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(Some Dad)   Thoughtful, well written message about how non-parents don't know anything about parenting and should keep their filthy mouths shut   (themattwalshblog.com) divider line 537
    More: Amusing, Lacunar amnesia  
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12831 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2013 at 7:02 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-17 02:32:57 PM  

milkyshirt: e will look you dead in the eye like bring it!

 
2013-09-17 02:34:10 PM  

milkyshirt: He will look you dead in the eye like bring it!


the4threalm.com

/image post fail
 
2013-09-17 02:37:30 PM  
In my observations parents do not get better at parenting the more kids they have.  Yeah maybe we learn some tricks for the second one to use but ultimately a bad parent is a bad parent...in fact it seems to me that by the 3rd and 4th kid  they may actually be WORSE parents (maybe they are exhausted of taking care of them so long or maybe the oldest siblings are helping too much with the upbringing??)

Anyways...

The good parents I've seen are usually good parents from the second their first kid come into their life.

To me that says that some people are just naturally more intuitive and skilled with parenting.

So, ultimately I would say yes, non-parents can do just as well and even know better than those who decide to (or accidentally do) procreate.
 
2013-09-17 02:37:35 PM  

milkyshirt: There's a strange attitude prevalent amongst childless and one-child people, that whatever worked either for them growing up or for their one kid will work for all kids, as though they aren't different people with different personalities. The one guy talking about the imminent-spanking look should try my four year old. He will look you dead in the eye like bring it! and then after the spanking is that all you got? Everyone says time-out is a wimpy form of discipline and I used to agree, until it turned out to be the best method for this kid. Usually produces desirable results in 5 minutes or less.


If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool. My primary point was that consistency is key.
 
2013-09-17 02:38:25 PM  
When I was a toddler and had a meltdown, my mother abandoned the cart, took me home, and didn't take me anywhere. For months. She didn't go shopping until dad was home, and would leave me with him. And would rub it in that she was leaving and I wasn't allowed to go because I couldn't behave in public.

I learned.

/has no kids
//will never have kids
///strongly dislikes kids
 
2013-09-17 02:41:20 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool


I don't know, I think it's important to teach a child at an early age that beating a smaller person into submission is an excellent way of getting what you want. Just don't you do that to a fellow student or that's bullying.
 
2013-09-17 02:42:30 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: milkyshirt: There's a strange attitude prevalent amongst childless and one-child people, that whatever worked either for them growing up or for their one kid will work for all kids, as though they aren't different people with different personalities. The one guy talking about the imminent-spanking look should try my four year old. He will look you dead in the eye like bring it! and then after the spanking is that all you got? Everyone says time-out is a wimpy form of discipline and I used to agree, until it turned out to be the best method for this kid. Usually produces desirable results in 5 minutes or less.

If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool. My primary point was that consistency is key.


Oh no, your previous post made that clear. My post wasn't directed at you, just the thread in general. :)
 
2013-09-17 02:42:37 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: forever_blowing_bubbles: Agent Smiths Laugh: Not my fault if you ignore the obvious. Not my problem either. I'm not responsible for your ignorance of the human animal.

You know how I know you a) don't have children, and b) are full of shiat? Go on guess!

forever_blowing_bubbles: bborchar: Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Obvioulsy you should smack your children every chance you get. That's the only way they'll grow up to be well-adjusted, non-judgemental, totally sane, and the slightest bit self centered like Agent Smith Laughs. I mean, who wouldn't be proud of an upstanding "man" like him?!?

Wanna know how I know you're not psychic?

But you sure do try hard, I'll give you that.

What amuses me is just how completely powerless all of your vitriol is. For all your lashing out, you simply will not ever manage to change my opinions or experiences. So I just get to watch you spin and twirl in anger.


Yes, I must feel as powerless right now as you do when those children ruin your life by being children. You want to smack them and feel like a big man but you just can't!

// This is what it sounds like when doves cry!
 
2013-09-17 02:44:05 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: wickedragon: Of course non-parents are allowed to have opinions on how to rear human mini-beasts.
It's just that hvaing an opinoin and having a valid opinion is two different things.
And having an opinion and loudly voicing that opinion is two different things.

See, if you think blue is a better color for a car than yellow, that's perfectly okay. Going up to every yellow-colored car you see and loudly proclaiming that they suck at owning cars is still stupid.

And, if you think that it sucks that your your car has four wheels and that it would be better if it had three that is perfectly within your right. You're wrong, but so are we all at some point or another. Not voicing your very very stupid opinion will help you convince others that you are not very very stupid. So please keep your mouth shut.

To paraphrase (and translate) Håvamål:

It's better to keep your mouth shut
And let people belive you a fool
than to open your mouth
and remove all doubt.

PS! in old norse it rhymes and is thus more awsome

We'll keep our mouths shut when you show us that you're trying to take care of your hollering offspring. Until then, guess you'll have to deal with the glares and murmurings.


I've never let my children go on a rampage without sitting them down and talking sternly to them, or comforting them, picking them up or similar. I say "I'm sorry" if they seem to be bothering someone. I've never taken a child to a grown-up movie theater or let them run up and down the isle on an airplane. I've never let them destroy anything in public and then pretend like they didn't do it. I don't have a huge problem with my kids throwing temper tantrums, but as the youngest is two and the oldest is three it is a thing that happens.

Now please don't act like I should throw away everything and leave the store because my two year old has a cry for a couple of minutes, or leave the bus because one of them has an off day. I'm doing my best, I care, and I will continue to do so until I die.
I can make the tantrums go away. It almost never takes more than a couple of minutes. But I can't make them not happen, because nobody can.
 
2013-09-17 02:48:14 PM  

Mugato: Agent Smiths Laugh: If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool

I don't know, I think it's important to teach a child at an early age that beating a smaller person into submission is an excellent way of getting what you want. Just don't you do that to a fellow student or that's bullying.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-09-17 02:51:50 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: It's simple: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline.

Oh yes, I forgot, the plural of anecdote is data!

// ...

Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Depends on the kid. Some kids respond well to corporal punishment. Some don't. It takes effort on the part of the parent to find what works on the kid. Once found though it should be applied fairly and consistently, and time should be taken to inform the child of what actions incur what consequences. The consequences may be variable depending on the undesired behavior.

What it should not be is appeasement. Appeasement for bad behavior is not punishment, it's capitulation. It sets a bad precedent that a child will notice and take advantage of with surprising regularity. Appeasement should only happen for good behavior as a reward.

Failing to do anything is also a poor method. Apathy is only slightly less ineffective than appeasement for bad behavior.

Teach them that there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and that acceptable behavior is rewarded and unacceptable behavior is punished. Then be consistent about enforcing both of those results.

But as I said: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline. Which also applies to kid + reward + consistency.


No kid responds well to corporal punishment.  THAT'S lazy parenting.  "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!"  And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.  Consistency and rewards important, and if you consistently say "No, we have to finish the grocery shopping before we leave", you teach the kid that crying and throwing a temper tantrum doesn't get them out of doing something they don't want to do.  Rewarding them afterwards is also very important, because then they learn that if they put up with an activity they don't want, they get to do something they do want to do.  Both of these are something many parents don't do, but I fail to see how someone can look at a mother with a crying kid in the grocery store and automatically know whether or not she is applying these techniques to her child.  Now, if the kid is jumping around and grabbing things, then you can say "okay, that's out of control", but that's pretty rare.
 
2013-09-17 02:54:20 PM  

forever_blowing_bubbles: Agent Smiths Laugh: forever_blowing_bubbles: Agent Smiths Laugh: Not my fault if you ignore the obvious. Not my problem either. I'm not responsible for your ignorance of the human animal.

You know how I know you a) don't have children, and b) are full of shiat? Go on guess!

forever_blowing_bubbles: bborchar: Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Obvioulsy you should smack your children every chance you get. That's the only way they'll grow up to be well-adjusted, non-judgemental, totally sane, and the slightest bit self centered like Agent Smith Laughs. I mean, who wouldn't be proud of an upstanding "man" like him?!?

Wanna know how I know you're not psychic?

But you sure do try hard, I'll give you that.

What amuses me is just how completely powerless all of your vitriol is. For all your lashing out, you simply will not ever manage to change my opinions or experiences. So I just get to watch you spin and twirl in anger.

Yes, I must feel as powerless right now as you do when those children ruin your life by being children. You want to smack them and feel like a big man but you just can't!

// This is what it sounds like when doves cry!


Just keep on spinning those ad hominem attacks. It really is amusing watching you pretend to know everything about me.

What's your next trick?

rkutchjm.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-09-17 03:01:11 PM  

chubby muppet: As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings.  I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown.  You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home.  Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent.  You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby.  But on those bad days you pack it up and go home.  Very very simple.


Late to the party, but congratulations on the new kiddo!!!
:)
 
2013-09-17 03:04:19 PM  
I was just remembering this horrible tantrum that I witnessed in a grocery store last week. You could hear it from every corner, and I encountered it on the chip aisle. The screaming was bad enough, but then there was a string of various vile remarks like "I hate you" and "You're stupid" that were slung in the father's direction. About that time, she let out a yell and rammed the father with the grocery cart at full speed.

/The culprit: the man's wife.
//Their two kids were actually pretty well behaved.
 
2013-09-17 03:04:29 PM  

Fuggin Bizzy: Uranus Is Huge!: It's usually hard to fault a parent when you see their child have a public tantrum... the first time.

Repeated public tantrums indicate a child unfamiliar with consequences.

How can you tell the difference?


You can't, generally.  This is where nice people give others the benefit of the doubt, and less nice people become smug judgmental asshats.
 
2013-09-17 03:08:32 PM  

bborchar: Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: It's simple: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline.

Oh yes, I forgot, the plural of anecdote is data!

// ...

Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Depends on the kid. Some kids respond well to corporal punishment. Some don't. It takes effort on the part of the parent to find what works on the kid. Once found though it should be applied fairly and consistently, and time should be taken to inform the child of what actions incur what consequences. The consequences may be variable depending on the undesired behavior.

What it should not be is appeasement. Appeasement for bad behavior is not punishment, it's capitulation. It sets a bad precedent that a child will notice and take advantage of with surprising regularity. Appeasement should only happen for good behavior as a reward.

Failing to do anything is also a poor method. Apathy is only slightly less ineffective than appeasement for bad behavior.

Teach them that there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and that acceptable behavior is rewarded and unacceptable behavior is punished. Then be consistent about enforcing both of those results.

But as I said: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline. Which also applies to kid + reward + consistency.

No kid responds well to corporal punishment.  THAT'S lazy parenting.  "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!"  And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.  Consistency and rewards important, and if you consistently say "No, we have to finish the grocery shopping before we leave", you teach the kid that crying and throwing a temper tantrum doesn't get them out of doing something they don't want to do.  Rewarding them afterwards is also very important, because then they learn that if they put up with an activity they don't want, they get to do something they do want to ...


I think you are mistaken, and also misconstrue the intention and methodology I mean to convey.

No punishment, corporal or otherwise, should be undertaken without significant communication with the child about what the punishment is and why it's done, nor should it be engaged in by the parent in anger or out of a desire for mere domination. It should be done with empathy, compassion, a desire to teach discipline, and first and foremost with love for the child well in mind.

If you beat or spank your kid just because you're pissed off, you've made a grievous mistake.

Also I did mention that I consider it merely one tool, and not always the right tool in previous posts. Maybe you didn't notice.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I very much doubt either of us will change the others mind.
 
2013-09-17 03:10:37 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool. My primary point was that consistency is key.


Consistency is key, but corporal punishment is pretty much considered ineffective for long term discipline. At 5, you remember getting hit, not why you got hit.
 
2013-09-17 03:11:22 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: [farktardery] What's your next trick?


It involves a time machine and a condom. If all goes well, you won't be around to see it!
 
2013-09-17 03:11:43 PM  

safeforwork: GoldSpider: Something tells me that many of these parents who want you to "just deal with" their shrieking crotchfruit have a slightly different opinion on second-hand smoke.

And in the reverse: I know for a fact that MANY (by many I mean among my own experiences) 'anti child' people are perfectly okay smoking in public, or drinking and driving, or throwing their own temper tantrums, and expect everyone to 'just deal with it'


Thread over!
 
2013-09-17 03:12:33 PM  
I don't know, I think it's important to teach a child at an early age that beating a smaller person into submission is an excellent way of getting what you want. Just don't you do that to a fellow student or that's bullying.

the point->
you


I dunno. i thought it was funny.
 
2013-09-17 03:13:43 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: It's simple: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline.

Oh yes, I forgot, the plural of anecdote is data!

// ...

Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Depends on the kid. Some kids respond well to corporal punishment. Some don't. It takes effort on the part of the parent to find what works on the kid. Once found though it should be applied fairly and consistently, and time should be taken to inform the child of what actions incur what consequences. The consequences may be variable depending on the undesired behavior.

What it should not be is appeasement. Appeasement for bad behavior is not punishment, it's capitulation. It sets a bad precedent that a child will notice and take advantage of with surprising regularity. Appeasement should only happen for good behavior as a reward.

Failing to do anything is also a poor method. Apathy is only slightly less ineffective than appeasement for bad behavior.

Teach them that there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and that acceptable behavior is rewarded and unacceptable behavior is punished. Then be consistent about enforcing both of those results.

But as I said: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline. Which also applies to kid + reward + consistency.

No kid responds well to corporal punishment.  THAT'S lazy parenting.  "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!"  And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.  Consistency and rewards important, and if you consistently say "No, we have to finish the grocery shopping before we leave", you teach the kid that crying and throwing a temper tantrum doesn't get them out of doing something they don't want to do.  Rewarding them afterwards is also very important, because then they learn that if they put up with an activity they don't want, they get to do something they d ...


No, I don't.  Beating or spanking a kid, even for a reason, is still lazy parenting which is why it's frowned upon.  If you can't hit an adult without getting charged with assault and battery, you shouldn't be able to hit a kid.  Under any circumstances.  I grew up in an abusive home, and I'll be damned if I ever lay a finger on my children for any reason whatsoever.  There's always a better way.
 
2013-09-17 03:17:43 PM  

Joe USer: Agent Smiths Laugh: If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool. My primary point was that consistency is key.

Consistency is key, but corporal punishment is pretty much considered ineffective for long term discipline. At 5, you remember getting hit, not why you got hit.


Not if your parent doesn't take the time to explain it to you, no. Hence my emphasis on communication.

forever_blowing_bubbles: Agent Smiths Laugh: [farktardery] What's your next trick?

It involves a time machine and a condom. If all goes well, you won't be around to see it!


Good luck with that. My current time machine involves a plan to eradicate the Nazis regime (and Stalin if I'm on a roll). Hopefully you'll give me enough lead time to complete that initiative before enacting your plan.

Careful though, we might establish a paradox if we do this wrong.
 
2013-09-17 03:40:45 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: Joe USer: Agent Smiths Laugh: If you're referring to my comments understand that I consider corporal punishment merely one of the tools in the toolbox, not the only tool. My primary point was that consistency is key.

Consistency is key, but corporal punishment is pretty much considered ineffective for long term discipline. At 5, you remember getting hit, not why you got hit.

Not if your parent doesn't take the time to explain it to you, no. Hence my emphasis on communication.

forever_blowing_bubbles: Agent Smiths Laugh: [farktardery] What's your next trick?

It involves a time machine and a condom. If all goes well, you won't be around to see it!

Good luck with that. My current time machine involves a plan to eradicate the Nazis regime (and Stalin if I'm on a roll). Hopefully you'll give me enough lead time to complete that initiative before enacting your plan.

Careful though, we might establish a paradox if we do this wrong.


Dammit, every noob with a time machine goes back and tries to kill Hitler. Please read IATT Bulletin 1147 regarding the killing of Hitler!!!
http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory
- SilverFox316
 
2013-09-17 03:40:51 PM  

bborchar: No, I don't. Beating or spanking a kid, even for a reason, is still lazy parenting which is why it's frowned upon. If you can't hit an adult without getting charged with assault and battery, you shouldn't be able to hit a kid. Under any circumstances. I grew up in an abusive home, and I'll be damned if I ever lay a finger on my children for any reason whatsoever. There's always a better way.


First let me say I'm sorry you did, nobody should have to endure that. However, I think you may be projecting your pain onto anything that even remotely resembles your negative experience. But that is understandable, and very human, and I can't fairly condemn you for it if true.

As for your other points. We as adults accept the risk of corporal response in our daily lives. Yes, you can't assault another person without risk of being arrested. You also can't do it without taking a real chance of having the police use physical force on you in return. You also can't attack someone without accepting the risk that you may be the one who gets hurt. So we, as adults accept that there are certain misdeeds that may very well carry a threat of physical harm, but you're saying we can't teach our kids that?

You may not like it, but pain instructs, and the threat of pain is a strong incentive. Why exactly do you think you have pain receptors in your body? Evolution certainly isn't holding back.

Just because you say it's lazy parenting doesn't make it so. It's merely your opinion. I think that reasonable, controlled, rational, compassionate use of corporal punishment can be responsible parenting. We will likely continue to disagree on that point.

But that said, I'm sorry you were abused. That sucks. I don't know anything about your circumstances, or how it was perpetrated, and its a shame if your parent(s) didn't know how to punish responsibly.
 
2013-09-17 03:46:56 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: Allen. The end.: That's also quite the lack of understanding a social contract. "Ain't my fault, ain't my problem!" Nice to know you live in a farking bubble. So please stay in it, otherwise you'll meet people in a society, and when none of them are your 'fault' or 'problem', they might begin to think that it's you, in fact, that can't be trusted to behave.

My comment was directed specifically at forever_blowing_bubbles. Are you telling me that I'm somehow responsible for him/her now?


You are responsible for what you write online. Don't behave badly in public and expect to be treated like the adults. Funny how that comes around, isn't it?
 
2013-09-17 03:51:17 PM  
I have to agree with the side that thinks corporal punishment is never appropriate and is counter-productive.

You can talk and explain it to your kid all you want, but at the end of the day, the kid is going to come away having learned that:

1) Authority is based not on experience, age, or respect, but ultimately on the ability to inflict violence and pain;
2) The threat of violence and pain is an effective way of controlling those smaller and weaker than you and getting them to do what you want;
3) Ultimately it undermines your own credibility when you try to teach your kids that its not appropriate to hit or hurt other people.  It's sending mixed messages.
 
2013-09-17 03:59:12 PM  

Tat'dGreaser: I don't understand people who hate children so much. You do know you were that screaming a-hole at one point in your life right?


Problem is that some of them still are screaming a-holes.
 
2013-09-17 03:59:59 PM  
My other parenting CSS.

My parents pulled the plug on the cable TV during the summer. At the end of one summer (I was 13 I think) I made the mistake of smarting off to my father, whose response was to leave the TV off.

They turned the cable back on this year. I'm thirty.

/of neutral opinion on spanking, thinks grounding to chores is just as effective
//spanking is over in thirty seconds. Two months of doing dishes? Oh ugh.
 
2013-09-17 04:02:06 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: No, I don't. Beating or spanking a kid, even for a reason, is still lazy parenting which is why it's frowned upon. If you can't hit an adult without getting charged with assault and battery, you shouldn't be able to hit a kid. Under any circumstances. I grew up in an abusive home, and I'll be damned if I ever lay a finger on my children for any reason whatsoever. There's always a better way.

First let me say I'm sorry you did, nobody should have to endure that. However, I think you may be projecting your pain onto anything that even remotely resembles your negative experience. But that is understandable, and very human, and I can't fairly condemn you for it if true.

As for your other points. We as adults accept the risk of corporal response in our daily lives. Yes, you can't assault another person without risk of being arrested. You also can't do it without taking a real chance of having the police use physical force on you in return. You also can't attack someone without accepting the risk that you may be the one who gets hurt. So we, as adults accept that there are certain misdeeds that may very well carry a threat of physical harm, but you're saying we can't teach our kids that?

You may not like it, but pain instructs, and the threat of pain is a strong incentive. Why exactly do you think you have pain receptors in your body? Evolution certainly isn't holding back.

Just because you say it's lazy parenting doesn't make it so. It's merely your opinion. I think that reasonable, controlled, rational, compassionate use of corporal punishment can be responsible parenting. We will likely continue to disagree on that point.

But that said, I'm sorry you were abused. That sucks. I don't know anything about your circumstances, or how it was perpetrated, and its a shame if your parent(s) didn't know how to punish responsibly.


What's an acceptable way to hit a kid?  When is there no alternative to hitting the kid?  What does it really teach them?  Why not teach them to respect you instead of fear you?
 
2013-09-17 04:26:23 PM  

JuniorII: ciberido: earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

Actually, yes, she does.  Deal with it.

She can get the fark off the bus......


That is true, in some cases, and in the interest of being a reasonable person willing to compromise, there are times when maybe she should be the one to inconvenience herself, rather than expect the kid's parents to change or do things differently.

I don't see it as the kind of thing where one side is always clearly in the wrong,  There are badly-behaved kids, there are parents who don't do what they should to prevent/control their kids poor behavior, and there are people who are unreasonably touchy/demanding in the expectations of how everyone around them should behave.
 
2013-09-17 04:26:34 PM  

earthwirm: GoldSpider: Something tells me that many of these parents who want you to "just deal with" their shrieking crotchfruit have a slightly different opinion on second-hand smoke.

Yes, because children cause cancer.


Hearing damage is a real (and common) thing. Look it up. If you have the right to negatively affect my health then why shouldn't I light up and do the same to you?
 
2013-09-17 04:30:54 PM  
Kid causing a commotion? The only rational adult response is to cause a counter-commotion about the commotion.

Good thinking, rational, adult-like person; way to take the higher ground and show them what's up!
 
2013-09-17 04:31:08 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: supayoda: Kristoph57: This is gonna be good when the "my kids are angels" crowd shows up.

Those are usually the ones with the worst behaved kids, in my experience, because you can't correct a problem if you are oblivious to it. I have a niece who is a prime example. She's generally a spoiled bully. Gets what she wants and orders other kids around. Her mom will look you in the eye dead serious and tell you that she's never had a problem with her. That little terror is eight years old and STILL throws tantrums whenever she doesn't get what she wants-- and Mom gives in to them.

They rationalize any bad behaviors as "well of course she does that, she's got X syndrome." Or, "you must have put factory processed wheat in your cookies, she never does that with my organic, cruelty-free, Peruvian K'khabba-grain cookies."


Now I want some organic, cruelty-free, Peruvian K'khabba-grain cookies, damn you.

I bet they taste better than Yo Gabba Gabba cookies.
 
2013-09-17 04:35:41 PM  

bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.


Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".
 
2013-09-17 04:39:15 PM  

bborchar: What's an acceptable way to hit a kid?  When is there no alternative to hitting the kid?  What does it really teach them?  Why not teach them to respect you instead of fear you?


My anecdotal life experiences say your anecdotal life experiences are wrong. That probably means you're stoopid.
 
2013-09-17 04:42:14 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: Agent Smiths Laugh: bborchar: It's simple: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline.

Oh yes, I forgot, the plural of anecdote is data!

// ...

Okay, now what is the punishment that every parent should use on every child that works every time no matter what age or temperament or gender they are?

Depends on the kid. Some kids respond well to corporal punishment. Some don't. It takes effort on the part of the parent to find what works on the kid. Once found though it should be applied fairly and consistently, and time should be taken to inform the child of what actions incur what consequences. The consequences may be variable depending on the undesired behavior.

What it should not be is appeasement. Appeasement for bad behavior is not punishment, it's capitulation. It sets a bad precedent that a child will notice and take advantage of with surprising regularity. Appeasement should only happen for good behavior as a reward.

Failing to do anything is also a poor method. Apathy is only slightly less ineffective than appeasement for bad behavior.

Teach them that there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and that acceptable behavior is rewarded and unacceptable behavior is punished. Then be consistent about enforcing both of those results.

But as I said: kid + punishment + consistency = discipline. Which also applies to kid + reward + consistency.

No kid responds well to corporal punishment.  THAT'S lazy parenting.  "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!"  And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.  Consistency and rewards important, and if you consistently say "No, we have to finish the grocery shopping before we leave", you teach the kid that crying and throwing a temper tantrum doesn't get them out of doing something they don't want to do.  Rewarding them afterwards is also very important, because then they learn that if they put up with an activity they don't want, they get to do something they d ...


Not that I entirely agree with all you have said, but I do agree with the idea that all punishment should be done with compassion and purpose.  Like I've said since my first born was a few months old.  If, as a parent, your heart doesn't break on a regular basis, you are doing it wrong.
 
2013-09-17 04:52:54 PM  

fredklein: bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.

Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".


Police arresting someone ≠ the same as police beating someone.
The IRS demanding your taxes ≠ the same as the government sending thugs to beat you when you don't pay up.

And in both of your examples, there are laws against brutalizing the suspect/tax avoider.  Or are you saying that they SHOULD be able to beat them to make them learn their lesson?
 
2013-09-17 04:53:23 PM  
Yes, let's all stop having kids so our species will just end. That way everyone will be happy.
 
2013-09-17 05:00:12 PM  

bborchar: fredklein: bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.

Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".

Police arresting someone ≠ the same as police beating someone.
The IRS demanding your taxes ≠ the same as the government sending thugs to beat you when you don't pay up.

And in both of your examples, there are laws against brutalizing the suspect/tax avoider.  Or are you saying that they SHOULD be able to beat them to make them learn their lesson?


In any case, I never said you can't punish your children at all...I said that there are ways other than hitting them.  Grounding them?  Sure.  Time-outs?  Go ahead.  Taking away possessions?  Okay.  Making them do something they don't want to do?  Of course.  I've done all of those at one time or another, and they worked.  But I've yet to find a good reason for anyone should raise their hand to their child.
 
2013-09-17 05:05:12 PM  

Bslim: Keep your filthy crotchfruit at home.


No.

GoldSpider: Something tells me that many of these parents who want you to "just deal with" their shrieking crotchfruit have a slightly different opinion on second-hand smoke.


No, I pretty much feel like you should have to just deal with my second hand smoke too.
 
2013-09-17 05:09:20 PM  

Falstaff: I can tell you don't shop at Wal-Mart on weekends...


I can't shop at Wal-mart without leaving the country. We don't let them in here.
 
2013-09-17 05:15:08 PM  

bborchar: bborchar: fredklein: bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.

Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".

Police arresting someone ≠ the same as police beating someone.
The IRS demanding your taxes ≠ the same as the government sending thugs to beat you when you don't pay up.

And in both of your examples, there are laws against brutalizing the suspect/tax avoider.  Or are you saying that they SHOULD be able to beat them to make them learn their lesson?

In any case, I never said you can't punish your children at all...I said that there are ways other than hitting them.  Grounding them?  Sure.  Time-outs?  Go ahead.  Taking away possessions?  Okay.  Making them do something they don't want to do?  Of course.  I've done all of those at one time or another, and they worked.  But I've yet to find a good reason for anyone should raise their hand to their child.


All of those are better analogies of what the police and the government do, than corporal punishment is.

You put your child in time-out, ground them, take away their toys - that is a loss of freedom and possessions.  Same as when the police detain you and the courts fine or imprison you.  Both cases are instances of the exercise of authority, not of violence.  In neither case is it appropriate for the authority to beat or physically assault the person in their custody.

Obviously the analogy is not perfect, because the police may use deadly force when necessary, in particular when a suspect is an imminent danger to them or others.  This fact is irrelevant to parenting, because it is unlikely that a parent will ever need to use violence to defend themselves from their preschooler.
 
2013-09-17 05:30:21 PM  

bborchar: fredklein: bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.

Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".

Police arresting someone ≠ the same as police beating someone.
The IRS demanding your taxes ≠ the same as the government sending thugs to beat you when you don't pay up.

And in both of your examples, there are laws against brutalizing the suspect/tax avoider.  Or are you saying that they SHOULD be able to beat them to make them learn their lesson?


You are changing what I wrote.

If spanking a child 'teaches then it's okay to hit others', then you must agree that cops handcuffing someone and taking them to the station must 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap people'.

And, yes, actually- if you don't pay, for example, property taxes, then your property can be taken from you. Eventually, they'll send cops to kick you out. And if you resist those cops, you will be 'brutalized' (Well... arrested. But any nutter that has such a huge issue with paying taxes that they take it that far would no doubt classify it as brutality.)
 
2013-09-17 05:38:58 PM  
umad:
Hearing damage is a real (and common) thing. Look it up. If you have the right to negatively affect my health then why shouldn't I light up and do the same to you?

The amazing amounts of SHEER BLINDING STUPIDITY in that statement just overwhelm the senses and have negatively affected my health.
 
2013-09-17 05:40:02 PM  

bborchar: What's an acceptable way to hit a kid?  When is there no alternative to hitting the kid?  What does it really teach them?  Why not teach them to respect you instead of fear you?


It teaches them that battery is a crime. Under certain circumstances.
 
2013-09-17 05:42:57 PM  

mike_d85: New Slang: Why punish the parent?  Just slap the kid up the back of the head or trip them when the parent is not looking

FINALLY, some rational thinking in this thread.

CSB: Ye Olde Airplane situation
So I'm on a flight (fairly short connecting one) and I have the 7 year old behind me.  Not A 7-year-old, THE 7-year-old.  The one that had his DVD player run out of batteries before we left the tarmac and started kicking the back of my seat nonstop.  Non. Stop.

So I ask the kid to stop (mostly out of politeness), then ask mom to have him stop.  "Oh, if his DVD is out of batteries there's no controlling him.  Be glad it's the only thing he's doing".  So, I ignore it for the first 30 minutes or so.  Mom has started reading and stopped talking at all.

     kid: Mom, this is BORING.  I don't have anything to do.  Mom.  MOM!
     me: hey kid, you wanna see if your double jointed?
     kid: SURE!
[snip - I had him check for hitch hikers thumb and bend his arm in impossible ways]
     me: Your'e not that flexible, I bet you cant even touch your knees to your chin.
     kid: I can so! [curls into fetal position]

I then reclined the seat and trapped him in that position.  I then put my ipod on with the volume up.  Mom tried to get the flight attendant to let me go, but she insisted that I was free to recline if I wanted to.  I only got to screw that kid over for about 15 minutes, but MAN it was worth all the biatching and moaning till the end of the flight just to punish him.


Hey, look at this thing that didn't happen.
 
2013-09-17 05:47:26 PM  

fredklein: bborchar: fredklein: bborchar: "I'll hit my kid, that'll show them who's boss!" And then you teach the kid that it's okay to hit and bully others to get their way.

Completely different circumstances.

Does the police arresting people 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap others'??
Does the IRS demanding tax money from you 'teach that it's okay to steal from others'??

Of course not- those are completely different situations.

Just like a parent (who, mind you, is legally responsible for raising the child) occasionally disciplining their child physically is completely different than "it's okay to hit and bully others".

Police arresting someone ≠ the same as police beating someone.
The IRS demanding your taxes ≠ the same as the government sending thugs to beat you when you don't pay up.

And in both of your examples, there are laws against brutalizing the suspect/tax avoider.  Or are you saying that they SHOULD be able to beat them to make them learn their lesson?

You are changing what I wrote.

If spanking a child 'teaches then it's okay to hit others', then you must agree that cops handcuffing someone and taking them to the station must 'teach that it's okay to chain up and kidnap people'.

And, yes, actually- if you don't pay, for example, property taxes, then your property can be taken from you. Eventually, they'll send cops to kick you out. And if you resist those cops, you will be 'brutalized' (Well... arrested. But any nutter that has such a huge issue with paying taxes that they take it that far would no doubt classify it as brutality.)


Even though your analogy is terrible and makes no sense, I'll answer your original question:

If your child hits another child, and you punish them by spanking them, how is that teaching them that hitting is wrong?  They are learning from you that the way to deal with a bad situation is through violence.  That's why children who are abused are often also abusive as grown ups.  They learn nothing about how to deal with their anger in a more constructive way.  The bad behavior is a symptom, not the problem.  Why did the child hit the other child?  Usually it's because they are upset about something and they don't know how to constructively convey that to the other child.  So instead of spanking them, a better way to deal with the situation is to find out why the child was angry in the first place and correct the problem.
 
2013-09-17 05:55:36 PM  

bborchar: If your child hits another child, and you punish them by spanking them, how is that teaching them that hitting is wrong?  They are learning from you that the way to deal with a bad situation is through violence


It's especially ironic given all the highly publicized new laws against bullying and all the PSAs and feature films about bullying.
 
2013-09-17 05:55:45 PM  

bborchar: In any case, I never said you can't punish your children at all...I said that there are ways other than hitting them. Grounding them? Sure. Time-outs? Go ahead. Taking away possessions? Okay. Making them do something they don't want to do? Of course. I've done all of those at one time or another, and they worked. But I've yet to find a good reason for anyone should raise their hand to their child.


And what do you suggest when the child doesn't stay grounded? (Ground them again? Double-secret probation??) Or doesn't stay in time-out?? Or refuses to do what you're trying to make them so? (oh, BTW- good job teaching them that it's okay to force others to do things they don't want to do!! They won't grow up to be a rapist or anything, I'm sure.)

Or, and here's a big one- what if they are too young to understand your reasoned explanations as to why you're making them stand in the corner? A 3-year old who tries to run away from you on the sidewalk isn't gonna 'get' why it's bad if you wait a few hours until you get home and then make them stand in the corner. But that 3-year old understands a swat to the backside: Run away= get spanked.

You run away, you get spanked. You then learn not to run away. You touch a hot stove, you feel pain. You then learn to not touch hot stoves.

How well do you think a kid would learn not to touch a hot stove, if they felt no immediate pain, but only got a lecture (and grounded) sometime next week?


Now, don't get me wrong- I certainly am not suggesting beating the kid black-and-blue because they made a simple mistake, or looked at me funny. But for serious issues, issues in which you have already tried other methods (ie: Ask them to stop. Tell them to stop. Threaten them with groundings, time out, etc....), or issues where, due to immediate danger, a direct relationship between disobedience and punishment needs to be made (ie: running into traffic- if you try to wait until you get home to put them in time-out, they'll keep running into traffic, and possibly get hurt/killed. OTOH, if you spank them right then and there, they won't try running into the street anymore. Problem solved.), then physical punishment is needed and justified.
 
2013-09-17 06:09:34 PM  

bborchar: If your child hits another child, and you punish them by spanking them, how is that teaching them that hitting is wrong?
If I tie up someone and kidnap them, and then the cops show up and handcuff me and drag me to jail, how is that teaching me that restraining people and transporting them against their will is wrong?

Since some people seem to have a problem understanding that analogy, let me make it really clear:

I restrained someone ('tied them up'), and transported them to somewhere against their will ('kidnapped them'). Then the cops come, and restrain me ('handcuff me'), and transport me somewhere against my will ('take me to jail'). The cops are doing to me/i> the same thing I did to someone else!! Gee, how ever am I to learn it is wrong, when they do the same thing to me!!?!?!!11!


That's why children who are abused are often also abusive as grown ups

Now you've changed the topic and are talking about "abuse". I'm not talking about "abuse". I'm talking about an occasional, deserved, spanking. Perhaps you consider that "abuse". I'm sure that somewhere, someone considered what you do (taking away the kids toys) to be be "abusive", too. (perhaps 'it teaches kids it's okay to steal from others'.)

So instead of spanking them, a better way to deal with the situation is to find out why the child was angry in the first place and correct the problem.

Tell me when you invent a mind-reading helmet that'll tell me what a 3-year old is thinking.

Oh, and you're assuming the kid is 'angry' about something (that can be fixed), and not just plain disobedient.

 
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