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(LA Times)   Five years after the financial crisis, let's look at the winners (corporations and rich people) and losers (human beings)   (latimes.com) divider line 39
    More: Obvious, financial crisis, index funds, American International Group Inc., Neil Barofsky, WaMu, certificates of deposit  
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2034 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Sep 2013 at 9:45 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



39 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-15 06:47:28 PM
I have it on good authority that is we just give a few more tax breaks to corporations and the top 1%, the economy will turn around in no-time.
 
2013-09-15 08:33:45 PM
farm6.staticflickr.com
 
2013-09-15 09:46:05 PM
Don't worry, the wealth will start trickling down any minute now.
 
2013-09-15 09:47:53 PM
I call dibs on letting the job creators dig through my wallet first!
 
2013-09-15 09:50:34 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Don't worry, the wealth will start trickling down any minute now.


I feel like a pee-on already.
 
2013-09-15 10:26:28 PM
Savers are indeed the biggest losers.

www.ritholtz.com
 
2013-09-15 10:37:16 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Don't worry, the wealth will start trickling down any minute now.


It's been trickling down all this time, from the über rich to the filthy rich.

Wait, did you think they meant it would trickle down to us?
 
2013-09-15 10:43:25 PM

ImpendingCynic: TofuTheAlmighty: Don't worry, the wealth will start trickling down any minute now.

It's been trickling down all this time, from the über rich to the filthy rich.

Wait, did you think they meant it would trickle down to us?


Good thing banks look out for their communities
 
2013-09-15 10:44:06 PM

HempHead: Savers are indeed the biggest losers.

[www.ritholtz.com image 850x637]


I don't think they were ever supposed to be the big winners. The winners were always supposed to be the investors, which is why the system is rigged the way it is.

What's weird is why in 20 years an entire generation allowed themselves to be duped out of their winnings? Fricking instant-gratification generation. . .
 
2013-09-15 10:49:21 PM

ImpendingCynic: TofuTheAlmighty: Don't worry, the wealth will start trickling down any minute now.

It's been trickling down all this time, from the über rich to the filthy rich.

Wait, did you think they meant it would trickle down to us?


It IS trickling down to us! A glorious shower of gold!
 
2013-09-15 10:52:31 PM

Peki: What's weird is why in 20 years an entire generation allowed themselves to be duped out of their winnings? Fricking instant-gratification generation. . .


I got into the market about 3 years before the crash. I'll be 66k in the hole when I get out of college. Recently interviewed for an internship. I was turned down. Their reasoning; I didn't have the skills they were looking for. I'm in the top 10% of my class (mechanical engineering).

Clock towers are going to become very valuable real estate in the near future, especially if they're near 5 star anythings.
 
2013-09-15 11:11:07 PM
Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.
 
2013-09-15 11:26:10 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.


The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.
 
2013-09-15 11:38:35 PM

DrPainMD: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.

The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.


Yes... fear. Be afraid. Be controlled... by fear.
 
2013-09-16 01:21:36 AM

DrPainMD: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.

The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.


Listen to what you're saying:  the people with no money will be paying.  They won't, they don't have nearly enough.  One millenial can't support eight boomers, the math doesn't work.  The millenials are screwed in terms of where they would have been if the boomers hadn't been greedy asses, but they're not going to bear most of the burden because they simply can't.  There aren't enough of them and fewer kids are born every day.
 
2013-09-16 01:58:09 AM
I simply don't understand the money worship required to intentionally fark people over for personal financial gain. I don't think I ever will. I live in relative comfort as a lower middle class Canadian, while I yearn for a touch more I can't relate to the sociopathy

We, even in the troughs, live better than a large portion of the world. Some need to have much much more for some reason... I hope it's an addiction and not malicious but I'm not confident....

If ANYTHING I EVER did screwed someone out of their pension I would be racked with guilt. I suppose that's a selective trait. fark these evil assholes... Your personal wealth costs innumerable people more than you'll ever know.

Bailed out after greedy decisions.... Pure profits. I guess I'll drink.
 
2013-09-16 02:28:53 AM
When confronted with the S&L debacle, GHWB told the regulators to "Bring me heads on pikes", they did, but the memories were short (Charles Keating was pretty much `played' by Michael Milken who then used the cash to set up a junk bond empire - yeah, he served time, eventually... now he is  a philanthropist - my, my).

Nothing much has changed in the past 5 yrs.  Laundering money? No problem:   http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-banks-still - get-a-pass-from-u-s-.html

Controlling commodity markets (aluminum) - just to skim fees (not because JPM & Goldman are adding value - you do get to pay them to pay more for your beer, citizen):
http://www.banking. senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&F ileStore_id=9b58c670-f002-42a9-b673-54e4e05e876e

Citigroup's three part plutonomy `memo' is available here (2006 & it still looks lonely at the top - you can get there if you try! Unravel the magic carpet on your way there?  Fark the fabric of the Republic!):   http://pissedoffwoman.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/the-plutonomy-reports- d ownload/

Only way to kill the beast is structural:  ALL election spending has to come from a public trust fund/All lobbying of Congress must be done in utter transparency (audio/vid of ALL meetings/All other info communicated must be posted to Congress Critter's website within 24hrs of mtg/receipt of info).  That would be a start at the base.

Will probably have to wait for the next shoe to drop before heads roll.
 
2013-09-16 07:20:26 AM
And yet total silence from the American people.
 
2013-09-16 07:43:23 AM
What are you looking at?  Get back to work or I'll have you replaced!
 
2013-09-16 08:25:15 AM

Crazy Lee: When confronted with the S&L debacle, GHWB told the regulators to "Bring me heads on pikes", they did, but the memories were short (Charles Keating was pretty much `played' by Michael Milken who then used the cash to set up a junk bond empire - yeah, he served time, eventually... now he is  a philanthropist - my, my).

Nothing much has changed in the past 5 yrs.  Laundering money? No problem:   http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-banks-still - get-a-pass-from-u-s-.html

Controlling commodity markets (aluminum) - just to skim fees (not because JPM & Goldman are adding value - you do get to pay them to pay more for your beer, citizen):
http://www.banking. senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&F ileStore_id=9b58c670-f002-42a9-b673-54e4e05e876e

Citigroup's three part plutonomy `memo' is available here (2006 & it still looks lonely at the top - you can get there if you try! Unravel the magic carpet on your way there?  Fark the fabric of the Republic!):   http://pissedoffwoman.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/the-plutonomy-reports- d ownload/

Only way to kill the beast is structural:  ALL election spending has to come from a public trust fund/All lobbying of Congress must be done in utter transparency (audio/vid of ALL meetings/All other info communicated must be posted to Congress Critter's website within 24hrs of mtg/receipt of info).  That would be a start at the base.

Will probably have to wait for the next shoe to drop before heads roll.


That's what you said last time.....

I keep getting this bad boy tuned up, and everytime it's next time...
www.randyrhine.com
 
2013-09-16 08:36:43 AM

Crazy Lee: When confronted with the S&L debacle, GHWB told the regulators to "Bring me heads on pikes", they did, but the memories were short (Charles Keating was pretty much `played' by Michael Milken who then used the cash to set up a junk bond empire - yeah, he served time, eventually... now he is  a philanthropist - my, my).

Snip

Will probably have to wait for the next shoe to drop before heads roll.


The single most damaging individual to financial security in the last 50 years.  He single handedly destroyed the Defined Benefit pension system (which was significiantly over funded at the time) to earn ridiculous commissions.  He is the one that started us on the path we are on.
 
2013-09-16 08:41:27 AM

AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.


Are you nuts? The American people have been biatching and screaming for years.

Problem is that's all they ever do.
/ I'm sure the next round of elections will be TOTALLY different though and people are TOTALLY going to start demanding fair compensation from their employers and they're TOTALLY going to start paying attention to markets and demand fair investment practices and a consistent set of rules that aren't rigged based on your ability to pay
// but let's TOTALLY wait for the next commercial break
 
2013-09-16 08:48:11 AM

inclemency: I live in relative comfort as a lower middle class Canadian, while I yearn for a touch more I can't relate to the sociopathy


Sociopaths exist in every community.  What makes America a weird outlier is that over the last 30 years they've restructured their economic and political landscapes to reward sociopathic behavior.
 
2013-09-16 09:02:58 AM

AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.


One nice thing about being super rich is being able to own and control the media. The rich have convinced most Americans that their problems are the fault of poor people.
 
2013-09-16 10:19:05 AM
I for one am outraged about all of this corruption.  We need to bring forth the guill....

Wait, FoxNews just posted an update on the new twerking scandal involving some teen pop princess.  I am outraged this younger generation has such loose moral standings.

Wag the dog indeed, our media is a farking disaster.
 
2013-09-16 10:33:09 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.

One nice thing about being super rich is being able to own and control the media. The rich have convinced most Americans that their problems are the fault of poor people.


And when people do try to raise their voices, they get either hosed with mace or drowned with dollars and crazies.
 
2013-09-16 10:35:57 AM

DrPainMD: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.

The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.


Just keep an eye out for the next bubble. I'm sure we can rip the Boomers retirement accounts off at least two or three more times, those suckers just can't help chasing the bubble. Find it, get in on the upside, and then short sell on the down side. Last time I held to long and only manage to leverage the downside, but hey I'm always on the look out.
 
2013-09-16 10:39:58 AM

AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.


Total silence??? Where the fark have you been since 08??? Occupy Wall Street was silence? The pissing, biatching, and moaning from Gen-X and Mellinials is silence? The election of Barack Obama, despite Carl Roves believe that he bought the election, is silence?

Just because we are not in open revolt against the system does not mean we are silent. Just because the
1%ers own the media corporations and keep us out of the news cycle does not mean we are silent. Just because demographics in large portions of the South are against us does not mean we are silent.
 
2013-09-16 10:56:55 AM
Sigh. biased article is biased. Some blanks they didn't fill in.


Winners: debtors

Record low interest rates have allowed debtors to refinance a lot of fixed rate debt and see rates on floating rate debt plummet. It's really been fortuitous for debtors.

Losers: creditors

The flip side of the coin is those who have money to invest or lend have seen returns on their capital plummet due to ridiculously low interest rates (similar to "savers" in TFA however broadened to make the point that it is people with money (ie the evil rich) who make up the majority of savers/investors/creditors).

Winners: people who were smart enough not to buy into the housing bubble. Prices dropped closer to reality, enabling these people to buy at more reasonable prices.

Losers: people who bought into the bubble in 05 06 07, either by buying a house or lending to homebuyers (banks/investors). They made a bad decision that is theirs alone and are now paying for it.

Losers: future generations who will have to pay back or service the debt we've incurred (rightly or wrongly) since the onset of the recession.
 
2013-09-16 12:04:12 PM
there will be a revolution in America soon.  I just hope I am still around when it happens
 
2013-09-16 01:41:46 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Losers: people who bought into the bubble in 05 06 07, either by buying a house or lending to homebuyers (banks/investors). They made a bad decision that is theirs alone and are now paying for it.


Depends on what type of loan they took out.  If they are responsible and used a traditional 30 year fixed with a 20% down payment, yeah, they got farked in the ass, especially if they want to keep the house.  That down payment is toast, and chances are their house payments were much higher that what they could have rented a similiar place for.

However, if they used a zero down neg am bullshiat loan, they made out like a bandit.  No down payment, their payments were probably less than rent for a similiar place, and if they want to walk away, it typically takes two years before the bank forecloses, during which time they basically get free rent.

Now, the bank itself is farked either way, more so in the second scenario.  But the home "owner" in the second scenario saved tens of thousands of dollars in rent with the only cost being a hit to their credit rating.
 
2013-09-16 01:44:11 PM
Oh, almost forgot-if they wanted to push things even further, they could have taken out cash out of the house via "home improvement" second loans, which also can be walked away from.
 
2013-09-16 02:03:19 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Sigh. biased article is biased. Some blanks they didn't fill in.


Winners: debtors

Record low interest rates have allowed debtors to refinance a lot of fixed rate debt and see rates on floating rate debt plummet. It's really been fortuitous for debtors.

Losers: creditors

The flip side of the coin is those who have money to invest or lend have seen returns on their capital plummet due to ridiculously low interest rates (similar to "savers" in TFA however broadened to make the point that it is people with money (ie the evil rich) who make up the majority of savers/investors/creditors).

Winners: people who were smart enough not to buy into the housing bubble. Prices dropped closer to reality, enabling these people to buy at more reasonable prices.

Losers: people who bought into the bubble in 05 06 07, either by buying a house or lending to homebuyers (banks/investors). They made a bad decision that is theirs alone and are now paying for it.

Losers: future generations who will have to pay back or service the debt we've incurred (rightly or wrongly) since the onset of the recession.


Losers: People who tried to keep to themselves and bought only what they had earned and are now forced to pay for those who made the bad decisions.
 
2013-09-16 02:50:58 PM
What about those of us who had a down payment, were ready to buy, looked at the price of houses, said "fark that" and then had to spend the money anyway when the shiatty economy caught up to us? Are we winners because we had the money to spend or losers because we got assed raped by the Corps?
 
2013-09-16 03:19:31 PM

Geotpf: Debeo Summa Credo: Losers: people who bought into the bubble in 05 06 07, either by buying a house or lending to homebuyers (banks/investors). They made a bad decision that is theirs alone and are now paying for it.

Depends on what type of loan they took out.  If they are responsible and used a traditional 30 year fixed with a 20% down payment, yeah, they got farked in the ass, especially if they want to keep the house.  That down payment is toast, and chances are their house payments were much higher that what they could have rented a similiar place for.

However, if they used a zero down neg am bullshiat loan, they made out like a bandit.  No down payment, their payments were probably less than rent for a similiar place, and if they want to walk away, it typically takes two years before the bank forecloses, during which time they basically get free rent.

Now, the bank itself is farked either way, more so in the second scenario.  But the home "owner" in the second scenario saved tens of thousands of dollars in rent with the only cost being a hit to their credit rating.


If every purposeful scammer/flipper is accounted for (if the originators had had to hold the paper - the loans would never have been made - but let's ignore that), there would have been a downturn in the market - not a flush out.  After 2004, there was a rapidly shrinking pool of those qualified for 30 yr. loans.  Of course, by that time,  Lehman's Alt-A; mortgage mill, Aurora had been up and running for three years (nice when one controls the appraisers/underwriters).  Aurora was only a template for the rest (unregulated originators feeding the shiat upstream).

Important to note that there is NO government law/reg. that has ever required anyone to write a shiatty mortgage (Fred/Fan's dipping into the shiatty paper had more to do with tweaking the compensation of the executives of those GSE's than covering paper to the `undeserving' - or forcing other originators to pen shiat).  The problem was in the unregulated sector (of course).  However, Greenspan could have stopped the game in its tracks by exercising his authority under the 1994 HOEPA:   http://apps.americanbar.org/buslaw/committees/CL130000pub/newsletter/ 2 00708/natter.pdf

The smartest guys in the room sought out/created the riskiest, swept the risk under the table, took as much off the table as was possible (without jinxing the game too early - `AIG will eat it...') before the flood and then continue to float along on future taxpayer's subsidized interest rates.  And, continue to point the finger at the useful idiots that they signed-up to feed the pool.

It is interesting to note that every Repub. House proposed budget, since 2010, has denied any increase in spending for IT/PERS for any bank regulatory agency funded in full/part by Congress.  Keep it behind the curtain where it belongs, right??

/wanna kill a snake?  Cut off its head don't bother with the tail
 
2013-09-16 07:09:48 PM

Slaves2Darkness: AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.

Total silence??? Where the fark have you been since 08??? Occupy Wall Street was silence? The pissing, biatching, and moaning from Gen-X and Mellinials is silence? The election of Barack Obama, despite Carl Roves believe that he bought the election, is silence?

Just because we are not in open revolt against the system does not mean we are silent. Just because the
1%ers own the media corporations and keep us out of the news cycle does not mean we are silent. Just because demographics in large portions of the South are against us does not mean we are silent.


If you are not in open revolt, you are silent.
 
2013-09-17 07:06:02 AM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: DrPainMD: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.

The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.

Listen to what you're saying:  the people with no money will be paying.  They won't, they don't have nearly enough.  One millenial can't support eight boomers, the math doesn't work.  The millenials are screwed in terms of where they would have been if the boomers hadn't been greedy asses, but they're not going to bear most of the burden because they simply can't.  There aren't enough of them and fewer kids are born every day.


No, you listen to what I'm saying. I never said that Gen X and Y have no money; I said that they have practically no savings. And, it doesn't matter how much money they have. Those who produce will provide for those who don't, and Gen X and Y will be the producers. It can't be any other way; only producers can provide for non-producers. You could structure it as a corporate tax, and pretend that you're sticking it to the man, but the Gen X and Y workers are still going to have their standards of living gutted to pay for it. And then, after a lifetime of having the fruits of their labor taken from them and given to others, they'll retire with nothing.
 
2013-09-17 07:08:02 AM

The_Time_Master: DrPainMD: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Corporations have more cash on their books than ever in history.  What's funny is that they think they're going to get to keep it.  Once the baby boomers retire en masse and start voting themselves more benefits, the clawbacks in taxes and fees on corporations is going to be nuts.  Those boomers will demand support and the only group with the cash to provide it is the corporations.  Taxes were a dirty word when boomers were in their prime earning years.  Once the majority of them retire and are no longer paying income tax,  taxes will go through the roof.

The wealth transfer to fund the boomers' retirements will come from the young. The GenXers and GenYers, who are, overall, saving practically nothing, will be the ones paying. The boomers may be screwed, but the next two generations are going to be totally reamed.

Yes... fear. Be afraid. Be controlled... by fear.


I'm not afraid. I'm right at the tail end of the Boomers, and I've provided for my retirement very well. I'll be one of those geezers you see driving around in a half-million dollar motor home, seeing the country and living the good life.
 
2013-09-17 07:09:18 AM

skozlaw: AngryDragon: And yet total silence from the American people.

Are you nuts? The American people have been biatching and screaming for years.

Problem is that's all they ever do.
/ I'm sure the next round of elections will be TOTALLY different though and people are TOTALLY going to start demanding fair compensation from their employers and they're TOTALLY going to start paying attention to markets and demand fair investment practices and a consistent set of rules that aren't rigged based on your ability to pay
// but let's TOTALLY wait for the next commercial break


This is what happens when you vote for Democrats or Republicans.
 
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