Page.

You're a goddamned clairvoyant.


Not a wizard, just a long time Farker.
 
2013-09-17 02:37:08 PM  

Fissile: Here's the BBC version of the story


Thanks.
 
2013-09-17 02:37:16 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: birdmanesq: Kellermann

Oh dear lord. That study was as farked up as the Brady report.


I love to throw out Kellermann to provoke all of the Lott disciples.
 
2013-09-17 02:37:40 PM  

pacified: pretty sure the solution is more guns


Except, in this case he shot guys with guns and ended up with....moar guns!
 
2013-09-17 02:37:41 PM  
www.federaljack.com

The Navy Yard shooting didn't actually happen. Those are trained actors and special effects crews on TV.  You're all being lied to by the establishment, manipulated so that Obama can pass tighter gun control regulations.
 
2013-09-17 02:38:20 PM  

somedude210: mediablitz: He worked for a subcontractor to HP. He had a secret clearance. That's how he got on the base.

you understand that you don't necessarily need a "secret" level of clearance to make it onto the naval yard. you will need identification, but in order to get that identification, you need to have a background check and brief investigation to make sure you're not lying or a threat, right?


The bare-bones check for pretty much all Fed workplaces is the "Public Trust" check which basically looks to see if there are any active arrest warrants for murder or bank robbery. He'll, I "know a guy" who had a felony drug conviction and was granted a Secret. The conviction happened about 20 years before his investigation and he disclosed it, but still, it ain't a deal-breaker.
 
2013-09-17 02:38:43 PM  

I_C_Weener: pacified: pretty sure the solution is more guns

Except, in this case he shot guys with guns and ended up with....moar guns!


There can be only one ... Gunowner.
 
2013-09-17 02:38:57 PM  
off to the new tfd extension. Have fun guys.
 
2013-09-17 02:39:16 PM  

birdmanesq: I love to throw out Kellermann to provoke all of the Lott disciples.


>:|
 
2013-09-17 02:39:49 PM  

AGremlin: Obligatory:

[thumbnails.hulu.com image 512x288]

Minister: He was a loner, and a quiet young man. He attended church, and Sunday School. I remember he was always very polite.

Ted Koppel: Do you believe he killed Buckwheat?

Minister: Oh, yes. Definitely. That's all he talked about.

Ted Koppel: John David Stutts graduated from Unionville High School.
Ted Koppel: His classmates called him "the loner."
Ted Koppel: Stutts was a member of the Key Club...
Ted Koppel: The Audio-Visual Squad...
Ted Koppel: And president of the Future Assassins of America.

Ted Koppel: It's no wonder that his classmates chose him, "Most Likely to Kill Buckwheat."

Gas Station Attendant: [in New England accent] Sure, I remember Stutts. He was a loner, but a real hard worker. I mean, he pumped the gas, he checked the oil, he washed the windows. Nice kid.

Ted Koppel: Do you believe he killed Buckwheat?

Man: Oh, yes, definitely. That's all he talked about. I remember one day I says, uh, "Stutts, why are you working so hard?" He says, "'Cause I'm saving up to buy a gun, so I can kill Buckwheat." [shrugs]


Thank you , I had that stuck in my head all day.
/=)
 
2013-09-17 02:40:26 PM  

PsiChick: HST's Dead Carcass: PsiChick: Maybe we could try educating the public on schizophrenia symptoms and advising them to see mental health professionals\doctors.

Nothing like telling the uneducated masses about symptoms to watch for to explain someone's behavior. I mean, it worked so well for Salem, what could go wrong?

Yes, education on the symptoms of depression has led to nothing but witchhunts.

/Seriously. No, that does not always happen.


No, not in recent history at all.

All I'm saying is we apply the term 'Professional' to individuals for a reason. Hell, how many people still think Obama is a Muslim? After all the evidence to the contrary they still insist upon this. And you want to empower people to make clinical diagnoses of other people that they may or may not have agendas against?
 
2013-09-17 02:40:54 PM  

ahab: mediablitz: ahab: mediablitz: Kit Fister: doyner: Getting a secret clearance requires a check of arrest history and mental health. If he was granted one with this history then I think we've found the primary failure in the system for this case.

This.

He was a sub contractor. I doubt a secret clearance was run. I do wonder though.

I do some work for the State, but it is in a Federal building here. I had to complete the full background check, finger printing, surveys sent to friends hoop jumping just to be able to go into the building a couple days a month.

I would *think* the same would be needed for a military installation with civilian employees.

I think I took for granted back in my military days that they had gone back and talked to my classmates/teachers etc. when I got my sonar shack level clear as sonar supervisor. Because it took next to nothing to get on base. An ID and nothing else. No car inspection, no metal detectors etc.

I'm betting rules are being re-written TODAY.

You don't need a secret clearance to get on base at the Navy Yard.  He had one as part of his job, according to his employer.   Link

Jesus. He was in trouble while he was a reservist, had a record, and still got a secret clearance?!?!? I knew you didn't need a secret clearance to get on base, but holy shiat. He DID get one.

Quality work, background checkers...

I haven't seen any reports that he had a criminal record.


He's black so it's automatically assumed among Conservatives.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-09-17 02:40:55 PM  

mediablitz: I wrote some code a while back for the state. It involved the unemployment department and county jails. If you are arrested, the county jail database notifies unemployment overnight (there is an "availability" issue that arises if you are collecting unemployment and become incarcerated). Account is flagged, person collecting unemployment can't file for benefits until the issue is investigated.

If we as a country agreed to beef up background checks, someone arrested for a violent crime (domestic violence, for example) could have a simiar issue created that prevented that person from temporarily purchasing a weapon (not perfect, I realize, but just throwing out a simple scenario) until investigated. This slows down the "I'm angry, now I'm going to go buy a gun and plan my revenge" killer.

There are many simple measaures we could take as a country to lessen violent crime. None of them have to involve taking everyones guns permanently.


One of my current projects for the hospital is to comply with laws related to state notification for involuntary admission for psych treatment. I wonder if it'd be easy to sidestep such by trying to purchase in another state unless somehow the states agreed on one farking thing about information sharing without it being from (or managed by) the feds. STATES RIGHTS and all, but some things need to go across state lines.
 
2013-09-17 02:41:04 PM  
The bible. You read it in the bible.

What do I win?
 
2013-09-17 02:41:44 PM  

Coco LaFemme: I'll copypasta my response from the red-lit thread:

The lobbyists in this country can't make any money off better gun control and access to better mental health care, so there's no chance in hell we're ever going to see a national conversation about how letting the mentally ill get access to firearms is a bad idea.


THIS
When lawmaking is turned into an industry, the will of the people shall be drowned out by the will of the checkbook.
 
2013-09-17 02:42:23 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: The bare-bones check for pretty much all Fed workplaces is the "Public Trust" check which basically looks to see if there are any active arrest warrants for murder or bank robbery. He'll, I "know a guy" who had a felony drug conviction and was granted a Secret. The conviction happened about 20 years before his investigation and he disclosed it, but still, it ain't a deal-breaker.


rule of thumb normally is to admit to everything when filling out the forms so that they don't flag you when they find it in the investigation
 
2013-09-17 02:42:24 PM  

ahab: As for the clearance/CAC issue, here's a link for you.


FTA: And he did have a CAC (common access card)

God, no wonder the guy went crazy.

/"?$%#*!! Whaddya mean I provided the wrong certificate?!?"
 
2013-09-17 02:43:02 PM  
Thankfully, guns were restricted in that facility.

We wouldn't want any otherwise-responsible people "taking the law into their own hands," and stopping him before he got his full measure of rampage on, now would we?
 
2013-09-17 02:43:33 PM  

umad: just take a look at cigarette taxes. The government couldn't ban them either, so they did the next best thing.


And now nobody smokes because they're too expensive!  I mean, a pack of cigs is more than a six pack of beer!
 
2013-09-17 02:45:09 PM  
Some of you probably think George Zimmerman shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either.
 
2013-09-17 02:45:28 PM  

Latinwolf: Quality work, background checkers...

I haven't seen any reports that he had a criminal record.

He's black so it's automatically assumed among Conservatives.


He had run-ins with the law but none of them (reported so far) resulted in a conviction. he actually fired a gun in the house in what is reported to be a noise dispute with a downstairs neighbor but no charges were pressed when he claimed he was just cleaning his gun and it went off by accident.
 
2013-09-17 02:45:40 PM  
As long as gun owners only shoot other gun owners I don't mind them shooting people quite as much.

Its when they shoot regular good people it becomes a problem
 
2013-09-17 02:46:01 PM  
Also FTA:

The Experts Inc, which was helping service the Navy Marine Corps Intranet

My God. He was trying to fix NMCI.

Folks, this explains it all.
 
2013-09-17 02:46:07 PM  
Better mental health care might save more lives than more gun control.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-09-17 02:46:17 PM  

Bacontastesgood: umad: just take a look at cigarette taxes. The government couldn't ban them either, so they did the next best thing.

And now nobody smokes because they're too expensive!  I mean, a pack of cigs is more than a six pack of beer!


To be fair, a pack of smokes would last me significantly longer than a 6-pack of beer.
 
2013-09-17 02:46:47 PM  

Fissile: Noticeably F.A.T.: Fissile: You splain it, John Galt.

I'll get right on that, right after you 'splain how buying a shotgun and stealing a rifle means he was allowed to buy automatic weapons, and how stealing an ID means he was allowed into the facility.

/I'm assuming you mean 'legally allowed', as in he had permission. If not, never mind, I misread something.

============

Here's the BBC version of the story:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24129442   He had access to the base.  It's known that he stole one of the handguns, so presumably, he possessed the other guns legally.   All the while this was a guy who had a leprechaun on his shoulder who was whispering in his ear, "Burn 'em!  Burn them all!"    Unless you you wanna believe that the BBC is part of Obama's Murican hatin conspiracy, I mean Alex Jones says so.


In which paragraph of the BBC version of the story is an automatic rifle, or legal ability to acquire such, mentioned?

/I have read that the background check for NFA restricted devices is restrictive enough that his prior arrests alone may have been sufficient for the ATF to disqualify him.
//I, however, have not been able to corroborate that claim.
 
2013-09-17 02:48:03 PM  
I heard them alot back in the 80's. "Don't look back, yesterday's gone, don't turn away, you can take it on ."
 
2013-09-17 02:48:31 PM  

monoski: he actually fired a gun in the house in what is reported to be a noise dispute with a downstairs neighbor but no charges were pressed when he claimed he was just cleaning his gun and it went off by accident.


And this excuse is so lame, it should be precedence enough to remove all firearms from the home. I know it's been used by many people, supposedly responsible gun owners. If they are so responsible, they wouldn't be cleaning a loaded gun.

It's as lame as claiming your little brother was using your MMO account when you ninja looted a raid!
 
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