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(AP)   Navy Yard shooter suffered from mental health issues, heard voices. Gee, where have I heard that before?   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 537
    More: Obvious, mental healths  
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3613 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2013 at 1:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-17 01:14:04 PM  

gilgigamesh: Ennuipoet: This thread is dangerously close to being a rational discussion of the issue.  That should last about eight seconds into hitting the Main Page.

Gun threads for me always show up blood red. Not a single post in this thread is Farkied red, so I think the usual suspects are steering clear of this one.


we haven't hit the main page yet. it's scheduled to go live at 1:48.  All the usual suspects are not TFers that I've seen.
 
2013-09-17 01:14:47 PM  

Fark It: HST's Dead Carcass: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What about those that will not seek help simple because they want to keep their guns? And who will be the ones that will say when or if someone can get their rights restored once they get diagnosed?

Tin Foil Hat time: wouldn't be simple to use that as a gun grab? 1 in 10 people are are on antidepressants right now and climbing. That's one tenth of the population that would have to turn over their guns right now. And that's just for antidepressants. Fun times will happen when we add paranoia to the list of reasons to remove the guns! All those preppers would really go off.

I have more than a few gun nut friends. They are all adamant about not having Gun Registrations. They have a myriad of reasons (The Guvernment shouldn't know how many guns I have) and the like, but the truth is: They'd have to pay a registration fee every year, and if that were the case, some of them would be bankrupt immediately.

I'm sorry, but why is it unreasonable to not want to pay a fee to the government for permission to exercise your constitutional rights?  What happens when when they establish a registry, and then decide on a blanket ban of all semi-automatic weapons?


Damn straight! Why do I have to register my car every year? And my boat? And my Hog? And my camper? F those Government assholes prying into my personal life! They're probably taxing me on all those things, too! They have no right to impede my success and collection of personal luxuries!!
 
2013-09-17 01:15:03 PM  

DGS: ahab: birdmanesq: dittybopper: One problem: He exploited the Castle Wolfenstein Loophole (ie., he appears to have taken guns off of the guards he killed). What would have stopped him from, say, killing a guard manually with a knife or bludgeon of some sort and then taking the gun and killing others?

Isn't there some useful old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight that might be applicable here?

But he played a lot of violent video games, so he was probably really good at sneaking up on people with a knife and stabbing them in order to steal their guns.

I know that's how I learned.

/HI NSA GUY


Dude, I'm the bestest player in battlefield 3, clearly I can fly an attack helicopter and kill dem doods

/HI ATF GUY
 
2013-09-17 01:15:10 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: dittybopper: One problem: He exploited the Castle Wolfenstein Loophole (ie., he appears to have taken guns off of the guards he killed). What would have stopped him from, say, killing a guard manually with a knife or bludgeon of some sort and then taking the gun and killing others?

Ah, yes, the whole: "If he wanted to kill someone, he coulda used a knife" theory. Well, a knife is a up close and personal weapon that needs much more effort and skill to use properly than a gun with it's point and kill method of use. Proximity being a big part of the ease of gathering new weapons. If the guards have guns and he has a knife, well, what's that old saying about how he's coming to the fight?

But, yes, perfectly logical argument that's not obfuscating or propping up straw men to make a point.

/keep on farking that chicken!


OK, so why not a crossbow?  Or perhaps a compound bow?  Or perhaps a 3D printed handgun?  Or perhaps a zip gun made from parts he bought at Lowes or Home Depot.  Heck, if you want to make an improvised 12 gauge shotgun, the information is out there, and if your goal is to kill a guard and get his gun, it will work just dandy for that.

All of those things can be acquired even if you are felon, and all are lethal.  And he had the element of surprise.

Now, try to tell me where I am wrong.
 
2013-09-17 01:15:50 PM  

Kit Fister: An enumerated right should not have a fee associated with it. MI has a mandatory registration on all handguns. It has not yet once been used to grab guns. I'm OK with a registration because, well, frankly, if the government wants to know what guns I have, they can find out in other ways anyway, and having a registration improves my chances that I'll get my shiat back if they ever get stolen.


This is important. Registration is fine (like voting), but shouldn't cost money.
 
2013-09-17 01:16:19 PM  

Kit Fister: see, we were having a perfectly polite, serious conversation and then HST's dead carcass showed up and shat all over it.


I walk in the realm of hyperbole and circumstance. I try to post on both sides of the issues, commenting on pros and cons. Plus, I'm just getting y'all ready for the herp and derp of Liters.
 
2013-09-17 01:16:59 PM  

Kit Fister: HST's Dead Carcass: have more than a few gun nut friends. They are all adamant about not having Gun Registrations. They have a myriad of reasons (The Guvernment shouldn't know how many guns I have) and the like, but the truth is: They'd have to pay a registration fee every year, and if that were the case, some of them would be bankrupt immediately.

An enumerated right should not have a fee associated with it.  MI has a mandatory registration on all handguns. It has not yet once been used to grab guns. I'm OK with a registration because, well, frankly, if the government wants to know what guns I have, they can find out in other ways anyway, and having a registration improves my chances that I'll get my shiat back if they ever get stolen.


I don't know that licensing and registration needs to be associated with a fee. Though, certainly, it makes it more financially self-sustaining if it was.

But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.
 
2013-09-17 01:17:08 PM  

xanadian: doyner: birdmanesq: But the one thing that I would say about this Navy Yard thing in contrast to Sandy Hook is that for the most part you can strip some of the emotional response out of it because there aren't 20 dead kids.

Yeah, but in my case I have no kids of my own and I was at work at NAVSEA yesterday. And I knew one of the victims...so I'm a bit more emotionally invested this go-around.

oh

sorry, man.  :(


It is what it is.  It probably won't really sink in until the funeral or I go back into 197.  I'm nowhere close to being as damaged as most folks there.

But for this discussion that's really irrelevant.  Fortunately the folks who will craft and implement policy are pretty level-headed.  Some things will get better, coming to work will be more inconvenient, people will complain, and life will go on.  Our system is oddly secure and stable.
 
2013-09-17 01:17:42 PM  

doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?


I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.  An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.
 
2013-09-17 01:17:42 PM  

Fark It: I'm sorry, but why is it unreasonable to not want to pay a fee to the government for permission to exercise your constitutional rights? What happens when when they establish a registry, and then decide on a blanket ban of all semi-automatic weapons?


Your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

1. There should be no fee
2. Who is "they"?
 
2013-09-17 01:17:48 PM  
birdmanesq:
I mean, I grew up in rural Illinois. I started shooting before I started school. I look around at the folks I knew growing up--many of whom are incredibly responsible gun owners--and certainly wouldn't want to create some system of regulations and background checks that would prevent them from enjoying their pasttime relatively hassle free.

I grew up in western Pennsylvania where it was much the same.  My uncle took me out shooting when I was 8, prior to that I had a bb gun.  I'm surrounded by a lot of people who love to hunt deer, and while that's not my cup of tea, I wouldn't want to take away their pastime.  I'm also a responsible gun owner myself, though I only have one 12 gauge and it rarely sees any use.  The balance between allowing responsible gun owners to pursue their hobbies and keeping guns out of the hands of nutters isn't all that difficult, really.

How's this for an idea:  Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth.  Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off.  Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you.  Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one.  That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.
 
2013-09-17 01:18:27 PM  
there be some good trolling here, yo
 
2013-09-17 01:18:35 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: How has this changed your opinion?

I am not trolling, I am truly honestly wondering if your opinion of Guns has changed at all regarding this since it was more personal to you than the rest of us.


It hasn't changed my opinion on guns or mental health.  It did, however, reinforce my views on the DoD contractor culture.
 
2013-09-17 01:19:44 PM  
Dammit, HST and Dittybopper. why do you have to come in and shiat all over a reasonable thread?
 
2013-09-17 01:19:50 PM  

dittybopper: OK, so why not a crossbow? Or perhaps a compound bow? Or perhaps a 3D printed handgun? Or perhaps a zip gun made from parts he bought at Lowes or Home Depot. Heck, if you want to make an improvised 12 gauge shotgun, the information is out there, and if your goal is to kill a guard and get his gun, it will work just dandy for that.


True story:

In high school some kid thought I'd be an easy target to pick on. I knocked him out with one punch in front of everyone. I'll admit it was a lucky shot and a few weeks later tried to come at me again and I whooped him fiercely that time (couldn't get the knock out punch again, soM I kept beating him). He swore he would get me back, but never did.

I found out after high school he shot his dad in the chest TWICE with a crossbow. His dad had been molesting him his whole life and he was acting out at school and all sorts of other issues (including his fights with me). He went to prison for life.

When I watched Billy Madison, I was probably the ONLY person in the theater that didn't laugh when Adam Sandler called Steve Buschemi. That hit a little close to home for me.
 
2013-09-17 01:19:53 PM  

ahab: doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?

I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.  An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.


An arrest for a bar fight is one thing.  Multiple arrests for gun-related anger issues is something else entirely.
 
2013-09-17 01:20:18 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: Damn straight! Why do I have to register my car every year? And my boat? And my Hog? And my camper? F those Government assholes prying into my personal life! They're probably taxing me on all those things, too! They have no right to impede my success and collection of personal luxuries!!


You didn't answer my question, and owning a gun is an enumerated right.  Driving your car on public roads isn't.

mediablitz: 2. Who is "they"?


Gun control advocates, via the legislature.
 
2013-09-17 01:21:20 PM  

birdmanesq: But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.


1. A gatling gun does not count as fully automatic.
2. Fully automatics already cost money to register, not to mention the exhorbitant cost to own. $250 per gun, plus the cost of the weapon, including federal registration.
 
2013-09-17 01:21:26 PM  

birdmanesq: Kit Fister: HST's Dead Carcass: have more than a few gun nut friends. They are all adamant about not having Gun Registrations. They have a myriad of reasons (The Guvernment shouldn't know how many guns I have) and the like, but the truth is: They'd have to pay a registration fee every year, and if that were the case, some of them would be bankrupt immediately.

An enumerated right should not have a fee associated with it.  MI has a mandatory registration on all handguns. It has not yet once been used to grab guns. I'm OK with a registration because, well, frankly, if the government wants to know what guns I have, they can find out in other ways anyway, and having a registration improves my chances that I'll get my shiat back if they ever get stolen.

I don't know that licensing and registration needs to be associated with a fee. Though, certainly, it makes it more financially self-sustaining if it was.

But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.


Don't recall which comedian had the bit, but he said (paraphrasing) "tax bullets. That'll make a mother farker think twice. Make that bullet 100 bucks".

You can own a fully auto gatling, but bullets are $500 a pop...
 
2013-09-17 01:21:30 PM  

doyner: ahab: doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?

I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.  An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.

An arrest for a bar fight is one thing.  Multiple arrests for gun-related anger issues is something else entirely.


But, but, but, it's his constitutional right to be angry with firearms! 1st and 2nd! Recognize!!
 
2013-09-17 01:22:14 PM  

Fark It: I'm sorry, but why is it unreasonable to not want to pay a fee to the government for permission to exercise your constitutional rights? What happens when when they establish a registry, and then decide on a blanket ban of all semi-automatic weapons?


Two things: (1) It's pretty established at this point that the government is allowed to place taxes and fees on firearms and firearm licensing. It's constitutional to do that. So my guess is that you'll get some sort of "undue burden" formulation on whether the fee scheme is unconstitutional or not. (2) What happens if they decide on a blanket ban of all semi-automatic weapons anyway? I mean, the reality is that the gun-grabbing registry paranoia doesn't make a whole lot of sense--blanket gun bans face serious political and legal challenges that are not going to be overcome on a whim.
 
2013-09-17 01:22:17 PM  

doyner: xanadian: doyner: birdmanesq: But the one thing that I would say about this Navy Yard thing in contrast to Sandy Hook is that for the most part you can strip some of the emotional response out of it because there aren't 20 dead kids.

Yeah, but in my case I have no kids of my own and I was at work at NAVSEA yesterday. And I knew one of the victims...so I'm a bit more emotionally invested this go-around.

oh

sorry, man.  :(

It is what it is.  It probably won't really sink in until the funeral or I go back into 197.  I'm nowhere close to being as damaged as most folks there.

But for this discussion that's really irrelevant.  Fortunately the folks who will craft and implement policy are pretty level-headed.  Some things will get better, coming to work will be more inconvenient, people will complain, and life will go on.  Our system is oddly secure and stable.


Can I sponsor your TF?
 
2013-09-17 01:22:56 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: But, but, but, it's his constitutional right to be angry with firearms! 1st and 2nd! Recognize!!


Go home, you're drunk.
 
2013-09-17 01:23:05 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: I have more than a few gun nut friends. They are all adamant about not having Gun Registrations. They have a myriad of reasons (The Guvernment shouldn't know how many guns I have) and the like, but the truth is: They'd have to pay a registration fee every year, and if that were the case, some of them would be bankrupt immediately.


I've put this forward before:

But I like a drivers license system. Just like Commercial/auto/motorcycle weapon owners would have to test every couple of years pay a small fee to have enforcements on their Weapons License.

Something like hand gun/rifle/shotgun/full auto.

Example: Me. I have a few hand guns and a couple rifles in the house. My wife has no interest in the rifles but has a hand gun of her very own. So in order to be legal I would have to take, pass and pay for both Hand Gun and Rifle enforcements while the wife has to get only Hand Gun. Tickets and Jail time for those operating weapons they are not licensed to use without having a training instructor present.

Use the money raised to support the mental healthcare in this country. Maybe a few trained mental healthcare professionals to visit schools? That would be nice wouldn't it?


Main problem: The left hates the idea of picture ids and fees. For some reason they think this is suppression and unfair to minorities. Right just hates anything that keeps guns behind the glass case.
 
2013-09-17 01:23:12 PM  

doyner: ahab: doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?

I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.  An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.

An arrest for a bar fight is one thing.  Multiple arrests for gun-related anger issues is something else entirely.


Two arrests, one of which was for a negligent discharge and neither of which led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.
 
2013-09-17 01:24:15 PM  

dittybopper: OK, so why not a crossbow? Or perhaps a compound bow? Or perhaps a 3D printed handgun? Or perhaps a zip gun made from parts he bought at Lowes or Home Depot. Heck, if you want to make an improvised 12 gauge shotgun, the information is out there, and if your goal is to kill a guard and get his gun, it will work just dandy for that.


Can you show us ONE CASE of someone building their own shotgun/3d gun to go on a mass killing spree?

No? THAT'S your argument. You are ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous, rather than conversin like an adult.
 
2013-09-17 01:24:19 PM  

nekom: How's this for an idea: Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth. Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off. Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you. Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one. That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.


Sure, but that's a case where one problem (being an idiot) would've prevented the shooting due to a second problem (being a nutbar).  It would've been a happy coincidence.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, mind you.  I think if you want a gun, you should know how to properly USE the gun before you hurt yourself or someone else.

/this is coming from a guy who took a hunter's safety course when he was 11.
 
2013-09-17 01:24:19 PM  
Kit Fister:

Can I sponsor your TF?

Appreciated, but unnecessary.  Give it to the first liter that you deem worthy.
 
2013-09-17 01:25:05 PM  

Kit Fister: birdmanesq: But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.

1. A gatling gun does not count as fully automatic.
2. Fully automatics already cost money to register, not to mention the exhorbitant cost to own. $250 per gun, plus the cost of the weapon, including federal registration.


I'm going to regret posting that, right? This is what is going to lead to my downfall as soon as this hits the mainpage...
 
2013-09-17 01:25:37 PM  

xanadian: nekom: How's this for an idea: Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth. Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off. Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you. Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one. That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.

Sure, but that's a case where one problem (being an idiot) would've prevented the shooting due to a second problem (being a nutbar).  It would've been a happy coincidence.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, mind you.  I think if you want a gun, you should know how to properly USE the gun before you hurt yourself or someone else.

/this is coming from a guy who took a hunter's safety course when he was 11.


This. I grew up with guns. I knew by about 5 that you didn't fark around with guns.
 
2013-09-17 01:26:13 PM  

ahab: doyner: ahab: doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?

I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.  An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.

An arrest for a bar fight is one thing.  Multiple arrests for gun-related anger issues is something else entirely.

Two arrests, one of which was for a negligent discharge and neither of which led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.

 
2013-09-17 01:26:41 PM  

birdmanesq: I mean, the reality is that the gun-grabbing registry paranoia doesn't make a whole lot of sense--blanket gun bans face serious political and legal challenges that are not going to be overcome on a whim.


Like warrantless wiretapping, data-mining, the NSA's domestic surveillance program and their interpretation of the Patriot Act, etc.  All you have to do is find a pile of corpses to climb on, then loudly claim to be acting for the children/brave heroes/America, and you're golden.  Hell, confiscation was "on the table" in New York when they deliberated on and drafted the SAFE Act in secret, behind closed doors.

/it's not paranoia if they really can't be trusted
 
2013-09-17 01:26:44 PM  

birdmanesq: Kit Fister: birdmanesq: But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.

1. A gatling gun does not count as fully automatic.
2. Fully automatics already cost money to register, not to mention the exhorbitant cost to own. $250 per gun, plus the cost of the weapon, including federal registration.

I'm going to regret posting that, right? This is what is going to lead to my downfall as soon as this hits the mainpage...


That and your callous disregard of the 10th Amendment.
 
2013-09-17 01:27:33 PM  

doyner: ahab: doyner: ahab: doyner: ahab: Let's not nitpick and say he was arrested twice.  If no charges were filed and/or he wasn't convicted, I still fail to see how that matters.

Because you don't have to be convicted to be denied clearance for it.

Seriously, dude, WTF?

I'm just saying...I know plenty of people with secret clearances.  My entire unit had to get them before we deployed.   An arrest record doesn't disqualify you from getting a secret clearance.  It probably adds a little time onto the adjudication process, but it's not an automatic disqualification.  And when that arrest doesn't lead to a conviction, it's probably a wash at adjudication.

An arrest for a bar fight is one thing.  Multiple arrests for gun-related anger issues is something else entirely.

Two arrests, one of which was for a negligent discharge and neither of which led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.


Oooh, I can use bold text too!
 
2013-09-17 01:27:53 PM  

nekom: How's this for an idea:  Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth.  Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off.  Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you.  Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one.  That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.


You'd have to disarm half the police.

Plus, he could have just made one or more improvised guns, if he was prevented from buying one, and used that to take a real gun from the guards.
 
2013-09-17 01:28:40 PM  
xanadian:
Sure, but that's a case where one problem (being an idiot) would've prevented the shooting due to a second problem (being a nutbar).  It would've been a happy coincidence.

True, but it would act as a bit of a catch-all for people who they can't prove intended to shoot.  Fine, accidental discharge?  Fair enough, but you can't ever have a gun again seeing as how you fail at guns so badly.  Not that I think his story is true, especially in light of what he did yesterday, but they probably didn't have enough evidence to prove he intended to fire the shot.  This would have given them a way to keep guns away from him without needing the burden of proof required for a criminal charge.  There are probably a lot of little thing like that that could help weed out potential crazies.
 
2013-09-17 01:28:49 PM  

birdmanesq: Kit Fister: birdmanesq: But how about a graduated fee structure? You know, your over-under shotgun is free (or a small fee), but your fully-automatic gatling gun costs, oh, dunno, $10,000 a year to register.

1. A gatling gun does not count as fully automatic.
2. Fully automatics already cost money to register, not to mention the exhorbitant cost to own. $250 per gun, plus the cost of the weapon, including federal registration.

I'm going to regret posting that, right? This is what is going to lead to my downfall as soon as this hits the mainpage...


You are. In a big way, heh. We already have the NFA for full-autos, short-barreled shotguns, and destructive devices. Full fingerprinting, background checks, and registration for anything qualifying.

I'm okay with a registration, but for arms that are not NFA and are considered standard small arms for ownership, there should be no fee. However, a back-end tax on firearms to pay for the registration system wouldn't be a problem, plus to help fund healthcare costs...
 
2013-09-17 01:29:58 PM  

nekom: xanadian:
Sure, but that's a case where one problem (being an idiot) would've prevented the shooting due to a second problem (being a nutbar).  It would've been a happy coincidence.

True, but it would act as a bit of a catch-all for people who they can't prove intended to shoot.  Fine, accidental discharge?  Fair enough, but you can't ever have a gun again seeing as how you fail at guns so badly.  Not that I think his story is true, especially in light of what he did yesterday, but they probably didn't have enough evidence to prove he intended to fire the shot.  This would have given them a way to keep guns away from him without needing the burden of proof required for a criminal charge.  There are probably a lot of little thing like that that could help weed out potential crazies.


I know infantry Marines who had negligent discharges in Afghanistan.  They got in all sorts of trouble, but they didn't have their weapons taken away from them.  That's a ridiculous overreaction.
 
2013-09-17 01:31:17 PM  

ahab: Two arrests, one of which was for a negligent discharge and neither of which led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.


I thought I read he WAS convicted of negligent discharge. Looked again, and you are correct. Charged, never convicted.

Also:

"There were mental issues that he sought help for from the VA a number of times. He was ... acting normally during work and then having these episodes for which he was trying to get treatment."


"He said he was hearing voices, he was detached from reality at certain points. He had sought treatment a number of times at a number of places and he was also frustrated there. He claimed he wasn't getting his full VA benefits," Miller said.

Sources say he carried out the attack with three weapons -- an assault rifle, pistol, and shotgun, which was recently purchased at a gun store in Lorton, Virginia, CBS News' Bob Orr reports.

The timing of the firearms purchase is "key" according Miller because "it shows when he went through the 'I'm angry' stage to the 'I'm planning' stage" in the days before the attack.


We have no laws that would prevent him from purchasing weapons. Even if he HAD been convicted, he wouldn't have been prevented. No laws.

But it seems there should be something in place for a person seeking treatment for anger issues and detatchment from reality.
 
2013-09-17 01:32:20 PM  
ahab:
I know infantry Marines who had negligent discharges in Afghanistan.  They got in all sorts of trouble, but they didn't have their weapons taken away from them.  That's a ridiculous overreaction.

Well it's a completely different situation in a warzone.  Seriously, if somebody is so irresponsible that they accidentally discharge a firearm in their own home, do you really want them anywhere near a gun?  We could even allow gun ownership rights to be given back on completion of a gun safety course or some such.

Just a thought.
 
2013-09-17 01:32:30 PM  

ahab: Oooh, I can use bold text too!


Yes, it appears we have both mastered that functionality.  But clearly you're better than me at arguing in circles.

I'll boil it down to this:  I assert that the clearance process should have caught him beforehand, and it's obviously much easier to get a clearance in your neck of the woods than anywhere I've ever been.
 
2013-09-17 01:32:59 PM  

mediablitz: ahab: Two arrests, one of which was for a negligent discharge and neither of which led to charges being filed, let alone a conviction.

I thought I read he WAS convicted of negligent discharge. Looked again, and you are correct. Charged, never convicted.

Also:

"There were mental issues that he sought help for from the VA a number of times. He was ... acting normally during work and then having these episodes for which he was trying to get treatment."


"He said he was hearing voices, he was detached from reality at certain points. He had sought treatment a number of times at a number of places and he was also frustrated there. He claimed he wasn't getting his full VA benefits," Miller said.

Sources say he carried out the attack with three weapons -- an assault rifle, pistol, and shotgun, which was recently purchased at a gun store in Lorton, Virginia, CBS News' Bob Orr reports.

The timing of the firearms purchase is "key" according Miller because "it shows when he went through the 'I'm angry' stage to the 'I'm planning' stage" in the days before the attack.

We have no laws that would prevent him from purchasing weapons. Even if he HAD been convicted, he wouldn't have been prevented. No laws.

But it seems there should be something in place for a person seeking treatment for anger issues and detatchment from reality.


I agree with the last part of that completely.  But the first part shows how ridiculous reporting in the first 24 hours is.  There was no "assault rifle" used at all according to the latest reports.  Shotgun and two handguns.
 
2013-09-17 01:34:13 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I've put this forward before:

But I like a drivers license system. Just like Commercial/auto/motorcycle weapon owners would have to test every couple of years pay a small fee to have enforcements on their Weapons License.

Something like hand gun/rifle/shotgun/full auto.

Example: Me. I have a few hand guns and a couple rifles in the house. My wife has no interest in the rifles but has a hand gun of her very own. So in order to be legal I would have to take, pass and pay for both Hand Gun and Rifle enforcements while the wife has to get only Hand Gun. Tickets and Jail time for those operating weapons they are not licensed to use without having a training instructor present.

Use the money raised to support the mental healthcare in this country. Maybe a few trained mental healthcare professionals to visit schools? That would be nice wouldn't it?


I agree with everything you've put forth. Now, convince the rabid 2nd Amendmenters that this is a good idea.

Hunter Safety Courses are required for hunting licenses, why can't we make some kind of safety course mandatory for owning any kind of firearm?
 
2013-09-17 01:34:54 PM  

dittybopper: nekom: How's this for an idea:  Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth.  Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off.  Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you.  Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one.  That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.

You'd have to disarm half the police.

Plus, he could have just made one or more improvised guns, if he was prevented from buying one, and used that to take a real gun from the guards.


Despite this never happening, you use it as a faux "argument" to prevent having to face the REAL issue. Why not be an adult?
 
2013-09-17 01:35:43 PM  

mediablitz: dittybopper: nekom: How's this for an idea:  Let's assume when he shot through his neighbor's roof he was telling the truth.  Cleaning his gun and it accidentally went off.  Ok, no charges but guess what, no guns for you.  Clearly if you are so stupid that you clean a gun and it goes off, you have no business anywhere near one.  That could have potentially stopped this from happening, maybe.

You'd have to disarm half the police.

Plus, he could have just made one or more improvised guns, if he was prevented from buying one, and used that to take a real gun from the guards.

Despite this never happening, you use it as a faux "argument" to prevent having to face the REAL issue. Why not be an adult?


These straw men don't build themselves, ya know!
 
2013-09-17 01:36:39 PM  

nekom: ahab:
I know infantry Marines who had negligent discharges in Afghanistan.  They got in all sorts of trouble, but they didn't have their weapons taken away from them.  That's a ridiculous overreaction.

Well it's a completely different situation in a warzone.  Seriously, if somebody is so irresponsible that they accidentally discharge a firearm in their own home, do you really want them anywhere near a gun?  We could even allow gun ownership rights to be given back on completion of a gun safety course or some such.

Just a thought.


It'd be pretty easy to argue that if you're as trained in firearm usage as an infantry Marine is, and you still obviously neglect at least two of the 4 fundamental safety rules (weapon not on safe, finger on the trigger) to have a negligent discharge on a routine patrol, that you're much more irresponsible than someone accidentally discharging a firearm in their own home.

doyner: ahab: Oooh, I can use bold text too!

Yes, it appears we have both mastered that functionality.  But clearly you're better than me at arguing in circles.

I'll boil it down to this:  I assert that the clearance process should have caught him beforehand, and it's obviously much easier to get a clearance in your neck of the woods than anywhere I've ever been.


And I assert that the adjudicator probably looked at the arrest record, saw there were no charges filed and no convictions, decided that two incidents 6 years apart didn't make a pattern, and approved the clearance.  And the unit I was in is based in DC, so my neck of the woods was exactly where you are.
 
2013-09-17 01:37:49 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: Hunter Safety Courses are required for hunting licenses, why can't we make some kind of safety course mandatory for owning any kind of firearm?


How about state's requiring militia membership as a co-requisite for gun ownership? Fine, you can own whatever guns you want (provided that they are registered--we need to know what's available when we're mustering the militia) provided you participate in once-annual militia drilling. Which, you know, can focus on gun safety and all that jazz.
 
2013-09-17 01:38:28 PM  

Kit Fister: HST's Dead Carcass: But, but, but, it's his constitutional right to be angry with firearms! 1st and 2nd! Recognize!!

Go home, you're drunk.


It's a valid argument. Being angry at things is a protected right under the 1st amendment. Owning a firearm is protected under the 2nd amendment. Just because those two flavors put together make the worst Reese's candy ever makes no difference, they are both protected and he had every right to both.
 
2013-09-17 01:40:15 PM  

ahab: And I assert that the adjudicator probably looked at the arrest record, saw there were no charges filed and no convictions, decided that two incidents 6 years apart didn't make a pattern, and approved the clearance.


So I guess the third incident yesterday finally makes a pattern, huh?

 And the unit I was in is based in DC, so my neck of the woods was exactly where you are.

Well I guess you just proved my point then.
 
2013-09-17 01:41:50 PM  

birdmanesq: HST's Dead Carcass: Hunter Safety Courses are required for hunting licenses, why can't we make some kind of safety course mandatory for owning any kind of firearm?

How about state's requiring militia membership as a co-requisite for gun ownership? Fine, you can own whatever guns you want (provided that they are registered--we need to know what's available when we're mustering the militia) provided you participate in once-annual militia drilling. Which, you know, can focus on gun safety and all that jazz.


Like, the original intent of the 2nd amendment? The original intent also provided rifles to able bodied men between 18 and 42.

I only fear it would empower the people in the militias into believing they are some kind of police force or facsimile thereof.
 
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